Algerian woman denied French citizenship over handshake

[EX500rider]

Source: BBC

A French appeals court has upheld a ruling denying an Algerian woman citizenship after she refused to shake the hand of a senior official.
The woman, who has not been named, said her "religious beliefs" prevented her from shaking the hand of the male official in the citizenship ceremony.
A government ruling said it showed she was "not assimilated into the French community" and denied her citizenship.
She appealed, but France's highest administrative court upheld the ruling.
The Algerian woman has been married to a French man since 2010.

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43839655

[marble falls]

1. WTF is wrong with France?

[sandensea]

3. Macron has been busy endearing himself to the French right

And pissing everyone off in the process.

[Crowman2009]

7. So that explains France bombing Syria.

[sandensea]

8. The elite like it

While their interests don't match the right's (writ large) perfectly, he certainly considers them one of the pillars of his administration - and the most important one at that.

[JI7]

11. It's not just the French right when it comes to these cultural

Matters. The left alsoi tends to support things like banning certain Islamic clothing, and thos these things concerning male/female interaction.

[LiberalLovinLug]

13. This is not a right wing issue, or it shoudn't be

The biggest failure of the American left is their cowardice in condemning Islamic religious laws that force women and minorities into subservient positions with few rights. They wear pussy hats and froth at the mouth at the right for turning a blind eye to their own Western governments foot dragging on their own issues, even though they are still miles ahead of these poor women in ME countries, which is still important (I have to say that) But they completely turn their backs on women and non-muslim minorities in Middle Eastern countries. Basically backing evil, abusive, patriarchal privileged autocrats who wrap themselves in the established historical cult in their countries to do that.

Yes you could isolate this one tip of the iceburg. And claim this isn't in a M. E. country and its just shaking a hand for pete's sake, and cry discrimination. But even IF the woman has been conditioned by her religion, which began in her home country, and her husband's inherent privilege, to never be allowed touch another mans hand, this is one small symptom of a larger problem. Some never are even allowed to leave their new homes in their new adopted country.

Is it fair to her personally? Maybe not. (Even though all it would probably take is her husband giving her permission) But it is to send a message that any new immigrants to France, will know in advance, that they now live in a Western state, with more liberal western values including greater women's rights. Where secular civil rights 'trump' archaic religious laws. Because sure this seems harmless, but its a slippery slope. That is the danger. Allowing one small apple to be rotten sounds harmless but it only stalls and derails the overall struggle against discrimination and fundamentalist rot around the world.

Comfortable Western liberals have this one giant hurdle to get over. Their reluctance to offend the sexist, bigoted, LGBTQ persecuting, anti civil rights, religious leadership in other countries. To view struggles like women's rights, as an example, as simply a domestic issue, and not a world wide struggle.

IMO, this is one issue that we could gain votes from independents, and R moderates. We have hardly any issues both sides agree on. Yes they are for different reasons. (the right only pretends it is about civil rights, but really about creating a boogeyman to go to war with and steal oil). But we shouldn't be as guilty as the right in simply arguing against anything the other side is for.

[rollin74]

5. +1000. I totally agree

[marble falls]

10. You think that muslim citizens need to act more "French"....

what if they lived here in the USA, would you also think that Muslim citizens of the US need to act more "American"?

[Jedi Guy]

35. To an extent, yes.

Like the old saying goes, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." You can't immigrate to someone else's country and then dictate to them how things are going to work. I immigrated to Canada, which meant I had to adjust to their culture and way of doing things. It's very similar to American culture, but there are differences.

That's not to say that immigrants must abandon all aspects of their home culture. They absolutely shouldn't. But they absolutely should and must abandon aspects that are incompatible with their adopted nation's culture. I'm referring here to things like enforced submissiveness of women, for instance, or honor killings, or female genital mutilation. Those practices have no place in any civilized nation.

Refusal to assimilate and refusal to discard practices incompatible with the host country's culture doesn't lead to anything good.

[marble falls]

36. Killing and mutilation are against the law, I'm asking about dress, langauge and popular culture....

Do you believe forcing a woman to touch a non family male acceptable as the last step to citizenship?

[Jedi Guy]

42. Not particularly, no.

It's not as if it's written into France's constitution that women must behave in such a way. I see where the French are coming from, honestly. They've just gone a bit overboard with it.

[LanternWaste]

46. in the spirit of low-hanging fruit, what objective and sources support that allegation?

"Refusal to assimilate and refusal to discard practices incompatible with the host country's culture doesn't lead to anything good..."

The historical record says otherwise. (Acculturation: Psychology, Processes and Global Perspectives by Jack Merton; Developing Cultures: Case Studies by Peter Berger; and Rituals of Childhood: Jewish Acculturation in Medieval Europe by Ivan G. Marcus)

However, in the spirit of low-hanging fruit, what objective and peer-reviewed sources support your allegation?

[Jedi Guy]

47. Common sense.

An immigrant minority that can't or won't assimilate into the culture of a host nation is going to find itself at a disadvantage. There may be enclaves such as the Jewish ghettos of medieval Europe but that's a far cry from true integration.

If I move to Paraguay and refuse to learn Spanish, I'm putting myself at a disadvantage when it comes to actually living in Paraguay. If there's a major American immigrant community I'll have an easier time, but not as much as if I learned Spanish and actually immersed myself in the culture.

[marble falls]

6. What if this had happened in the US?

[metalbot]

12. The US has never had a requirement for assimilation

Whereas the French have a long tradition of putting secular France ahead of religious or cultural norms.

[Arazi]

15. Yup. This is definitely NOT the US. French secularism is serious national business

[christx30]

9. Our way or the highway, I guess.

Act French, or go back where you came from. Maybe the next person trying to get French citizenship will just shake the hand.

[Cold War Spook]

14. I have never touched a Muslim woman

or an Orthodox Jewish woman. I do not talk to a married Muslim or Orthodox Jewish woman without first asking her husband if it is okay. I find that men from Turkey and Yemen tend to hug instead of shaking hands. If I know that I am going to meet someone from a country I am not familiar with I do research on their customs and beliefs. I don't care if they ever assimilate. That is up to them.

[GulfCoast66]

16. Well, do not move to France. They are fiercely secular.

And I totally respect your decisions...but I will be goddamn if I ask a man before even speaking to a woman. They are free to dehumanize their females without my assistance.

[marble falls]

37. Just some respectful common sense rules to moderate one's behavior around any unknown person...

More Americans would do well emulating them.

[Nitram]

17. France is, and has always had, a racist elitist culture.

For all their intellectual and egalitarian pretensions, they are nothing but a feudal reactionary European backwater. They pretend to treat the wards of their colonial possessions as French citizens, but prefer them to stay in the countries where they were born.

[Silver1]

18. I really feel for her. She must have felt really conflicted at that moment.

She's not allowed to shake a man's hand, so she won't do it.

What else is she not permitted to do?

I am so in love with where women in the west are and what we have achieved! And I intend to keep speaking up for women and men who say no to this kind of conformism. Thank you suffragettes for your intelligence and sacrifices. We remember you.

[christx30]

19. It just shows that her beliefs are not compatible

with French culture. She’s more compatible with Algeria. If her beliefs and culture doesn’t allow her to be a full member of society, she wouldn’t find success in the West. She won’t be able to get a job if she can’t shake the hand or speak to an interviewer. She’ll be more at home in Algeria.

[Silver1]

20. She has to make a choice.

And it's a really difficult one. It's just a part of what it means to emigrate and become an immigrant.
And according to the article, she did choose. It cost her the right to stay in France. Maybe a it's good thing for her, maybe not. Fate will tell.

[gyroscope]

21. I agree with the ruling.

The woman is still living in the 12th century. We don't need more of such people with their backward regressive customs. Republicans are bad enough.

[cabot]

22. I agree with the ruling

Secularism is an important part of French culture. It is also about respect. If a person moves to another country, they have to respect that country's culture. If I moved to a country where it wasn't acceptable for a woman to shake a man's hand, I would respect it. She chose to move to France. They didn't fly over to Algeria and drag her ass to France. She knew what France was about. Secularism should reign supreme. It is about time society starts to stand up to the overly-religious (be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, etc.) I'm sick and tired of pharmacists, doctors, etc. not prescribing certain medications or seeing certain patients and citing "their own personal beliefs." And I'm sick and tired of people moving to western countries and not conforming to certain cultural norms - such as handshaking - while citing their religious beliefs. It is the same exact thing: bullshit.

[Devil Child]

23. I agree with the ruling

Enforcing secularism is far more important than respecting religious superstition.

[Hekate]

24. What on Earth do the French do with Orthodox Jews? The community has been in Europe...

...probably since the Romans built roads, and certainly since the Middle Ages.

Oh, right. The French just let the tides of anti-Semitism flow back and forth.

Here's what I learned from observation about my late Father-in-law's community: I don't stick my hand out; I fold my hands together and give an open and pleasant greeting. (In fact, I do that with everyone now that I have arthritis in my hands, and it spares my poor bones from crushing.)

[EllieBC]

30. I do that too!

I was raised orthodox and still somewhat am. So I always have something in my hands or my hands folded.

The French are norotorious bigots. I find support for their bigotry here disgusting.

[Hekate]

39. I expect better of Dems/progressives than to support bigotry, but it pops up in the oddest places...

Every so often you just have to call it out for what it is, just like calling out misogyny. We are all a work in progress, I guess.

[melman]

44. 'just like calling out misogyny'

Misogyny is what you're defending here though. Odd that you can't see that.

[Hekate]

25. Nota Bene, my fine progressive friends: there are some amazingly bigoted responses here

Check your born-in-the-USA privilege

[christx30]

26. If you went to Saudi Arabia or Iran

and you were a woman, you’d be expected to cover your hair. You would get 1000 lashes for having wine with dinner. There would be no obligation or expectation for them to accommodate the rights or culture you have at home. You’re in their backyard, youplay by their rules.

If this woman wants the benefits of living in the West, she needs to act like a westerner. That means shaking someone’s hand if it’s offered. That’s our culture. If she can’t deal with our culture, there’s a boarding pass with her name on it. I don’t see why that’s such a bad thing to say.

[0rganism]

43. why is it a "bad thing to say"?

for one thing, it displays firm disregard for the particular circumstances of our fellow human beings.
from the article: "The Algerian woman has been married to a French man since 2010."
so the boarding pass with her name on it, are the French obligated to grant one to the husband as well? are the Algerians obligated to allow the couple return to their country because she's insufficiently westernized? should her husband need to travel across the sea whenever he wishes to see his wife in person? all because she doesn't wish to shake hands with other males? for that alone she cannot be recognized as a citizen? foolish nativism, at best.

why be so grabby and jealous with our "benefits of living in the West"? what is so hard about letting people live in open societies giving them a chance to adapt long-term, and perhaps in 30 years a person who has lived abroad returns to their oppressive home in Iran or Saudi Arabia and finds the desire and the courage and the connections to work for change in their country of origin? right now it seems we go out of our way to make such stories difficult, if not impossible.

[gyroscope]

27. I wasn't born in the USA

but as a naturalized citizen I certainly respect its laws and traditions.

why would anyone want to live in a country whose customs and traditions they do not respect? and why would we want such people here? if you want to be an American citizen then act like one.

[a la izquierda]

45. No shit. Id say I cant believe what Im reading...

But I’d be lying.

[doxyluv13]

28. All countries have hoops you need to go thru

I don't think it's unreasonable for France to make this one. One of the nice things about France vs the US is they don't bend over backward to accommodate religion.

[Hekate]

29. Who knew one of those "hoops" was allowing unwanted physical contact?

[doxyluv13]

31. Your point is?

In Switzerland they denied citizenship to a woman who complained about cow bells.
The admitting country makes the rules. There is no right to citizenship in another country, nor a right to change their rules to suit.

[ucrdem]

32. Nevertheless if handshaking is a legal requirement of citizenship it should be in the statutes.

Putting myself in the situation, yes it would have been an awkward and probably embarrassing moment, but then it's really on the official to have avoided it isn't it? It comes down to a power differential that the Algerian refused to acknowledge and that's what seems to have ticked someone off. If this went to a higher court, and I don't think it will, it probably would be overturned.

[Hekate]

33. Yep, a power differential

[Hekate]

34. Personal bodily integrity is a human right. If my boss made it a condition of my employment ...

...that he be allowed to massage my shoulders, kiss me when he chose, or whatever, it would creep me out. I worked for a Don Juan who became fascinated with the waist length hair of a lovely Native American woman who worked in the same office. He kept stroking it whenever he came by, until one day she saw him first and wound it all around her hand, glaring at him. The idiot was shocked -- how had it not occured to him that his behavior was intrusive and offensive? At least he didn't punish her for it like the French official did the woman who would not shake his hand.

A man or woman may have any personal reason at all for declining to shake someone's hand: a disfiguring skin condition, germophobia, arthritis -- or religion. Who are we to demand to know those reasons and to judge them?

PS: Cow bells come with the territory in some places. So do church bells. You move into a certain neighborhood and you accept that. It is not the same thing at all as declining to touch a stranger.

[christx30]

40. What if you were going for a job

and you refused to shake the interviewer’s hand? The interviewer would consider that rude and might not hire you.
If I went somewhere that shaking a stanger’s hand was considered rude, I wouldn’t offer. But in the West, it’s a show of friendliness and respect. It’s considered rude to refuse. You refuse because you don’t like the person.
It’s not about body autonomy. It’s showing that you can refrain from being a dick to the person in front of you. If she wants to be in a place where she doesn’t have to suffer the indignity ( ) of a handshake, she can live in Algiers.

[ucrdem]

41. What if he offered her a hot dog?

Or a cigarette? You see the problem?

[cabot]

38. To those defending the woman

Did you also defend Mike Pence/Billy Graham when they both said they are never left alone with a woman - to ensure there isn't any temptation? What about the ultra-Orthodox gentlemen who refuse to sit next to women on planes/buses? What about the man who was fired for refusing to shake hands with his female co-workers/supervisor because he said it went against his faith...is that okay?

If you agree that all three of the above were okay, fine. At least you are intellectually consistent. If not, then you aren't. End of story.

If a country calls itself secular, believe them. France places secularism above religion. Good - it is at it should be. There isn't any excuse to forgo societal norms in the name of ancient superstitions. This is the 21st century - we need to act like it.

[moriah]

48. I know the value of a handshake in our society, but also the value of handwashing/sanitizer.

I lived with my immunocompromized father throughout adolescence, though, and was therefore raised to be more concerned about bringing colds/flus home than some people.

If your religious convictions forbid you from doing the tasks required in certain fields, and accommodation can't be made, the proper thing for the religious person to do is to find another job. There are many jobs that don't have handshakes with clients as a job requirement.

But should they keep you from citizenship? I hope not here. They clearly said, if I understood it, that it wasn't so much the handshake but what it symbolized -- integration into France. France is not the US, but here we don't have a religious test to determine integration into society. Hell, a lot of the people who came here came with the intention of NOT integrating, of instead using religious freedom to live as they couldn't elsewhere.

And the Amish are still here. Sure, they aren't going to be able to apply at a cab company and then say they should get a check for not doing their job since driving is against their religion. They still got modifications made for voter ID, though, to exercise their rights without being photographed -- including a letter from their bishop being required.

Creating essentially a second-class of people -- people legally allowed to live here, but not allowed to continue their path towards citizenship and voting rights -- based on a religious test would be a very bad precedent. Especially when tbe test involves touching another person when they don't want it. It may be rude to refuse a handshake, it might only be socially acceptable to do so if you smooth it over by saying you feel sick and you don't want to spread whatever crud you "think you have", but it shouldn't affect basic rights if everything else is in order.