Court strikes Trump EPA rule for full-year 15% ethanol sales
Source: Omaha World Herald-AP
By DAVID PITT
DES MOINES A federal appeals court on Friday threw out a Trump-era Environmental Protection Agency rule change that allowed for the sale of a 15% ethanol gasoline blend in the summer months.
The decision deals a significant blow to the ethanol industry and corn farmers who grow the crop from which the fuel additive is made. They had anticipated increased ethanol demand through year-round sales of the higher blend.
Most gasoline sold in the U.S. today is blended with 10% ethanol. Corn farmers and ethanol refiners have pushed for the government to allow the widespread sale of a 15% ethanol blend.
The Trump administration made the change to fulfill a campaign promise to Midwest farmers. The EPA under President Donald Trump announced the change in May 2019, ending a summer ban on the E15 blend. Provisions of the Clean Air Act have prohibited the sale of certain fuels with a higher volatility from June 1 through Sept. 15 to limit smog. Congress has allowed 10% ethanol, and the EPA in its 2019 ruling revised the interpretation of the exemption to federal law to include the 15% ethanol blend.
Most gasoline sold in the U.S. today is blended with 10% ethanol. Corn farmers and ethanol refiners have pushed for the government to allow the widespread sale of a 15% ethanol blend.
REBECCA S. GRATZ, THE WORLD-HERALD
Read more: https://omaha.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/court-strikes-trump-epa-rule-for-full-year-15-ethanol-sales/article_ad3d82de-db77-11eb-b202-ab8ea55155d3.html
Owl
(3,639 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
Still, to protect any small engine, they either come with fuel shut-offs installed or you install one.
Turn the valve to the off position and let the engine run dry so it stalls out if not using it for a few days or more.
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Rural_Progressive
(1,105 posts)All of our local mechanics go on at great lengths about using non-ethanol gasoline to protect those engines.
Your mileage may vary.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
All folks have to do is look at their vehicle's owner manuals and most all Non-E85 ones will limit ethanol to 10%. That is the MAXIMUM that vehicles can safely handle. E85 vehicles have special fuel systems, pumps, seals, tanks, lines, injectors, etc that are made to handle up to 85% ethanol. The problem is that those upgrades introduce their own set of issues that severely degrade the life expectancy of the vehicle--that's why you don't see many old E85 cars on the road. The special rings and seals, while they can handle the corrosive ethanol, are prone to wide heat-range and other long-term issues.
If it were as simple as just making all cars E85 tolerable, all cars would do it. The auto industry doesn't want a shitload of cars coming in for servicing while under any of their extended warranty plans--generally 100K miles or 5 years. This adds to a lot of cars heading to the scrap yard and more pollution in the making and destruction of vehicles.
The other smoke and mirrors is that the E10 reduces mileage by around 10%, and E15 by 15% so there is no real net gain to use it, other than as a gift to corn farmers and those who have fields that are in crop rotation or not producing their stable product. This way, they can at least grow something. Using ethanol is like potholes. Either you pay to fix them or you pay getting your car repaired. The subsidies to farmers will be made in one form or another.
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Phoenix61
(16,993 posts)uses more energy to produce than it provides. I really wish they would put an end to this.
Ethanol doesnt take more energy to make then it produces- that was dispelled myth from 20 years ago.
Ethanol is a much better fuel for the environment than any petroleum product.
Phoenix61
(16,993 posts)Omaha Steve
(99,499 posts)Got anything from say the last 10 years?
The only non-ethanol fuel available in Nebraska is PREMIUM at an extra 50 cents a gallon.
OS
Phoenix61
(16,993 posts)and is based on 2001-2 crop yields and ethanol production. Papers were written much later but they use the same 2004-5 data. My issue isnt biofuels its using corn to make it. It is killing our soil and in the not distant future that land wont support any crop at all. None of the pro corn ethanol papers take that cost into account. There are massive amounts of waste that could be used for biodiesel that have a much better energy cost. Sadly, the current system has a massive lobby effort to keep it in place.
But on a strictly dollars out of my pocket:
$3.00/gallon @ 18 mpg = 16.6 cents/mile
$3.50/gallon @ 28 mpg = 12.5 cents/mile
It would be cheaper for me to run my car on premium there.
Rural_Progressive
(1,105 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 3, 2021, 01:44 PM - Edit history (1)
it is a complete boondoggle.
Corn is a horribly expensive crop to raise in terms of amount of water, depletion of soil health and fertility, heavy uses of pesticides and herbicides, and petroleum products to bring it to harvest. That doesn't even take into account the effects of GMO plants creating weeds and pests resistant to pesticides and herbicides.
Now if those fields were planted in hemp, you'd have an entirely different situation. A crop that is easy on water, improves soil health and fertility, currently not much need for pesticides and herbicides and a higher quality biofuel.
https://www.nationofchange.org/2019/07/30/the-future-of-industrial-hemp-and-biofuels/
https://www.thehemppantry.com/mainblog/the-sustainability-of-hemp
So no, ethanol derived from corn is NOT a much better fuel for the environment than any petroleum product. I'm sure you're aware that, as other posters have pointed out, this growing corn to make fuel is a Big AG thing. Here's what you may not know, guess what one of the byproducts of making high fructose corn syrup is? Yep, that's right, ethanol.
This is a giant scam being brought to you compliments of Big AG
oldsoftie
(12,492 posts)among a ton of other things
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts)ffr
(22,665 posts)Carburetted vehicles have to be rejetted to take advantage of pure-gasoline fuels, whereas EFI vehicles with computer controlled ignition timing/advance and O2 sensors don't. If you add increasing ratios of pure-gasoline (E0) to a carburetted motor that's only run E10 fuel, its fuel efficiency and the distance it is able to travel will be LESS. Test it for yourself. That's a known fact.
So you should qualify such comments, since there are still people using motors with carburetors. And if they follow your advice or place money on such advice, they will come out on the short end of the stick.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts)ffr
(22,665 posts)I'm rebutting your comment: "Ethanol does produce less energy, meaning you have to buy more gasoline to travel same distance."
What you wrote is not true in all circumstances. If you are going to make such a claim, please qualify it to make it accurate.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
And it is TRUE in ALL circumstances. Prove me wrong.
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Ford_Prefect
(7,872 posts)10% ethanol is a somewhat dubious and arguable step towards genuine alternate fuels. Selling SUV's and personal trucks big enough to house a family of 4 is off-setting any real gains.
We need an integrated plan on a much larger scale like the one Jimmy Carter proposed in 1977. The details and processes have changed over time but the need for an aggressive, national comprehensive program has not.
ffr
(22,665 posts)Where does water come into the equation? There's no water in ethanol. The ethanol molecule is C2H5OH.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Water, CO2 and sunlight make glucose. Glucose is then fermented (in water) to ethanol, which is then distilled out.
Ford_Prefect
(7,872 posts)An acre of corn produces roughly 300 gallons of ethanol. The corn grown for Ethanol use is the same as that used in livestock feed.
Burning corn is metaphoric but still as near to the truth as needs be. You process the corn into ethanol and then you burn that. Cornell University used the same remark when comparing the carbon and economic impacts of ethanol from feed corn. They also noted that considerable crop support money helped make the ethanol available, but did not make it commercially viable down the line.
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2001/08/ethanol-corn-faulted-energy-waster-scientist-says
Submariner
(12,497 posts)Trump? Of course not. F him.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts)TeamProg
(6,046 posts)For one, why are we turning food into a highly toxic emmission fuel? (one reason = lobbyists)
I read many years ago that gases fom burnt ethanol is far more harmful to human lungs and eyes than fossil fuels.
We obviously need more hybrid solar-electric or all electric vehicles.
https://www.aptera.us/
ffr
(22,665 posts)Ethanol is a natural compound that breaks down in the environment naturally. Gasoline is not a natural compound. It has to be refined from crude oil that is typically pumped from thousands of feet below Earth's surface and not something surface life has evolved with.
Using your own measure, if given the choice, I'll take putting ethanol on my skin over E0 gasoline. And sure, if you breath alcohol exclusively, burned or not, it too is harmful to human lungs, but who does that???
p.s. is your link a form of advertising for Aptera? Are you an employee?
TeamProg
(6,046 posts)I made a reference to electric solar vehicles so I thought that I'd include a link to one.
Okay, here are links about ethanol gasoline.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/reduce-air-pollution-do-not-rely-on-ethanol/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41612-018-0059-z
https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-ethanol-ozone-levels-brazil-20140501-story.html
No, this is not an advertisement for the LA Times or Scientific American or nature.com and no I do not work for Aptera.
Burning anything to create energy is simply bad overall.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Many automakers have said 15% fuel will harm their vehicles.
ffr
(22,665 posts)For those who do not know, read what's on the picture. The amount of ethanol added to fuel grades is UP TO E10 or E15. Why is that, you may ask? Because fuel octane grades (87, 89, 91, 93 octane) will have varying amounts of some percentage of ethanol lower than 10% or 15%, respectively.
Ethanol is an octane modifier and fuel oxygenator. It is 110-112 octane by itself. The ethanol molecule has one oxygen atom in it. Gasoline by itself, aka pure gasoline, aka ethanol-free gasoline does not have an oxygen atom in it and is refined at a relatively poor or low octane level, usually 83 to 85 octane. One reason ethanol is added to pure gasoline is to boost its octane, as a cheap form of octane booster that our high-compression IC engines can use.
Typically, at any randomly selected pump, regular 87 octane will have the lowest percentage of ethanol (usually 3 - 5 %, not 10%) and 91 will have the most ethanol (usually at or under 7%). The other reason to add ethanol is to bring oxygen to the Air-to-Fuel ratio party, which by definition results in cleaner exhaust emissions.
Pure gasoline is dirty, when burned, because its molecule has no oxygen atom. It's also expensive to refine in high octane grades natively, often termed by the industry as "sub-octane" gasoline. Which is partially why over the years tetraethyl lead, MTBE, ETBE and ethanol octane boosters have been added. Tetraethyl lead is toxic to plants and animals at any level, a 1/4 cup of it on your skin will kill you. MTBE and ETBE are also toxic, which is why all three have been banned for use in most countries. Ethanol is not toxic and won't contaminate ground water, as its molecule is something that breaks down naturally or can be diluted.
Fuel is typically trucked to the retailer in either of two tanks, 87 octane and 91/93 octane. It is then blended in ratios, at the pump dispenser, proportional to the minimum octane rating selected, if the selection was in between 87 and 91/93. You'll often see 89 and 90 as an option. The retailer does not have a tank for these grades. They are a nozzle blend, a mixture of fuel coming from the retailer's two tanks of 87 and 91/93. This is why if you have E0 (pure-gas/ethanol free) available to you, it is dispensed from a separate hose nozzle, coming from it's own separate tank and is ONLY available in one octane rating.
I have a few older internal combustion engines designed for use with E10 or up to 10% ethanol. And because E10 provides performance advantages and versatility for where I live, I use E10 exclusively, not E0.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
Swapping fuel grades and adding higher ethanol percentages are how a lot of gas stations make extra profit.
If you had an E10 pump for $3 a gallon and an E15 pump for $2.95 a gallon, you might be getting E15 in both.
Buy an ethanol test kit for $12-14 on Amazon, you put in a little water and gas, and shake it. When it separates, you can see what percentage of ethanol is in there. You can see if you are getting ripped off.
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ffr
(22,665 posts)Please elaborate on the evidence to back up your claim.
And your reply makes it sound like you didn't even read what I wrote beyond the title of my post.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
Two second search.
Just search ETHANOL GAS STATION FRAUD and select your own sources, so you can't complain about the ones I select.
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ffr
(22,665 posts)Claim: you don't know how much ethanol is in the fuel.
A: you can test it, but it's going to be BELOW what is claimed. E10 is up to 10%.
Claim: Ethanol has up to 20% less energy. Therefore you will get 20% worse gas mileage from that same vehicle
A: that is 100% false by definition. The energy lost usually equates to about 4% for an EFI vehicle. Scotty Kilmer simply made some over generalizations. But if he did a little more homework would agree, those two comments are misleading.
Let me explain and you'll see how this is true. Depending on who is saying this claim, they'll often use a ratio of 20% - 35% for ethanol being less efficient than gasoline. But no matter what ratio, it doesn't matter. The claim of 20% worse mileage, or whatever, will turn out to be false. And for a carburetted vehicle that's only run E10, it's efficiency will prove to be about 4% better than when filled with 100% ethanol-free.
First, the makeup of pump gas is up to 10% ethanol. That means the fuel is no less than 90% gasoline and up to 10% ethanol. Let's assume that E10 pump fuel is 10% ethanol, which it will rarely be, it's often up to 7%. If 10% is ethanol, then 90% of the fuel will produce 100% of the energy it is capable of up to its 90% capacity. So that's 90% energy right there. To be the devil's advocate, let's say ethanol has 35% less energy than gasoline, that means the 65% has 100% the energy of gasoline. Therefore 65% of the 10% ethanol makeup has 100% the energy of gasoline, which boost our energy number up to 96.5%, which only leaves 3.5% of the fuel makeup that's less efficient. Again that's at a ratio of 10% ethanol. How does 3.5% of the fuel makeup result in 20% worse mileage in an EFI vehicle? The EFI vehicle has a computer and O2 sensor that work in a closed loop to take full advantage of both E0 gasoline and E10 ethanol!!! No, it's closer to 4% for EFI vehicles.
Following along . Carburetors are fixed fuel metering devices, unlike fuel metering systems like fuel injection. Carburetors use jets, brass objects with holes in them. Gasoline and ethanol basically flow at the same rate through jets. Therefore, if you put E0 in a vehicle that's only run E10, you will take away the oxygen that's built into E10. The fuel mixture will be richer and the engine will burn MORE fuel to go a shorter distance, simply because the AFR will not be stoich, where it is most efficient. To its logical extreme, adding 100% E0 to a carburetted motor that's only run 100% E10 fuel will result in about a 4% loss in fuel mileage.
Mysterian
(4,568 posts)The price of the harmful 15% gas would be the same as regular 10% is now, and the 10%, that everbody would continue to use, would be 25 cents more.
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
They do this to save money, even though you car will get torn up and you'll get crappy gas mileage.
A lot were doing this type of shit when E10 was being used. If you mileage varies, there might be a reason.
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ffr
(22,665 posts)TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
It is my opinion that people should buy one to make sure their preferred gas station is providing stated quality.
For some reason, I guess it's my day.
You are wrong about less energy in ethanol which equates to reduced gas milage.
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