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Mon Jul 19, 2021, 10:55 AM

Dow sinks 700 points as Delta variant fears hit Wall Street hard

Source: CNN

New York (CNN Business)Investors are getting spooked by the rising numbers of Covid-19 cases as the Delta variant spreads across the globe.

The Dow fell 725 points shortly after the opening bell Monday, a drop of 2.1%. The S&P 500 and Nasdaq were each 1.7% lower as well.

Investors feared that the Delta coronavirus variant could threaten the US economic recovery. Shares of companies in sectors that were widely thought to benefit most from the reopening of the economy are getting hit the hardest.

Airlines American (AAL), United (UAL) and Delta (DAL) were all down more than 4%. Cruise operators Carnival (CCL), Royal Caribbean (RCL) and Norwegian (NCLH) each fell about 5%.


Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/19/investing/dow-stock-market-today/index.html

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Reply Dow sinks 700 points as Delta variant fears hit Wall Street hard (Original post)
brooklynite Jul 19 OP
brooklynite Jul 19 #1
CountAllVotes Jul 19 #2
lark Jul 19 #3
CountAllVotes Jul 19 #4
lark Jul 19 #6
CountAllVotes Jul 19 #15
Orrex Jul 19 #32
brooklynite Jul 19 #5
IronLionZion Jul 19 #9
ShazzieB Jul 19 #19
CountAllVotes Jul 19 #27
Dopers_Greed Jul 19 #17
PSPS Jul 19 #7
Warpy Jul 19 #8
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 19 #10
Warpy Jul 19 #11
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 19 #23
Warpy Jul 19 #25
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 19 #33
getagrip_already Jul 19 #13
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 19 #24
getagrip_already Jul 19 #29
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 19 #34
getagrip_already Jul 19 #36
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 20 #39
getagrip_already Jul 20 #40
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 20 #42
Auggie Jul 19 #12
JT45242 Jul 19 #14
PoindexterOglethorpe Jul 19 #26
Dopers_Greed Jul 19 #16
brooklynite Jul 19 #22
James48 Jul 19 #18
Johnny2X2X Jul 19 #20
twodogsbarking Jul 19 #21
Javaman Jul 19 #28
SpankMe Jul 19 #30
bucolic_frolic Jul 19 #31
brooklynite Jul 19 #35
OldBaldy1701E Jul 19 #37
Lord Ludd Jul 19 #38
Marthe48 Jul 20 #41

Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 10:59 AM

1. Now down 800

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:06 AM

2. Its day like this that I am very glad

Glad I do not have .02 cents in this gambler's game.

GOOD LUCK.

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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:16 AM

3. Me neither.

Hubby couldn't take it so to prevent him having a heart attack our money got moved to a (decent) fixed interest rate back in 2008. Was it the smartest thing - no way, but my husband is still alive and that is the most important thing. He says we have enough in savings so he can retire next fall and we will still be ok, but I am a little worried.

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Response to lark (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:22 AM

4. People that are older have no business in the stock market

I'm over 65; husband is 85.

Neither of us are well and we cannot work any more.

Hence, we have no way to recover if this whole game goes belly up.

Everything is in fixed income investments, insured investments.

I cannot take the stress either and I resent paying some damned broker anything!

Had I listened to what the brokers have said to me over the years I'd be up sh*t creek w/o a paddle today.

for yourself always!

Take care and enjoy your retirement AND each other!



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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:38 AM

6. I agree, unless they are rich - which most people, including us, certainly are not.

Good thing you made up your own mind and didn't listen to the brokers! Hopefully repugs won't end SS, Medicare and end us! That's why I am so worried about voting rights - they intend to turn us into a ne0-fascist country & might have the SCOTUS to implement it.

We are happy now, have a nice if dull life. Next year when he retires, the wheel will turn again and our lives will change. I pray the pandemic is over and we can get a Travel van and hit the road, travel to new places and to see old friends. If not, we will find something else and continue to be fine - together! We've already added "puzzling" to things we do and plan to also expand on our garden and make it much bigger next year. WE sadly learned that our newly uncovered soil is bad and will have to "fix" it next year before planting our beloved veggies in the ground.

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Response to lark (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 12:56 PM

15. I'm set for another 10 years

If I'm still alive in 10 years, I'll worry about it then.

Its simply not an option for people like us.

Maybe a loss of $5K a day is nothing to a 1% person but that is a huge chunk of everything I have so it is not a viable to even consider.

The brokers told me to dump the solitary investment I still have almost 20 years ago.

They advised me to "Dance away from it". Uh huh you dummy!

So glad I did not listen to these self-serving frauds.



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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 04:35 PM

32. When I worked in financial services...

I was customer service for a mutual fund company, and a startlingly large number of brokers and financial planners told me that the best investment strategy is to stuff your money in a mattress.

This was from people who made their living off of other people's investments, so to hear them explicitly advocate against it was a real shock to me. And it wasn't two or three, either. Over the course of several years it was dozens.

Still anecdotal, I know, but hard to ignore nonetheless.

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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:22 AM

5. I'm not a gambler...

I'm doing thoughtful investing over time. So far its paying off.

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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:52 AM

9. Many normal people have retirement accounts

I don't do any gambling but I do have long term investments to fund my future retirement.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #9)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 01:52 PM

19. True.

If you have a 401K, you have money in the stock market. I found that out the hard way when half of mine vanished in the blink of an eye back in 2008.

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Response to IronLionZion (Reply #9)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:50 PM

27. I have a retirement fund

Its doing quite well and it is not invested in the stock market.

Nope!

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Response to CountAllVotes (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 01:02 PM

17. Not gambling.

I have positions in several companies that I'm very bullish on.

Plus my largest position is just indexed into the S&P500.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:45 AM

7. Many people see this "return to normal" as a charade despite the MSM's happy talk

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:51 AM

8. It has recovered somewhat but it looks like a wild ride

is coming over the next few days.

This is what the disinformation campaign is all about, spooking investors, discouraging businesses from hiring adequate help, and generally sowing the sort of chaos Dumdum didn't even pretend to deal with.

It is the most cynical campaign I've ever seen and I lived through Nixon and Reagan.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:52 AM

10. The stock market is not gambling.

Nor is it a Ponzi scheme as people here love to claim. If you invest in good stocks or mutual funds, and stay invested, over time you do incredibly well. Over time, on average, it gains around 10 percent each year. And on average, stocks rise two out of every three years.

Of course, if you watch it go up and up, then finally decide to buy, and there's a drop and you sell, you will lose money. Trying to time the market is a total fool's game.

And yes, older people absolutely still belong in the market, because bonds are paying almost nothing these days, and we old people still need that growth. Perhaps you want to have a smaller percentage of your money in stocks, but you should still have some. There's lots of advice out there about what kind of distribution between stocks, bonds, and other things you should consider.

And to keep today's Dow in perspective, since the beginning of the year it's up nearly 4,000 points. 7,000 points from a year ago.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 12:18 PM

11. One caveat: you do much better if you invest for income, not a killing on share price

Doing the latter is what has turned it into a hedge fund casino and the odds, as always, are with the house.

Income producing stocks don't tend to show much movement unless conditions are exceptional, like spring, 2020 and the 2008 bust and even then, they tend to recover quickly. You're not going to get rich quick investing for income, but that income is what will allow you to stay afloat when you are unable to work due to economic stupidity, accident, illness, or whatever.

This is what I learned at my parents' knees and it served both them and me well. They didn't see a dip in their income in 1987, and I didn't see one in either 2008 or 2020. So far, the strategy has been sound, even with dividends depressed by executive pay and corporate stock buybacks eating up both credit and profit.

YMMV, of course, and people in their 20s and 30s have wiggle room (time to start over in case of disaster) and can consider the riskier investments, betting stock prices will continue to soar. Even my financially leery parents did some of that in their 30s.

Do take this advice with a large measure of salt, of course. I was raised by people who were teenagers and young adults during the Great Depression. I inherited their allergy to debt along with their investment strategy.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #11)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:20 PM

23. That is very true.

I have an excellent financial advisor who has done very well for me. If I were investing entirely on my own I'd be heavily in dividend stocks/mutual funds. His mantra is that he's not buying a fund (all of my investments are in funds), he's hiring a fund manager. He pays a lot of attention to how they do, and will get me out of one fund and into another at times when the manager changes. That's the kind of information I'd be hard pressed to find.

He also got me into a couple of annuities -- another inexplicably dirty word here -- nearly a decade ago. I am now taking income from them, and the return has been very good. Plus, whatever is left over when I die goes to my heirs.

Diversification is important.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:36 PM

25. Annuities became a dirty word when we went to fiat currency and found

another dirty word: inflation. Early payouts look great but as time goes on, inflation tends to eat away at the purchasing power. It's a shame, they were a mainstay retirement strategy in the days of the gold and silver standards.

And yes, diversification is important.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #25)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 04:38 PM

33. There are lots of different annuities.

And inflation has been extremely low for decades now.

The current return on investment on both of my annuities is remarkably good. Not mind-boggling or record-breaking, but good. They along with SS and my pension provide a secure base for me.

It's been some 50 years since we went off the gold standard. Thank you, President Nixon. He also triggered the extreme inflation of the late 70s when he did the wage and price freeze thing at essentially the same time. I recall quite clearly that a lot of economists were horrified, because they knew full well that after the freeze ended, inflation would skyrocket. Which it did.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 12:30 PM

13. only problem is it is not "market" driven....

And hasn't been for a long time. Stock prices have little to do with the underlying performance or future of company earnings. Volatility is caused by large movements of money driven by investors self interests.

There are dozens of companies whose stocks should be worth zero, but which are trading near their highs.

It's not a game individual investors can do much more in than going along for the ride. A ride making others rich.

If you are deep into the money stream, like a futures trader, than you will surely argue otherwise. But the "market" has clay feet, and there is no intrinsic value in any share of stock.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:35 PM

24. I am not at all deep into the money stream and I definitely don't do futures.

Futures are gambling. Buying various regular stocks or funds is not.

People here freak out over a few hundred points drop in the Dow, never notice a few hundred points increase. They also don't pay much attention to the percentage change. Right now the Dow is down about two and a half percent. It's actually up almost 12% so far this year. And no, the stock prices are not totally separate from underlying performance. Some times, with some companies, especially various internet stocks, there's a disconnect. But old established companies? Utilities? I don't think so.

Let me say this: If I had not been invested in the stock market all these years (40 or more) and had simply put money into a savings account, I'd be destitute. Probably still working at some miserable cashier or fast food job and barely scraping by. Instead, thanks to many years of investing, largely helped by a good financial advisor, I'm very comfortable. Between SS, two annuities, a small pension, and regular withdrawals from my investments, I'm just fine. Indeed, I'm taking out less than I could, which means I can not only increase that withdrawal over time, but those investments continue to grow. If there really were a genuine crash I can reduce that withdrawal, which I actually did for a couple of months in 2020 when there was that sharp drop in the beginning of the year. My investments were down a whole let less than the Dow as a whole, again thanks to my wonderful advisor. Even so, the reduction seemed prudent.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #24)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:56 PM

29. I didn't say you couldn't do well investing...

Just that the market isn't and never will be based on the value of the companies that make it up.

Stocks are a vehicle to move money around. You can make money investing in junk bonds, but that doesn't mean there is anything there.

So yes, you can make money in stocks. Until you can't. And we investors will be the last ones to be allowed to get money out when things go sideways.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 04:41 PM

34. Ummm, you can sell your stocks at any time.

Your statement about investors being the last ones allowed to get money out makes no sense.

If the market isn't and never will be based on the value of the companies that make it up" then what's the point of the P/E ratio? It does provide at least a rough measure of value, and itself gives a worthwhile measure of value.

The essential thing is not to try timing the market. Buy stocks or funds you think are good ones, and stay with them for a while. Don't try to buy and sell at every small twitch in the market.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #34)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 05:11 PM

36. well, almost any time.....

The recent nonsense surrounding gamestop should make that clear. No, you can't sell right now. People can buy, just not sell. Oh, but that only applies to regular investors.....

When collapses happen, regular investors don't sell under the same rules as professionals. We end up at the back of the line.

in good times, yes, you can sell. Try to get out in a crash, and you will be at the bottom of the pile.

So you can make money, until you can't. And that includes cashing out.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #36)

Tue Jul 20, 2021, 12:03 AM

39. Gamestop was hardly the way things normally work.

Not that I paid too much attention to that because it was so freaking obvious that there was incredible overt manipulation going on, and that a lot of stupid people were going to lose, but are you saying there was a time when no one could sell, only buy? In which case, where were the stocks coming from to be bought?

Again, buying good stocks or mutual funds for the long term is what a sensible investor should be doing. Trying to time the market or make some kind of a killing is beyond dumb and those who do that have no standing to complain when they learn the hard way that those things are beyond dumb.

It's the panic selling that does in the ill-informed speculators.

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Response to PoindexterOglethorpe (Reply #39)

Tue Jul 20, 2021, 09:44 AM

40. that is exactly what happened....

The stocks available to buy came from institutional investors. Different group, different rules. Short sellers were doing the buying for the most part.

Yes, it was unusual. But it was all allowable under the rules. The same rules that allow after market sales. The same rules that allow brokerages to prioritize buy and sell orders so their orders move first.

But that is all just plumbing. The structure is what is rotten. Like a ponzi scheme, everyone is fat, dumb, and happy while money comes in. Eventually though, it will want to flow out (what will happen when all the boomers start liquidating stock portfolios? What will the impact be as fewer and fewer workers have 401k's or enough income to salt some away?).

Stocks rise as money pours in, not as companies perform better. It is a market based on money flow, not intrinsic value.

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Response to getagrip_already (Reply #40)

Tue Jul 20, 2021, 11:46 AM

42. At the risk of repeating myself,

what happened with Gamestop was highly unusual. Highly. And anyone who was dumb enough to jump in, thinking they'd get rich quickly, does not deserve sympathy. Perhaps you were one of them which is why you're so convinced the entire market is rigged.

I doubt most Boomers will start liquidating stock portfolios on a significant basis. For one thing, most of them are (I feel safe saying this) invested in mutual funds, not so many individual stocks. For another, most stocks are held in various funds, not by individuals.

This is NOT the market of the 1920s, when a few people could actually play games with how they bought and sold stocks. After the Crash a lot of changes were put in place so that the manipulation couldn't happen that way again. Yeah, occasionally something like Gamestop happens, but rarely. Rarely.

And right now the Dow is up 543 points, meaning it's gained back most of what it lost yesterday.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 12:26 PM

12. Day trading profiteers? We've seen it before.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 12:40 PM

14. Day trading is gambling -- investing in managed funds is usually the safest long term strategy

I work for a non-profit and have money in a variety of index funds and other managed funds.

Over the last 10 years my accounts have averaged over 12% return. Over the last 60 years the stock market averages growth at about a 7-10% every decade. Which means using the rule of 72, that every decade families that use managed funds will double their investment.

My brother lost literally hundreds of thousands dollars day trading the profit from selling a Brooklyn home and moving south for a job. That was gambling and he cost himself working an extra 4 or 5 years to make that money back.

I will let my money ride in these accounts and when I reach retirement age I should be able to withdraw 5% of the 403B and never touch the principal in a significant way (a bad year I might, but when the bounce comes back, it'll come back).

Using the stock market, managed by professionals and computer indices, instead of savings or bonds that make less interest than the inflationary rate is a way to grow generational wealth.

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Response to JT45242 (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:46 PM

26. Thank you for posting this.

I often feel like I'm the only person on DU who sees any point in investing.

Day trading became hugely popular a couple of decades back, and there was horror story after horror story like your brother's. It's as if all the nay-sayers here think all stock market investing is day trading or something similar that truly is gambling.

I am 72 years old and even as I take money out of my investments, they continue to grow. And I can do things like get extra money to pay for hideously expensive dental work. If I'd never invested, I'd be walking around with about half a mouthful of teeth, looking like some unfortunate stereotypical trailer trash.

What's nice about the pandemic and not travelling as much, is that my travel funds are accumulating, and somewhere down the road I'll take another nice cruise. Someday.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 01:00 PM

16. I love red days

My favorite stocks are discounted.

Buy the dip!

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Response to Dopers_Greed (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:18 PM

22. Nope...

I never try to time the market; I donít buy when it drops and I donít sell when it rises.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 01:35 PM

18. Buying today.

I moved out of stocks about two weeks ago, a d this morningís drop was enough to coax me back in at todayís closing prices. I have my 401(k) equivalent in the federal employee TSP funds. Moving back into stocks for a quick swing trade.

I average about 2-4%better per year than the S&P 500. Have been for years. Enjoying retirement now at age 60. Good luck!

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 01:53 PM

20. Unvaccinated people effect the economy

This is what this is. So I can live my life as a vaccinated person and still be affected by those not vaccinated.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:11 PM

21. Other sources are saying it is earnings season; thus the drop.

I tend to think it is rigged by a few against many.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 02:55 PM

28. my only solitude in all of this is...

anti-vaxx morons 401k's also take a hit.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 03:29 PM

30. Big whoop

It dropped 1800 in one week in October, 2020 with a drop of almost 1000 on Oct. 27-28 alone.

"The Dow is not the economy and the economy is not the Dow."

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 04:31 PM

31. No worries, my gurus have me informed

and I've been much hedged almost daily for months. Today was mild-ish, but I would like to ditch or hedge a couple small ideas.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 04:53 PM

35. So the result of today's stock crash is that the market is down to...

Öwhere it was on June 23rd. Iím good.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 10:01 PM

37. Let me see

Does this have any bearing on me, someone who has never had more than a few hundred dollars to his name in his entire life? (Hell, based on some of the bragging in this thread, some here seemed to have more saved in just one account than I have earned my entire life, and I have been a wage slave since I was 12.) I was broke, I am broke, and I shall forever be broke. So, no worries here!

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Mon Jul 19, 2021, 11:25 PM

38. Market participants needn't worry

The market only craters/plummets/plunges when I'm in it.

If I'm not in it (which I haven't been for a long time) the market goes up, up, up (with only an occasional hiccup like today).

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Tue Jul 20, 2021, 10:30 AM

41. I checked closing numbers 7/19/21

The Dow closed at 33,963. NASDAQ closed at 14,274, and S&P closed at 4258. I notice when the radio news mentions the stock markets, they say how much it gained or lost, but they don't mention where it closed.

My h.s. history teacher always said if the Dow broke 1000, people would have a ticker tape parade. Heh.

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