Sheriff: Ban On Open Carrying At Polls Not Enforceable

[James48]

Source: WHMI News

“She just threw gas on an ember”.

Sheriff Murphy: Ban On Open Carrying At Polls Not Enforceable

By Jessica Mathews, [e-mail]


—Howell, Michigan. Livingston County Sheriff Mike Murphy maintains a recent ban issued on the open carrying of firearms at voting locations is unenforceable.

Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson issued direction Friday to local election clerks statewide clarifying that the open carry of firearms on Election Day in polling places, clerk’s offices, and absent voter counting boards is prohibited on Election Day, November 3rd. Some elections officials and voter rights experts nationwide are concerned about violence at the polls. Benson said prohibiting the open-carry of firearms in areas where citizens cast their ballots is necessary to ensure every voter is protected. A press release states Attorney General Dana Nessel and Michigan State Police Director Col. Joe Gasper have joined with Secretary Benson in preparations to ensure Michigan voters are safe and secure when voting by informing local law enforcement agencies and ensuring that the ban on openly carried firearms is enforced statewide.

However, Sheriff Murphy maintains there is no enforcement to take because nothing is actually against the law – calling it a ludicrous statement because there’s no teeth behind it. Murphy said there is no law prohibiting open carry so therefore because there’s the absence of law, it makes it legal. He noted that businesses still have the ability to prohibit people from open carrying because it’s private property but on Election Day, polling locations are considered open to the public. Murphy added that in Livingston County, you can only vote in polls where you live so he thinks the potential for outside agitators is slim to none. He said if there are going to be some people causing agitation; they’ll probably do it in their own backyard where they have a legitimate right to be so he doesn’t particularly see it as being a problem on Election Day.

Murphy said he’s a little disappointed that Benson came out with this two weeks before the election, adding there was no consultation with any local law enforcement that’s he aware of – just the Attorney General and Michigan State Police. Murphy stressed that nobody wants anything other than a safe and secure voting day but told WHMI that by Benson issuing a ban on open carrying when she has no legal authority to do so, he thinks it will just result in pushback. Murphy believes the order will just cause more issues than it was trying to solve - saying he’ll give Benson the benefit of the doubt that she was trying to quash problems or make it better but really, “she just threw gas on an ember”. Murphy says it’s essentially being portrayed as an order that people can’t open carry within 100 feet of a polling location but he maintains there’s no legal basis for that. He said just because the Secretary of State is in charge of elections, doesn’t give her the authority to arbitrarily say something two weeks before the election and make it law



Read more: https://www.whmi.com/news/article/sheriff-mike-murphy-benson-election-open-carry

---

Now the Governor, AG and Sec of State and State Police appears to be at odds with a local Sheriff.

Different Michigan Sheriff from earlier in the week.

We live in crazy times.

[DonaldsRump]

1. So I am sure this idiot will next say that it is permissible

to carry guns on planes etc.

[Boogiemack]

67. It's enforceable if you start locking up the bastards. nt

[LizBeth]

2. Then we get to call saying we are afraid to vote cause of the people with guns and want a cop to

escort us to vote to make sure we are safe. Surely if they have a right to have a gun, I have a right to feel safe while voting.

[roamer65]

3. I have the right to call 911 if I see guns inside that 100 ft line.

Probable terrorist attack.

[yaesu]

16. Everyone should have the closest FBI office number handy, that would be the first call I would make

[FBaggins]

52. You do recognize who shows up when you call 911, right?

In that county... it's the sheriff.

[roamer65]

58. Washtenaw Co, MI

They are pretty good here. Nice ultra liberal area of MI.

I expect my township to go 80-85 pct Biden/Harris.

[msongs]

4. translation - threatening armed gangs of good old boys are ok with me nt

[Buckeye_Democrat]

5. A police station is public too, so can people...

... open-carry in there now?

Or do the police make all the rules up there now?

[FrankTC]

9. No Open Carry In Courthouses Either

Every time I enter a Michigan courthouse I have to go through a metal detector or get wanded. Maybe there's legislation that bans weapons in courthouses, but for whatever reason, there are no guns allowed in there. Likewise, given the preening of the militia morons and the boogaloo jackasses, it makes sense that there also be no guns in polling places. The Secretary of State's ban makes perfect sense. And no, it's not about taking away anybody's guns. It's about commonsense regulation for the public good.

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

26. The courts set their own rules on that

Concealed guns are banned through an Administrative Order by the Michigan Supreme Court. Courts were not listed in the gun free zones for concealed carry(Section 28.425o). They were listed in the original set of gun free zones(Section 750.234d), but that law exempts people with CPL's.

[EarlG]

6. Dodge City, 1878

While people were allowed to have guns at home for self-protection, frontier towns usually barred anyone but law enforcement from carrying guns in public.

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that "any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law." Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona--the site of the infamous "Shootout at the OK Corral"--also barred the carrying of guns openly.

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/21907/were-firearms-prohibited-in-dodge-city-kansas-in-the-1870s

They had better gun control in the 1870's Wild West than we do now.

[reACTIONary]

55. And in fact...

... the shoot out at the OK corral was precipitated by a violation of the gun restrictions and an attempt to enforce them.

[groundloop]

7. Why in hell is there any need to carry a gun to vote?????

Other than to put on a show and intimidate people I can think of nothing.

[hadEnuf]

56. Aparrently some may need to carry a gun to vote in order to defend themselves from armed terrorists

trying to interfere with that right to vote.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

8. Another one of the sheriffs elected into the position.

I assumed that was the case, but I looked it up to verify it.

The elected sheriffs can be among the most stupid and arrogant.

[SheltieLover]

27. You just answered my question

This sheriff needs to go!

Who the fuck does he think he is?

No wonder the decision makers did not consult with him! Fking idiot!

[AllaN01Bear]

44. so can non elected sherrifs , ours wont enforce the wear mask rule here .

[Cryptoad]

10. Call up the National Guard!

[James48]

11. We need United Nations elections oversight

Or - We need Jimmy Carter up here overseeing our Michigan vote.

[relayerbob]

12. He should be removed immediately

Last edited Sat Oct 17, 2020, 12:57 PM - Edit history (1)

[Buckeye_Democrat]

17. He was elected, so it's not so easy.

I really wish everyone would stop electing sheriffs in this country. They're among the worst.

John Oliver covered elected sheriffs a few months ago:

[SheltieLover]

28. Ty!

[Deuxcents]

13. This is nutz

We cannot wear political buttons, t shirts with political phrases or carry signs w/in 200 feet of the polling stations. They never specified we can’t be armed..a loophole?!

[DetroitLegalBeagle]

23. There simply isn't any law for or against it in Michigan.

There are zero laws regarding open carry specifically. Nothing that says you cannot open carry, nor any law that specifically states that you can. We have laws concerning concealed carry, and we have laws concerning the carrying and possession of firearms in certain areas. But there is nothing pertaining specifically to open carry. Because of this, open carry, by default, is legal here. Concealed carry is legal at polling places unless its at a school or church. Due to a loophole in how the 2 gun free zone laws are worded, open carry is legal in some gun free zones, like schools and churches, if the open carrier has a CPL. Pretty certain this ban will be challenged and I honestly don't have high hopes that a court here would uphold it. Michigan courts have sided with open carriers in the past.

[COLGATE4]

14. Methinks Murphy has been partaking of the Sovereign

Citizen nonsense that "the Sheriff is the only legitimate law enforcement official".

[Lars39]

15. Betting he's a "Constitutional Sheriff"

[Initech]

18. Well money is already free speech. I guess guns are next on the list?

[truthisfreedom]

19. lots of days left.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

20. So if I see someone open carrying, and I am in fear of my life,

it should be okay for me to take out my concealed gun and shoot that person?

Well, I don't actually own a gun, but you get the idea.

[onetexan]

60. Spot on!! K&R

[hack89]

61. If you can convince a jury your fear was reasonable

If the person you shot was simply carrying and not overtly threatening you then a murder charge is more likely.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

62. Especially since I don't have guns,

I see someone openly carrying as a grave threat. They are advertising their willingness to engage in gun violence. That is greatly fear inducing.

And I think of all the white people who have shot and killed unarmed black men. Who exactly should I fear the most?

[hack89]

66. You still have to show an overt threat

You have to show that your life was in imminent danger. This is established case law. Has been for a very long time. Generalized fear, no matter how acute, is not grounds for killing someone.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

68. Huh. And to think certain people

have gotten away with murdering black men who are walking or running away from them because they were in fear of their life. From a fleeing person.

So if someone is standing in front of me carrying any kind of a gun, I will absolutely be in fear of my life.

[hack89]

69. Fine. Take your chances

What if the guy you kill is white?

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

70. Did you see the part where I don't own a gun?

I never will have one. I'm simply trying to make a point about open carry.

Plus, your question about what if the guy I were to kill is white? Which is more or less what the problem is. White men can open carry -- including a 17 year old with whatever automatic rifle he had recently -- and shoot to kill black men, frighten everyone else around them, and face zero consequences.

Personally, I'd confiscate all guns, but despite how much gun-huggers claim that's going to happen any day now, alas, it won't.

[hack89]

71. I saw

but I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that your attitude is a dangerous one that is not supported by case law.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

72. But people open carrying, and waving their guns at people

who are unarmed and sometimes shooting them is apparently supported by case law. I will say I know very little about case law.

That just shows how totally fucked up this country is in terms of guns.

Other countries have exactly one mass shooting and get rid of guns. Here we shrug our shoulders, offer thoughts and prayers, have people come forward who claim it never happened, and then the next mass shooting occurs.

However, I will say that one genuine upside to the pandemic is that we haven't had a school shooting since it started.

[BComplex]

21. In the town where I live in NC, if the town decides to issue a rule for any particular event, the

sheriff agrees to abide by it, even though the Sheriff is county-wide, not just city-wide, like the police.

They make rules for things like the Christmas parade, the town festival, etc, and the Sheriff AND the police are there to make sure everything is as it should be.

[W T F]

22. If you can ban guns from court buildings, you can ban guns from election polls.

[FBaggins]

53. It's the "you" that you're missing

Yes... of course it's possible to ban guns in a court building.

But "you" do it by having the legislature pass such a law and have the governor sign it.

"You" can't do it by decree just because you're the Secretary of State. A governor might be able to do it by declaring an emergence

It isn't that it isn't a good idea... or that it isn't shocking that existing law didn't already have such restrictions.

[orangecrush]

24. Bullshit.

[burrowowl]

25. Kick jo

[SheltieLover]

29. Can they not pass law quickly to cover this issue, since Barney Fife is making noise?

Or is state legislature full of repuke scum?

This is same state where terrorists armed with assault rifles were in state capitol building while law makers were in session, right?

Is there not some way to force this dirtbag to do his fking job?

[James48]

43. Michigan- both Houses are solid republican

Due to Republican gerrymandering, about 60% of Both Michigan State House And Senate seats are Republican, even though the majority of the state votes blue.

[SheltieLover]

45. Ty, Jamrs

I suspected thos, but wasn't sure.

[Doreen]

30. So, if there is a Democrat or two standing around with guns will they be

allowed to stay too? What a bunch of bullshit.

[C Moon]

31. It's going to be an ugly, ugly, ugly November. I fear lives will be lost.

This time, we can't give in to the fucking cheaters.
And when we win, they are going to do time: no more "let's move on and heal the nation."
The nation won't heal until these bastards pay for their crimes—every god damned one of them!

We need to take our country back from those who tried to Make America White Again.

[onetexan]

33. exactly - MAWA, the sound whiners make

mawaaaaaaaaa & and MAHA (make America hate again): mahaaaaaaaaa


Dems should do the MASA moniker - make America SMART again
masaaaaaaaaaaaaaa sounds like the calming "wusaaaaaa" & "ommmmmm"

[mdbl]

32. Fuck you Sheriff

I hope they use the state police.

[sinkingfeeling]

34. Bulls**t. The sheriff is obligated to enforce the election rules set by the SOS.

Who would come to remove a group of protesters who occupied the voting site in mass to stop people from voting ?

[melm00se]

35. Honest question

OK, Bob shows up at a polling place packing.

The polling place is somewhere other than

- A depository financial institution (e.g., bank or
credit union)
- A church or other place of religious worship
- A court
- A theater
- A sports arena
- A day care center
- A hospital
- An establishment licensed under the Liquor Control Code
(all of these are covered by MCL 750.234d p)
or (and by extension as these are covered by MCL 28.425o)
- School or school property, except a parent or
legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a
child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle
- Public or private day care center
- Sports arena or stadium
- A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of
liquor by the glass is the primary source of
income (does not apply to owner or employee of
the business).
- Any property or facility owned or operated by a
church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other
place of worship, unless authorized by the
presiding official
- An entertainment facility that has a seating
capacity of 2,500 or more
- A hospital
- A dormitory or classroom of a community college,
college, or university
- A casino

What crime, exactly, and under what law (also specifically) would the open carry person be charged?
Or can the Secretary of State, Attorney General and/or State Police create a law out of thin air?

It is the last sentence above that is most concerning. Is it ok for a government official to unilaterally just up and create a new law? Think about that for second. Remove firearms from the situation and substitute something else (IE you can't wear a t-shirt and jeans in a polling place). Lawful or overreach?

The last time I checked the Michigan State Constitution, Article IV § 1, the legislative power of the State of Michigan is vested in a senate and a house of representatives.

As there is no law against it, if this progresses to a court, how do you think a judge will react? and say?

And the defendant chooses to exercise his/her right to have the charges read. What is that reading going to say? What law, enshrined in the penal code, is going to be the basis for the charges?

[3825-87867]

38. The point isn't about a crime

The First Amendment says we have freedom of speech (except in a crowded theater screaming "Fire&quot .

However, governments here have restricted legal protests (1st Amendment Rights?) time and again because they've been "worried" about problems. As I stated in another post, we were denied access to Bush's RNC in NYC in 2004 when Rudy set up "Free speech zones" blocks away. That was ok'ed by the courts. And isn't it funny that the protestors didn't "Arm themselves" and ignore the ruling? And none of them threatened harm or any kind of retribution or militia action for denying their right to protest.

Nobody is denying your 2nd Amendment right to carry if it's the law. But they, local and state governments, can decide WHERE you can carry if that might (in their opinion) cause problems and/or safety concerns and that precedent has been set and ruled on by courts.

Setting a Gun free zone away from polling places is no worse or evidently more illegal than setting a curfew in Portland for protestors so they can't express their right to peaceful gatherings.

It's America 2020 - we actually and truly have no rights any longer.

[Kaleva]

48. there is no constitutional ban on yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

SCOTUS reversed their stand way back in 1958.

[melm00se]

51. Gun free zones

(like at schools) is a federal law.

Again, I ask under what law would the violator be charged? It's not sufficient to say "Because the Secretary of State and/or the State Attorney General said so".

We are talking about potential criminal sanctions with no apparent law on the books.

[mr_lebowski]

59. Police could order such persons to leave the vicinity if they won't put their guns away ...

You don't HAVE TO arrest people for doing something that's against regulations.

If I show up at a football game ticket person and I'm packing, they would say go put your gun in the car or you're not coming inside.

They don't arrest me, even though it's illegal to bring a gun into the place.

See how that works?

Of course, I'm white.

If I wasn't, the law would probably work differently.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

63. Playing devil's advocate...

...the dept of state has responsibility for the elections and voting process. I suspect the Sec/State and AG want the county sheriff to act as bouncers at the polls a la, enter with an OC firearm, get told to leave. While you can't be charged with a crime for carrying in the polling place, in many jurisdictions failure follow the direction of law enforcement is arrestable. Perhaps the DA won't be able to charge you but not leaving and securing the weapon may get you detained for a bit.

I might infer that the sheriff may want to enlarge his staff before complying with tasks he may consider closer to being the high school hall monitor than enforcing laws. Some of those entering public service have an eye toward empire building.

[Kaleva]

49. MI law allows a CPL holder to open carry in many of those places.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

36. My polling place is inside a school, so firearms are prohibited, whether ...

... open-carry or concealed.

Not that I'm going there - I voted absentee.

[Kaleva]

46. A CPL holder can open carry in a school

But they can't conceal carry. One of the many quirks of Michigan gun laws.

[UrbanProspector]

37. Go ahead and shoot...

Howell is a reliably red town anyway (ie KKK), smart voters (ie Dems & Indy) have probably already voted absentee there anyway. So fire away for freedumb I guess, because its all in the "constitution". Glad I live on the bluer side of the state.

[bluestarone]

39. He could have KEPT his MOUTH SHUT! BUT

HE chose to open it just to cause trouble!!! That's the ONLY reason!! I'm sure the locals won't be able to REMOVE this asshole!

[dware]

41. The locals are the ones that voted him in so I doubt they want to vote him out. nt

[Kaleva]

47. The locals voted him in.

[Marthe48]

40. Not like having a political button on your shirt

In Ohio, we aren't allowed to wear anything political within 50 ft. I imagine the (mainly) elderly poll workers would find it easier to tell someone to remove a button than to tell them to 'stand down, proud guy.' And while you could poke somebody pretty hard with the business end of a political pin, you can do worse with a loaded gun in a confrontation. If the sheriff won't do his job, we can't expect volunteers manning the polling places to step in. We should be able to expect a sheriff to do his job, and call for backup if he can't. I'm sick of gun supporters using public safety as a target for their right to have their weapons at all times.

That being said, I watched so many westerns where the town had a no gun law and anyone coming in had to check their guns with the sheriff, or they couldn't stay in town. Or if they got caught with a gun, they were relieved of their weapon and jailed. Wouldn't that be a pleasant fulfillment of armed phantasy?

[turbinetree]

42. He is so full of Bullshit...........

[SunSeeker]

50. The Orange County CA Sheriff ssid he won't enforce the mask mandate.

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/were-not-the-mask-police-oc-sheriff-says-deputies-will-not-enforce-mask-mandate/2384269/

Both of these Sheriffs are right wing idiots, who have forgotten the meaning of "to protect and to serve."

[old guy]

54. Elected sheriffs are products of the good old boy system around here.

They are not elected because they will enforce all the laws equally, they are elected because they are fun to have a drink with and can be counted on to let things slide for their friends and neighbors and relatives. The argument used is not enough manpower and not enough money. IMO, having had several meetings with them over issues of enforcement, it is also a matter of just maintaining the status quo. Don't rock the boat!

[MichMan]

64. I place a vote for a Sheriff candidate in every major election in my county

I have never met any of them over a drink nor have they ever let anything slide for my friends, neighbors and relatives.

Sometimes the ones I vote for end up winning and sometimes they don't

[LiberalFighter]

57. The sheriff is an idiot.

Polling places are not open to the public as he interprets. They are only open to registered voters with intent to vote. Once they have voted they can't go back in.

Doubt police can be inside the polling locations without cause either.

Candidates can't go into the polls unless they are voting there.

[MichMan]

65. Nessel: State police will enforce voting laws on Election Day if sheriffs won't

"Michigan will send state troopers into voting areas where they believe local sheriffs will not enforce laws prohibiting voter intimidation, Attorney General Dana Nessel said Sunday on Showtime's "The Circus."

The comments came after Nessel was asked about whether she could rely on elected local sheriffs to enforce voter intimidation and security laws given Barry County Sheriff Dar Leaf's relationship with militia groups and other sheriffs' lack of support for previous executive orders.

"If you have a county sheriff that seems to be sympathetic to any of these organizations and we think they're not going to enforce the laws, then we'll get somebody else who will, the Michigan State Police," Nessel said.

"Every place in the state of Michigan, there will be law enforcement that believe that voters need to be protected."

[link:https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/18/dana-nessel-michigan-state-police-enforce-voting-laws-election-day/3706699001/|

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

73. Kind of a dumb rule anyway. No firearms on display within 100 feet, or 5 car lengths.

6 car lengths away from the polls, no problem, hold your guns in the air, wave them around, probably discourage a lot of voters.