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Sun Jan 6, 2019, 09:25 PM

Belgium bans kosher and halal animal slaughtering methods

Source: The Hill

Belgium at the beginning of 2019 banned kosher and halal animal slaughtering methods, prompting lawsuits from Jewish and Muslim leaders in the country who say the ban amounts to religious discrimination.

Jewish and Muslim traditions require animals to be in perfect health when they are slaughtered, a requirement that clashes with European laws that require animals to be incapable of feeling pain when they are killed. Most European countries offer religious exemptions that allow for the production of halal and kosher meet.

But Belgium on the first day of the new year instituted a ban on ritual slaughter, which was promoted both by animal advocates and right-wing nationalists. Right-wing politicians across Europe have been promoting bans on halal and kosher slaughtering methods.

There are reportedly around 30,000 Jews and 500,000 Muslims in Belgium. Religious activists in the country have argued that the halal and kosher methods of killing animals are less painful and more humane.

Read more: https://thehill.com/policy/international/424103-belgium-bans-kosher-and-halal-animal-slaughtering-methods

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Reply Belgium bans kosher and halal animal slaughtering methods (Original post)
left-of-center2012 Jan 2019 OP
sandensea Jan 2019 #1
spike jones Jan 2019 #15
sandensea Jan 2019 #16
TwistOneUp Jan 2019 #31
Igel Jan 2019 #33
Oneironaut Jan 2019 #60
Hekate Jan 2019 #76
bitterross Jan 2019 #2
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #17
still_one Jan 2019 #40
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #44
still_one Jan 2019 #50
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #53
still_one Jan 2019 #63
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #84
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #65
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #88
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #103
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #105
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #106
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #107
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #108
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #109
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #110
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #111
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #112
Beakybird Jan 2019 #3
Hekate Jan 2019 #80
kiri Jan 2019 #4
Ligyron Jan 2019 #5
Cold War Spook Jan 2019 #6
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #19
Cold War Spook Jan 2019 #34
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #37
LanternWaste Jan 2019 #46
moriah Jan 2019 #49
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #54
moriah Jan 2019 #57
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #59
Hekate Jan 2019 #79
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #82
Hekate Jan 2019 #78
NutmegYankee Jan 2019 #9
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #18
jmowreader Jan 2019 #32
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #38
guillaumeb Jan 2019 #47
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #56
guillaumeb Jan 2019 #72
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #81
progressoid Jan 2019 #28
Drahthaardogs Jan 2019 #30
DavidDvorkin Jan 2019 #39
still_one Jan 2019 #41
Devil Child Jan 2019 #29
still_one Jan 2019 #43
Hekate Jan 2019 #77
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #92
ProudLib72 Jan 2019 #7
MosheFeingold Jan 2019 #51
EllieBC Jan 2019 #55
YOHABLO Jan 2019 #8
EX500rider Jan 2019 #22
rusty quoin Jan 2019 #10
marybourg Jan 2019 #11
YOHABLO Jan 2019 #12
rpannier Jan 2019 #14
Coventina Jan 2019 #13
RockRaven Jan 2019 #20
Dopers_Greed Jan 2019 #21
LittleGirl Jan 2019 #23
EX500rider Jan 2019 #24
LittleGirl Jan 2019 #25
EX500rider Jan 2019 #26
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #58
muriel_volestrangler Jan 2019 #64
EX500rider Jan 2019 #67
tirebiter Jan 2019 #27
MosheFeingold Jan 2019 #52
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #66
MosheFeingold Jan 2019 #68
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #69
MosheFeingold Jan 2019 #70
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #71
MosheFeingold Jan 2019 #73
Quackers Jan 2019 #102
BeneathTheMire Jan 2019 #104
The Truth Is Here Jan 2019 #74
MosheFeingold Jan 2019 #85
The Truth Is Here Jan 2019 #89
EllieBC Jan 2019 #93
MosheFeingold Jan 2019 #94
The Truth Is Here Jan 2019 #96
Cold War Spook Jan 2019 #35
angrychair Jan 2019 #36
Cold War Spook Jan 2019 #45
GulfCoast66 Jan 2019 #62
LuvNewcastle Jan 2019 #113
Scruffy1 Jan 2019 #42
The Mouth Jan 2019 #48
pampango Jan 2019 #61
Hekate Jan 2019 #75
EX500rider Jan 2019 #83
Hekate Jan 2019 #86
EX500rider Jan 2019 #87
Hekate Jan 2019 #90
EX500rider Jan 2019 #95
Hekate Jan 2019 #97
EX500rider Jan 2019 #98
Hekate Jan 2019 #99
EX500rider Jan 2019 #100
Hekate Jan 2019 #101
Major Nikon Jan 2019 #91

Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 09:29 PM

1. When governments start meddling with religious customs, it seldom turns out well.

If I were them, I'd apologize to my Jewish and Muslim communities, and say simply:

No pork. No bull.

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Response to sandensea (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 11:25 PM

15. It is when church starts meddling into government affairs that scares me.

When a “sin” becomes a crime, we are back in the Dark Ages.

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Response to spike jones (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 11:29 PM

16. Well said.

We not only have a revival of fascism to confront - but also of medievalism.

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Response to spike jones (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 04:56 AM

31. Hear here! nt

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Response to spike jones (Reply #15)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:55 AM

33. If the church reflects the will of a large segment of the population

then it's called "democracy," and if it doesn't infringe on other people's rights, it doesn't matter.

The same problem can happen when a political party representing just a small portion of the population also inflicts its will on the body politic.

If you're a member of the oppressing party (religious or secular) there's typically no problem. Otherwise, the general consensus is, "Leave me alone, I have my rights."

Sins are just moral failings that we decide to punish through extra-legal means and that Xian church says are bad. If it's not a church, then it's not "sin" but we use all the same means--social pressure, humiliation, drumming them out of the corps, whatever--to punish them. Some parties even chuck the poor sot out of their midst; we're more enlightened, we just try to ruin them for life, get them fired, bankrupt, etc.

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Response to Igel (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:39 PM

60. What the majority wants isn't always good.

Take, for example, female genitalia mutilation. A majority of people might believe all of the fiction around FGM, but a progressive government would need to rule against the majority.

“Sin” is a nonsense term. I wouldn’t call having a moral compass or social backlash at all similar.

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Response to Igel (Reply #33)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 05:58 PM

76. During the Spanish Inquisition, the Roman Catholic Church represented the majority of people...

And we all know how humane they were. At least I trust you do.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 09:33 PM

2. A Totally unnecessary law

 

Right-wingers have to have everything their way. Clearly, these practices were not causing problems except in the minds of the RWNJs.

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Response to bitterross (Reply #2)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:09 AM

17. We have the same laws here, it's just that exceptions are carved out to accommodate superstition

While it's certainly true that prior to WWII, some countries banned such practices because of intolerance, the reason it's done today is out of animal welfare concerns.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #17)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:56 AM

40. Tperhaps not killing the animal would make

sense.

I am not trying to debate whether people should or shouldn't eat animals, just that there appears to be a contradiction in that logic to me.


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Response to still_one (Reply #40)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:09 AM

44. A false dilemma is a contradiction in logic by definition

It's the one that's the most popular with PETA and has a lot to do with why people hate PETA.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #44)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:39 PM

50. I have no idea what PETA's logic is.

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Response to still_one (Reply #50)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:32 PM

53. I just told you

Their most frequently repeated fallacy is one can't consume animal products and simultaneously oppose animal cruelty. Many and I dare say most vegans don't even buy that.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:01 PM

63. That clarifies it. No, I don't buy that logic either. My point was not making a value

judgement on people, which is what that does.

The method of Kosher slaughter I suspect they believe is more inhuman because there is visually more blood, and that does not necessarily mean it is more painful

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Response to still_one (Reply #63)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:27 PM

84. Several veterinary organizations disagree

The reason they disagree is because there's been several objective studies commissioned by EU member nations. You can read the meta analysis here:
http://www.dialrel.eu/images/veterinary-concerns.pdf

It's also important to remember that outside of a religious context this issue hasn't been the least bit controversial for decades because people have already known what contemporary studies are now showing. The US passed the first Humane Slaughter Act in 1958 and for many European countries well before.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #53)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:16 PM

65. Well, all animal products are a result of cruelty

 

so how are they wrong?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #88)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:43 PM

103. Wikipedia lol

 

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Response to BeneathTheMire (Reply #103)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:24 PM

105. Welcome to DU

LOL

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #105)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:50 PM

106. You have no argument

 

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Response to BeneathTheMire (Reply #106)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:53 PM

107. You stole my line!

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #107)

Tue Jan 8, 2019, 12:02 AM

108. Can you please give me some examples

 

Of whatever it is that you’re trying to express?

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Response to BeneathTheMire (Reply #108)

Tue Jan 8, 2019, 12:04 AM

109. LOL!

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #109)

Tue Jan 8, 2019, 12:11 AM

110. Aw cmon

 

I said please though

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Response to BeneathTheMire (Reply #110)

Tue Jan 8, 2019, 12:16 AM

111. Say please to someone else, please

I'm done in this thread trying to have an adult conversation with you. As I said, welcome to DU.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #111)

Tue Jan 8, 2019, 12:19 AM

112. Exploitation is cruelty

 

All animal products come from exploitation.
Thank you
Goodnight

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 09:43 PM

3. This is designed to tell the Jews and Muslims to go to hell.

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Response to Beakybird (Reply #3)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:14 PM

80. Yes it is. It has nothing to do with "animal rights."

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 09:50 PM

4. decent treatment of animals is more important than old rituals

I think humane treatment of animals is more important than ancient religious practices. These 'laws/commandments'(613 in the Bible; allah knows how many in the Quran) have no value for society. They keep imans, rabbis employed, but cause pain to animals. Good for Belgian humanists.

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Response to kiri (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:05 PM

5. I have to agree.

The things that get excused in the name of religion are ridiculous and it's time for this to end. Given what we know about the universe and how it works there's just no excuse anymore for a lot of that crap anymore.

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Response to kiri (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:06 PM

6. So, are you a vegan?

 

The raising of animals in cages where they can not move about is much more painful for them than a ritualistic slaughter. I happen to like a medium rare ribeye steak 1 1/2-2 inches thick. My dogs prefer theirs rare. We eat red meat 3 times a week, pork 2 times a week and chicken 2 times a week. My aunt worked in a meatpacking company so we were raised on red meat. Red meat and potatoes.

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #6)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:17 AM

19. You don't have to be vegan to be against needless suffering during slaughter

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #19)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 07:35 AM

34. Why the last 2 words?

 

Animals raised for human consumption lead horrible lives. I am not advocating for or against the way these animals are killed, I just think that the way they are forced to live is even worse. I am a hypocrite in that I hate the way these animals have to live, but I am not a vegan or even a vegetarian.

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 08:53 AM

37. Relevance

This thread is about the use of ritual slaughter of animals. What you are talking about is a conversation worth having, but isn't relevant to this thread.

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #34)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:25 AM

46. Appears to be two wholly separate concepts, neither directly predicated upon the other.

"these animals are killed, I just think that the way they are forced to live is even worse"

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #19)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:37 PM

49. Nor do kosher methods necessarily require needless suffering.

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Response to moriah (Reply #49)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:34 PM

54. So why are they opposing the law?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #54)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:06 PM

57. I highly doubt Grandin would support a law outright banning kosher/halal slaughter practices.

However, as part of her work in trying to make food animals experience less stress altogether -- which includes experiences up to the point of any form of stunning, as well as ensuring electrically/chemically stunned animals truly are insensible vs using machines to hold them still and disguise regaining consciousness -- and her belief about humane methods, she has promoted several different techniques to still achieve all the ritual elements without unnecessarily stressing the animal before the cut.

Grandin approaches things from a very different viewpoint than many of us -- but her work in designing methods to achieve humane kosher/halal slaughter is recognized worldwide. It's not impossible.

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Response to moriah (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:17 PM

59. Nobody does except for the creme-de-la-dum Nazis

If they want to pay some Rabbi or Imam to do the hokey pokey and put their stamp on it, more power to them. Nobody with any sense is taking issue with that. All they are saying is they are going to have to get out of the 19th century and comply with the same regulations that everyone else who doesn't say hocus pocus has to comply with.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #59)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:12 PM

79. How about the other way around? In the US our average supermarket beef & chicken is so contaminated

... Well, never mind.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #79)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:17 PM

82. I don't know what you're talking about

But it sounds like a completely different subject.

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Response to moriah (Reply #57)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:09 PM

78. Thank you. I respect Temple Grandin a great deal. nt

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Response to kiri (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:38 PM

9. This has nothing to do with animal rights/treatment. It's just bigotry.

Kosher slaughter is very fast. The knife has to be so sharp that no blood gets on it. Unconsciousness is very rapid due to severing the arteries to the brain.

By contrast modern industrial slaughter is barbaric.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:12 AM

18. The reverse is closer to being true

Industrial slaughter requires stunning the animals so no pain and distress occurs. Not true for the superstitious methods.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 05:26 AM

32. Halal slaughter allows some stunning methods

Kosher slaughter, however, does NOT. And not all halal meat comes from a pre-stunned animal; some halal slaughtermen believe their techniques are so awesome the animal feels no pain.

Also, only the front quarters of a cow are kosher. Not sure why this is, but they sell the hindquarters into the non-kosher marketplace. Conversely, the entire carcass can be sold into the halal marketplace.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #32)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 09:03 AM

38. Not all of them believe that

It's not as if these people are going to do stop certifying these products. If stunning is required by law they will eventually decide god is OK with it and they will resume their certifications including that process. Meanwhile they shouldn't be excepted from society when just about the entire civilized world has decided this is the right way to do it.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #18)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:54 AM

47. Does this stunning invlove no pain?

This law is intolerance disguised as ethical treatment of animals.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #47)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:50 PM

56. Intolerance does not mean what you think it means

I get you like to throw that word around with zero basis. Good luck making the case that the leading veterinarian in the BVA is intolerant.

When it applies to everyone, it's not intolerance. When the reasons have nothing to do with religion, it's not intolerance.

It's pretty silly to pretend a process that takes a small fraction of a second and almost foolproof is somehow equal to a process that can take several minutes and is highly prone to human error. If you really want to go there, be my guest but I don't think it does much for your credibility on the subject.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #56)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 05:02 PM

72. Yes, the "when it applies to everyone" argument.

But the application coincidentally only involves 2 religions.

You need to look up how these animals are "painlessly" killed. It might make your reply more credible.

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Response to guillaumeb (Reply #72)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:16 PM

81. If you are going to be that disingenuous, I have no interest in discussing this with you

Unconscious slaughtering of animals has been applied to everyone the world over for the past 60 years or so. The only exception has been for religious reasons and Belgium has decided to no longer allow them. I don't have to look up anything. I was raised on a farm and I've been to slaughterhouses. I've also seen people slaughter animals at home pretty much exactly the way Kosher and Halal is prescribing as that's pretty much the way it has been done for thousands of years.

Meanwhile you made a charge of intolerance that you didn't even attempt to support or take back. I find that particularly insulting so I'm just going to leave you to your own devices as evidently you have your own agenda.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:10 AM

28. The knife has to be so sharp that no blood gets on it?

That seems highly unlikely.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 04:21 AM

30. Have you ever seen it done?

I have, it's not pretty. Of course the shoctim was so old he could barely hold the knife. His cuts were not precise.

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Response to Drahthaardogs (Reply #30)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 09:40 AM

39. I have

The shochet was not old at all, and it was still horrible.

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Response to NutmegYankee (Reply #9)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:00 AM

41. Electrocution, clubbing, and other methods are commonly used.

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Response to kiri (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:01 AM

29. +1 n/t

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Response to kiri (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:05 AM

43. Here is a more balanced discussion of the subject

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Response to kiri (Reply #4)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:07 PM

77. Do you have any idea what the difference is between modern mechanized animal slaughter and ...

...religiously-prescribed kosher/hallal slaughter?

Any idea at all?

First and foremost, under religious law the animal must be "clean," that is, show no signs of disease. I have not ever heard of a kosher beef or or chicken recall -- yet that is a recurring problem from our modern mechanized processing industries.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:18 PM

7. "Promoted both by animal advocates and right-wing nationalists"

That is a very scary quote!

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:13 PM

51. Indeed

The Venn diagram of the two literally (not figuratively) includes Hitler.

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Response to ProudLib72 (Reply #7)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:46 PM

55. Not surprising.

Horseshoe theory in real practice.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:32 PM

8. Haven't we all got bigger fish to fry? Why all of a sudden is this a problem?

 

So when our food resources are such that we start eating each other, will we be killing one another in a humane, painless way?
This is the DU member formerly known as YOHABLO.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #8)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:02 AM

22. "Haven't we all got bigger fish to fry?"

The Belgians figure they can chew gum and walk at the same time?

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:39 PM

10. I shop at a halal market.

 

The chickens are 3-3 1/2 pounds because they weren’t pumped up with growth hormone.

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Response to rusty quoin (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:55 PM

11. Thank you. I've been very unhappy with the

5-5.5 lb behemoths they’ve been stocking at my local supermarkets, which serves a senior community where the largest family is composed of 2 members, and the beef roasts are sold as 2-2 1/2 pounders. I’ll look for a halal market.

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Response to rusty quoin (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 10:59 PM

12. How much does a halal chicken (3-1/2 lbs) cost? Poor folks don't have that luxury.

 

This is the DU member formerly known as YOHABLO.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #12)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 11:23 PM

14. I'm not Jewish or Muslim and have only ever bought twice (both times while in Europe)

But, I didn't find it more expensive.
Since it's a requirement in many communities the price is kept fairly low

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Sun Jan 6, 2019, 11:11 PM

13. Good, such butchering is cruel. Invisible sky fairies shouldn't demand cruelty. n/t

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:40 AM

20. One can have an honest debate about what is or isn't appropriate treatment of animals, but

nobody else ought to spend a moment considering what your favorite bed-time story has to say on the matter. Leave that noise out of public policy and law; play with your toys and write your fan-fiction at home.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)


Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:19 AM

23. Do they want to start another war?

no need to answer that. Stupid law. sheesh.

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Response to LittleGirl (Reply #23)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:20 AM

24. What war did Belgium start? n/t

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #24)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:23 AM

25. I mean that

this stupid law is going to piss off Muslim and Jews. And animal right activists. Do we need another "war" on animals, is how I should have framed it.

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Response to LittleGirl (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:27 AM

26. Animal right activists were behind the law, so I doubt they are pissed off. n/t

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #26)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:08 PM

58. Belgium is on the leading edge of this, but I guarantee more of Europe will follow

In typical US fashion, progressivism will eventually arrive here as well kicking and screaming all the way.

The sad part is humane slaughtering of animals isn't a new concept. 100 years ago just about everyone did it the way the superstitious demand it must still be done. Once technology allowed for instantaneous methods people started adopting them and eventually it was required by law. The US went that direction over 60 years ago after most of Europe was already there. Now that governments are finally demanding people don't get exceptions for torturing animals we must somehow believe all of this is controversial.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #58)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:03 PM

64. It's already banned in Denmark, Sweden, Norway and parts of Switzerland

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Response to LittleGirl (Reply #25)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:35 PM

67. Not passing a law against animal cruelty because it might "piss" someone off is silly.

It's either the right thing to do or it isn't, who gets pissed off is somewhat irrelevant.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:08 AM

27. I always order kosher when I fly

It's a guarantee of a healthy meal

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Response to tirebiter (Reply #27)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 01:20 PM

52. Me, too

But then, I'm Orthodox Jewish.

Kosher butchering avoids things like nerves, fatty tissues, and most organs. The entire "mad cow" epidemic in Europe completely bypassed observant Jewish people because such diseased items (and sick animals) are avoided by kosher requirements.

And Kosher slaughter is, if done correctly (a large "if"; there are bad actors like anywhere), very humane. The animal hasn't a clue what is going on. In fact, the entire process is purposed to avoid cruelty.

I suspect the authorities did this out of racism against Muslims and then just added Kosher slaughter to avoid civil unrest and give themselves cover.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #52)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:24 PM

66. This might sound strange

 

but the animal does not actually want to die. Humane meat does not exist.

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Response to BeneathTheMire (Reply #66)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:43 PM

68. Well

I suppose broccoli doesn't want to be harvested, either.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #68)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 03:57 PM

69. You sound a bit silly but that's ok, we can work with that.

 

Humans need plants in order to live. Plants can't really "want" anything because they lack a central nervous system. (sure they can respond to a stimulus but they feel no pain). Many plants and fruits need to be eaten in order to grow more fruits and plants. So if a plant could want, they would indeed want to be harvested for the sake of their continued offspring.

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Response to BeneathTheMire (Reply #69)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 04:07 PM

70. I can hear the brocolli screaming!

You must be an animalist, preferring the rights of animals over innocent green plants that have never preyed on anything.

I defend plants against evil creatures who prey upon them.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #70)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 04:23 PM

71. Another silly argument

 

The animals you eat consume way more plants than I ever could.

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Response to BeneathTheMire (Reply #71)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 05:21 PM

73. Well, they'll only stop

If I eat them.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #73)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:36 PM

102. Win!

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #73)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:44 PM

104. Oh you and your silliness

 

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #52)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 05:22 PM

74. What is your opinion on Rubaskin

 

Now that hes out?

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Response to The Truth Is Here (Reply #74)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:29 PM

85. Mixed

I think he was a bad guy and a bad actor, but I also think the Judge was a raving antisemitic ass.

He denied bail (for a bit) simply on the basis that Rubaskin was Jewish and could thus (theoretically) make aliyah to Israel. Never mind Israel would refuse a fleeing felon of this nature the right of aliyah.

Anyway, he deserved to be convicted (from what I know). He also deserved to be freed after 8 years. Way longer than any similar case.

Anyway, you know the judge overreached when a bunch of Obama-era officials and current Democratic officials petition Trump to commute the sentence --- and Trump agrees.

Mind, you I am a Lubavitcher myself, so I am a bit biased (and also the last-standing Orthodox Democrat, although I admit I am deeply troubled by the overt antisemitism of several new members of Congress). I kind-of-sort-of knew his father, who was a good man.

Don't know what happened to the son. Greed, I suppose.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #85)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:48 PM

89. Ah! I have a few "lapsed" Lubavitcher friends.

 

One from a well-known family in NYC.

But I'm also Orthodox (from a Satmar sect), born and raised here in Denver, so Rubaskin's were pretty much our staple, but now we get kosher foods from other sources. Married into another Orthodox family from Boro Park, wife hated the traditions and the Sabbath/holiday rules, so moves us more of a modern Orthodox style. We try to keep Shabbat as much as possible for the sake of our son, but not always (like a few times in a year).

This year my son's having big-time issues with his 4th grade Judaic studies teacher. This guy is just not following the Jewish traditions of anything, and teaching nothing. This yutz is from Israel via NJ, and really does nothing. He doesn't even wear kippah, and wears dreads and is anti-thesis of a Judaic teacher should be. The kids aren't learning anything Jewish at all. This guy had the gall to bitch at me about my son because he wasn't respectful to him. No shit, after what my mother reported to me this morning, I'm convinced that the school has made a huge mistake with this guy.

I'm pretty lefty and this school is the leftiest of the three Jewish schools that are in the Denver area. The other schools are leaning towards to the frum side which isn't what I want for the kiddo. I want him to make a choice on what path he wants to go. My wife and I have had pretty much Orthodox style family life, and we want what the kiddo wants.

Sorry for the rant, I just don't really have anyone to talk to, because of my uniqueness.

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Response to The Truth Is Here (Reply #89)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 07:11 PM

93. Rebbe Zalman or Rebbe Aaron?

I'm not Satmar but we have Lubavitch and Bobov family so I am familiar with some of Chassidic splits.

Anyway there's also a Jewish group her on DU. Feel free to join.

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Response to The Truth Is Here (Reply #89)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 07:24 PM

94. Well, I'm not lapsed

Although my son has to drive me to shul on Friday afternoons. We have a small apartment near. I am old, so I live with my son now, and he is a doctor in a very rural area. Big change for me.

I am very much the only Democrat there. Even my son is Republican. The antics of Rashida Tlaib calling for the genocide of Jewish people in Israel was a bridge too far. I fear he will never reconsider our party.

As an aside, there is an Israeli TV show I am enjoying on Netflix called "Shtisel" you would enjoy. It follows (I think) Satmar family in Israel. (You really can't tell the specific Hasidic group -- not Lubavitch, as they are very much not Zionists)

It is very respectful and (interestingly) the number one show among Hasidic families, despite not many having TVs.

It's split between Hebrew and Yiddish (which I enjoy listening to, since I haven't spoken it since my wife died).

There are English subtitles for both.

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Response to MosheFeingold (Reply #94)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 08:34 PM

96. I will have to take a look at the series. thank you!

 

I'm always in the hunt (as is my mother) for some interesting series on Netflix.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 07:44 AM

35. Question

 

When a deer is killed by a hunter sitting in a tree, its meat tastes much better than when the hunter has dogs that run the deer for some time before the hunter kills it. I do not hunt but my friends give me some meat to make my venison and pork meatloaf. So back to my question, does anyone know if the way an animal at the slaughter house is killed, has an effect on how the meat will taste?

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 08:05 AM

36. Depends really

A distressed animal burns through its sugars, glycogen, in its muscles in a fight or flight response to a situation. The glycogen is burned through leaving lactic acid as part of that process. High levels of latic acid leaves the meat with a very high Ph (acidic) and dramatically impacts the taste profile, making highly stressed animal meat nearly inedible at times.

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Response to angrychair (Reply #36)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:14 AM

45. Thank you

 

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #35)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:55 PM

62. Before switching majors I studied meat production.

No matter the method of killing, most of the animals are so worked up getting transported to the slaughterhouse, being forced down a chute with electric prods and smelling all the blood it is analogous to a deer being chased by dogs. Which is one of the reasons, but hardly the only one, that beef is aged before consumption.

I am a hunter. I still hunt out of stands. One minute the deer is walking along doing deer things, the next he or she is dead. If I can’t insure a one shot kill to the heart and lungs I do not shoot. This year I killed 2 deer. Used 2 bullets. Even my vegan friends consider this the most humane way to get meat.

I try to but all my store bought meat from small local producers. But have no illusions about what the animals go through. Especially pigs. They are smart and seem to know what is coming unless kill individually on the farm. Of course, pork is not relevant to the OP.

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Response to GulfCoast66 (Reply #62)

Tue Jan 8, 2019, 08:41 AM

113. Yes, I've seen video of pigs in the slaughterhouse and

the sounds they make almost cause me to cry. They react in a very similar way that one imagines humans would react while being lined up in a slaughterhouse. Seeing it will make you think twice about eating meat at all.
This is the DU member formerly known as LuvNewcastle.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 11:01 AM

42. Caving to superstition never turns out well.n/t.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 12:14 PM

48. Good riddance to every vestige of sky fairy rituals

Eliminating all such silly fantasy, regardless of the name of the invisible sky fairy, the ethnicity of said sky-fairy's followers or the weeping wailing and gnashing of teeth of the folks who still think such bronze age bullshit should be worthy of anything other than ridicule would be a good step.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 02:51 PM

61. "Right-wing politicians across Europe have been promoting bans on halal and kosher slaughtering

methods."

To give the right some credit, they do seem to know how to choose 'popular' ways to create hardships for minorities, motivate their base and split the left.

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Response to left-of-center2012 (Original post)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 05:56 PM

75. So right wing nationalists want to ban animal processing methods that are healthier for humans...

...and less painful for animals.

And all you people bending over backwards to justify this ban -- you would trust right wing nationalists why?

Please my fellow liberals -- tell me why.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #75)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:21 PM

83. Did you miss the part where it is supported by animal activist groups in Belgium also? n/t

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #83)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:33 PM

86. Animal rights activists are apparently willing to ally with the Devil himself...

I find that less than compelling.

The average person is so removed from the farm that they have no idea what is and is not involved in the slaughter of animals, except it sounds icky. It is icky. But there are different grades of ick.

I suggest a little basic research into modern animal processing bu secular factory slaughterhouses before decrying ancient animal processing by Jews and Muslims.

I suggest that everyone in this thread who is jumping to the defense of "animal rights activists" take a long hard look at the resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe and the wave of Islamophobia there as well.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #86)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:41 PM

87. If animal activists think it is wrong, they probably don't care who else does.

It's either the right thing to do or it isn't, who agrees with you is irrelevant to that fact.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #87)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 06:50 PM

90. Right wing nationalists? That stink isn't going to wash off. If you can't smell it ...

...from across the Atlantic, I won't be surprised if you can't smell it when it is right on our own doorstep. Or do you think Europe's right wing nationalists are any different from ours?

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Response to Hekate (Reply #90)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 07:36 PM

95. So if RW Nationalists are anti-child abuse I should be for it? n/t

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #95)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 08:55 PM

97. Nice deflection. If Nazis say they are against child abuse, I look elsewhere for my support...

Skinheads/Nazis/White Nationalists -- they are vicious and they lie, whatever name they call themselves today.

And as we have learned to our sorrow, Putin just loves them because they are willing tools in his stated goal to undermine Western democratic states. Finding wedges is what he does, then drives them home as hard as he can.

This move isn't "democratic." It is anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, and destructive of actual democracy.

You want kindness to animals? Don't be an idiot. Find. Other. Allies. (Obviously I am not including you or any other DUer in the category of "idiot." That was the grammatically plural general "you." )

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Response to Hekate (Reply #97)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 09:06 PM

98. Kind of hard to limit support for a law to just people you agree with. n/t

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #98)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:08 PM

99. Don't be disingenuous

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Response to Hekate (Reply #99)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:12 PM

100. I am not. If a animal rights group supports a law they zero control over who else does. n/t

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #100)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 10:20 PM

101. If I am working for the local Rape Crisis Center and the local branch of the KKK announces ...

...how much they support my cause and want to donate and show up at marches -- oh what to do? what to do?

Publicly disavow their support, their money, and any attempt to get in front of the same camera.

EX500rider -- just stop it.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #87)

Mon Jan 7, 2019, 07:00 PM

91. Neither should anyone else

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