China Forces Are Reported to Have Shot at Tibetans
Chinese security forces on Saturday fired into a crowd of Tibetans in a restive area of Sichuan Province after they tried to take away the body of a Tibetan man who had died after setting himself on fire that morning to protest Chinese policies in the Tibetan areas, according to reports from two Tibet advocacy groups and Tibetan officials in the exile government in India.
It appeared that at least two people had been hit by gunfire, and one of those might have been killed, said Kate Saunders, a spokeswoman for International Campaign for Tibet, which is based in Washington. Ms. Saunders said the group had spoken to at least two sources.
Another group, Free Tibet, said it had confirmed reports that a Tibetan woman was shot. There were unconfirmed reports that many others were also hit, said Stephanie Brigden, the director of the group, which is based in London. Security officials in the area could not be reached for comment on Saturday night.
The violence took place in the town of Aba, known in Tibetan as Ngaba, a focal point for protests against Chinese rule and the scene of civilian deaths during a widespread Tibetan uprising in 2008. Since then, it has been the site of at least 11 self-immolations, some of them fatal. Those setting themselves on fire have mainly been monks, nuns or former members of the clergy. The monks in Aba who set themselves on fire all come from the Kirti Monastery, where anger has grown over Chinese repression of religious practices.
full: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/15/world/asia/chinese-forces-reportedly-open-fire-on-protesting-tibetans.html
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xchrom
(108,903 posts)
TheWraith
(24,331 posts)Police state, after all.
HopeHoops
(47,675 posts)
Their actions aren't new, but the story is. I'll let it ride.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)Fuck China.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)I despise the behavior of the Chinese government, but certainly not "China."
I resent your hateful statement. Do you hate her? You don't even know her? You also obviously know nothing about China. Why don't you go post on Red State.
MACARD
(105 posts)have compassion for the poor people of china for the most of them have no clue as to the atrocities that their government is willing to commit, and still don't even know what acts their government does, due to censorship of the internet most of the Chinese People have no Idea about the goings on in Tibet and don't know about the Tienanmen square incident.
psychopomp
(4,668 posts)It's hard to be there and not know what's up.
onehandle
(51,122 posts)It's a fascist regime.
I did not say fuck the Chinese.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)...or the People's Republic of China.
Taiwan is officially the Republic of China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_China
Taverner
(55,476 posts)I am sorry, but I am not pro-Tibet.
There is no "cultural genocide" going on.
At least, no more than any other group in China. And that includes the majority Han.
China, yes, is an oligarchy rife with corruption, but how much better is a theocracy?
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)you think its OK for the Chinese government to shoot at them while they attempt to collect their dead?
Thats interesting.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)No thank you
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Kill 'em all and let (whatever) sort them out?
BuddhaGirl
(3,602 posts)vultures usually eat the remains.
Not all Tibetans are buried that way, by the way. 
psychopomp
(4,668 posts)They are readily available to anyone who'd watch. A professional takes the corpse to a high point, carves it up a bit to expose the fat and flesh and walks away. Within seconds, vultures descend on their meal and reduce it to bones right away.
After that, the man returns to the bones and smashes them open, exposing the marrow so the birds can get that, too. What is left are just bones. I don't remember if they are collected to be burned, or not, but either way the corpse is gone and cannot spread disease.
BuddhaGirl
(3,602 posts)and commit cultural genocide - let's get rid of all the Buddhist Tibetans!!!
Yay for China!!
/sarcasm
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)humblebum
(5,881 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)humblebum
(5,881 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)That is all
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)I thought you understood I was clueless....
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)You toss stuff out there about how they should be allowed to be gunned down because of their religion and the separation of church and state, but never complete the circle by connecting the dots as to what one has to do with the other.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)The goal of any empire...
MACARD
(105 posts)Democracy is not just Republican or Democrat. the lack of the ability to chose is not a trait of a democracy. It is for the People of Tibet to decide how they are governed, and if they want to be ruled by religious Leaders, that is their call.
Forcing a so called Democracy is no better than forcing communism.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)humblebum
(5,881 posts)If the opposite of theist is atheist, then why would the opposite of theocracy not be atheocracy. And, there have certainly been a few atheocracies throughout recent history. Maybe theocracy was made up by atheists.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Albania under Enver Hoxa and North Korea
As can be imagined when you try to suppress thought, it didn't work
humblebum
(5,881 posts)to mention a few countries that declared themselves to be "state atheist." Definitely atheocracies.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)They discouraged it, that's true. But that's a far cry from forcing it.
"Atheocracy" Is a made up word. It means nothing.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)And, they declared their state atheism "Scientific Atheism." And similar policies were enforced in all satellite countries. China's policies were very similar.
The Atheist’s Handbook was published in Moscow in 1959 in conjunction with Khrushchev’s campaign to eliminate the remaining traces of religion in the U.S.S.R. This text attacks the Bible, the Qur’an, Christianity, and Islam. “Science,” says the Handbook, “has long since established that Jesus Christ never existed, that the figure of the alleged founder of Christianity is purely mythical.”4 And according to the Handbook, the Apostle Paul, too, turns out to be “a mythical figure.”1
1) The Atheist’s Handbook, [Sputnik Ateista], (Moscow, USSR: Gos. Izd. Politicheskoi Literatury, 1961), reproduced in English by U.S. Joint Publications Research Service (Washington, DC), 117.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)The Russian Orthodox church still existed, and still practiced
As per Paul and Jesus, they may very well have been mythical
humblebum
(5,881 posts)for instituting its own official system of state atheism, but was directly responsible for its establishment in your Albania and North Korea, as well as all Eastern European satellite countries. And, Marxist-Leninist doctrines led to state atheism is China and South Asia.
In Russia, "Of 54,457 churches in 1914, only 4, 255 remained in 1941. The number of active priests fell from 57,105 in 1914 to 5, 665 in 1941. Of the 1,498 monasteries and convents that existed in 1914, there were 38 left in 1941. None of the 4 theological academies, 57 seminaries and 40,150 other religious schools that existed in 1914 survived into 1941."
"From 1932-1937 Stalin declared the 'five year plans of atheism' and the LMG was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country."
"During the purges of 1937 and 1938, church documents record that 168,300 Russian Orthodox clergy were arrested. Of these, over 100,000 were shot."
http://www.scribd.com/
Taverner
(55,476 posts)And the Orthodox churches were a bastion for the Kulaks and White Russians.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)"From 1932-1937 Stalin declared the 'five year plans of atheism' and the League of Militant Godless was charged with completely eliminating all religious expression in the country."
Taverner
(55,476 posts)If it makes you happy, I'll include Stalinist USSR on that list
I was in the USSR during the Brezhnev era, and it was through a CHURCH group, believe it or not. After Stalin, going to church only hurt chances of party membership.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)Lenin, Stalin, and Khrushchev. There was a lull in religious persecutions during the War, and though Stalin returned to his old ways after 1945, he was more accommodating than pre-1940. Then along came Khrushchev with his renewed intensity to eliminate religion.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Goodbye Tibet?
Posted: 11/14/11 07:12 PM ET
For ten days last month I saw first-hand what the Chinese are doing in Tibet. The reports you've heard of cultural genocide are true. China is obliterating the ideas, traditions and habits of the Tibetan people.
Do we care? We'd better. China's confidence increases with each step onto the world stage. What the Chinese are doing in Tibet tells us a lot about what we can expect from them as their power grows.
It's hard to get into Tibet. I described myself as a retiree on a Bucket List trip and prayed the Chinese would not bother to Google me. I was in Nepal, waiting, when the Chinese Embassy gave me a visa just hours before the flight I'd booked to Lhasa. A short, spectacular flight across the Himalayas, and I was in the capital of Tibet.
Lhasa is a Potemkin Village. The Chinese have built an modern airport and superhighway into town. Change the language on the signs and the part of Lhasa that foreigners are supposed to see looks like a small wealthy city in Arizona. Better. Modern shops and manicured parks line the main street. The downtown is impeccably clean, there's no congestion, and the traffic signals are high-tech marvels. Late-model cars outnumber motorbikes and most of those bikes are electric so there's no hammering noise and choking fumes.
More: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-graham/goodbye-tibet_b_1093665.html
John Graham: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-graham
TigerToMany
(124 posts)It will be us next. Today children as young as 8 years old are thown in prison in Tibet just for speaking their language. As Martin Luther King once said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice anywhere". Cultural genocide goes on every day in Tibet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet
On my desk, I have a frame with Martin Niemoller's chilling words:
First they came for the Jews,
And I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the social democrats,
And I didn't speak out because I wasn't a social democrat.
I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
And I didn't speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
As unpleasant as it sounds if we don't stand up to China and poke them in the eye now we will have to deal with a much stronger and brutish enemy.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Otherwise looks like an attempt at standarization, albeit heavy handed, not cultural genocide...
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)"albeit heavy handed" - would you care to expand on how all this heavy-handedness plays out?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Culture Genocide is what we did to millions of Africans during the slave trade
Not changing the signs to Mandarin
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)The Dalai Lama would be elected President for the remainder of his life. 
Taverner
(55,476 posts)ellisonz
(27,711 posts)I have no more need for this discussion. 
humblebum
(5,881 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)Take note of who published this report....not exactly an impartial group
There is no law against religion in China, only laws against spreading it - which I will admit would be tempting to pass here...
Imagine no Mormons/Jehova's Witnesses...it's easy if you try
humblebum
(5,881 posts)several others, including presentations to the UN. The pattern of behavior is far too well established, and though the Chinese have allowed more freedom to practice religion, they are still officially state atheist. Also, according to the most recent constitution, unregistered churches are not allowed, and no church can be controlled from outside the country. Absolute control.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Pearl S Buck was the exception, not the rule
humblebum
(5,881 posts)When the Communist/atheists moved through China, they destroyed Chinese culture more than anyone before or since. Who do you think is destroying it in Tibet today? It's not missionaries.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Just sayin'
humblebum
(5,881 posts)Take a guess at who was?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Great Leap Forward + Cultural Revolution = murder on a huge scale.
But we can blame Mao squarely on Chaing Kai Shek, Christian, if I might add...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Fourth_Army_Incident
The united Communist/Nationalist Army defeated the Japanese together, and soon after, the Nationalists killed all the Communists.
As a result, the more popular leaders of the Communists were killed, creating a vacuum where Mao could come in.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)strongest link.
People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975): 40 000 000
Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
Labor Camps: 20M
Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
The Black Book of Communism, Courtois, etal.
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Marx was just a perfectly understandable critique to Classical Capitalism.
You want political philosophy that we both can agree on?
Eugene Debs
The issue is Socialism versus Capitalism. I am for Socialism because I am for humanity. We have been cursed with the reign of gold long enough. Money constitutes no proper basis of civilization. The time has come to regenerate society — we are on the eve of universal change.
Open letter to the American Railway Union, Chicago Railway Times (1 January 1897)
I am not a Labor Leader; I do not want you to follow me or anyone else; if you are looking for a Moses to lead you out of this capitalist wilderness, you will stay right where you are. I would not lead you into the promised land if I could, because if I led you in, some one else would lead you out. You must use your heads as well as your hands, and get yourself out of your present condition; as it is now the capitalists use your heads and your hands.
As quoted in "Life of Eugene V. Debs" by Stephen Marion Reynolds, in Debs : His Life, Writings and Speeches (1908) edited by Bruce Rogers and Stephen Marion Reynolds, p. 71
Wherever capitalism appears, in pursuit of its mission of exploitation, there will Socialism, fertilized by misery, watered by tears, and vitalized by agitation be also found, unfurling its class-struggle banner and proclaiming its mission of emancipation.
"The American Movement" (written 1898, first published 1908)
Ten thousand times has the labor movement stumbled and fallen and bruised itself, and risen again; been seized by the throat and choked and clubbed into insensibility; enjoined by courts, assaulted by thugs, charged by the militia, shot down by regulars, traduced by the press, frowned upon by public opinion, deceived by politicians, threatened by priests, repudiated by renegades, preyed upon by grafters, infested by spies, deserted by cowards, betrayed by traitors, bled by leeches, and sold out by leaders, but notwithstanding all this, and all these, it is today the most vital and potential power this planet has ever known, and its historic mission of emancipating the workers of the world from the thraldom of the ages is as certain of ultimate realization as is the setting of the sun.
"An Ideal Labor Press," The Metal Worker (May 1904)
The most heroic word in all languages is REVOLUTION.
"Revolution" in New York Worker (27 April 1907)
I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.
"When I Shall Fight," Appeal to Reason (11 September 1915)
From the crown of my head to the soles of my feet I am Bolshevik, and proud of it.
"The Day of the People," The Class Struggle Vol. III No. 1 (February 1919)
Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most — that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least.
Walls and Bars (1927)
When great changes occur in history, when great principles are involved, as a rule the majority are wrong.
Speech in Cleveland, Ohio.(Sept. 11, 1918) Eugene V. Debs Speaks, ed. Jean Y. Tussey (1970)
[edit] Outlook for Socialism in the United States (1900)
Published in the International Socialist Review (September 1900)
Socialism is very properly recognized by the capitalist class as the one cloud upon the horizon which portends an end to the system in which they have waxed fat, insolent and despotic through the exploitation of their countless wage-working slaves.
Of course, Socialism is violently denounced by the capitalist press and by all the brood of subsidized contributors to magazine literature, but this only confirms the view that the advance of Socialism is very properly recognized by the capitalist class as the one cloud upon the horizon which portends an end to the system in which they have waxed fat, insolent and despotic through the exploitation of their countless wage-working slaves.
What the workingmen of the country are profoundly interested in is the private ownership of the means of production and distribution, the enslaving and degrading wage-system in which they toil for a pittance at the pleasure of their masters and are bludgeoned, jailed or shot when they protest — this is the central, controlling, vital issue of the hour, and neither of the old party platforms has a word or even a hint about it.
As a rule, large capitalists are Republicans and small capitalists are Democrats, but workingmen must remember that they are all capitalists, and that the many small ones, like the fewer large ones, are all politically supporting their class interests, and this is always and everywhere the capitalist class.
[edit] What's the matter with Chicago? (1902)
What's the matter with Chicago? in The Chicago Socialist(October 25, 1902)
I do not oppose the insane asylum — but I abhor and condemn the cutthroat system that robs man of his reason, drives him to insanity and makes the lunatic asylum an indispensable adjunct to every civilized community.
Chicago is the product of modern capitalism, and, like all other great commercial centers, is unfit for human habitation. The Illinois Central Railroad Company selected the site upon which the city is built and this consisted of a vast miasmatic swamp far better suited to mosquito culture than for human beings. From the day the site was chosen by (and of course in the interest of all) said railway company, everything that entered into the building of the town and the development of the city was determined purely from profit considerations and without the remotest concern for the health and comfort of the human beings who were to live there, especially those who had to do all the labor and produce all the wealth.
As a rule hogs are only raised where they have good health and grow fat. Any old place will do to raise human beings.
I do not oppose the insane asylum — but I abhor and condemn the cutthroat system that robs man of his reason, drives him to insanity and makes the lunatic asylum an indispensable adjunct to every civilized community.
[edit] The Negro and His Nemesis (1904)
"The Negro and His Nemesis" in the International Socialist Review (January 1904)
For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him.
The Elgin writer says that we shall "jeopardize the best interests of the Socialist Party" if we insist upon the political equality of the Negro. I say that the Socialist Party would be false to its historic mission, violate the fundamental principles of Socialism, deny its philosophy and repudiate its own teachings if, on account of race considerations, it sought to exclude any human being from political equality and economic freedom. Then, indeed, would it not only "jeopardize" its best interests, but forfeit its very life, for it would soon be scorned and deserted as a thing unclean, leaving but a stench in the nostrils of honest men.
Foolish and vain indeed is the workingman who makes the color of his skin the stepping-stone to his imaginary superiority. The trouble is with his head, and if he can get that right he will find that what ails him is not superiority but inferiority, and that he, as well as the Negro he despises, is the victim of wage-slavery, which robs him of what he produces and keeps both him and the Negro tied down to the dead level of ignorance and degradation.
The man who seeks to arouse prejudice among workingmen is not their friend. He who advises the white wage-worker to look down upon the black wage-worker is the enemy of both.
The African is here and to stay. How came he to our shores? Ask your grandfathers, Mr. Anonymous, and if they will tell the truth you will or should blush for the crimes.
For myself, I want no advantage over my fellow man, and if he is weaker than I, all the more is it my duty to help him.
[edit] The Socialist Party and the Working Class (1904)
The Socialist Party and the Working Class", opening speech delivered as Presidential candidate of the Socialist Party, Indianapolis, Indiana (1 September 1904)
Intellectual darkness is essential to industrial slavery.
The people are as capable of achieving their industrial freedom as they were to secure their political liberty, and both are necessary to a free nation.
The working class must be emancipated by the working class.
There has never been a free people, a civilized nation, a real republic on this earth. Human society has always consisted of masters and slaves, and the slaves have always been and are today, the foundation stones of the social fabric.
Wage-labor is but a name; wage-slavery is the fact.
The most barbarous fact in all christendom is the labor market. The mere term sufficiently expresses the animalism of commercial civilization.
They who buy and they who sell in the labor market are alike dehumanized by the inhuman traffic in the brains and blood and bones of human beings.
The very moment a workingman begins to do his own thinking he understands the paramount issue, parts company with the capitalist politician and falls in line with his own class on the political battlefield.
The political solidarity of the working class means the death of despotism, the birth of freedom, the sunrise of civilization.
The capitalist class is represented by the Republican, Democratic, Populist and Prohibition parties, all of which stand for private ownership of the means of production, and the triumph of any one of which will mean continued wage-slavery to the working class.
The Republican and Democratic parties, or, to be more exact, the Republican-Democratic party, represent the capitalist class in the class struggle. They are the political wings of the capitalist system and such differences as arise between them relate to spoils and not to principles.
Deny it as may the cunning capitalists who are clear-sighted enough to perceive it, or ignore it as may the torpid workers who are too blind and unthinking to see it, the struggle in which we are engaged today is a class struggle, and as the toiling millions come to see and understand it and rally to the political standard of their class, they will drive all capitalist parties of whatever name into the same party, and the class struggle will then be so clearly revealed that the hosts of labor will find their true place in the conflict and strike the united and decisive blow that will destroy slavery and achieve their full and final emancipation.
Ignorance alone stands in the way of socialist success. The capitalist parties understand this and use their resources to prevent the workers from seeing the light.
Intellectual darkness is essential to industrial slavery.
Death to Wage Slavery!
The united vote of those who toil and have not will vanquish those who have and toil not, and solve forever the problems of democracy.
Civilization has done little for labor except to modify the forms of its exploitation.
The Republican and Democratic parties are alike capitalist parties — differing only in being committed to different sets of capitalist interests — they have the same principles under varying colors, are equally corrupt and are one in their subservience to capital and their hostility to labor.
First of all, Theodore Roosevelt and Charles W. Fairbanks, candidates for President and Vice-President, respectively, deny the class struggle and this almost infallibly fixes their status as friends of capital and enemies of labor. They insist that they can serve both; but the fact is obvious that only one can be served and that one at the expense of the other. Mr. Roosevelt’s whole political career proves it.
The people are as capable of achieving their industrial freedom as they were to secure their political liberty, and both are necessary to a free nation.
The hand tools of early times are used no more. Mammoth machines have taken their place. A few thousand capitalists own them and many millions of workingmen use them.
Capitalism is dying and its extremities are already decomposing. The blotches upon the surface show that the blood no longer circulates. The time is near when the cadaver will have to be removed and the atmosphere purified.
The working class must be emancipated by the working class.
Woman must be given her true place in society by the working class.
Child labor must be abolished by the working class.
Society must be reconstructed by the working class.
The working class must be employed by the working class.
The fruits of labor must be enjoyed by the working class.
War, bloody war, must be ended by the working class.
With faith and hope and courage we hold our heads erect and with dauntless spirit marshal the working class for the march from Capitalism to Socialism, from Slavery to Freedom, from Barbarism to Civilization.
[edit] The Issue (1908)
"The Issue", Speech delivered at Girard, Kansas (23 May 1908)
When we are in partnership and have stopped clutching each other's throats, when we have stopped enslaving each other, we will stand together, hands clasped, and be friends. We will be comrades, we will be brothers, and we will begin the march to the grandest civilization the human race has ever known.
Now my friends, I am opposed to the system of society in which we live today, not because I lack the natural equipment to do for myself, but because I am not satisfied to make myself comfortable knowing that there are thousands of my fellow men who suffer for the barest necessities of life. We were taught under the old ethic that man's business on this earth was to look out for himself. That was the ethic of the jungle; the ethic of the wild beast. Take care of yourself, no matter what may become of your fellow man. Thousands of years ago the question was asked: "Am I my brother's keeper?" That question has never yet been answered in a way that is satisfactory to civilized society.
Yes, I am my brother's keeper. I am under a moral obligation to him that is inspired, not by any maudlin sentimentality, but by the higher duty I owe to myself. What would you think of me if I were capable of seating myself at a table and gorging myself with food and saw about me the children of my fellow beings starving to death?
People are never quite so strange to each other as when they are forced into artificial, crowded and stifled relationship.
I would rather be friendless out on the American desert than to be friendless in New York or Chicago.
The rights of one are as sacred as the rights of a million.
If it had not been for the discontent of a few fellows who had not been satisfied with their conditions, you would still be living in caves. Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization.
Progress is born of agitation. It is agitation or stagnation.
Competition was natural enough at one time, but do you think you are competing today? Many of you think you are. Against whom? Against Rockefeller? About as I would if I had a wheelbarrow and competed with the Santa Fe from here to Kansas City.
When we are in partnership and have stopped clutching each other's throats, when we have stopped enslaving each other, we will stand together, hands clasped, and be friends. We will be comrades, we will be brothers, and we will begin the march to the grandest civilization the human race has ever known.
[edit] Canton Anti-war Speech (1918)
"Canton Anti-war Speech" in The Call (16 June 1918)
I may not be able to say all I think; but I am not going to say anything that I do not think.
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from the ranks.
The Man of Galilee, the Carpenter, the workingman who became the revolutionary agitator of his day soon found himself to be an undesirable citizen in the eyes of the ruling knaves and they had him crucified.
Do not worry over the charge of treason to your masters, but be concerned about the treason that involves yourselves. Be true to yourself and you cannot be a traitor to any good cause on earth.
If ever I become entirely respectable I shall be quite sure that I have outlived myself.
You need at this time especially to know that you are fit for something better than slavery and cannon fodder.
In due time the hour will strike and this great cause triumphant — the greatest in history — will proclaim the emancipation of the working class and the brotherhood of all mankind.
I may not be able to say all I think; but I am not going to say anything that I do not think. I would rather a thousand times be a free soul in jail than to be a sycophant and coward in the streets.
So far as I am concerned, it does not matter what others may say, or think, or do, as long as I am sure that I am right with myself and the cause. There are so many who seek refuge in the popular side of a great question. As a Socialist, I have long since learned how to stand alone.
I never had much faith in leaders. I am willing to be charged with almost anything, rather than to be charged with being a leader. I am suspicious of leaders, and especially of the intellectual variety. Give me the rank and file every day in the week. If you go to the city of Washington, and you examine the pages of the Congressional Directory, you will find that almost all of those corporation lawyers and cowardly politicians, members of Congress, and misrepresentatives of the masses — you will find that almost all of them claim, in glowing terms, that they have risen from the ranks to places of eminence and distinction. I am very glad I cannot make that claim for myself. I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks, and not from the ranks.
There is nothing that helps the Socialist Party so much as receiving an occasional deathblow. The oftener it is killed the more active, the more energetic, the more powerful it becomes.
Socialists were not born yesterday. They know how to read capitalist newspapers; and to believe exactly the opposite of what they read.
Why should a Socialist be discouraged on the eve of the greatest triumph in all the history of the Socialist movement? It is true that these are anxious, trying days for us all — testing days for the women and men who are upholding the banner of labor in the struggle of the working class of all the world against the exploiters of all the world; a time in which the weak and cowardly will falter and fail and desert. They lack the fiber to endure the revolutionary test; they fall away; they disappear as if they had never been. On the other hand, they who are animated by the unconquerable spirit of the social revolution; they who have the moral courage to stand erect and assert their convictions; stand by them; fight for them; go to jail or to hell for them, if need be — they are writing their names, in this crucial hour — they are writing their names in faceless letters in the history of mankind.
These are the gentry who are today wrapped up in the American flag, who shout their claim from the housetops that they are the only patriots, and who have their magnifying glasses in hand, scanning the country for evidence of disloyalty, eager to apply the brand of treason to the men who dare to even whisper their opposition to Junker rule in the United Sates. No wonder Sam Johnson declared that "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." He must have had this Wall Street gentry in mind, or at least their prototypes, for in every age it has been the tyrant, the oppressor and the exploiter who has wrapped himself in the cloak of patriotism, or religion, or both to deceive and overawe the people.
The Man of Galilee, the Carpenter, the workingman who became the revolutionary agitator of his day soon found himself to be an undesirable citizen in the eyes of the ruling knaves and they had him crucified.
How stupid and shortsighted the ruling class really is! Cupidity is stone blind. It has no vision. The greedy, profit-seeking exploiter cannot see beyond the end of his nose. He can see a chance for an "opening"; he is cunning enough to know what graft is and where it is, and how it can be secured, but vision he has none — not the slightest. He knows nothing of the great throbbing world that spreads out in all directions. He has no capacity for literature; no appreciation of art; no soul for beauty. That is the penalty the parasites pay for the violation of the laws of life.
Wars throughout history have been waged for conquest and plunder. In the Middle Ages when the feudal lords who inhabited the castles whose towers may still be seen along the Rhine concluded to enlarge their domains, to increase their power, their prestige and their wealth they declared war upon one another. But they themselves did not go to war any more than the modern feudal lords, the barons of Wall Street go to war. The feudal barons of the Middle Ages, the economic predecessors of the capitalists of our day, declared all wars. And their miserable serfs fought all the battles. The poor, ignorant serfs had been taught to revere their masters; to believe that when their masters declared war upon one another, it was their patriotic duty to fall upon one another and to cut one another's throats for the profit and glory of the lords and barons who held them in contempt. And that is war in a nutshell. The master class has always declared the wars; the subject class has always fought the battles. The master class has had all to gain and nothing to lose, while the subject class has had nothing to gain and all to lose — especially their lives.
They have always taught and trained you to believe it to be your patriotic duty to go to war and to have yourselves slaughtered at their command. But in all the history of the world you, the people, have never had a voice in declaring war, and strange as it certainly appears, no war by any nation in any age has ever been declared by the people.
And here let me emphasize the fact — and it cannot be repeated too often — that the working class who fight all the battles, the working class who make the supreme sacrifices, the working class who freely shed their blood and furnish the corpses, have never yet had a voice in either declaring war or making peace. It is the ruling class that invariably does both. They alone declare war and they alone make peace.
Yours not to reason why;
Yours but to do and die.
That is their motto and we object on the part of the awakening workers of this nation.
If war is right let it be declared by the people. You who have your lives to lose, you certainly above all others have the right to decide the momentous issue of war or peace.
If ever I become entirely respectable I shall be quite sure that I have outlived myself.
You need at this time especially to know that you are fit for something better than slavery and cannon fodder. You need to know that you were not created to work and produce and impoverish yourself to enrich an idle exploiter. You need to know that you have a mind to improve, a soul to develop, and a manhood to sustain.
They are continually talking about your patriotic duty. It is not their but your patriotic duty that they are concerned about. There is a decided difference. Their patriotic duty never takes them to the firing line or chucks them into the trenches.
And now among other things they are urging you to "cultivate" war gardens, while at the same time a government war report just issued shows that practically 52 percent of the arable, tillable soil is held out of use by the landlords, speculators and profiteers. They themselves do not cultivate the soil. Nor do they allow others to cultivate it. They keep it idle to enrich themselves, to pocket the millions of dollars of unearned increment.
And now for all of us to do our duty! The clarion call is ringing in our ears and we cannot falter without being convicted of treason to ourselves and to our great cause.
Do not worry over the charge of treason to your masters, but be concerned about the treason that involves yourselves. Be true to yourself and you cannot be a traitor to any good cause on earth.
Yes, in good time we are going to sweep into power in this nation and throughout the world. We are going to destroy all enslaving and degrading capitalist institutions and re-create them as free and humanizing institutions. The world is daily changing before our eyes. The sun of capitalism is setting; the sun of socialism is rising. It is our duty to build the new nation and the free republic.
In due time the hour will strike and this great cause triumphant — the greatest in history — will proclaim the emancipation of the working class and the brotherhood of all mankind.
[edit] Federal Court statement (1918)
Statement to the Federal Court, Cleveland, Ohio, upon being convicted of violating the Sedition Act (18 September 1918)
While there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
Let the people everywhere take heart of hope, for the cross is bending, the midnight is passing, and joy cometh with the morning.
Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind then that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.
In this country — the most favored beneath the bending skies — we have vast areas of the richest and most fertile soil, material resources in inexhaustible abundance, the most marvelous productive machinery on earth, and millions of eager workers ready to apply their labor to that machinery to produce in abundance for every man, woman, and child — and if there are still vast numbers of our people who are the victims of poverty and whose lives are an unceasing struggle all the way from youth to old age, until at last death comes to their rescue and lulls these hapless victims to dreamless sleep, it is not the fault of the Almighty: it cannot be charged to nature, but it is due entirely to the outgrown social system in which we live that ought to be abolished not only in the interest of the toiling masses but in the higher interest of all humanity…
I am opposing a social order in which it is possible for one man who does absolutely nothing that is useful to amass a fortune of hundreds of millions of dollars, while millions of men and women who work all the days of their lives secure barely enough for a wretched existence.
When the mariner, sailing over tropic seas, looks for relief from his weary watch, he turns his eyes toward the southern cross, burning luridly above the tempest-vexed ocean. As the midnight approaches, the southern cross begins to bend, the whirling worlds change their places, and with starry finger-points the Almighty marks the passage of time upon the dial of the universe, and though no bell may beat the glad tidings, the lookout knows that the midnight is passing and that relief and rest are close at hand. Let the people everywhere take heart of hope, for the cross is bending, the midnight is passing, and joy cometh with the morning.
humblebum
(5,881 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 17, 2012, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)
encourage freedom of thought. Pure group think.
"I do not oppose the insane asylum — but I abhor and condemn the cutthroat system that robs man of his reason, drives him to insanity and makes the lunatic asylum an indispensable adjunct to every civilized community." Describes the re-education camps perfectly.
However, I do think we are in agreement about the effects of break neck capitalism, and the sympathies of Debs.
The system imposed by the Chinese is every bit as oppressive and inhumane as any of worst form of capitalism. I think that communism would have been accepted much more widely if attempts to eradicate religion had not been part of the agenda.
Response to humblebum (Reply #63)
humblebum This message was self-deleted by its author.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)
David__77
(23,372 posts)U.S. broadcaster Radio Free Asia said hundreds of angry Tibetans forced police to hand over the remains of the 42-year-old monk, named Sopa, and then carried them through the streets in Dari county in Qinghai province.
...
Radio Free Asia said police first refused to give up the body but relented after "the protesters smashed windows and doors of the local police station," according to another source.
...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ifPRDgLUUXgveB-ObzsAM4mg23Og?docId=d3157f4c5d3d4335931173b3fc118a39
Taverner
(55,476 posts)Vince843
(13 posts)<<Radio Free Asia said police first refused to give up the body but relented after "the protesters smashed windows and doors of the local police station," according to another source.>>
If protesters were going around smashing up the police station, you can bet that a police officer with an itchy trigger finger is going to shoot. The quote from the original article makes it look as if the Tibetans were just sitting around doing nothing, and the police fired into a crowd for no reason.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)David__77
(23,372 posts)I was just adding information. There's plenty to protest.
I do not think China is performing any sort of ethnic cleansing. Wikipedia isn't always a great source, but if you examine its article on the subject (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing), "ethnic cleansing" is designed to remove a certain ethnic population. There is no campaign to remove Tibetans from the that province, or from Tibet region either. In fact, China pours a lot of resources into the area, doesn't tax Tibetans, partly to try to placate Tibetan people.
Some people claim that Han people moving into Tibet region is in itself a form "ethnic cleansing," but I disagree strongly. That's like the white chauvinists claiming that immigration into the US by non-Anglos is "ethnic cleansing" against whites. How does China "ethnically cleanse" against Tibetan people?
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)...crowded out of your land, prevented from seeking asylum, and denied cultural rights. That is ethnic cleansing if not genocide.
David__77
(23,372 posts)Tibet is pretty big. Llasa housing is much more plentiful and spacious per capita than in any provincial capital. China has pretty liberal laws regarding emigration - certainly not Soviet-style in that regard. What "cultural rights?" To pray? That's legal. Education is secular - that is true. There are all kinds of festivals, rites, handicrafts, Tibetan language literary publications - on and on. If anything, there is a flowering of Tibetan culture today the exceeds anything in history.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)They don't have the luxury to do so.
Please educate yourself on the plights of the Tibetan people: http://savetibet.org/policy-center/us-government-and-legislative-advocacy/state-department-annual-reports-tibet
You are typing nonsense that is unbecoming of anyone the least bit interested in human rights.
David__77
(23,372 posts)I've read all that stuff before - a lot of it. Tibet is a beautiful land and I hope that it continues its social, economic, and cultural development.
Human rights is better measured by the Human Development Index or Gini coefficient than it is by any NGO or by the US State Department.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)Are economic? Wow. By that logic, the American Revolution should have never happened. 
David__77
(23,372 posts)I stressed social, cultural, and economic... And there were plenty of economic motivations for the American revolution. The British wanted to maintain a colony for extraction of raw goods - one big slave plantation. The revolutionaries fought for a republic where actual economic progress would be possible. Alexander Hamilton exemplifies this - soldier, revolutionary, economist.
The right to life, right to shelter, right to food, right to work, right to leisure, right to culture - all these are "human rights."
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)The right to free speech, and free practice of religion are just as important. Deprived of any of these rights, humanity is denied.
This is not freedom and liberty, this is not human rights anyway you compute it, it is not acceptable:
That's just a couple months ago in Aba.
David__77
(23,372 posts)Even if there were Western-style separation of powers and competitive politics in China, I doubt that Chinese people would vote for a government that would implement very different policies vis-a-vis Tibet. So what solution do you propose?
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)...granting Tibet self-governance, if not independence. Also, the residents of the PRC don't exactly "vote" for their leaders...The West should have never caved on recognition of the PRC as having sovereignty over Tibet. It is a historic injustice and one day will change.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)...in order to dilute Tibetan culture out of existence. It's a very old form of ethnic cleansing and was used most infamously by the Assyrians.
