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Sat Apr 13, 2019, 10:26 PM

Can the Holocaust Be Forgiven? Bolsonaro Says Yes, Drawing Israelis' Ire

Source: New York Times




President Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil during a meeting of evangelical leaders on Thursday. He suggested the Holocaust could be forgiven.CreditCreditMauro Pimentel/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

By Megan Specia
April 13, 2019

President Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil drew Israel’s ire on Saturday for saying the crimes of the Holocaust are forgivable.

Mr. Bolsonaro made the comments Thursday night at a meeting with evangelical pastors in Rio de Janeiro. He was talking about his visit to the Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem earlier this month.

“We can forgive. But we cannot forget,” he said of the Holocaust, adding that action was needed to ensure its horrors were not repeated. “Those who forget the past are condemned to not have a future,” he added.

President Reuven Rivlin of Israel and Israel’s Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial criticized the right-wing Brazilian leader, who has come under fire before for his controversial statements on other subjects.


Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/13/world/middleeast/bolsonaro-holocaust-forgive-israel.html

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Reply Can the Holocaust Be Forgiven? Bolsonaro Says Yes, Drawing Israelis' Ire (Original post)
Judi Lynn Saturday OP
JI7 Saturday #1
PupCamo Saturday #3
edbermac Sunday #9
susanna Sunday #13
Fortinbras Armstrong Sunday #17
paleotn Sunday #22
Honeycombe8 Sunday #29
PupCamo Saturday #2
briv1016 Saturday #4
Cold War Spook Saturday #6
susanna Sunday #14
ManiacJoe Sunday #8
atreides1 Sunday #16
area51 Saturday #5
stevil Sunday #27
Cold War Spook Saturday #7
Codeine Sunday #37
Journeyman Sunday #10
PatrickforO Sunday #12
ck4829 Sunday #20
PatrickforO Sunday #11
jpak Sunday #15
Name removed Sunday #18
Crowman2009 Sunday #19
Lucky Luciano Sunday #21
Judi Lynn Sunday #34
paleotn Sunday #23
louis c Sunday #24
ck4829 Sunday #25
Evolve Dammit Sunday #36
Mike Nelson Sunday #26
McCamy Taylor Sunday #28
Honeycombe8 Sunday #30
ripcord Sunday #31
Name removed Sunday #32
Maxheader Sunday #33
Firestorm49 Sunday #35
Xolodno Sunday #38
Farmer-Rick Monday #39
guyfromla Monday #40
MurrayDelph Monday #41
Stuart G Monday #42

Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2019, 10:29 PM

1. is that one of the places nazi officers hid out in ?

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Sat Apr 13, 2019, 10:30 PM

3. they were all over South America after the war

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 01:52 AM

9. Argentina mostly.

“Eichmann was hardly alone among Nazis in finding refuge in South America after the fall of the Third Reich. According to a 2012 article in the Daily Mail, German prosecutors who examined secret files from Brazil and Chile discovered that as many as 9,000 Nazi officers and collaborators from other countries escaped from Europe to find sanctuary in South American countries. Brazil took in between 1,500 and 2,000 Nazi war criminals, while between 500 and 1,000 settled in Chile. However, by far the largest number—as many as 5,000—relocated to Argentina.”

https://www.history.com/news/how-south-america-became-a-nazi-haven

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 04:02 AM

13. Oh, yes.

Certain South American countries hid many Nazis for a very long time.

Which is why what he says means nothing to me.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 08:02 AM

17. Josef Mengele fled first to Buenos Aires, then to Paraguay, then to Brazil

He died in Sao Paolo in 1979

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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 09:33 AM

22. Reminds me of...

ODESSA and The Boys from Brazil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ODESSA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(novel)

Lots of Nazis ended up in friendly South American countries, particularly Peron's Argentina.



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Response to JI7 (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 02:06 PM

29. Yep. Hence the fictional novel, "The Boys from Brazil." nt

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2019, 10:30 PM

2. I think anyone with an ounce of humanity would be pissed

forgive the murder of over 6 million people?

I wonder how many ex-Nazis and/or their families are living in Brazil right now

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2019, 10:31 PM

4. Forgive who?

Most of the people responsible for the Holocaust are already dead. In 10-20 years all those even remotely related to it's operation will also be dead.

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Response to briv1016 (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 13, 2019, 11:40 PM

6. You forgive in your heart.

Maybe when I am dead I will forgive them but I doubt it.

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 04:09 AM

14. I have a rule for myself about forgiveness.

If I cannot forget it, I cannot forgive it. I have been relatively lucky in my personal life - I have forgotten (and therefore forgiven) many small things over my years.

Forgiveness, at its base, means forgetting the offense, because otherwise you carry the anger on - and that is not forgiveness.

Some offenses should not be forgotten, and therefore, cannot (in all honesty) be forgiven.

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Response to briv1016 (Reply #4)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 01:03 AM

8. Exactly.

Even if one wanted to forgive those who committed the heinous acts, they are all dead. There is no one left to forgive.

It is a separate conversation, but there are some acts that are unforgivable.

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Response to ManiacJoe (Reply #8)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 06:40 AM

16. The original perpetrators may be dead

But, there is another generation being groomed to fill positions and even possibly do it all over again!


Only this time it'll be people of color, and it won't matter if they come from south of the border or are US citizens, it'll be members of the LGBTQ community, it'll be women, it'll be the non-religious...but the murderers will be the same...white men and women who feel that the color of their skin and the mythological deity they worship, somehow gives them the right to do as they please in the name of that deity!!!

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2019, 11:02 PM

5. F Bolsonaro.

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Response to area51 (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 10:51 AM

27. Yes!!!!

F him

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sat Apr 13, 2019, 11:43 PM

7. Someone has got to respond to him.

Last edited Mon Apr 15, 2019, 07:13 AM - Edit history (1)

I imagine the tweet will be something like, He was referring to the nice Nazis.

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Response to Cold War Spook (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 08:23 PM

37. Something like "very fine people on both sides." nt

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 01:59 AM

10. From Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism" . . .

In their effort to prove that everything is possible, totalitarian regimes have discovered without knowing it that there are crimes which men can neither punish nor forgive. When the impossible was made possible it became the unpunishable, unforgivable, absolute evil which could no longer be understood and explained by the evil motives of self-interest, greed, covetousness, resentment, lust for power, and cowardice; and which therefore anger could not revenge, love could not endure, friendship could not forgive. Just as the victims in the death factories or the holes of oblivion are no longer "human" in the eyes of their executioners, so this newest species of criminals is beyond the pale even of solidarity in human sinfulness.

emphasis added

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 03:22 AM

12. And so they were tried for their crimes at Nuremberg, and hanged.

The ones who had lesser crimes did serious time.

Were they unpunishable? No. Their necks broke with the weight of their bodies when they dropped through the traps and the rope jerked tight.

It is the same, I think, with the crimes against humanity perpetrated at our southern border. I'm not advocating hanging Trump...thought it is a pleasant thought...but justice? Punishment fitting his crimes?

You bet. Arendt was clearly trying for something profound, but let's not get carried away. These people are nothing more than criminals. Their crimes are huge, but they are still crimes and they can still be punished for those crimes.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 08:47 AM

20. Good to know, terrifying read

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 03:16 AM

11. Well, when apprehended, they must be tried here, on this earth,

and feel the full weight of the consequences of their actions.

It is true God may forgive them, but that is up to God. Our job is to hold them accountable, and ensure justice is done.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 05:28 AM

15. Trump's BFF

yup

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)


Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 08:45 AM

19. Nutty-yahoo doesn't mind what Bolsonaro said because he thinks the nazis only

wanted to expel the jews.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 08:58 AM

21. Fuck him. I'm literally on a bus between the Auschwitz Museum to the Birkenau camp right...

...this second. No forgiveness.

A very solemn occasion obviously. I hate reading this from our modern day fascists while trying to remember past evil today.

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Response to Lucky Luciano (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 03:44 PM

34. Stunning coincidence. What are the ordinary chances that could happen?

It certainly is a unique deepening experience more people should realize.

Thank you for your comment.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 09:35 AM

23. It won't be long...

before Bolsonaro starts making opponents "disappear." Brazil has a long, terrible history of that.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 09:40 AM

24. President Trump; Comment Please

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Response to louis c (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 10:17 AM

25. Yes, let's talk about this "trope"

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Response to louis c (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 07:40 PM

36. He won't. He agrees with all dictators. Look out.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 10:32 AM

26. Huh...

… how do you forgive an event? The Holocaust can't be forgiven, never, ever... you can forgive certain people, but not an evil event. We forgive Germany as a country, and the Germans as a people - but not what the thing Nazis did called the Holocaust. Not sure what this guy is trying to say... if it's anything good, he's not saying it properly.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 01:32 PM

28. Forgiven by whom? The church that conducted the Crusades and Inquisition?

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 02:10 PM

30. Many religious people believe in forgiveness for everything.

Me...I don't see how you can forgive someone who has not asked for forgiveness or even admitted wrongdoing. In that instance, saying you forgive them is a bit arrogant, IMO. Like the forgiver has the power to force forgiveness onto someone who doesn't think he needs forgiveness, in the first place.

But many feel like this man...forgive but don't forget. (His country also profited from the Nazis who fled to his country after they lost the war. So he may be trying to get his country absolved for their part in protecting the Nazis.)

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 03:19 PM

31. When we begin to forgive something like the holocaust

Is when we begin to forget things like the holocaust and that is unforgivable.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)


Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 03:42 PM

33. Forgiven?

No more than I can forgive ford motor corp and ibm for aiding
in the genocide of the jews and aiding the nazi in the war effort...

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 06:34 PM

35. Idiot Trump's buddy. Birds of a feather......

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2019, 11:07 PM

38. We don't have any say about forgiving them...

...THAT is for the victims to decide.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2019, 02:12 PM

39. First off who are thes Evangelical Christians to forgive?

As far as I know, they weren't the victims. It's like me forgiving the the thief who stole from my neighbor.

And I think many Jews have forgiven the Nazis because they are now voting and funding the Nazi in the White House.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2019, 02:45 PM

40. Haters of all colors - gather together

Well he was embracing Netanyahu last week in front of Wailing Wall, right? You think this is done in a void? Hell No!! These asshole hate mongers coordinate their topic of hate everyday so they can get the votes.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2019, 03:59 PM

41. Can it be forgiven? Possibly

But that is neither his decision nor mine to make.

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Response to Judi Lynn (Original post)

Mon Apr 15, 2019, 04:22 PM

42. Bolsonaro needs to join the "Stupid Club" for saying something so ..STUPID

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