Pence: Build More Statues Instead Of Taking Down Confederate Monuments

[Stuart G]

Source: Talking Points Memo

By Esme Cribb Published August 22, 2017 10:19 am

Vice President Mike Pence on Tuesday said he would rather build more monuments to tell the whole story of America than tear down Confederate monuments in public spaces.

On Fox and Friends, Pence said the decision to keep or take down the monuments should always be a local decision, and with regard to the U.S. capital should be state decisions.

But Im someone who believes in more monuments, not less monuments, he said. What we ought to do is we ought to remember our history. But we also ought to celebrate the progress that weve made since that history.

Pence said communities can have conversations about what displays happen.

We ought to be celebrating the men and women who have helped our nation move toward a more perfect union and tell the whole story of America, he said. What we have to walk away from is a desire by some to erase parts of our history just in the name of some contemporary political cause.


Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/pence-confederate-monuments-build-more-statues-instead

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[Botany]

1. IOW Trump and I support our racist base.

" ... communities can have conversations ... "

Conversations about people who fought to end the United States so that people
can keep dark skinned human beings as slaves.

[BumRushDaShow]

2. The fake history of the U.S. that they created through those Confederate "monuments"

(that were erected to herald the era of Jim Crow and topple the last vestiges of Reconstruction) need to be moved to some museum as an odd curiosity of the Civil War era. They don't belong on public property LET ALONE on any property in the original "Union" states.

They are balking at the removals because these statues represent their perceived "White Supremacy" over the "savage African" who some of their kin enslaved and profited from. And despite the fact that THEY LOST that war, they still want to celebrate how bad ass they thought they were.

[Lithos]

21. Not quite true

They were erected during the time when the original veterans were dying off - 1890 to 1920. The Jim Crow era started immediately post-reconstruction.

What happened is people wanted to commemorate the local war dead and veterans who were dying off. Groups such as the United Daughters of the Confederacy used the opportunity and their funds to fill this need and in so doing added their own messages to this to promote their Lost Cause agenda. They memorials were erected for the dead and dying; those who used this opportunity with funds, added a "Lost Cause" revisionism.

Ostensibly these memorials, particularly those at battlefields and courthouses, are no different than those erected for other wars. And for the same reasons people wanted to memorialize and give some meaning to those from the local area who are dead. Remember most of those who fought for the South did so not because of the defense of Slavery, but because they were either conscripted or defending their home area (militia and/or called up because of FUD from the propaganda).

So, they are balking because many do not see these as "racist", but as a mechanism to honor the dead. The pain and desire to remember the many thousands of dead is a real thing. What is unusual here is there was a group who used this grief and pain to add in their revisionism. It was a very powerful sentiment they tied in with. To immediately try and discard this memory of their ancestors with blanket statements about the dead being a traitor and racist misses the reality in a huge manner as for many who fought for the South, the war came to them.

Note: Not saying the war was not about Slavery - it definitely was, the politicians and monied people needed to perpetuate this evil institution. People knew this was what the war was about - the point is it was also not enough to get people to fight. Conscription came to the South in 1862 with most of the men who entered the Southern ranks coming from this mechanism. Others were called up as part of various militia recalls. For the vast majority, the war came to them, they did not go to the war.

So, remove the memorials as they are tainted with bigoted revisionism, but don't go making blanket assumptions as to the meaning people have with them. There is no need to politicize the dead any further.

[BumRushDaShow]

28. They put those "memorials" in public squares

and state Houses, and even in the U.S. Capitol and in parks & churches in the north. No matter WHERE some "Confederate" ilk set foot. And the effect, as a number of folks have noted, was like placing statues of Hitler and Mengele around Europe after WWII.

I'm sick of people apologizing for this bullshit. For those blacks terrorized in the south, it was an in-your-face reminder of who was "in charge" - notably the statues that have been most discussed - the ones of Lee & Jackson. Take them OFF public property, out of state capitol buildings, and put them in cemeteries.

And that mess on Stone Mountain, where black men were lynched and crosses were burned, needs to be dynamited off.

[brush]

37. Spot on. They are monuments to traitors witn an added purpose...

of remind AAs to stay their place.

No wordy, shameful paeans of justification needed.

Get rid of them.

Put them in a museum or warehouse, anywhere but in the public square.

The traitors lost the war.

We SHOULD NOT be honoring traitors.

It's way past time the country confronted and dealt with this issue.

[SunSeeker]

39. +1

[SunSeeker]

38. Not quite true.

These memorials were not memorializing the dead. They were glorifying the Confederacy and Confederate generals, i.e. those who sent Confederate soldiers to their deaths.

[Lithos]

41. You are thinking of different memorials

The ones in Charlottesville and the ones removed from the University of Texas of individuals were/are exactly as you described. No arguments there.

Those in the court houses are a lot like those at the actual battlefields - they are dedicated to specific people from the county who fought.

see:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/courthouselover/24066124134

(not my picture)

[SunSeeker]

45. Your example is one of glorification, not sorrow. And why at the Courthouse?

Other than to tell African Americans they will get no justice there...

[Lithos]

46. Was not unique to the Civil War

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~kymontgo/Military.html
http://www.rmtci.com/CWMM_KS/Clay-county.html

Cemeteries and Courthouses are a common place for memorials to veterans. I used to take long weekends driving around looking at both cemeteries and courthouses as I liked the architecture and history. The latter link includes a Union Civil War memorial that looks very similar in structure to many in the South. The only difference was that it was likely the Daughters of the Confederacy paid for the one in the South and in so doing coopted things by adding a revisionist spin to the text.

[SunSeeker]

47. No one is attacking memorials at cemeteries, just on PUBLIC PROPERTY.

When Confederate memorials are on public property, it implies the government supports the Confederate cause, particularly since NONE of these monuments say the Confederate cause was bad.

[Lithos]

49. I am explaining just why it was

There was no conspiracy as to their location. The same type of memorials exist in cemeteries and the location is common to both. However, I do agree they do not belong in today's society.

[SunSeeker]

53. No, that is NOT why it was. It was to intimidate African Americans.

It was never "common" to glorify traitors on public property. These monuments went up in two major surges: (1) in the early 1900's -1920s, at the height of Jim Crow segregation and KKK activity, and then (2) in the 1960s, in reaction to the Civil Rights movement.


https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/479751/

[SunSeeker]

48. And it is very "unique" for the government to memorialize TRAITORS. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. The UDC explicitly acknowledged white supremacy.

There are no statues of Rommel or Guderian in Germany; neither are there statues memorialising the heroic sacrifice of the ordinary German soldier in WWII. I don't see monuments and memorials to the Confederacy as being any different (except the South never underwent any kind of 'de-Confederization').

[Lithos]

55. There are memorials

They took some of the WW1 memorials and added the names of those from WW2.


https://www.google.de/search?q=gedenkstein+ww2&client=firefox-a&hs=YmU&rls=org.mozilla:de fficial&channel=fflb&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Ow-MVZSVHcbxUr-ggLgP&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=1129

[Spider Jerusalem]

56. Which is hardly the same thing

[Lithos]

57. These mimic a lot of what I remember seeing at courthouses/cemeteries

Basically a generic memorial with a list of names - maybe a unit name.

Again, I am differentiating these from such as Charlottesville or at a State Capital where they are dedicated towards individuals.

[50 Shades Of Blue]

3. Like something Vice President Frank Drebin would say.

[jalan48]

4. Because, the people who were enslaved were equally responsible for the problem. Got it.

[Yonnie3]

5. Here in Charlottesville we could ...

Last edited Tue Aug 22, 2017, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

put statues of slaves in chains in front of the Lee statue although I'm not sure Traveler would approve. Mister Pence, would you contibute?

My education (indoctrination) in Virginia grammar school (late 50s) about the "heroes of the South" was such that I will never forget the name of the noble steed that Lee rode. I believed the lies. Not any more.

[DetlefK]

6. So... more monuments depicting the horrors of slavery?

"In memory of the slaves whose labor kept the Confederate States of America running.
In memory of the Confederate States of America who enslaved, tortured, raped and killed them instead of treating them as fellow human beings."

[greymattermom]

9. So every city where there were slaves should build

a museum like the one in Cincinnati. It's an excellent place to learn about slavery and the underground railroad. Infrastructure money could be spent on these projects.
http://www.freedomcenter.org

[bronxiteforever]

14. This and more this!

[Lithos]

24. Agreed

I also think adding in the German idea of stoperstein's (stumbling blocks) which help are placed at the locations where slave markets, lynchings, and places of residence.

[BumRushDaShow]

33. Most if not all major cities already have an African American History museum

The problem is that unlike these Confederate statues, those museums are not in "public parks" nor are outside and/or inside state/federal government buildings, which are where many more people congregate.

In essence, the monuments for the oppressed are "segregated" from public view, and in many cases, you have to pay to see them. Where in this case, there is no cost to view the oppressors because they are prominently displayed in public places.

We had a HUGE battle to include the more accurate story of George Washington & John Adams here in Philadelphia when a monument was being developed for the original "President's House" (mansion), that served as the first "White House" for 10 years (and 2 Presidents) while the White House in D.C. was being built.

Washington had 9 slaves working in the house and carted them back and forth to Virginia every 6 months because slavery had been banned here in PA.







http://www.ushistory.org/presidentshouse/index.php

This is right across the street from Independence Hall and adjacent to the building housing the Liberty Bell and the 3rd pic shows the names of the 9 enslaved workers who lived and toiled there carved on one side of the site (adjacent to the passage to their quarters).

[geek tragedy]

42. I'd be on board with that, along with memorials to the civil rights struggle, etc nt

[Clarity2]

7. What an idiot

The 1950s wants their Pence back.

"contemporary political cause" - yeah it's called progression, as in "to progress", as in "to change for the better as a society".

Book recommendation: The Power of Now, so they can all stop living in the past, where bigotry lived.

Monuments are for paying tribute. People on the wrong side of history belong in history books, not in a statue form.

[dalton99a]

8. The mild-mannered snake is trying to be a bigger asshole than his boss

[pangaia]

10. What a simple-minded, thoughtless, uninquisitive buffoon.

[ffr]

12. +1

...buffoon with a stupid smirk on his face.

[Aristus]

11. No surprise there.

Indiana is just Mississippi without the Spanish moss...

[LittleGirl]

19. Yeah and what I've read

Indiana will become more like Mississippi because of climate change. So double whammy.
I have lots of family in Indiana and some of them have left, like me.

[Freethinker65]

13. Let me guess-more money for giant monuments to Christianity, less money for social programs

Exactly the opposite of WWJD

[billh58]

15. Remember our history?

We don't need "monuments" to remember that the Confederacy, like the Third Reich, was made up of traitors who believed that they were a superior race, and who in the end were defeated by people of good will.

There are no good Nazis, and we don't need statues of them to remind us of that fact.

[Lithos]

26. Most of the people who died for the Confederacy

Were conscripted or called up as part of State militias.

The analogy is Nazi Germany. Yes, you had the SS who were true believers, but many were just average people who were called up and forced to fight.

L-

[billh58]

35. But it is not

the "average people" that are being memorialized is it? The "just following orders" defense was used by the Nazis as well.

[billh58]

36. "Most?"

Although most of the soldiers who fought in the American Civil War were volunteers, both sides by 1862 resorted to conscription, primarily as a means to force men to register and to volunteer. In the absence of exact records, estimates of the percentage of Confederate soldiers who were draftees are about double the 6 percent of Union soldiers who were conscripts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_Army

One side fought to secede from the United States and to protect the "right" to own slaves, and the other side fought to protect our Constitutional way of life and to end slavery.

[FakeNoose]

16. I'd favor a memorial to our American holocaust - slavery

The USA has never really done a slavery memorial but I believe it's time to do something like that.

I don't see a reason to make any statues or monuments to this "super hero" or that one. But the idea of the American Holocaust needs to be addressed. It's sure to be fraught with emotion on both sides though. Remember how controversial the Vietnam Memorial (in Washington DC) was before it was built? Now that it's there, it's a truly emotional and reflective experience to visit it, but people were up in arms for years over that one.

I figure a memorial to the American Holocaust - slavery - would be 10 times more controversial.

You can bet that Mike Pence has no intention of doing something like this, but it would be meaningful.

[Lithos]

27. I think it needs to be many memorials

Needs to be something you can drive kids to see else it becomes too distant. Maybe also a traveling one - sort of like they did for the Vietnam memorial.

L-

[Cold War Spook]

40. A Slavery memorial

would be a place where some people could come to learn and of course others could come to think about the good old days.

[FakeNoose]

44. No it shouldn't be called that

It should be called the American Holocaust Memorial.

[world wide wally]

17. Remind me again what Robert E Lee did to move our nation to be a "more perfect Union"

[heaven05]

18. vice repthugliKKKan

a horror like his boss and what we will have to deal with after the fall of king idiot-boypotus.

Revering people who believed the forced bondage of human beings was ones right because of Manifest Destiny and white supremacy(KKKristian inspired and sanctioned)...vice repthugliKKKan is trying the moderation route, wait until he assumes the helm of this wildly off course ship of state....his words will look and sounds good in media bytes, same course toward destruction will not be averted...fuck pence...and all of the now openly celebrated new confederacy.....the south is really trying to rise again......well didn't turn out so well last time and this time, many, many more shall be in the ranks to fight you, not just other white people with a conscience and desire to keep our democratic experiment moving forward without all the racist, bigoted, sexist driftwood. Fuck trump and pence....

[LonePirate]

20. Maybe Pence is right. Hear me out.

Maybe we should build more monuments. For every statue of a confederate, we build several statues of Union solders surrounding that traitor. We should also construct a massive plaque engraved with Article III of the Constitution that describes treason to those who fawn over those traitorous confederates.

[shawn703]

22. Probably because Republicans don't read books

They need pictures and monuments for their stories.

[left-of-center2012]

23. Coming soon, to an area near you

[Dwinal87]

25. How About We Start

With a statue of William Tecumseh Sherman in every southern state capitol? Would that be the type of statue Mr. Pence would like to build? Is that going to help "heel" this country?

[vkkv]

29. um.. NO.. We can READ about our contry's mistakes, we DO NOT HAVE TO HONOR THEM!!

STUPID FUCKING ASS-FUCK FAKE VICE-PRESIDENT.

[flibbitygiblets]

30. Let me womansplain that last sentence

"erase parts of our history"="correct the false narratives that have been perpetrated about the civil war"
"in the name of some contemporary political cause"="civil rights and anti-racism is just a fad, it will pass"

Thought experiment: Imagine that 150 years ago it was legal to kidnap white children for whatever purpose the kidnapper desired. But half the country disagreed with this practice, and the whole country went to war about it. The losing side (child kidnappers) put up a bunch of statues to preserve their "history and heritage", and your children have to walk past those statues every day, causing them constant anxiety and fear, because they know that some people still think we should go back to the "good old days" when child kidnapping was legal. Would you be cool about that scenario, Mr. Pence?

[FSogol]

31. Sorry Pence, no one will ever put up a statue to you and Mother.

[Eliot Rosewater]

32. He wants one dedicated to the doctor who allegedly proves homosexuality is a choice after

said doctor tortures thousands of gay people.

Mike Pence is literally not qualified to run the night shift at the local 7/11, FOR REAL. Even less qualified to be in any position of government.

[Sunlei]

34. well Pence how about stockpiles of gravestones for the new Republican war in Afghanistan?

[msongs]

43. pence is sad all those slave owning christians are losing their statues nt

[dembotoz]

50. would be ok with more general shermans holding books of matches....

[disalitervisum]

51. I thought trump was stupid

"I'm someone who believes in more monuments..."

WTF??!! pence will probably build a monument to the Crusades.

[Luka Boyd]

52. Yes lets celebrate progress by taking down racist statues.

lets show we have moved past it as a majority anyway