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Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 07:13 PM Mar 2021

Bump Stocks Are Not Machine Guns, Sixth Circuit Rules

Source: Courthouse New Service

CINCINNATI (CN) — A divided appeals court panel ruled Thursday that several gun rights groups should have been granted an injunction against the enforcement of an ATF rule that defines bump stocks as machine guns and makes it a felony offense to possess one.

The rule, adopted in the aftermath of the 2017 shooting of concertgoers in Las Vegas, criminalized possession of the rapid-fire gun attachments used to increase the rate of fire of semiautomatic weapons.

A federal judge denied Gun Owners of America’s motion for a preliminary injunction in March 2019, and determined the the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ rule was entitled to Chevron deference.

Established after a U.S. Supreme Court ruling in the 1984 case Chevron USA Inc. v. Natural Resources Defense Council Inc., the doctrine holds that a court may not substitute its own opinion in the place of a reasonable interpretation made by an administrative agency.

Read more: https://www.courthousenews.com/bump-stocks-are-not-machine-guns-sixth-circuit-rules/

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Bump Stocks Are Not Machine Guns, Sixth Circuit Rules (Original Post) Dial H For Hero Mar 2021 OP
'a court may not substitute its own opinion in the place of a reasonable interpretation elleng Mar 2021 #1
Any accessory that reduces both the accuracy and safety of a firearm should be illegal. truthisfreedom Mar 2021 #2
Gun owners share your point of view zipplewrath Mar 2021 #3
with some practice, one can get pretty darn accurate using a bump stock Kaleva Mar 2021 #4
As with anything zipplewrath Mar 2021 #6
It can be useful if the goal is to commit mass murder. Kaleva Mar 2021 #8
Trump says bump stock makes it a machine gun keithbvadu2 Mar 2021 #5
They are not machine guns. Turbineguy Mar 2021 #7
Congress writes vague laws, Executive Branch passes regulation, Jose Garcia Mar 2021 #9
In fairness, bump stocks are a fairly new invention (they've only been around since 2008), Dial H For Hero Mar 2021 #11
Fed Courts are all over the map this week. maxsolomon Mar 2021 #10
They were used in the Las Vegas shooting in 2017 DetroitLegalBeagle Mar 2021 #18
Good points maxsolomon Mar 2021 #20
THIS is the kind of BS add-on that Congress should be able to get rid of. oldsoftie Mar 2021 #12
If they have the votes, sure. They likely don't in the Senate. Dial H For Hero Mar 2021 #13
On this i'd like to see the Democrats reasoning for NOT doing it. Its not a weapon. oldsoftie Mar 2021 #14
They would need 60 votes in the Senate. Dial H For Hero Mar 2021 #15
I'm still not clear on all that and I need to be. oldsoftie Mar 2021 #16
To break a filibuster you need 60 votes. DetroitLegalBeagle Mar 2021 #17
Thank you. oldsoftie Mar 2021 #19

elleng

(130,126 posts)
1. 'a court may not substitute its own opinion in the place of a reasonable interpretation
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 07:15 PM
Mar 2021

made by an administrative agency.'

truthisfreedom

(23,113 posts)
2. Any accessory that reduces both the accuracy and safety of a firearm should be illegal.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 07:29 PM
Mar 2021

Bump stocks do both. They're trash, just toys for idiots.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
3. Gun owners share your point of view
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 08:03 PM
Mar 2021

After Vegas, a "responsible" gun owner I knew said the things were stupid and dangerous. They vastly reduce accuracy and they will keep firing if you don't move your finger alot more than a normal automatic weapon. Quite honestly, the ATF probably should have developed the rule based upon that, instead of a finding that they constituted an automatic weapon. They probably still can.

Kaleva

(36,145 posts)
4. with some practice, one can get pretty darn accurate using a bump stock
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 08:17 PM
Mar 2021

There are YouTube videos showing shooters getting rounds on target while using a bump stock. I won't post them here lest I get accused of posting gun porn but they are easy to find.


The Las Vegas shooter problem used bump stocks to get as much lead as he could into a large crowd in as short a time as possible. I doubt he was picking his targets. He most likely was just spraying into the massed crowd.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
6. As with anything
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 08:38 PM
Mar 2021

With skill and practice, almost anything can be achieved. But as a reasonable tool, it is foolish.

keithbvadu2

(36,360 posts)
5. Trump says bump stock makes it a machine gun
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 08:29 PM
Mar 2021

Trump says bump stock makes it a machine gun

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/department-justice-announces-bump-stock-type-devices-final-rule

Department of Justice Announces Bump-Stock-Type Devices Final Rule

Today, Acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker announced that the Department of Justice has amended the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF), clarifying that bump stocks fall within the definition of “machinegun” under federal law, as such devices allow a shooter of a semiautomatic firearm to initiate a continuous firing cycle with a single pull of the trigger.

Acting Attorney General Whitaker made the following statement:

“President Donald Trump is a law and order president, who has signed into law millions of dollars in funding for law enforcement officers in our schools, and under his strong leadership, the Department of Justice has prosecuted more gun criminals than ever before as we target violent criminals. We are faithfully following President Trump’s leadership by making clear that bump stocks, which turn semiautomatics into machine guns, are illegal, and we will continue to take illegal guns off of our streets.”

(more)

https://www.google.com/search?q=trump+says+bump+stock+machine+gun&sxsrf=ALeKk03Gj_JKU0niLpPOYQAdnwxmiw30bg%3A1616718272955&source=hp&ei=wCldYL3MN_2z5NoPjo-zgAM&iflsig=AINFCbYAAAAAYF030ACsSP2F_xZLz7DBpZYNW1iKkt9w&oq=trump+says+bump+stock+machine+gun&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAw6BAgjECc6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOggIABCxAxCDAToFCAAQsQM6CAguEMcBEKMCOgUILhCxAzoCCAA6DgguELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOggIABCxAxDJAzoFCAAQhgNQnhtYyvUBYIPkA2gBcAB4AIABjQKIAbAokgEGNC4yNy4zmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwi9rO_y2MzvAhX9GVkFHY7HDDAQ4dUDCAw

Turbineguy

(37,206 posts)
7. They are not machine guns.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 08:50 PM
Mar 2021

They just fire fast so you can kill lotsa people!

Yeah! Line 'em up and mow 'em down.

Jose Garcia

(2,551 posts)
9. Congress writes vague laws, Executive Branch passes regulation,
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:04 PM
Mar 2021

courts then make their opinion.

Wouldn't it had been better if Congress had passed a less vague law?

 

Dial H For Hero

(2,971 posts)
11. In fairness, bump stocks are a fairly new invention (they've only been around since 2008),
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:16 PM
Mar 2021

And they only became known to the public at large in 2017, after the Las Vegas mass shooting. As the judge in this opinion noted, the law is quite clear. As per federal law, a gun that can only fire once per trigger pull is not a machine gun. A bump stock simply allows one to pull the trigger very quickly. Even if the rate of fire is the same as some machine guns, it's legally a semiautomatic.

As you say, the proper way to make them illegal would be for Congress to explicitly outlaw them, not have the ATF just declare them so as Trump ineptly directed them to do.'

(edited to add)

This is also why Gatling Guns aren't legally considered to be machine guns, as they must be continually cranked to fire. One can buy a Gatling Gun with no more paperwork than it takes to buy a single shot rifle. $5K for a miniature one that fires 9mm handgun rounds. Full sized replicas cost tens of thousands.

maxsolomon

(32,975 posts)
10. Fed Courts are all over the map this week.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:09 PM
Mar 2021

Bump Stocks aren't Machine Guns, but they allow MSSAs to approach that rate of fire, right? Tra la la, NBD.

AFAIK, no loner has used them to mow down bystanders. Yet. There's always tomorrow I guess.

Unorganized Militiamen do not need this rate of fire to secure a Free State.

I don't think I've got anything left but cynicism on the 2nd Am.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,904 posts)
18. They were used in the Las Vegas shooting in 2017
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:44 PM
Mar 2021

And legally, rate of fire doesn't matter. A machine gun has a set legal definition. Only guns that fire more than one round per single pull of the trigger is a machine gun. Rifles fitted with bumpstocks do not meet this definition. The shooter is still pulling the trigger for every round that is fired, but they do so at a faster rate then would normally be achieved due to how the bumpstock works. The proper way to get rid of these stupid things is to pass an actual law banning them.

oldsoftie

(12,410 posts)
14. On this i'd like to see the Democrats reasoning for NOT doing it. Its not a weapon.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:27 PM
Mar 2021

Its a modification. And a useless one (other than clearing fire) at that.

oldsoftie

(12,410 posts)
16. I'm still not clear on all that and I need to be.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:36 PM
Mar 2021

How come some things get passed with a 51 vote margin but others need 60? Does the GOP just NOT filibuster the 51 vote items even though they're ALL voting against it? Or what?

DetroitLegalBeagle

(1,904 posts)
17. To break a filibuster you need 60 votes.
Thu Mar 25, 2021, 10:39 PM
Mar 2021

The Covid relief bill was passed through a budgetary process called reconciliation. Bills passed this way cannot be filibustered. But the number of bills that can go through this process and the scope of what can be in those bills are limited.

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