Engineer Warned of 'Major Structural Damage' at Florida Condo Complex

[Jetheels]

Source: The New York Times

Three years before the deadly collapse of the Champlain Towers South condominium complex near Miami, a consultant found alarming evidence of “major structural damage” to the concrete slab below the pool deck and “abundant” cracking and crumbling of the columns, beams and walls of the parking garage under the 13-story building.

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/26/us/miami-building-collapse-investigation.html

[Buckeye_Democrat]

1. Please don't tell me...

... that the condos were atop the slab seen broken near the pool in this picture.



Edit: Several support columns can still be seen in this pic, busting right through the slab further away from the pool area.

[Vinca]

8. If this is a representation of how bad it was, the building should have been condemned and

evacuated immediately. Why am I not surprised though. GOP-led states seem to value their "freedoms" more than human life.

[3Hotdogs]

20. Yeah, if it wasn't for liberals and their need for regulations, we would all be free.

Remember Trump's first directive.... every new regulation must be followed by eliminating two other regulations.

[speak easy]

9. I assume you were not being serious.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

13. I was absolutely serious, but I don't really expect...

.. such a crazy design underneath the condos.

I don't even see evidence of support beams spanning between the columns, at least among those columns seen jutting through the collapsed slab.

Hence, I don't REALLY believe it was designed that way underneath those heavy buildings too. But I also don't really know, either way.

[speak easy]

15. The 'broken slab' is a patio.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

17. Ah!

I'd read articles about the underground garages below the condos, and the pics of the aftermath certainly made me hope the garages weren't similarly "supported" by columns.

Thanks for clearing that up, by the way!

[Buckeye_Democrat]

40. Here's another pic, within the parking garage...

... after the collapse.



I don't see any kind of sturdy support beam that collapsed near the column, but only exposed rebar from the fallen concrete slab.

Surely they weren't only counting on columns and reinforced concrete to support the weight! There should be thick beams connected to the columns too, to support the slab and everything above it, I would think!

I have zero experience as a structural engineer, but such a design seems crazy to me if that's what the builders did.

[NH Ethylene]

42. Maybe it broke from the weight of the building collapse?

The narrow part of the pool is aimed toward the part of the building that did not collapse, and there is not that much debris there, but the pressure on the rest of that shelf must have been considerable. What a mess.

There are helpful before and after pictures on this page if you can access WaPo:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/24/video-timeline-miami-building-collapse/

[Buckeye_Democrat]

43. Thank you!

The second 'before picture' gives me a much better understanding of the pool deck design. It clearly wasn't part of the building support at all.

[oneshooter]

56. NO. The slab you see was the TOP of the condos

See the A/C units that fell off of the roof. And the tar roofing. THAT IS THE ROOF OF THE BUILDING!!!

[Buckeye_Democrat]

58. That's not what I was referencing.

I was referring to the section closer to the pool, with large orange tiles (or whatever) covering it. Gaze rightward away from the pool, and you see where it cracked and collapsed.

Until I later magnified the image, and saw some 'before pictures' too, my perspective was off. It's clearly just a pool deck of some kind.

What bothered me the most was no signs of horizontal support beams between the columns which busted through that deck. Yet that shouldn't be a problem since it wouldn't be expected to support much weight.

Then I saw some pics of the partial collapse within the parking garage at the ground floor, and I didn't see signs of horizontal support beams there either. I'm not a mechanical or structural engineer, and I've never even worked in building construction, but it struck me as odd compared to the taller buildings that I've observed in my area which have skeletons of thick steel.

[NH Ethylene]

57. A story about one of the occupants struck me as illuminating.

This must have happened before the first building section fell, along with a garage collapse.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/06/26/collins-ave-miami-condo-collapse/

From her fourth-floor balcony, Cassondra Stratton felt a tremor and saw the swimming pool cave in. She immediately called her husband, Michael, in Denver, 2,000 miles away.

Michael listened as Cassondra, who had been riding out the pandemic at their apartment on the beach in Surfside, described a sudden shaking.

“And then the phone went dead,” he said.

“She screamed bloody murder and that was it,” said Stratton’s sister, Ashley Dean.

Also, the first call went out to firefighters at 1:20, citing a 'garage collapse'. By the time they arrived, the building sections had collapsed.

[Buckeye_Democrat]

59. Thanks!

My guess was that the collapse started there, and that information seems to support it.

[wnylib]

61. How awful for her family.

Last edited Sun Jun 27, 2021, 11:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Why did she stay in place and call her husband instead of rushing out of the building? She must have thought the damage was limited to the swimming pool. A curiosity, perhaps, without realizing the significance of it.

[NH Ethylene]

69. That must be why.

I imagine it would take a few minutes for all the implications to sink in, and it looks like she didn't have that long.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

2. Sounds like criminal negligence causing multiple deaths. . . . nt

[3Hotdogs]

21. Against who? The inspecting engineer for not focusing on the severity of the problem but calling it

minor?

The town or its building inspectors for not raising an alarm?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. No, the engineer seems like a good guy, but your statement does 180 on headline.

Your statement that the engineer "called it minor" is diametrically opposed to the headline "Engineer Warned of 'Major Structural Damage'". The excerpt does not support your statement either: it says "abundant cracking and crumbling".

Somebody is wrong; either you or the headline writer.

Article is behind paywall.

[3Hotdogs]

26. Its is the article that reflects the engineer calling the damage, "minor."

I am not going to read it again for direct quote but the damages were reported as being definitely in need of correction but not of immediate correction.

[paleotn]

49. Sorry, but major structural damage of the nature called out is not minor

and unless the inspecting engineer(s) was a lunatic, I doubt seriously if the conclusions were minor in nature. Certainly not from the pictures I've seen this morning.

In a reinforced concrete structure, the problem is what you can't see. Visible spalling and corroded reinforcing steel are just the tip of the iceberg and give some clues as to what's going on inside, but concrete and steel deterioration isn't linear. It's exponential. Add the fact that unlike steel frame construction, ubiquitous concrete slab, beam, column has an Achilles heel. Though cheaper and quicker to build, they're not as durable and losing one or two columns or beams can easily cause such a catastrophic shift in loads that they "pancake". Other construction types can suffer a similar fate, but it's much more acute in modern reinforced concrete, unless it's well designed and well maintained. The last part being the kicker. A bad design can sometimes be mitigated through increased maintenance, though that's not the recommended path. Developers often ignore the costs of long term maintenance and focus only of the cheapness and quickness of initial construction. Some structural engineers have been "crying in the wilderness" about this for years. Maybe some will be listened to now.

[NH Ethylene]

44. The article's quote says SOME of the damage is minor.

Though some of this damage is minor, most of the concrete deterioration needs to be repaired in a timely fashion,” Morabito wrote in his 2018 report.

(He) pointed out the “abundant” cracking and crumbling that was apparent in the walls, columns and beams of the building’s underground parking garage.

[sop]

3. Residents probably didn't want to pay for the needed "multi-million dollar" concrete repairs till it

was too late, and they were forced to do so. Every unit owner would have been assessed tens of thousands of dollars to rebuild the crumbling structure. Having personally attended numerous condo association meetings, where management advised angry residents of necessary repairs and expenses, paid for by special assessments tacked onto already high monthly maintenance fees, I know how people can react.

[Ritabert]

5. The assessment for repairs was $100,000+

.. per unit depending on square footage.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

48. And there it is.

That’s why I would never live in a large building development.

One would think more people would mean less cost per person but it doesn’t work that way. Large buildings can be insanely expensive to work on. Instead of ladders you need scaffolds, cranes and helicopters.

A friend of mine got hit with a $40k (times 100 units) special assessment 6 months after moving in — A window fell out of a high rise building (the CNA Building) in Chicago killing a mother walking with her child so the city mandated inspections of all building facades. That was in the early 2000s and she was just recently able to unload the place.


I had a client who bought into a large rehab of a warehouse condo conversion. They had all kinds of structural issues but no one wanted to pay for engineer reports to go after the developer before the warranties expired. Half the building was owned by investors who bought with little to no money down so they were cash strapped and just wanted to roll the dice.

[NJCher]

6. Question

Would that be recorded in the meeting minutes?

I’ve never owned a condo, so don’t know.

[sop]

19. Of course. Business conducted at every meeting is recorded, usually by Association officers.

Everything has to be voted on, so records are kept on every item of business that comes before the condo association. Engineers and contractors are routinely hired to inspect the building when problems are found. These reports must be made available to everyone at the meetings, along with recommendations and cost of the proposed repairs.

The meetings can get pretty rowdy; I've witnessed fights break out. You often have several factions in every building, each group arguing for their particular point of view. Some residents never want to spend a dime for anything, others want to immediately repair any defect and spare no expense. Since money is usually involved, things can get heated. Condominiums can be like a microcosm of American society and politics.

Most residents are only willing to spend money on improvements in common areas that will increase the value of the property and their individual units when they sell, things like new carpeting, lush landscaping or fancy pool furniture. Others understand that while expensive and needed concrete and foundation repairs won't be visible to prospective buyers, and may not increase sale prices of individual units, the money is well spent if it keeps the place from crashing down in the middle of the night.

[NJCher]

33. Thanks

Your Honor, the record will show....

[wnylib]

63. Wouldn't the records of meetings

have been lost in the collapse?

[sop]

65. Condo association records would be stored in a number of different locations.

(From my experience as an association officer) All unit owners periodically elect their condo association board officers: President, Vice President, Treasurer, Secretary, etc. One or all of these officers would be required to keep records of all the association business.

Unit owners are all encouraged to attend board meetings. When important business is to be discussed, decided and voted on, most unit owners will show up. Following each meeting, a summary of all business discussed and decisions made would be sent to every unit owner.

Associations also hire professional off-site condo management companies. These companies handle all the day-to-day operations, like janitorial services, groundskeeping, insurance, routine maintenance, minor and major repairs, hiring security guards and other staff.

The management company also collects monthly association fees and assessments from unit owners, oversees bank accounts and issues payments to all providers. Often a representative of the management company will attend important board meetings. I imagine the management company has records of everything involving the 2018 structural engineering study and every decision made since then.

[wnylib]

67. Interesting. So much extra expense and

shared responsibility in condo ownership doesn't seem worthwhile to me. I'd prefer the direct control and responsibility of individual home ownership, or just an apartment with responsibility for one's own rented space and easier freedom to move if not happy there.

[3Hotdogs]

22. Repairs were contracted to begin.

Problem was reported in 2018. Repairs deemed minor but needed.

What month in 2018?

So board solicits bids from another engineer to assess the actual damage. That would take months.

Then the Board takes bids for the construction company that would be fixing stuff.

Then the board hires one of the contractors to do the repairs after they finish what they are already working on.


A two or three year delay is probably not unreasonable.

[sop]

30. The repairs were finally mandated by the county's 40-year re-certification program.

Many condo associations contest the necessity of making structural repairs mandated by the county. These legal processes can take years. It will be interesting to see if and how long the association contested the required structural repairs.

[NH Ethylene]

45. The article's quote says SOME of the damage was minor. n/t

[GulfCoast66]

60. Winner, winner chicken dinner.

People in the NE live in their homes for 30 years, pay them off and suddenly they have 600K or more to buy an ocean front condo. Paradise in their mind. Torture in mine but we are all different.

But have no idea that with ocean front comes salt. And seawater. Both of which creates the need for constant, and very expensive maintenance. No matter how well built an ocean front property is always in the process of rotting. And yeah, iron and concrete with salt contact rots.

It’s not that they necessarily don’t want to pay the maintenance cost, but they can’t. Live on a generous fixed pension but 15-20K every few years was not in their calculations. So they put it off.

I don’t doubt there were some design issues as well, but that is what maintenance can fix.

Ironically the homes best suited to ocean conditions are the one built of wood and the real old ones with pegged wood construction. Many still stand and are as strong to day as the day they were built. Yeah, they need paint every 4 years. But the bones are strong.

I spend a lot of the time on the coast. I maintain a boat that sees nothing but saltwater. It is insidious and never stops corroding everything it touches.

[gab13by13]

4. Have no idea if this is a possibility,

but I read it on the internet. Sea water rise is inundating further and further inland, this is a fact, however, linking it to this structural failure may be a stretch.

[Ritabert]

7. This whole area is prone to seawater encroachment

...particularly during a full moon high tide which this was. The water backs up from storm drains flooding streets and underground structures and degrading the concrete over time. Water even percolates up through the limestone base.

[BlueWavePsych]

10. Sinkholes everywhere too

[Ritabert]

18. Interesting map

...

[Smackdown2019]

25. What you expect, Florida was and still is a SWAMP!

What you expect, Florida was and still is a SWAMP!

Drain the swamp and you will still have a swamp. No rock bed.....

[paleotn]

50. A carbonate platform....

covered with sand and swamps. The Florida bank. Not unlike the Bahama Banks.

[BlueWavePsych]

11. Could increasing assault of king tides and sea level rise contributed to Miami condo collapse?

Saltwater and brine-soaked air settle into the pores of coastal construction, growing a rusty crust around the steel skeletons that reinforce oceanfront structures. It weakens the bonds between metal and concrete creating cracks and crumbles in vulnerable areas.

“Sea level rise does cause potential corrosion and if that was happening, it’s possible it could not handle the weight of the building,” said Zhong-Ren Peng, professor and Director of University of Florida’s International Center for Adaptation Planning and Design. “I think this could be a wakeup call for coastal developments.”

“Even if when the building was built in 1981 the foundation was dry most of the time, with sea level rise pushing groundwater up to the surface, the foundation could be wet enough long enough to soften the concrete,” Slap said. “Many of these buildings with underground parking have sump pumps running and that means the foundation is in the water.”

A Florida International University study on the building found that it had been sinking since the 1990s at a rate of about 2 millimeters a year. FIU Department of Earth and Environment Professor Shimon Wdowinski was lead author on a report published in Science Direct on subsidence — land sinking — in Miami Beach and Norfolk, VA.

https://www.palmbeachpost.com/story/weather/2021/06/25/could-climate-change-have-contributed-surfside-condo-collapse/7779816002/

[NCjack]

12. I lived in a 30-year old, 12-story condo that a problem with the concrete balconies

deteriorating. The rebars and the concrete were separating and pieces weighing as much as 20 lbs were falling.

An independent engineer and the engineer for the repair company agreed that the most likely cause was the sand used in the concrete mix. It was likely it had a saltwater history, and the chloride and sulfate attacked the rebars. That formed iron rust, which caused the concrete to separate from the rebars.

[twodogsbarking]

14. And they inspected it why?

So we know what killed the people of course.

[BlueWavePsych]

16. WaPo: Before condo collapse, rising seas have long pressured Miami coastal properties

The 12-story condo tower that crashed down early Thursday near Miami Beach was built on reclaimed wetlands and is perched on a barrier island facing an ocean that has risen about a foot in the past century due to climate change.

Underneath its foundation, as with Miami Beach, is sand and organic fill —over a plateau of porous limestone — brought in from the bay after the mangroves were deforested. The fill sinks naturally and the subsidence worsens as the water table rises.

Investigators are just beginning to try to unravel what caused the Champlain Towers South to collapse into a heap of rubble and leave 99 people missing. Experts on sea level rise and climate change caution that it is too soon to speculate if rising seas helped destabilize the oceanfront condo. The 40-year-old building was relatively new compared with others on its stretch of beach in the town of Surfside.

But it’s already clear that South Florida has been on the front lines of sea level rise and that the impacts of climate change on the infrastructure of the region — from septic systems to aquifers to shoreline erosion — will be a management problem for years to come.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/06/25/rising-sea-levels-condo-collapse/

[TeamProg]

47. Yes to all of the story text pasted above. But do we all recognize that the cartoon is

a San Francisco scene and not Florida? TransAmerica building, quaint victorians..

KQED is the Bay Area public broadcasting network, too.

[BlueWavePsych]

51. Check this one out ...

[TeamProg]

52. "Endless Bummer"

'Dad, what's a beach?'

[3Hotdogs]

23. So what will be done about the tens of thousands of other ocean front buildings

up and down the east coast. And is this just an east coast problem?


Would you buy a condo on any shorefront? Give me sunny, downtown Maplewood, N.j. instead.


3H

[NJCher]

66. I'd even

Take the pitiful downtown of w.orange over surfside. If I need some shoreline I can drive to it in 45 “.

[sheilahi]

27. Vroom, vroom

Okay Gentlemen, Start your lawsuits.

[Dopers_Greed]

28. Building management was probably making too much money

from the booming real estate market to care.

Lock them up!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

31. No, according to the link, they were "this close" to starting repairs on structural issues.

"Any day now", "real soon",

Oh, oops, never mind.

[Maxheader]

29. Happens too much...

Hope the owners have to pony up $$ for tenants relocation and has

to reimburse on paid rent and deposits....

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

32. I thought the owners ARE the tenants.

But, now they'll find out if the management bought good insurance.

I have to assume the tenant/owners are all fairly wealthy. Those condos must have cost a bundle, being on the ocean.

Even the temporary tenants, Air B&B folks, must have forked over a good sum to stay there.

[littlemissmartypants]

34. Some person or entity could have purchased a block of condos

And used them as rental units. There's money to be made especially when you have a short term rentals.

[NH Ethylene]

46. I read somewhere that the building was considered more "middle-class" than the others.

The units still would be very pricey though.

[sop]

68. Remember the legal term "inherent vice and latent defects." It will come up often in this collapse.

Condo association insurance policies normally won't cover damage to the structure caused by "inherent vice or latent defects." Condo insurance generally protects every unit owner against all risks of direct physical loss to the building, things like storm damage, fire, explosions, etc. However, most policies specifically exclude losses caused by "inherent vice or latent defect, settling, cracking, shrinkage, bulging or expansion of pavements, foundations, walls, floors, roofs or ceilings."

[BlueWavePsych]

35. "caused by years of exposure to the corrosive salt air along the South Florida coast"

Extreme buyers market ... if you dare

[Warpy]

36. Odd, I'd read that the parking structure was across Collins Ave.

Subterranean parking on a barrier island wouldn't work well, the water table is far too high, keeping it pumped out would be prohibitively expensive. If the parking was at street level under the building, it could explain a lot about how the collapse happened, especially if the part of the building still standing had no parking, just the lobby and other building amenities on the first floor.

I know my engineer parents were leery of high rise construction on barrier islands and stayed in a 3 story place in South Beach, a funky combination of art deco and Florida kitsch. It's long gone but has a cult following online.

It's still going to take a long time before engineers know what failed and why. It's known that structural work was planned, but not that it was either extensive or an emergency situation.

I do predict that oceanfront condos are going to get cheaper, at least in the short term.

[getagrip_already]

38. not underground.. parking is ground level under the raised building...

It's pretty typical in hurricane prone areas. It allows water to rush through without damaging the structure. The building starts one floor up. There may be a faux lobby, but the walls would be breakaway and the furnishings sacrificial.

[MontanaMama]

37. Well. So much for

all of the”nobody could have seen this coming”.

[gab13by13]

39. I read an article that blamed

improper drainage of the pool. Using that as the reason, and maybe it was, would be much better financial wise than if the cause were from ocean infiltration. I can imagine what would happen to property values along the coast if the cause of this tragedy came from ocean intrusion/ aka/global warming.

[redstatebluegirl]

41. My friend who is a structural engineer

said the last guy to inspect that building is hightailing it out of dodge right now.

[BlueWavePsych]

53. Who knew?

[BlueWavePsych]

54. Surfside condominium collapse may be a result of sea-level rise.

One hypothesis gaining traction not only in the scientific community but with residents of Miami Beach is that subsidence and sea-level rise may have played a part.

Miami has experienced a six-inch rise of sea-level rise since the mid-1990s. The Capital Weather Gang mentions that Miami has seen a 320% increase in nuisance flooding since that time. Miami as you recall has limestone bedrock which is essentially a fossilized sponge. Seawater gurgles upwards due mostly to tropical cyclones and high tides.

Still, Albert Slap, president of Boca Raton-based RiskFootprint, said it can be invisible machinations — the push and pull of tides on limestone bedrock — combined with rising seas that can weaken a building’s integrity.

“Even if when the building was built in 1981 the foundation was dry most of the time, with sea level rise pushing groundwater up to the surface, the foundation could be wet enough long enough to soften the concrete,” Slap said. “Many of these buildings with underground parking have sump pumps running and that means the foundation is in the water.”

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2021/6/25/2037018/-Surfside-condominium-collapse-in-Miami-Beach-may-be-a-result-of-sea-level-rise

[Jetheels]

55. Found on Reddit, the Structural Field Survey Report...

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/default-source/default-document-library/town-clerk-documents/champlain-towers-south-public-records/8777-collins-ave---structural-field-survey-report.pdf?sfvrsn=882a1194_2

[Warpy]

62. People complained that the ground floor parking was always full of puddles, even when the weather

had been dry for weeks. I have a sneaking suspicion that's where they will find the failures.

[myohmy2]

64. I don't know...

...but I'll bet when all is said and done there will be some form of greed-based 'Republicanism' at the root of the collapse...

...we can go to the Moon send probes to Mars and beyond but we can't tell when a building is going to fall down?...this is third world shit...

...and will anyone go to prison or be executed for all the innocent death?...never...but we'll have countless inquiries and commissions to get at the root cause so 'it never happens again' until next time...

...the buck will be so completely passed until it becomes God's fault...

...until next time...