Two Venezuelan opposition activists shot dead

[Bacchus4.0]

Source: Reuters

Two Venezuelan opposition activists shot dead
http://news.yahoo.com/chavez-showcases-projects-capriles-hits-hard-venezuela-vote-002051661.html

CARACAS (Reuters) - Gunmen shot and killed two local leaders of parties backing presidential challenger Henrique Capriles on Saturday in the worst violence of a volatile campaign before Venezuela's election next weekend.

Capriles' party, Primero Justicia (First Justice), said the gunmen fired from a van that witnesses identified as belonging to state oil company PDVSA or the local mayor's office during a rally in the agricultural state of Barinas.

The government of President Hugo Chavez, who is seeking re-election, confirmed the deaths and vowed the perpetrators would be brought to justice. Interior Minister Tareck El Aissami said the circumstances of the attack were still under investigation.

Venezuela is awash with guns, and violent crime is frequently cited as voters' No. 1 concern.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/chavez-showcases-projects-capriles-hits-hard-venezuela-vote-002051661.html

[Common Sense Party]

1. They were backing Chavez' rival? The shootings were purely coincidental, then.

Their deaths had NOTHING to do with their politics.

[loli phabay]

2. lol i see what you did there, bravo

[Igel]

15. Yes, it's called parody.

It's only slightly different from what he's parodying, but said in the same spirit of earnest truthfulness and implicit open-mindedness.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

11. But but...

The government of President Hugo Chavez, who is seeking re-election, confirmed the deaths and vowed the perpetrators would be brought to justice.

[hughee99]

40. You're forgetting about the CIA backed false flag possibility. n/t

[tiny elvis]

55. where dat dam van, primero justicia's link to gov conspiracy?

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=10717&ArticleId=337488
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=596009&CategoryId=10717
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/suspect-arrested-in-2-killings-during-opposition-caravan-in-venezuela-justice-minister-says/2012/09/30/115d9b0a-0b1b-11e2-97a7-45c05ef136b2_story.html

[tiny elvis]

3. state oil company PDVSA or the local mayor's office

that line does not work without explanation

too much typing for reuters
do they twitter?

[joshcryer]

5. The colors of the mayors office and PDVSA are similar.

There's a reason they attacked the photographer, too. They wanted to hide the evidence as is oh so common with Chavistas.

[JackRiddler]

27. There you go, you've already convicted the unknown perpetrators.

Shame on you.

[joshcryer]

38. What? There will be no credible investigation. Are you kidding me?

Berroterán Alexander, a well known Chavista, shot two people in an assassination attempt against Capriles. He was never arrested.

The head of PDVSA had two refinery explosions in as many weeks. Still on the job.

The foreign minister of the country (ie, Sec. of State) called Capriles a "f***ot" and wasn't even reprimanded.

I am merely pointing out that this is the modus operandi of the Chavistas.

[joshcryer]

4. Three dead now.

Chavista scum.

[JackRiddler]

28. Flying the colors for the CIA-backed candidate as usual.

[joshcryer]

33. The more popular candidate, actually.

[wordpix]

51. certainly are a lot of people out in the streets supporting Chavez' opponent

[Bodhi BloodWave]

31. as i asked in the other thread on this topic, what evidence do you have that it was chavistas

that was behind this?

[joshcryer]

32. Eyewitness accounts and the fact that it's par for the course for them.

We have video and photographic evidence that one of them tried to assassinate Capriles a few months back, so I'm inclined to believe this instance even though there isn't much evidence. Chavista's take the cameras away from reporters on scene.



The Chavista's have been blocking Capriles and his supporters from attending campaign events on several occasions.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

37. so the witnesses got a good look at the people shooting then?

or are we as i asked on the other thread placing guilt based on the color of a van?

It seems to me that you have already acted as a judge and jury on who is at fault.

[joshcryer]

39. There won't be a credible investigation.

So it doesn't really matter, does it?

I suppose it is just a coincidence that the only people killed were opposition members.

Just basic street crime, right?

The first reply to this thread is priceless, because that's what's happening here.

You look at the police who murdered Karen Berendique (and who, in a twist, were defended here on DU). Not one of them was charged. The same is going to happen here. Nothing will come of it.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

41. more or less as I suspected then, its your bias and dislike of Chavez that has you assign blame

I was hoping you knew something I didn't about what happened but it seems that's not the case.

[joshcryer]

42. I just know the character of Chavistas.

What you do here is dismiss the evidence I provide in other scenarios that would make this seem more credible.

I admit I don't currently have more information than that and I highly doubt anyone will ever be charged for these murders.

But surely the "coincidence" scenario is just ridiculous as post #1 points out.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

46. i prefer to have some proper knowledge rather then assume things since everybody knows what

often happens when you assume things.

And you are correct, i do somewhat dismiss what happened in other scenarios since they are not related to this one(its far to easy to make unrelated links and wrong conclusions) and I'm sure if i looked into past events i could find some events that i could point at as evidence supporting an opinion that some of Capriles supporters did it to discredit Chavez(not saying thats what happened nor do i really believe so since there is no evidence, but its just as valid a claim as automatically saying it was chavistas )

and in regards to what i wrote above in the first (), a twist on something i read on DU a while back

fact/evidence 1: my house has a broken window

fact/evidence 2: there is an unusual rock inside my house

conclusion: Aliens broke my window so they could get inside and spy on me, it has to be true since i have 2 pieces of evidence to support my view

[joshcryer]

48. That's not a similar conclusion though.

I'm not, for example, blaming the CIA (now that would be a conclusion that would be difficult to jump to).

They apparently arrested someone so we'll see if we can find out how closely tied to the chavistas they are.

They're not releasing a name which is unusual.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

49. true its not a similar conclusion, nor did i really mean for it to be

it was mostly just to point out that if you have decided on an answer then you can often look at past events and find things to support said answer.

In my eyes you seem to want to blame the chavistas thus you look for similarities that have happened in the past to support said claim, whereas if I were to decide that it had to have been some of Capriles supporters wanting to frame Chavez then I likewise could find similarities in past events to strengthen my claim(I think both of us agree that having an answer and then looking for supporting evidence is the wrong way to decide things yes )

I hope we will learn more information on who was arrested and his motives et al tho, if guilty i hope they throw the book at him no matter who he supported(but i refuse to blame most supporters for the actions of a few no matter who they support)

addendum: while I admit I may be wrong about your stance on wanting to assigning blame its how it has comes across to me when reading your posts on this subject which is all i can base it on, so if i am wrong then i apologize

[napoleon_in_rags]

6. Yeah, there's some history there.

Check out John Pilger's The War On Democracy documentary. Regarding the 2002 coup against Chavez, he presents footage and the CNN correspondent of the generals making comments about the deaths (supposedly caused by Chavez supporters) before the opposition march, and the shootings, happened - so they knew it was coming in advance. This info, I believe, was widely presented to the public after the uprising that lead to Chavez being re-instated. So the point is, don't expect a big reaction to this in Venezuela.

[joshcryer]

7. There was already an assassination attempt on Capriles by a well known Chavista.

And this is the third time Chavista's have attacked Capriles rallies.

It is well known that the Chavistas have a strategy to provoke violence at campaign events.

Note: "provocar situaciones de agitacion politica"

Basically: "Provoke situations that agitate politically."

[napoleon_in_rags]

56. responding a couple weeks late here, but...

The situation is this: There was a coup attempt in 2006 with ties to foreign money and the people found out. Just for the sake of thought experiment, imagine it here:
1) Romney/Obama wins the next election, some are positive, some are negative about it, but none are militant.
2) Opposition plans a protest in DC of the prez. But when they get there, they are redirected from the route they thought they would take, toward the white house.
3) Snipers open up on the crowd, killing numerous people. The prez is blamed.
4) The military shows up to "stop the violence against the protesters", and to accomplish this, they make the president disappear.
5) most of the media talks about how lucky we are to be rid of the prez, a new prez from out of nowhere is installed.
6) a few small radio stations talk about hinky parts of the story. It turns out the statement made by the generals about the shooting, was recorded before the shooting for instance. It turns out the generals who made the pres disappeared were all funded by China.
7) The people rise up, and the generals and the replacement prez get evacuate the country, headed for China. The people put the prez they voted for back in.

Okay, so what happens now? The first thing is, whoever was elected prez, he's gonna be the next four term prez. Why? Because its no longer about Dem vs. Repub, its about national sovereignty vs. foreign control. What happened was so tricky and crafty, people will hold on to the one person they KNOW is the real thing for as long as they can. That's what happened with Castro in Cuba for instance.

Its ALL about the point where it becomes seen as a foreign invasion. As soon as opposition takes the foreign money and is seen fleeing the country after a failed coup, its all over. The reason violent Chavistas don't draw concern is because looking at them its literally unclear whether their intent is fascistic domestic violence, or self defense of their nation against foreign forces that would kidnap their democratically elected leaders, as happened in 2006. This is one of the many reasons we should learn to mind our own business, and let other countries work through their own process.

[Ash_F]

57. Well put.

To put it in an America perspective was helpful. Many American DUers seem to think there should be one set of rules for themselves and another set of rules for the rest of the world.

Mandela was blamed for the violent acts of a few of his supporters as well. At the time, he was reviled by the American right. History has exonerated him and it has now become unpopular to use that argument to defame him.

[Judi Lynn]

8. You may recall the opposition has been using "guarimba" (violent protest) for years.

Here's one quick reference:

Roberto "Robert" Alonso was born in Cienfuegos, Cuba, on August 23rd 1950. He arrived in Venezuela in 1961 as a political refugee with his family, including his sister María Conchita Alonso, now a Hollywood movie star and his brother Ricardo, a prominent lawyer in Caracas.

Alonso has been an anti-Castro activist since 1972 and a journalist since 1980. He has written 5 books: "Los Generales de Castro", "Memorias de Cienfuegos", "Alertas", "Los Evangélicos" and "Regresando del Mar de la Felicidad". “Que la Bête Meure”, a novel written by Gerard de Villiers was inspired on the “Paramilitaries Affair”, related to Alonso and his farm, Daktari.

He is considered the father of [font size="4" color="red"] “La Guarimba”,[/font] an uprising technique designed by him to overthrow Hugo Chavez.[font size="4" color="red"] “La Guarimba” [/font]was enforced in Venezuela between the 27th of February and the 6th of March, 2004, some Venezuelans attended his call blocking the streets and paralyzing the country with burning garbage and tires. Alonso is against any negotiation with the Venezuelan authorities and promotes deposing the government by means of civil disobedience.

http://www.reference.com/browse/getting+some+shut+eye

[center]~~~~~[/center]

.....According to Chacón, the paramilitaries captured Sunday in the outskirts of Caracas were part of the[font size="4" color="red"] “Plan Guarimba 2? [/font]aimed at creating a new wave of disturbances in the Venezuelan capital and other cities over the next few weeks.

In late February and early March, anti-Chávez groups threw up barricades and held violent protests along the roads leading into middle-class neighbourhoods of Caracas and other cities.

During the disturbances and the crackdown by security forces, 10 people were killed and around 50 were injured.

The technique of setting up flaming roadblocks was dubbed[font size="4" color="red"] ‘guarimba’ [/font](refuge) by radical anti-Chávez activists – including Alonso – who, over the Internet, shared slogans and instructions for keeping alive that form of struggle.

The Democratic Bloc, a small right-wing opposition group, says people opposed to Chávez should set up [font size="4" color="red"] ”a small guarimba” [/font]to provoke the government to call the armed forces to the streets. In that context, according to the group, officers would mount a more or less massive disobedience against the (pro-Chávez) army brass and the government.

http://www.ipsnews.net/2004/05/venezuela-colombian-army-implicated-in-paramilitarys-cross-border-activities/

[joshcryer]

9. That was 8 years ago and has no current connection to the opposition.

Which is composed of mainly the youth and female vote in Venezuela.

Many of Capriles current supporters were teens when that went down.

The Chavistas have an open policy of attacking Capriles supporters.



The murders of these Capriles supporters is both unsurprising and expected from the fascistic Chavistas.

[Arctic Dave]

14. "fascistic"? If Hugo Chavez is a leftist, how can he be "fascistic"?

Did you get that from a teapartiers billboard?

[joshcryer]

20. Did I mention Chavez?

I am talking about Chavistas us use fascistic style oppression to silence and intimidate the opposition.





I suppose one can see this sort of thing as "revolutionary"...

[Arctic Dave]

21. Not sure what picture is for but, OK?

Can you please give clue as to what "fascist style oppression" is?

Is that Project Runway thing?

[joshcryer]

22. Pedantry aside here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_(epithet)

[Arctic Dave]

24. The first sentence of your link.

"The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word."

Teapartiers love to make up their own definitions too.

[joshcryer]

25. Running around attacking people is oppressive.

Murdering people, more so.

When it's part of the Chavista platform, well, one must think sharply about it.

[Arctic Dave]

26. Platform? LOL

I would say that was the platform of the people who tried to murderously overthrow the government.

Hmmm, that happens to be the people your are siding with.

[joshcryer]

34. That was a decade ago most of whom were exiled.

The current opposition is not the same makeup of people that existed back then. A lot of Capriles supporters, the vast majority, were teenagers or kids when that went down.

[Igel]

17. Any breakdown on how many people were killed by the protesters.

And how many killed by those among the forces of pacification?

This would seem to be an important point of fact. We've often seen peaceful protesters facing pacification at gunpoint and the receiving end of a cudgel and noted who, actually, was responsible for and for provoking violence and death. Often we see the point fudged and finessed.

[joshcryer]

36. They're trying to make up a conspiracy where the opposition killed their own people.

But if you watch X Ray of a Lie the only people armed are Chavistas. At one point the Chavista's had actually got on top of a bridge with guns and rocks and were planning to throw rocks on the marching opposition. The police, to their credit, diverted the march so that the Chavistas couldn't murder innocent protesters.

[Peace Patriot]

10. Typical corporate bullshit article at election time in Venezuela.

Rotters oughta be ashamed, but then...they're rotters--a well earned epithet.

Para 4 is a dead giveaway:

"Venezuela is awash with guns, and violent crime is frequently cited as voters' No. 1 concern." --Rotters

So... vote against Chavez, you stupid peasants! Murder, chaos, your love of guns--all Chavez's fault! Ignore your prosperity! Ignore your free universal health care! Ignore your free education through college! Ignore benefiting from your oil! Ignore your feeling of well-being-- the Gallup poll in which you rate your own country fifth in the world on your own feeling of well-being and future prospects! Ignore your 'New Deal'! 'New Deals' are evil! They result in murder and chaos! Chavistas are going to murder you in your beds! Look how they're running around murdering innocent rightwing campaigners! Your're next! Vote for the USAID candidate, give up your 'New Deal' and the murders will stop! Believe in the rich getting richer! The rich will bring lawn order! The fascists will make you safe!

Really, it is so frigging transparent!

Who knows what the truth of this dismal event was. But one thing is certain: you will never read any follow-up from Rotters, or from the propagandists and coupsters of the corporate media within Venezuela. The fuckers aren't allowed to run 'hit piece' ads in the last weeks of an election campaign, in the rules of one of the best election systems in Latin America (according to the Carter Center and other election monitoring groups). So they do THIS! --a campaign 'hit piece' disguised as a 'news' article, which blatantly promotes this year's fascist talking point as the 'lesson' of this incident.

"Venezuela RUN BY CHAVEZ is awash with CHAVEZ guns, and CHAVEZ'S violent crime is frequently cited as voters' No. 1 concern BUT WE WON'T TELL YOU, AND WE WILL NEVER TELL, WHY VENEZUELANS STILL VOTE FOR CHAVEZ, TIME AND AGAIN, BY BIG MARGINS. THEY'RE JUST STUPID PEASANTS ANYWAY VOTING FOR THIS KILLER AND CHAOS-MAN AND DICTATOR AND INCOMPETENT WHO IS SO TYRANNICAL HE CAN'T STOP STREET CRIME. VOTE AGAINST HIM! VOTE AGAINST MURDER AND CHAOS! VOTE FOR CIA LAWN ORDER! THEY KNOW WHAT'S GOOD FOR YOU! THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN IN COUNTRIES RUN BY EXXON MOBIL! BELIEVE US! AND WHEN YOU VOTE FOR CHAVEZ ANYWAY, DESPITE ALL THIS MURDER AND CHAOS, WE'LL BE ABLE TO SAY, 'IN AN ELECTION MARKED BY VIOLENCE AGAINST OPPOSITION CAMPAIGN WORKERS...BLAH, BLAH, BLAH." --Rotters

Rotten. To. The. Core.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

12. Life is easy when everything that challenges your beliefs

can be written off as a conspiracy.

[Peace Patriot]

16. Sorry, but chavistas just don't do this sort of thing--shoot people!

Last edited Mon Oct 1, 2012, 11:27 AM - Edit history (1)

And, furthermore, they don't have to, in order to win elections. They win on ideas and on factual, provable government performance. For the instance...

The UN Economic Commission on Latin America and the Caribbean recently designated Venezuela "THE most equal country in Latin America" on income distribution.

The Gallup poll recently reported that Venezuelans rate their own country fifth in the world on their own well-being and future prospects.

The recent Mitofsky-Mexico study of all polls rated Chavez the fourth most popular leader in the Americas (64% average approval rating).

Venezuela has one of the lowest unemployment rates in Latin America. It has met ALL of its Millennium goals, including cutting poverty in half and cutting extreme poverty by more than 70%, and dramatically improving access to health care and education.

Rotters wants Venezuelans to forget all this and go for fascist 'lawn order.' And when Venezuelans vote for their 'New Deal' once again, Rotters wants to be able to say that it's because chavistas shoot opposition campaigners.

Their vile implication is VERY CLEAR.

And I think we're going to find out, when Chavez wins his third term*, that, a) Venezuelans don't blame Chavez for street crime, and they know he doesn't approve of it and wants to stop it, and b) they trust Chavez to solve this problem--as he and his government have solved so many other problems (lack of health care, lack of educational opportunities, Exxon Mobil taking all the oil profits, etc.) and they don't trust Capriles to do anything but serve the rich 1%.

Guess who Rotters serves, 24/7, year in, year out?

-------------------------

*(Just to point out: Franklin Delano Roosevelt was elected to four terms as president of the U.S., and died in his fourth term. Then, in the mid-1950s, the Republicans rammed a bill through Congress limiting the president to two terms, in order to prevent a 'New Deal' from ever happening here again and to begin to dismantle the one we had (which they have almost completed doing). In Venezuela, the people get to vote on the provisions of their own constitution--and they voted to lift the term limits on the president and on state governors. They wanted Chavez to be able to run again, partly because they approve of their 'New Deal' and want it to continue, and partly because they believe--like Thomas Jefferson and most of the founders of our own country--that term limits are undemocratic. They argued that there is no reason whatever why someone who serves the people well should not be elected time and again, in a democratic system with honest elections. We had that once--an honest election system. The Venezuelans have it now--one of the best in Latin America, according to all independent authorities, and, if the truth were known, probably one of the best in the world. Rotters and the Corporate 'News' media of course want to sully it, since they're losing THEIR campaign against Chavez.)

[joshcryer]

19. Bullshit, Berroterán Alexander is a chavista and he tried to kill Capriles.

That is a fact. The pictures prove it. All eye witness accounts prove it.

They're not going to win this time around which is why they've resorted to high handed violent tactics to suppress the opposition.

[wordpix]

23. do you really think Chavez will allow fair elections when he's shut down all unbiased news outlets

except one? And that one is constantly being threatened.

This is not good governance. Venezuela is a place where people are regularly kidnapped off the street just for appearing well dressed or even middle class. And if you're found to be important, the kidnap victim is "sold" to professional kidnappers who know how to up the ransom and get the money.

This nation is not a secure place to live. And the poor are still desperately poor, living in slums without roofs or doors, not to mention modern means of sanitation.

[joshcryer]

18. They are not going to vote for him this time.

Watch and see.

And wonder why.

[UTUSN]

13. Huguito "vowed the perpetrators would be brought to justice" translated: Orgy with Naomi CAMPBELL nt

[hrmjustin]

29. I wish these people could find some peace in their politics

[Common Sense Party]

52. I wish we could, too.

[Comrade Grumpy]

30. Meanwhile, the Colombian state is complicit in the murders of thousands.

With the help of billions of US tax dollars, yet some of the loudest defenders of democracy have nothing to say about that. Is there a double standard at work?

[joshcryer]

35. Colombia and Venezuela both have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.

If you knew my posts on the subject you'd know I sympathize greatly with the people in both countries' murderous regimes.

The key is that when you point out that over 100k people have been needlessly murdered in Venezuela, "Chavez reduced poverty!" is the go to response.

[Comrade Grumpy]

45. You're comparing state-sanctioned murder to criminal violence?

That's weak sauce.

I guess I would know your posts on the subject if I ever saw them. I usually click on all the Colombia and Venezuela threads, but I never see you posting about the Colombia atrocities (which is not to say you never do), yet you can be counted on to be blowing your anti-fascist horn repeatedly in the Venezuela threads.

[joshcryer]

47. No, you are.

I do not make a distinction. FARC-AUC was criminal violence as much as barrio gangs are criminal violence.

[dipsydoodle]

43. Suspect arrested in 2 killings in Venezuela

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuela's justice minister says a suspect has been arrested after two people were killed in a shooting that erupted during an opposition campaign caravan.

Justice Minister Tareck El Aissami said in a message on Twitter on Sunday that a suspect in the double murder was detained. He didn't identify the suspect.

Opposition lawmaker Julio Cesar Reyes said on Saturday that a group of President Hugo Chavez's supporters blocked the caravan in western Barinas state and people on both sides were arguing when a gunman appeared and started shooting.

Opposition officials said both men killed were participants in a motorcade of supporters of opposition candidate Henrique Capriles.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_VENEZUELA_CAMPAIGN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-09-30-12-19-58

[joshcryer]

44. Wow, gobsmacked! "He didn't identify the suspect."

We'll see if anything comes of it.

[tiny elvis]

53. what happened to the official van the plurality of gunmen fired from?

Primero Justicia, a party, is the quoted source from reuters

an oblique accusation from an entire party is the information from reuters

who lied?

no one is accountable

mistakes were made

what van?

[tiny elvis]

54. sersly, exxonmobil supporters, whither the van?

Primero Justicia said the gunmen fired from a van that witnesses identified as belonging to state oil company PDVSA or the local mayor's office

[bitchkitty]

58. The van? It's hidden in the same place as the infamous laptop, no doubt. n/t

[Pterodactyl]

50. With Venezuela, it is hard to differentiate between political-crime and crime-crime.

Either way, the likelihood of being shot is way too high.