Condoleezza Rice on #MeToo: 'Let's not turn women into snowflakes'

[DonViejo]

Source: CNN




By Alexandra King, CNN

Updated 4:53 PM ET, Sat January 13, 2018

(CNN)Former US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said that while she believes the #MeToo movement is "a good thing," people need "to be a little bit careful" about how they respond to it.

"Let's not turn women into snowflakes. Let's not infantilize women," Rice insisted during an interview with CNN's David Axelrod on "The Axe Files," which airs at 7 ET Saturday night.

Rice said she didn't want "to get to a place that men start to think, 'Well, maybe it's just better not to have women around.' I've heard a little bit of that. And it, it worries me," she told Axelrod.

Following last year's downfall of Hollywood mogul Harvey Weinstein after sexual harassment and assault allegations, people have begun sharing their stories of sexual harassment and abuse, using the hashtag #MeToo.

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/13/politics/rice-metoo-axe-files-cnntv/index.html

[underpants]

1. Condi knows how to stay a member at Augusta National

That is all.

[DLevine]

3. When you call her the c word you call all women that word.

It's like calling someone the n word, or calling gays the f word. Call her what she is, a dumbass.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

4. Thank you... you beat me to it and I could not reply to a removed post.

[Squinch]

5. Great reply to the bullshit you were replying to.

Honestly, how do people not know when they are broadcasting their sexism, or their racism or their homophobia or whatever?

[Liberalagogo]

15. While "C" may be harsh

she is a self-loather.

[Ken Burch]

6. Missing the attention are we, Condi?

[irisblue]

7. She is complicent in war crimes.

Why should anyone listen to her opinions? Why is Axelrod using her on a show?

[50 Shades Of Blue]

8. Bush lies pusher says what?

[47of74]

9. Time to get this out..

[ProudLib72]

10. Condi, Newt, Alan Dershowitz

tRump has made them all relevant again. Now it is time for the MSM to make them irrelevant again by ignoring whatever asinine crap they spew.

[Stardust1]

11. That sounds pretty messed up, Rice.

"Shut up or they might punish us."
What a world...

[2naSalit]

22. +1

[Honeycombe8]

12. I think she may be talking about some of the allegations that are iffy.

Remember the one against Franken...fan female at political event wants a selfie with Franken, he obliges and with his big smile leans in so their smiling heads are next to each other? Her "sexual harassment" claim is that he put his hand around her waist & grabbed some skin there.

Some other claims were iffy such that I didn't think they should be classified with real assault or harassment claims.

Most were genuine, but I do think it was getting out of hand a bit...in some claims by a few. When the men were probably, or maybe, just behaving normally and not in a harassing way at all. This would make anyone leery of being around someone who makes such allegations. I prefer that people focus on the serious claims...like against the Weinsteins, the Hoffmans, the Spaceys of the world. Bums who used their power to prey on the vulnerable.

I think Condi may not know the definition of the slang word "snowflake" these days. But I think she was referring to the appearance of women being incapable of taking care of themselves in the business world.

This doesn't take away from the seriousness of genuine and shocking claims that seem to be true...like the careers of Ashley Judd and Mira Sorvino being ruined by Weinstein. Tragic, what he did to them and probably others.

[Lucinda]

21. +1

[Raine1967]

24. I agree.

I'm glad you said this.

I've been trying to come to terms with all of this and I think you made really good points.

[jaysunb]

36. +1 n/t

[Still Blue in PDX]

50. Yep. nt

[PatSeg]

52. I agree with what you say

There have been serious allegations about abhorrent sexual abuse, that should have been brought to light, but I began to sense a "witch hunt" mentality starting to develop awhile back and became concerned. Shortly after that my fears were confirmed by some lame allegations against Al Franken.

Overreacting to every perceived touch or suggestive remark, only sets women, as well as men back. It also serves to trivialize the very serious cases of sexual abuse such as Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby. Most women can handle an occasional unwanted flirtation and most men will back off when their overtures are rejected.

[Honeycombe8]

65. +1. nt

[GusBob]

13. "Let's turn Iraqis into ash instead". Eom

[Liberalagogo]

14. Condi

just go back to lusting after W and STFU.

[Skittles]

16. yes

REAL women pimp for nitwit presidents who start wars based on lies

[tomp]

42. Yes. What strength of womanhood she displayed!

This is why I cringe when I hear, "We need more women in politics." What we need is more righteous women in politics.

[Maeve]

47. What we need is more righteous PEOPLE in politics

We have enough craven, spineless, greedheads with no sense of the human rights of others in politcs.

[tomp]

59. agreed. nt

[llmart]

62. Or ignore warnings about an attack on the US by bin Laden....

and they go out and shop for shoes while 9/11 is happening.

STFU, Kindasleazy Rice. You don't speak for this woman.

[GoCubsGo]

63. They also go shopping for expensive designer shoes while

the president for whom they pimp lets American cities drown.

[christx30]

17. Maybe call out the harassment, but don't worry about men

punishing women. Because the problem isn't the women. It's the men that can't keep their hands to themselves or keep their minds on work. There are some very attractive women at my work. I don't avoid them. We all help each other with the tough stuff and encourage each other. But I've never had the urge or desire to flirt with anyone at all.

[hibbing]

18. She should be in jail n/t

[Chemisse]

19. I agree with her on this point, depending on where the line is drawn.

For example, I think an unwanted kiss or touch should be met with a firm shove and a hearty 'fuck you', not a lawsuit or a police report or a trip to HR (unless it happens again). We women should not be afraid to stick up for ourselves. We don't do ourselves any favors by being painted as victims.

Yes, I understand that this has not always been a successful strategy for women in the past, particularly as it relates to workplace abuse. But I think it should be a goal to strive for, not that it should never ever occur, but because we are strong and have power, that we should be able to say no and that will be enough.

[Raine1967]

25. +1

I don't think it helps us to be binary, I like what you said.

[Phoenix61]

31. No, just no

A kiss is not nothing. There is no excuse for sexual harassment and/or assault in the workplace or anywhere else. Would you say the same thing about a pinch, a slap, a punch? Someone puts their hands, lips, or any other body part on me without my express invitation they are wrong, plain and simple.

[Chemisse]

32. Did I say it was okay to do that? Of course I didn't.

Please read my post again.

[Phoenix61]

37. No, you didn't

You said she should shove him and say "Fuck You." That's not enough of a consequence. It's a start but it's not where it needs to end.

[thesquanderer]

45. It depends on the kiss.

I tend to agree with Chemisse here. A first offense of a kiss may be sufficiently answered with merely a personal rebuke, depending. How "intense" a kiss was it? Did the guy make any attempt at all to prevent the woman from ending it or pulling away? Might there have been reason for the guy to think it might have been okay, even if he was mistaken? The fact is that, even in the workplace, not *every* first kiss is unwanted, and it's possible someone just made a wrong call. That alone should not be a potential career-ender.

[Still Blue in PDX]

51. Totally agree. nt

[Irish_Dem]

55. Women should not have to curse and get physically aggressive at work or any where else

to protect themselves.

Abusers need to learn better judgement and exert self-control.

[Chemisse]

56. Yes they do need to exert self-control.

But a woman should not just stand there like a helpless victim with some guy's hand on her ass and say things like, "I just didn't know what to do!"

The more women are willing to speak up - on the spot - the less often the minor incidents will occur.

Obviously the situation is very different with serial molesters or actual rapists, and women shouldn't be expected to have to ward them off without a lot of legal and HR help.

[Irish_Dem]

57. If you start cursing or getting aggressive, the guy could pull a gun, or get violent in response.

She knows nothing about how dangerous the guy might be.
Minor incidents can escalate quickly.

And in the workplace, the woman could lose her job.

I agree women should not act like victims, but they also need to protect themselves
and use common sense. Perhaps there is a safer way to respond to unwanted
sexual advances.

But the bottom line is that the patriarchal culture needs to change.

[Chemisse]

60. I think immediate and strong responses to minor offenses,

Like yelling "Stop!" in a crowded room, would be helpful in changing the culture.

For repeated advances in the workplace, reporting it and pursuing it legally make sense. Serious attacks (as opposed to a roaming hand that can easily be aborted with a loud and embarrassing outcry) require a serious, legal response.

All these will help change the culture.

What won't help is being too timid to say "stop it" with a single, isolated dirty joke or butt touch, then bringing it to HR. That just makes us all look worse.

[Irish_Dem]

64. Is it being timid or being smart? I don't have the answer.

I agree, shouting in a crowded room may decrease the risk factor.
But she doesn't really know if the guy is violent and has a gun or knife.
If he is on drugs or mentally ill.

If she is going to yell, she needs to be running away at the same time.

I am in a line of work where you have to be very careful about giving advice
that may backfire and get someone killed or harmed.

I don't have the answer on the best thing to do.

When giving advice I tend to give people various options.
Like tools in a toolbox.
Then when they are in a bad situation then can immediately assess
which tool to use, and they must use strong intuition to evaluate
the situation carefully.

But I think the dialogue about options is good.
We need to shift the paradigm in a big way.

[samnsara]

20. if Wonder Woman is a snowflake then count me in!

[rocktivity]

23. Oh, go back to sleep, Condi

rocktivity

[Raine1967]

26. Honest question:

Does she not have a right to speak out about the #MeToo movement?

[rocktivity]

29. Honest answer: Sure she has that right. EVERYBODY does.

Last edited Sun Jan 14, 2018, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)

But -- as long as we're being honest -- WHY listen to her?


rocktivity

[shanny]

33. Everybody has the right to speak.

And everybody has the right not to listen.

I for one am not interested in anything that creature has to say.

[tomp]

43. agreed. known liar and facilitator of war crimes. nt.

[barbtries]

27. i only came here to comment

that nothing that woman says means shit to me. she should be living out her life in exile for her abysmal performance as head of the NSA enabling 911 to happen. instead she was made sec of state and gets respect she will never be able to earn from me.

when i see she's said something and it's reported in the news it triggers me.

[radhika]

28. Young women around me say much the same thing!

At the peak of the #METOO moment, I was a party with many young creative women (I'm a senior, btw). At least half were WoC. All left/liberal. Many worked in entertainment - costumers, production designers etc. or self-employed in the arts.

They were totally aligned with the women, totally believed the stories. But they saw a swarm building. Long-ago events were dredged up and tweeted. Sometimes the assault was minor (grabbing an ass at a party), or it happened years ago, did not imply abuse of power in the professional arena and had no threat of violence. Assholes and jerks. The kinds of things women have always encountered and warned each other about.

Basically,they said: 'Cmon, ladies, get real. You need to learn to stand up for yourselves. Not every little remark or insinuation is worthy of these BS dramas. Just learn how to deal with these people, and you'll be way better off in life.

We aren't snowflakes. We have big goals, and lots of power

[Chemisse]

30. +1

[Raine]

41. Yes! nt

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

34. "Snowflakes"?! Couldnt she say what she has to say without using an inflammatory, RW put-down word

Which BTW they pretty much reserve exclusively for labeling liberals/progressives.

Ms Rice may have a point, but I stop listening when someone starts flinging out putdowns and labels. Id be interested to know where she would draw the line, what qualifies as harrassment and abuse and what doesnt. Maybe that would be a conversation worth having, but she doesnt really move it forward by insulting people.

[tomp]

44. every accusation should be heard and investigated.

not all accusations have the same merit or seriousness.

the use of "snowflake" flies in the face of how difficult it has been historically for women to feel comfortable for making such accusations, and even today such accusations are not without potential negative consequences for the accuser. "snowflake" is just inappropriate in this context.

Rice is a Bushista asshole and no one should give her the time of day. .

[Kashkakat v.2.0]

61. yep, I would agree with that but my point was that perhaps it would be

useful to clarify what the new cultural norms are or should be, going forward..... and that Ms Rice's choice of words contributes nothing constructive to the conversation.

[shadowmayor]

35. War Criminal

She should have been hanged by the neck along with all the bush warmongers and neocons and dipshits who led us into an insane criminal invasion of Iraq. Why the hell is she even on TV?

[yurbud]

38. she shares responsibility for over a million deaths

[Cryptoad]

39. Who?

[Kristofer Bry]

40. Stick with football, Condi

Didn't you wanna be the NFL commissioner?

[rainlillie]

46. I agree with some of what Condi said.

Women should stand up and speak up right when it happens.. Unless their lives are in danger. My boss tried it with me once and after I made it perfectly clear that I would shout it from the rooftops if he crossed that line again, he apologized. That was my first job I was only 16 at the time. I was raised to never, ever let anyone invade my space. I'm not a fan of women who take money and then keep their mouths closed instead of warning other women. It's like if a guy molested your child and then he settles with you, but you don't warn other parents. The reason most of these guys get away with this type of stuff is because they are protected by silence.

[treestar]

48. That is as good as admitting they are still dominant

They are going to punish us by not hiring us? Screw that.

[Chemisse]

58. I doubt it would be done with the intent to punish.

I am afraid that this will happen due to fear over HR headaches over minor incidents, in addition to the more serious and severe violations. A businessperson would want to minimize the chances of lawsuits and personnel shake-ups.

Rice is certainly not the first woman to voice this concern. It was a topic discussed by several women on Morning Joe a week or so ago.

[treestar]

66. They could consider just not harassing

Last edited Mon Jan 15, 2018, 09:16 AM - Edit history (1)

And notice the implication we lie or exaggerate. Using that to justify excluding us again. Bull.

[moriah]

68. Or by not being alone with us to avoid accusations.

Seriously had a guy ask me if they'd ever given me any reason for feeling uncomfortable around him or if he'd ever harassed or treated me bsdly when we'd been colleagues.

Nope, never. Dude is pretty much so uptight about sex that a Ferris Bueller quote about coal and diamonds is appropriate -- seriously, if he ever gets the guts to approach a woman, he could probably make his own diamond if he was subjected to a mild bachelor party.

But then he said why -- he now had direct report subordinates, one female, and he didn't want to offend her accidentally OR get falsely accused. He said he was trying to be cautious, and mentioned he was avoiding ever being alone with her. But not having the same policy with his male subordinates.

I immediately had to do some education -- that kind of pariah treatment, even if intended to AVOID accusations, is detrimental to career advancement.

[treestar]

69. Right, the presumption they are going to be falsely accused

Shows an inherent misogyny. Notice we don't have women saying they are afraid to be alone with men because they might get harassed.

[moriah]

70. Yep. And in many industries management is still male-dominated.

I admit I was glad he took the time to actually ask me if he'd ever treated me badly, made me feel inferior, etc.

He hadn't, but he was probably remembering that I woke him up in the middle of the night a lot. (I worked the night shift support desk, he was a daytime onsite engineer with oncall weeks, and if a server turned into a swerver in the middle of the night.... well, it's never pleasant). And, knowing he took time to wake up, I would call him and just say "We've got a down server at the ?DC. Can you call back in a few with your ETA?" vs bombard him with details. And that I always brewed a fresh pot of coffee if a CE I called was coming in (our office was also the parts depot).

(Edit to add on chicks and coffee: I didn't take it upon myself to give that same treatment to every CE when someone else "owned" the call -- though by the time I had seniority, I often was the person "owning" those types of calls, especially if they were important to the client.

And also by that level of seniority and being the only woman, I had many kind male colleagues who took it upon themselves to refresh my coffee while I was working a call, or who would realize I didn't have time to brew for an incoming CE and do it for me, knowing it was my routine. So we were actually pretty egalitarian on coffee -- especially on the rule that the person who takes the second-to-last cup should offer the dregs to anyone who needs the concentrated burned caffeine from the Bunn, then rinse and start a new pot. Coffee was sacred.)

I did that because it was just kind -- not because I was a chick. And he thanked me for being thoughtful frequently, as did most of the others (except the Mormon, but I didn't bother with a fresh pot knowing he didn't indulge). We've remained friends since I left the company many years ago because he does have a good heart, and despite differing political views could discuss them politely vs getting into name-calling.

Yes, when he was voicing concerns about being falsely accused, the way he was rationalizing the misogyny was itself misogynistic -- yet in the "snowflake" way -- he said he was afraid a woman might feel intimidated if she was alone with a male supervisor without him meaning to.

He did at least say my suggestion to, if he was really that paranoid, keep the office door open with all of his subordinates unless they requested privacy, and keep it policy, would probably make him feel more comfortable. And he said he hadn't thought about what I said about that his very reticence to "upset" her he might be both damaging her opportunities for networking and advancement, and possibly be the very thing that she could lodge a *legitimate* complaint about, but saw my point after I pointed out how his dinners with colleagues had helped networking, and some were just him and a single higher-up.

[paleotn]

49. Rice, you're not relevant. Go away.

"to get to a place that men start to think, 'Well, maybe it's just better not to have women around. Why?! Is she saying men can't control their baser urges, thus they shouldn't include women in their work groups? How fucking stupid can she be?

As a young male, among other words of wisdom, my mom imparted to me this simple test......if it's something I wouldn't do or say if my mom were sitting in the room, chances are very good I shouldn't do it or say it. The corollary is...now that you've decided that course of action was inappropriate, why the hell did you want to say or do that in the first place? Can't you control yourself? The problem is in YOU, not the woman.

[Paladin]

53. Don't you have a warning of a hostile attack to ignore, Condi?

As if I'd pay any attention to Condi's opinions on relations between women and men.

[Ferrets are Cool]

54. Your words carry NO weight. Not in my household. You fully

supported a egotistical Monkeyboy that murdered close to a million people. So, STFU.

[moriah]

67. ''Well, maybe it's just better not to have women around.' I've heard a little bit of that."

I actually have too.

Male friend, older, conservative, introverted, uncomfortable with women in general anyway, asked me if I'd ever been made uncomfortable by him when we worked together as colleagues, because he was supervising a female and he didn't want to gst in trouble. I was glad he decided to reach out to me.

But then he said he was avoiding being alone with her at all, but not following the same policy with his male subordinates.

That I immediately had to say was counterproductive to women's careers -- you could leave the door open maybe and do that as a policy unless an employee asks for privacy, I said, if he was concerned about CYA, but no, he'd never even come close to inappropriate behavior, was definitely not a "toucher", blushed at anything remotely sexual.... he had nothing to worry about EXCEPT treating her like she's infectious by refusing to be alone with her ever but not males.

[onenote]

71. Disagree.Let's turn women into snowflakes. So many snowflakes that the resulting blizzard

buries Condi, and the rest of that rotten crew.