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FrodosNewPet

(495 posts)
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 12:57 AM Mar 2018

Arizona police release video of fatal collision with Uber self-driving SUV

Source: Reuters

Sydney Maki, Alexandria Sage / March 21, 2018 / 6:45 PM

TEMPE, Ariz./SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Police in Arizona on Wednesday released a short video of a fatal collision between an Uber self-driving vehicle and a pedestrian, as investigators probe the accident that has put new focus on the safety of autonomous vehicles.

The video, taken from inside the Volvo XC90 sport utility vehicle that Uber has used for testing, shows the vehicle driving along a dark road when an image of a woman walking a bicycle across the road suddenly appears in the headlights.

~ snip ~

“The sensors should have detected the pedestrian in this case; the cameras were likely useless but both the radars and the Lidar must have picked up the pedestrian,” said Raj Rajkumar, a professor at Carnegie Mellon.

“Though no information is available, one would have to conclude based on this video alone, that there are problems in the Uber vehicle software that need to be rectified,” he said.

~ snip ~

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-selfdriving-uber/arizona-police-release-video-of-fatal-collision-with-uber-self-driving-suv-idUSKBN1GX39A



99% of what it takes for self driving cars to drive themselves is easy. But the last 1% is a HUGE challenge. And it is THE most important part of public safety.

My fear is that more and more the bean counters and the investors will get impatient and demand premature wide scale deployment.
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Arizona police release video of fatal collision with Uber self-driving SUV (Original Post) FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 OP
Police have released the first video from inside the Uber self-driving car that killed a pedestrian FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 #1
Driving at 35mph it would take 66 feet Eko Mar 2018 #2
I think an ATTENTIVE human driver would have seen her sooner FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 #3
I am by no means someone who is against the idea of self-driving cars xor Mar 2018 #7
Uber Tempe Video Shows A Crash That Self-Driving Cars Should Be Able To Avoid -- Time For Regulation FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 #4
Dark clothes on a dark unlit street: robbob Mar 2018 #13
Should human drivers be able to avoid this as well? LanternWaste Mar 2018 #15
It doesn't appear the car reacted at all. xor Mar 2018 #17
Someone posted a link to the video Dave was talking about: joshcryer Mar 2018 #23
The LiDAR should have been able to see her from at least 200-250 feet away FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 #25
To answer your question: YES! A reasonable human driver would have had several seconds to react FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 #34
Self driving vehicles....damn, I'm glad my time on earth is about over. Hulk Mar 2018 #5
We're all just human guinea pigs for corporate America's harebrain ideas gyroscope Mar 2018 #6
This is a bit melodramatic, no? ExciteBike66 Mar 2018 #9
And that's relevant...how? Hulk Mar 2018 #20
One person dies and you make it seem like these AVs are ExciteBike66 Mar 2018 #22
Couldn't agree more! joshdawg Mar 2018 #11
I've little doubt the same sentiments were expressed during the 19th century LanternWaste Mar 2018 #14
Another empty analogy. Hulk Mar 2018 #21
I have yet to see one of these drive a snow covered rural road. NutmegYankee Mar 2018 #8
When granny can't distinguish pedestrians from shrubs bucolic_frolic Mar 2018 #10
Of all the world's problems, why are they investing in this needless technology? rgbecker Mar 2018 #12
Fatal flaw in the design - thinking humans behind the wheel are going to remain attentive - theres Kashkakat v.2.0 Mar 2018 #16
I think the ultimate goal is that the human inside the car doesn't have to pay attention xor Mar 2018 #18
I am okay with self driving cars Cold War Spook Mar 2018 #19
The big hurdle will be for the machine to account for unadulterated human stupidity inwiththenew Mar 2018 #24
People do that all the time, especially in states/cities where pedestrians have been programmed... brush Mar 2018 #27
There is an odd dark shadow covering the person prior to coming into view. honest.abe Mar 2018 #26
Are you speculating in the voice of the car or of a human driver? A car with sensors alleged to do.. brush Mar 2018 #28
Im speculating Uber doctored the video to cover their asses... honest.abe Mar 2018 #29
Sensors should've picked up the person anyway. At night those cars don't rely only on cameras. brush Mar 2018 #30
So it seems the sensors were not working correctly either. honest.abe Mar 2018 #31
That's a function of something called "Dynamic Range" FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 #33
Experts: Uber self-driving system should have spotted woman FrodosNewPet Mar 2018 #32

FrodosNewPet

(495 posts)
1. Police have released the first video from inside the Uber self-driving car that killed a pedestrian
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 01:08 AM
Mar 2018
Police have released the first video from inside the Uber self-driving car that killed a pedestrian

Here’s what the car — and its operator — saw.

https://www.recode.net/2018/3/21/17149428/uber-self-driving-fatal-accident-video-tempe-arizona

By Johana Bhuiyan @JMBooyah Mar 21, 2018, 7:23pm EDT


The video footage does not conclusively show who is at fault. Tempe police initially reported that Herzberg appeared suddenly; however, the video footage seems to show her coming into view a number of seconds before the crash. It also showed the vehicle operator behind the wheel intermittently looking down while the car was driving itself.

~ snip ~

Tempe police said on Tuesday that the department has yet to determine blame. However, Chief of Police Sylvia Moir previously told the San Francisco Chronicle that preliminarily “it appears that the Uber would likely not be at fault,” largely because Herzberg was not crossing the street at the crosswalk.

“It’s very clear it would have been difficult to avoid this collision in any kind of mode” — self-driving or human-driven — “based on how she came from the shadows right into the roadway,” Moir told the Chronicle.

~ snip ~

If Uber’s technology is found to be at fault in this accident, the company may face some fresh resistance from new or existing partnering automakers. That may still be the case even if there wasn’t a failure of the technology. The public perception and reaction alone could be enough for automakers to be wary of working with Uber publicly. Striking these relationships and maintaining its public image ahead of a planned 2019 IPO are pertinent for the company.

Eko

(7,170 posts)
2. Driving at 35mph it would take 66 feet
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 01:11 AM
Mar 2018

for a person to react and stop the vehicle, each line is 10 feet on the road and the empty space it in between is 30 feet, at .20 in the video you can begin to see the persons feet as well as 2 full lines on the road, that is 50 feet roughly. I dont see how a person would be able to stop in time using the math. AT 40 mph it would have to be 80 ft.

FrodosNewPet

(495 posts)
3. I think an ATTENTIVE human driver would have seen her sooner
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 01:27 AM
Mar 2018

It's a tough call, made harder by the limited resolution of the video. But I believe a good driver would have had enough warning to be able to swerve in time. She had crossed 3 other lanes of traffic before the impact.

So the question becomes: What did the radar and LiDAR show? Obviously the optical camera was useless in this situation. Sorry, Elon, but self driving Teslas MUST have LiDAR to be safe enough to drive in public.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/7/16988628/elon-musk-lidar-self-driving-car-tesla

xor

(1,204 posts)
7. I am by no means someone who is against the idea of self-driving cars
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 03:01 AM
Mar 2018

but that video does concern me. As mentioned, it doesn't look the car attempted to slow down or avoid the person. Even if the car had little chance of avoiding the person, there should have been some sort of attempt to reduce speed. The attendant looking down doesn't help either. :/

This should actually be one of those things that I would expect an automated car to be better at. It should have been able to detect that person moving into its path far quicker than a person. I would also think it's not unreasonable for it to have enough sensors to have a decent idea of its surroundings so it could perform some sort of actions reduce the chance of an accident. Uber is going to set things back majorly, I bet. As soon as they announced their desire for self-driving cars, I became concerned that they were going to screw things up.

FrodosNewPet

(495 posts)
4. Uber Tempe Video Shows A Crash That Self-Driving Cars Should Be Able To Avoid -- Time For Regulation
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 01:55 AM
Mar 2018
Uber Tempe Video Shows A Crash That Self-Driving Cars Should Be Able To Avoid -- Time For Regulations

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2018/03/21/uber-crash-tape-tells-very-different-story-from-police-report-time-for-some-regulations/#1a32059048df

Sam Abuelsamid | Mar 21, 2018 @ 09:05 PM


After a pedestrian was struck and killed in Tempe, Ariz., Sunday night by one of Uber’s automated driving prototypes, the city police initially seemed to think it was an unavoidable accident. However a completely different picture emerges from video footage that the Tempe police released Wednesday, and it now certainly appears as though the Uber system failed to perform its most basic function in near ideal conditions.

The original police reports gave the impression that the woman who was struck, Elaine Herzberg, suddenly jumped out of the shadows into the path of the Uber vehicle. While it’s true that to the human eye, she appeared suddenly out of the shadows, that’s only because she was wearing dark clothes on a dark unlit street. By the time the vehicle’s headlights caught her, it might have been too late for a human driver to react fully.

However, the reality isn’t that simple. The video footage shows the Uber vehicle was travelling in the rightmost of two lanes going in the same direction. Herzberg was moving from left to right, crossing from the center median to the curb on the far right. By the time she came into view of the camera, she was had crossed the left lane and was halfway across the right, having moved at least 20 feet from the median. She was also clearly walking her bicycle across the road, not dashing out in front of traffic. That means she was out in clear space on the road for at least a couple of seconds.

There was no other traffic around, and nothing to obstruct the sensors' view of Herzberg. The Volvo XC90s that Uber is using for development are equipped with cameras, radar and lidar sensors. The radar and lidar are capable of “seeing” their surroundings in complete darkness and should have easily detected Herzberg’s presence in the roadway anywhere from 150 feet to 300 feet away or more depending on the types of sensors that Uber is using.

~ snip ~

robbob

(3,514 posts)
13. Dark clothes on a dark unlit street:
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 09:29 AM
Mar 2018

One of my pet peeves as a driver. I’m constantly swerving to avoid (mostly) young people walking along the side of the road at night or riding a bike dressed in black from head to toe. I just want to pull over, jump out and talk to them about the fragility of life!

We all think we’re invincible when we’re young, I’d just like to warn them about the permanent consequences of being struck by a car who’s driver can barely see them.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
15. Should human drivers be able to avoid this as well?
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 09:50 AM
Mar 2018

Should human drivers be able to avoid this as well?

What then happens when (rather than if) they don't? Do we editorialize against any and all forms of driving that can potentially lead to injury; or do we simply limit your application of sentiment only to that which doesn't validate your biases?

xor

(1,204 posts)
17. It doesn't appear the car reacted at all.
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 11:16 AM
Mar 2018

A human driver (assuming they were paying attention) would have taken some sort of action. I am with you in defending the overall idea of these cars, and I have little doubt they will be part of our future. But it really does seem like something went wrong here, even if the lady crossing the street was mostly to blame for walking in front of a car. Given the amount of resistance autonomous cars from various groups, the people working on these really need to be extra vigilant in ensuring these perform better than human drivers. This accident shows that it performs just as bad, or perhaps worse, than a human driver.

I found this video and the discussion in the comments to be interesting. Although, that might just be due to the fact it reinforces what I already think Interesting video and comments that discuss it on a little bit more technical level than we usually get.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
23. Someone posted a link to the video Dave was talking about:
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 05:59 PM
Mar 2018
?t=9m5s

Yeah, Uber's solution is a failure, 100%. That woman should have been seen in plenty of time for the car to react.

FrodosNewPet

(495 posts)
25. The LiDAR should have been able to see her from at least 200-250 feet away
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 07:20 PM
Mar 2018

Self driving cars are inevitable. They have the potential to save lives and open up transportation to a lot of under-served people.

But they need to be as safe as possible. Any flaws, and this was a flaw, whether or not a human could have done any better, MUST be scrutinized and criticized. There MUST be a base level of performance coded into the law. Shouting "Luddite! Buggy whips! Why do you fear change?" does not change that.

 

Hulk

(6,699 posts)
5. Self driving vehicles....damn, I'm glad my time on earth is about over.
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:19 AM
Mar 2018

This is absurd. So now we are going to turn over to computers the safety of our streets. Great. Soon the self driving 18 wheelers will be barrowing down the freeways. Have fun everyone. Not to mention putting thousands more Americans out of work, with the blue collar living wage jobs, this is absurd as hell.

But hey....we all have the right to own and operate our AR 15's in public. We have a dictator who is flaunting the rules of law and a whole political party that SUPPORTS the son of a bitch as this country goes down into the sewer below third world countries who are struggling to make themselves better.

Adios ameriKKKa. We are fook'd, and sleep on through it, cause there is little to nothing we can do about it.

Try to stay positive. It's an illusion.

 

gyroscope

(1,443 posts)
6. We're all just human guinea pigs for corporate America's harebrain ideas
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:56 AM
Mar 2018

and here I thought experimenting on live human test subjects without their consent was against the law. Silly me!

ExciteBike66

(2,280 posts)
9. This is a bit melodramatic, no?
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 05:24 AM
Mar 2018

You know that horse buggy whip makers went out of business when cars became popular, right?

 

Hulk

(6,699 posts)
20. And that's relevant...how?
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:42 PM
Mar 2018

Melodramatic may be your reaction. Fine by me. Your nonchalant attitude is typical of society in general. Just go on sleeping.

ExciteBike66

(2,280 posts)
22. One person dies and you make it seem like these AVs are
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:51 PM
Mar 2018

killing people intentionally every day. So yes, a bit melodramatic.

As to the employment thing, my point stands. Technological change always has a dislocating effect, it has been this way forever. You sound like Trump when he talks about bringing coal jobs back...

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
14. I've little doubt the same sentiments were expressed during the 19th century
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 09:47 AM
Mar 2018

I've little doubt the same sentiments were expressed during the 19th century in regards to typical automobiles when John Lambert was involved in the first US auto accident... regardless of the illusions your positively taken in by.

 

Hulk

(6,699 posts)
21. Another empty analogy.
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:47 PM
Mar 2018

Right. I'm sure the auto was met with skepticism. That's about the extent of the relationship.

This is what happens when points are made; vague analogies get tossed out as a way to somehow silence them.

NutmegYankee

(16,177 posts)
8. I have yet to see one of these drive a snow covered rural road.
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 05:04 AM
Mar 2018

Which Is why I figure it will be a niche market for cities.

rgbecker

(4,806 posts)
12. Of all the world's problems, why are they investing in this needless technology?
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 07:55 AM
Mar 2018

Already the price of cars is unaffordible because of silly electronic crap and gimmicks yet the poor get poorer and more and more removed from the possibility of having affordable housing or transportation. Do I need to mention the 90 million on food stamps?

Kashkakat v.2.0

(1,752 posts)
16. Fatal flaw in the design - thinking humans behind the wheel are going to remain attentive - theres
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 09:51 AM
Mar 2018

already too many who fall asleep behind the wheel and diddle around with their phones even when engaged in the act of driving. So now having even less to occupy their attention I would expect this behavior to increase exponentially.


xor

(1,204 posts)
18. I think the ultimate goal is that the human inside the car doesn't have to pay attention
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 11:21 AM
Mar 2018

or even think about driving the car. In fact, one of the car companies is working on a car with no steering wheel. It has a stop button and that's about it. That's something I don't think I'm ready to embrace for myself.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/12/16880978/gm-autonomous-car-2019-detroit-auto-show-2018

 

Cold War Spook

(1,279 posts)
19. I am okay with self driving cars
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 02:37 PM
Mar 2018

as soon as the manufacturers take full monetary responsibility for every accident that a self driving car is in because of a problem with the hardware or software the car has.

inwiththenew

(972 posts)
24. The big hurdle will be for the machine to account for unadulterated human stupidity
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 06:08 PM
Mar 2018

Like slowly crossing the street at night in an unlit part with no sense of urgency. WTF was she doing? I guess she just figured the driver would see her and stop or avoid her. Quite a roll of the dice.

brush

(53,467 posts)
27. People do that all the time, especially in states/cities where pedestrians have been programmed...
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 07:44 PM
Mar 2018

with having the right of way over cars since their grade school days.

I live in Nevada now and marvel at how people walk out in front of cars nonchalantly, just knowing that the cars have to stop for them, often time without even looking both ways, trusting that the driver sees them.

But speaking of programming, the programming on that car in the video needs much work. That car didn't pick up the woman crossing the road at all. A human driver would've at lease tried to stop of swerve to the side to avoid hitting her.

Aren't those cars' sensors supposed to pick up objects in the street, even in the dark, way before humans are supposed to be able to?

honest.abe

(8,556 posts)
26. There is an odd dark shadow covering the person prior to coming into view.
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 07:33 PM
Mar 2018

It almost looks Photoshoped. I would have graphic experts examine this video very very closely.



I think if that dark shadow was not there I could have stopped in time to avoid hitting that person.

brush

(53,467 posts)
28. Are you speculating in the voice of the car or of a human driver? A car with sensors alleged to do..
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 07:47 PM
Mar 2018

better than humans certainly should have been able to stop.

That car didn't even put on brakes at all.

honest.abe

(8,556 posts)
29. Im speculating Uber doctored the video to cover their asses...
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 07:49 PM
Mar 2018

Or there was some flaw in cam that caused that dark band.

brush

(53,467 posts)
30. Sensors should've picked up the person anyway. At night those cars don't rely only on cameras.
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 08:00 PM
Mar 2018

Uber, manufacturers and others are rushing this technology on us and it clearly isn't ready.

honest.abe

(8,556 posts)
31. So it seems the sensors were not working correctly either.
Thu Mar 22, 2018, 08:03 PM
Mar 2018

Clearly something went wrong and that incident could have / should have been avoided. This technology is simply not ready for prime time.

FrodosNewPet

(495 posts)
33. That's a function of something called "Dynamic Range"
Fri Mar 23, 2018, 12:50 PM
Mar 2018

Dynamic range is the ratio between the largest and smallest values that a certain quantity can assume.

Relatively healthy human eyes have a much wider range of light values between light and dark that we can see than most electronic cameras.

FrodosNewPet

(495 posts)
32. Experts: Uber self-driving system should have spotted woman
Fri Mar 23, 2018, 12:46 PM
Mar 2018
Experts: Uber self-driving system should have spotted woman

https://apnews.com/74f6266086264bbfb0f6c8ed857465f1


TEMPE, Ariz. (AP) — Video of a deadly self-driving vehicle crash in suburban Phoenix shows a pedestrian walking from a darkened area onto a street just moments before an Uber SUV strikes her.

The lights on the SUV didn’t illuminate 49-year-old Elaine Herzberg on Sunday night until a second or two before impact, raising questions about whether the vehicle could have stopped in time.

~ snip ~

Tempe Police Chief Sylvia Moir has told the San Francisco Chronicle that the SUV likely wouldn’t be found at fault. But two experts who viewed the video told The Associated Press that the SUV’s laser and radar sensors should have spotted Herzberg and her bicycle in time to brake.

~ snip ~

“The victim did not come out of nowhere. She’s moving on a dark road, but it’s an open road, so Lidar (laser) and radar should have detected and classified her” as a human, said Bryant Walker Smith, a University of South Carolina law professor who studies autonomous vehicles.

~ snip ~

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