Virus Drug Touted by Trump, Musk Can Kill In Just Two Grams

[demmiblue]

Source: Bloomberg

The drug touted by the U.S. President Donald Trump as a possible line of treatment against the coronavirus comes with severe warnings in China and can kill in dosages as little as two grams.

China, where the deadly pathogen first emerged in December, recommended the decades-old malaria drug chloroquine to treat infected patients in guidelines issued in February after seeing encouraging results in clinical trials. But within days, it cautioned doctors and health officials about the drug’s lethal side effects and rolled back its usage.

This came after local media reported that a Wuhan Institute of Virology study found that the drug can kill an adult just dosed at twice the daily amount recommended for treatment, which is one gram.

As the drug hasn’t been approved by the U.S. Food And Drug Administration to treat the disease known as Covid-19, the Chinese experience may be useful as the American regulator studies the medication which has been endorsed by Trump as well as Tesla Inc. chief executive officer Elon Musk.

Read more: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-20/virus-drug-touted-by-trump-musk-can-kill-with-just-two-grams?srnd=premium

[RandiFan1290]

1. 2 grams of many drugs can kill you

[hlthe2b]

3. Soooo not the point. The fact is the past safety profile of Chloroquine can not automatically

translate to its use in COVID-19-- or other viral infections, for that matter. THAT is why we have to complete disease-specific efficacy trials and not encourage every physician to use it off-label sans further evidence.

Trump and his ilk have been incredibly irresponsible in pushing this--even as his FDA commissioner (fortunately) tamped down the expectations

[moriah]

6. Yeah, but that's not much safety threshold when the "normal dose" is 1 gram.

Especially when that drug builds up in the liver AND is eliminated by the kidneys. Elderly people, who need this treatment the most, are the ones most likely to be unable to tolerate the doses required because of lower liver or kidney function to begin with.

Notice how *very* carefully that manufacturer only wants 2.5g given over 3 days, MAXIMUM, to treat an acute attack of malaria, because of such issues.

[GumboYaYa]

21. In South Korea it is standard of care to dose 50mg for 10 days

and they have the lowest death rates of any country. They have dosed thousands of patients.

[moriah]

30. As I said to other poster, was going by original article on dose being given...

... which was stated at 1 gram being used.

500 mg does widen the therapeutic window a bit, but one thing I am still concerned about when you state (without a source I can find so we can be sure we're looking at the same thing) that "thousands" were dosed...

Right now, only 3% of SK's 8500+ cases have been among people over 80. 19% of Italy's confirmed cases as of March 13th were in people over 80 (and I don't remember what their numbers were, but I'm pretty sure Italy overtook SK by then on raw numbers). 60% of SK's cases have been in the "not likely to die" age groups.

If that is "standard of care" to stop the virus and stop it from spreading further, and because it's easily available then given to everyone vs just the symptomatic, then that may be based on treatment given to a much healthier population. Part of the reason I went to the med warning label was to find geriatric contraindications.

Honestly when I clicked I was not expecting it to be this generic cheap drug that had the narrow therapeutic window, but one of the experimental ones. I was sad, because some of the sickest, the ones who need the drug as a treatment more than a public service, may not even be able to tolerate 500 mg a day.

[GumboYaYa]

31. I am looking for more info on this.

I have some virologists that I know who have told me the 500mg was 50mg a day for 10 days and I read it somewhere also. But I am seeing some studies that imply it is 500mg per day, which would have much greater toxicity risk. So I am not sure if we are comparing apples to apples yet. But I agree the cost and availability of this drug make it exciting if it is an effective therapy.

[GumboYaYa]

32. Here is an article about a French doctor who was dosing 600mcgs for 10 days

and getting results, so it makes me believe the 50mg per day for 10 days from South Korea is correct also.

https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/French-researcher-in-Marseille-posts-successful-Covid-19-coronavirus-drug-trial-results?fbclid=IwAR2-orZcQaY40U-j1kFjJ7trAqkduNwnXRZWp4KtZD0T9TUGKH3r8OaDGII

[Drahthaardogs]

49. 50 or 500?

Dosing regimin I saw was 500 mg/ day for 10 days. Also note that this is for chloroquine phosphate (,salt) which is 300 mg base.

[paleotn]

28. 1 gram?! Nope.

[moriah]

29. Hey, I was going by the sourced article which states 1 gram...

... was the daily dose being recommended for treating coronavirus.

Sue the original article.

[paleotn]

38. No worries.

Harsh in my response and I apologize. Bloomberg is playing scary stuff. Not intentionally, I'm sure, but it doesn't help. I'm no expert, but my better half has background and the initial data shows significant promise. She's been digging around in published work on this and other things the last several days and thinks it's very interesting. I figure whatever works is good. IQ45 heard it and latch onto a new word. But, if you ask him about it right now, he'd have no idea what you're talking about. He's an orange parrot.

[marble falls]

46. Its a drug used for a long time with millions of patients succesfully ...

Any number of the drugs I've taken for COPD and cancer could have killed my in a medical "misadventure".

[TexasProgresive]

16. I was thinking the same thing- The dose is 1 gram with doubling it to 2

may be fatal. I read the article by following the link.

[paleotn]

27. Bingo.

[hlthe2b]

2. The irresponsibility of Trump & his administration continues to surpass even my wildest imagination

[rickyhall]

4. Dump's a doctor, too? Amazing...NOT!

[cstanleytech]

5. If it came down to Donald Duck or Donald Trump I would go with Donald Duck as he is

the quack I would trust more than Trump.

[marble falls]

47. I think he's a veterinarian, too ...

he's described himself as a stable genius. Course that might mean he's really really good at shoveling bullshit, too.

[abqtommy]

7. I used lithium carbonate for many years as treatment for Bipolar 1. This medication requires

regular blood tests to prevent developing toxicity which can be fatal. The benefits of using this
treatment balanced out the dangers and I never had any problems. I think I can handle the chloroquine
safely too, knowing the risks and the benefits.

I don't understand this pearl-clutching over what, to me, is just a common-sense approach to understanding medication in general.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. Regular? Once a month? This chloroquine warning is about 3 day toxicity

Trickier, I think, when you can die from twice a single dose.

LD50 for lithium carbonate is more like about 50 to 100 times an individual dose, if I am reading drugbank.ca correctly. Much much bigger headroom.

I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice.

[rpannier]

10. The real question is

Do you play one on TV?

[Roy Rolling]

15. Pearl Clutching?

One word: thalidomide.

[marble falls]

48. Don't take it while pregnate. Its still being used ...

Thalidomide: Research advances in cancer and other ...
[Search domain www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-depth/thalidomide/art-20046534] https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/cancer/in-depth/thalidomide/art-20046534
Research into potential uses for thalidomide has determined that thalidomide may be an effective treatment for several conditions. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved thalidomide (Thalomid) for treating: Skin lesions caused by leprosy (erythema nodosum leprosum) Multiple myeloma

New Uses For Thalidomide Yielding Valuable Lessons | The ...
[Search domain www.the-scientist.com/news/new-uses-for-thalidomide-yielding-valuable-lessons-57636] https://www.the-scientist.com/news/new-uses-for-thalidomide-yielding-valuable-lessons-57636

New Uses For Thalidomide Yielding Valuable Lessons Sidebar: Researchers Explore Thalidomide's Therapeutic Potential Firms are focusing on getting the teratogen to market to treat serious diseases; if successful, it may inspire fresh looks at other compounds. Thirty-five years after the effects of thalidomide horrified the world, the drug is ...
Thalidomide: New Uses for an Old Drug - Medscape
[Search domain www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406384] https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/406384

Thalidomide may have a role in treating severe, disabling conditions that do not respond to standard anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive therapies. ... Thalidomide: New Uses for an Old Drug .
Thalidomide: New Cancer Uses for an Old Drug
[Search domain www.uspharmacist.com/article/thalidomide-new-cancer-uses-for-an-old-drug] https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/thalidomide-new-cancer-uses-for-an-old-drug

Thalidomide in combination with dexamethasone is approved for use in multiple myeloma. Current study data show promising results for hepatocellular carcinoma, prostate, neuroendocrine, and ovarian cancers, but larger studies are needed to fully define the role of thalidomide in these cancers.

[rpannier]

53. Sorry for the late reply

It's from a Bayer commercial from the 70's
The actor played a doctor in the series Emergency
In the commercial he says, "I'm not a doctor, but I play one on TV and when people ask me which aspirin I recommend..."

[rpannier]

9. Trump and his followers are free to take as much of it as they want

I will not stop them

[marybourg]

11. Took it for 15 years.

Never was I warned about this, and there may have been days when I accidentally took a second dose. It was my first chronic drug, and I had no system at first for preventing missing or double doses. I feel very skeptical about this report.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

12. Meaningless without dosage. Chronic use very different from the acute use for the virus.

Chronic use is about 400 mg per WEEK (per rxlist.com) for malaria prophylactic, much less than the acute use for the virus. That is less than about 1/10 of what seems to be suggest for a one day dose for the virus and about 1/20 of the limit. It is more for lupus, more like 400 mg per day.

For the virus it is a huge dose to whack it hard. If you can get an idea of the physical quantity of a gram, it is substantial.

[marybourg]

13. Oh, I see. Thanx.

[GumboYaYa]

22. South Korea has been dosing 50mg a day for 10 days

China dosed 40mg twice a day for ten days. Both saw distinct improvement in Covid-19 patients. It seems like a dose of 50mg a day is tolerated and has efficacy.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

25. Thanks. Not sure what the final recommendations (if any) will be for N America. . . . nt

[blueinredohio]

24. I take 200 mg twice a day for lupus.

I was told by my doctor after taking it for so long it affects your eyes so make sure you get your eyes examined. I also have glaucoma so I see an ophthalmologist. He keeps an eye (no pun intended) on it.

[MuseRider]

34. You should have a little eye chart.

Plaquenil is a little different, I assume that is the drug you mean? I took it for years for my RA. I was given a little chart, it was just a black piece of paper with white lines through it and I was to check both eyes each morning and make sure they all lined up. I bet your eye doctor would supply you with one of those, it would be safer to check each morning I would think.

[blueinredohio]

39. I have an appointment the end of next month I'll say something to him then. Thanks.

[Drahthaardogs]

50. A gram is about 1/10 th teaspoon

A teaspoon of salt is 4-5 grams

[duforsure]

14. Why is this being accepted and normalized now?

We're in a national health and financial crisis while a sitting president refuses to do his job, refuses taking responsibility, ignoring warnings and attacks those that tell the truth, spreads misinformation, lies daily to the American people, and is corrupt and vengeful to those that won't. Praise him and lie for him. Why aren't there calls being made now for his resignation for his complete failure on everything, and for his incompetence? He's destroying our country now, possibly with putins help, and destroying our way of life, while claiming he's making America great again, and it's all bs and propaganda from a serial liar and crook.

[Richard D]

17. 45* saw it on Fox news.

That's the source of his information.

[neohippie]

18. What about this Japanese drug

I read this report that said this Japanese flu drug was safe and effective and used in China


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/18/japanese-flu-drug-clearly-effective-in-treating-coronavirus-says-china

Japanese flu drug 'clearly effective' in treating coronavirus, says China
Shares in Fujifilm Toyama Chemical, which developed favipiravir, surged after praise by Chinese official following clinical trials

Medical authorities in China have said a drug used in Japan to treat new strains of influenza appeared to be effective in coronavirus patients, Japanese media said on Wednesday.

Zhang Xinmin, an official at China’s science and technology ministry, said favipiravir, developed by a subsidiary of Fujifilm, had produced encouraging outcomes in clinical trials in Wuhan and Shenzhen involving 340 patients.

“It has a high degree of safety and is clearly effective in treatment,” Zhang told reporters on Tuesday.

Patients who were given the medicine in Shenzhen turned negative for the virus after a median of four days after becoming positive, compared with a median of 11 days for those who were not treated with the drug, public broadcaster NHK said.

In addition, X-rays confirmed improvements in lung condition in about 91% of the patients who were treated with favipiravir, compared to 62% or those without the drug.

Also why aren't we looking at low level UVC lighting that can kill airborne bacteria and viruses like this product


https://purolighting.com/products/


https://www.genengnews.com/topics/translational-medicine/uv-light-that-is-safe-for-humans-but-bad-for-bacteria-and-viruses/

Interestingly, several years ago, Dr. Brenner and his colleagues hypothesized that a narrow spectrum of ultraviolet light called far-UVC could kill microbes without damaging healthy tissue. Moreover, the researchers demonstrated that far-UVC light was effective at killing MRSA (methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) bacteria, a common cause of surgical wound infections, but without harming human or mouse skin.

“Far-UVC light has a very limited range and cannot penetrate through the outer dead-cell layer of human skin or the tear layer in the eye, so it's not a human health hazard,” Dr. Brenner noted. “But because viruses and bacteria are much smaller than human cells, far-UVC light can reach their DNA and kill them.”

Influenza virus spreads from person to person mainly through fine liquid droplets, or aerosols, that become airborne when people with flu cough, sneeze, or talk. The current study was designed to test if far-UVC light could efficiently kill aerosolized influenza virus in the air, in a setting similar to a public space.

In this study, aerosolized H1N1 virus—a common strain of flu virus—was released into a test chamber and exposed to very low doses of 222-nm far-UVC light. A control group of aerosolized virus was not exposed to the UVC light. The far-UVC light efficiently inactivated the flu viruses, with about the same efficiency as conventional germicidal UV light.

“We show for the first time that far-UVC efficiently inactivates airborne aerosolized viruses, with a very low dose of 2?mJ/cm2 of 222-nm light inactivating >95% of aerosolized H1N1 influenza virus,” the authors wrote. “Continuous very low dose-rate far-UVC light in indoor public locations is a promising, safe and inexpensive tool to reduce the spread of airborne-mediated microbial diseases.”

Here is another product


https://sterilray.com/

[MosheFeingold]

19. My son took Chlorquine

Every day for 8 years while serving in Vietnam.

It’s a very safe drug, but it is a drug and you have to follow instructions.

If my son had taken Tylenol for 8 years, he’d have died of liver failure.

This is a fantastic discovery. Chloroquine is not only cheap, it’s widely distributed in the third world where this disease will likely cause mass devastation.

[CountAllVotes]

20. Suicide is one of the side effects

You really must wonder where exactly this "suggestion" is coming from.

It is of no use and they know this already.

How many will try it anyway being der fuhrer said it was so beautiful?

Damn liar!

[GumboYaYa]

23. This article is bunk. It is not correct.

The dosage in China was 40mg a day twice a day. In South Korea it was 50 mg a day for 10 days. No one is dosing a gram a day. And they were dosing hydroxychloroquine not chlroroquine. Hydroxy has less toxicity.

[sigpooie]

26. Neohippy, you nailed it. These are the things that seem

To work the best. Other thing that is working well in the plants in china is ionic silver foggers.
That Japanese drug has been around for a while and seems to be clear winner of what to do now.

[MuseRider]

33. I believe the FDA approved it

last week?

My husband is a retired doc and he reads all the stuff and tells me about it.

I do not recall anyone dosing at that amount, that is pretty high but this drug has been used for a very long time, I cannot imagine they are just now calling it toxic. It must be a dosage problem.

[CountAllVotes]

35. Rachel Maddow interviewed a scientist on her program last night

He said it was of no use.

NO USE = none!

Fake news but for real fake news this time around.

I will certainly believe a qualified scientist a lot more than dump!

[MuseRider]

37. My response

came from scientists. I don't listen to Trump if he can be avoided. Strict medical backgrounds here with constant reading of journals, especially now. There are always mixed messages when something like this happens. Also....I don't think a response from the FDA in a medical journal is akin to one from Trump.

[CountAllVotes]

40. Did you see the interview I speak of?

n/t

[MuseRider]

41. One doctor on Rachel Maddow?

Nope. I live among doctors, I was a nurse and I know better than to get my info on a political news show. ONE doctor on her show will not change the information I have from hundreds of other doctors.

Once there is a large agreement among them that it is dangerous then yes, mind changes. One additional point you seem to not recall is that NOBODY doses in that amount.

This drug has been around and used for many many many years and there are many variants of it.

Political news shows are not a good place to get medical information, especially coming from one source or a small source. Look beyond at the organizations, not political but medical.

[MuseRider]

42. To add to this

we just heard from one of our sons, whose doctor wrote him a prescription for this drug, that he cannot get it in any of the pharmacies around him. He lives in a large city and all pharmacies are backed up and have a long order out for more. It seems that many doctors are ordering this for their patients.

Make of it what you will, we all have the right to choose how and where we get our information and what to believe. It seems this has been passed by the FDA at safe dosage levels and the pharmacies are scrambling to get it.

[GumboYaYa]

45. I have been hearing a rumor for the past few days that Bayer is about to make a large donation

of the drug to the US. I hope that is true.

[CountAllVotes]

43. Straight talk on the search for a coronavirus cure

Dr. David Ho, director of the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center, talks with Rachel Maddow about the consideration of existing drugs for the treatment of coronavirus infection and the prospects and timeline for an eventual cure.

https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/straight-talk-on-the-search-for-a-coronavirus-cure-81005125933

You might want to take 5 mins. and listen to this interview.

[GumboYaYa]

44. I saw this interview and the doctor said a few things relevant here

First he said the most expedient solution will be repurposing an already approved drug that has some efficacy in Covid-19.. That is what we are trying to do with hydroxychloroquine.

Second he said that there is evidence and statements that the drug shortens the duration of covid-19. This is also supported by statements from other areas where they have been using it as a frontline treatment.

Finally he says that there is no data to understand that the use actually reduces mortality rates. Which is to be expected in a broad health use. There is no control group in actual health care usage so there is no ability to compare the end points of the patients relative to a control.

So now the FDA is doing clinical studies to develop this information, but more importantly to get a dosage recommendation for doctors.

In the world of drug development where I invest we have been trying to get the FDA to use actual health use data to expedite approval processes in emergency, life-saving uses. This is a good example of that opportunity. We have actual usage that shows some efficacy at dosages from 60mcgs a day to 400mgs per day. We know 60mcgs a day is low level tox risk, so we should go ahead and authorize 60mcgs per day now IMO. We can up dosage recs as we get more data.

[GumboYaYa]

36. Here is a more detailed article on the South Korea use

https://techstartups.com/2020/03/16/new-academic-study-reveals-counter-anti-malaria-pill-chloroquine-may-highly-effective-treating-coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR2Ou-ClAsH2yD8V8Yp9IKm_4FWeT8zAqSU0qXIT5OJ-ifXe65waFtB7MAs

The article is saying dosage of 400mgs per day of hydroxy. So I have seen reports of usage from 60mcgs per day up to 400mgs per day,. There appears to be a lot of confusion here and that is what the FDA is trying to resolve. All dosages shown are less than a gram a day and for short time periods, so the original article still seems off the mark.

I wish the FDA would go ahead and recommend wide usage at 60mcgs per day right now.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

51. So let's hurry up and approve that so the dotard will be happy.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

52. "... dosages as little as two grams"?

Doesn't "two grams" of most medicine seem like a bit much? Most of mine are measured in milligrams or micrograms, not whole grams.

I know something about whisky. An ounce of whisky might take the edge off watching Trump on TV. A hundred ounces of whisky will kill a horse.

This "two gram" warning seems a bit meaningless.