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[Omaha Steve]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Omaha Steve) on Sat May 9, 2020, 03:34 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[bucolic_frolic]

1. The Russian People suffered immensely and died in great numbers in WWII

They bore the brunt of Hitler's armies when they were new and strong.

Have historians cracked the mind of Stalin? Joe Stalin was quite a diplomat, and very astute, when he wanted to be, in his meetings with FDR for example. Yet he ruled with brutality on his people at many points, pitted his underlings against one another, and drove his armies to exhaustion and depletion. Jekyll and Hyde personality.

[mitch96]

5. The last I read it was 20 million soldiers and civilians died in WW2

Stalin killed millions before the war also.. The Russians in the first half of the 20th century took a beating...
That's one of the things the Russians, Russian government and Putin hate about the Allies and the US especially. They wanted us to shed our blood and treasure way before we were ready, so as to take the pressure off of them... FDR and Churchill did not play that game...
We sent them food,clothes, shoes ,trucks and planes..
It seemed the Russian plan was to throw men and material at the Nazis and wear them down..
m

[levp]

7. Respectfully disagree

For reference, you are referring to the following program that was proposed by President Roosevelt:
Wikipedia: Lend-Lease
By the way, from the same source:

Opposition to the Lend-Lease bill was strongest among isolationist Republicans in Congress

In other words, Lend-Lease was never a "Russian plan"...

Vital importance of the Lend-Lease program was widely (albeit unofficially) accepted in the Soviet Union (same above source):

He [Stalin] stated bluntly that if the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war.

However, conflating Putin/Stalin and Russian government with Soviet people who took part in, and/or became victims of, World War II is, to put it mildly, unproductive.

In regards to the notion that "Russians... hate about the Allies and the US especially", let me assure you that outside of official Soviet/Russian propaganda, there was never any "hate" against Allies in general and US in particular. Now anger, on the other hand, could be a different story indeed...

I have first-person accounts from several relatives who survived WWII and Holocaust, all of whom were Jewish and none of whom were fans of Stalin (known antisemite: Wikipedia: Stalin and antisemitism).

For the next story, please remember that the Second Front by Allies in Europe was not open until 1944 - Wikipedia: Second Front
My grandfather was drafted in early July 1941 and is MIA since October 1941.
My grandmother, who waited for him until her death in 1990, told me once how when she and my father (then 8) were in evacuation in Kazakhstan in 1943 (a year before the Second Front was open and when Soviet Union was the only significant force against Nazis in Europe), there was distribution of clothes received from the US under the Lend-Lease program. She was assigned a nice leather winter coat, which she refused to take. She said: "Let them [Americans] take back their coat, and give me my husband back instead." She also later said that "Americans try to solve everything by throwing money at a problem... if Allies would open Second Front back in June 1941, everything could have been very different..."

In conclusion, may I suggest for any interested person to visit US Holocaust Memorial Museum online archives on United States role in the Holocaust (spoiler: prior to 1944, it wasn't great)...
And in general, I doubt you'll find anyone who's hands are clean. Just two further examples: Soviet Union executed Raoul Wallenberg, and US didn't apologize for it's part in MS Saint Louis fate until 2012 (only due to it being during the Obama administration, no doubt): Wikipedia: MS St. Louis.

As one tourist guide in Lyon (France) told me on the subject of WWII, "History is complicated". Indeed.

[Igel]

10. You focus too much.

It wasn't lend-lease that was the primary complaint from the Soviet leadership, in propaganda during the war and especially after.

In fact, Russian war novels from during and just after the war had odd references to lend-lease materiel and food in them because the writers were at or near the front and tried to present things fairly accurately when they could. Enough fighters had been there that falseness not in the interests of appropriate nationalism would have been a big turn off.

But in re-editions a few years after the wars, the passages were tacitly rewritten to remove anything that could easily be labeled lend-lease.

By that time the standard trope was that the Allies sat out the war so the USSR would be beaten or rendered beatable, and the only reason that VE-Day happened when it was was that it was clear the USSR would push and take Berlin, and then continue to take the rest of Europe. And the Western capitalists wanted to preserve their territory. Lesser incarnations of this CT was that the Allies wanted the USSR to bear the brunt, and only step in once things got safe.

I've seen all kinds of nifty maps and such. One thing they don't ever mention is Africa, and there is no Pacific War until the USSR delivered the final thrust to Japan that triggered its surrender. Until Normandy, all the Allies did was sit and applaud as Mother Russia was pummeled by the Wehrmacht. All they see is their own pain. The Pacific War started for Russia in early-mid August, 1945. When it looked like Japan was going to fall and Russia wanted Japanese territory, having taken its time transshipping soldiers and materiel to the East. Pearl Harbor and Bataan no more mattered to Moscow than Leningrad did to Washington.

[melm00se]

6. The Soviets

in many ways were just as complicit to the start of WWII as NAZI Germany.

The NAZIs and USSR signed the Molotov-Ribbontrop Pact 9 days before the NAZI invasion of Germany on September 1. The USSR signed a ceasefire with the Japanese over battles at Khalkhin Gol (along the border between occupied China and the USSR) on September 15. Once alleviated of the fear of a 2 front conflict, the Soviets piled over the Polish border on September 17.

After Poland was divided up, the NAZIs and Soviets amended their non-aggression pact on on September 28 with the German–Soviet Frontier Treaty. Embedded in the agreement was language for both parties to suppress the Polish people to prevent Polish attacks against either NAZI Germany or the Soviets. This directly led to the numerous German and the Soviet's Katyn Forest massacre.

Then don't forget the Winter War where the USSR invaded Finland as the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact ceded Finland to the Soviet sphere of influence.

[levp]

9. Yes and no

All facts listed in your post are correct, no argument there.

However, I strongly and decisively disagree with your conclusion that "Soviets in many ways were just as complicit to the start of WWII as NAZI Germany" (emphasis mine).

In that war, there was only one side that were Nazis - and that's Nazis (Axis). And nothing that Stalin did can take away from how the people from, say, Ukraine (my birth country) fought (and in large numbers, died) so that you and I can worry today about debating on DU and not escaping Endlösung.

[Renew Deal]

2. It cannot be overstated how weak many republicans are.

They cannot stick to a plan that is difficult, but beneficial to themselves and people around them. They run around in fear carrying their guns like they will shoot a disease. It is profound visible weakness.

[oldsoftie]

3. Great interview. SO many people seem to NEED the "panic". Especially now. Not me.

I'm not reckless. But I'm not chicken little either. GA has reopened to a certain extent. I'm being cautious; wearing a mask when needed, keeping the sanitizer handy (which i've always done anyway). I dont know how it will go. But I hope it goes very well. To hope anything else would just make you an asshole.

[sarge43]

4. She's Mother Russia personified. n/t

[levp]

8. In the best sense of this expression

Thank you, Ms. Efremova, for your service