HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Latest Breaking News (Forum) » Data shows Covid booster ...

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 12:18 AM

Data shows Covid booster shots are 'not appropriate' at this time, U.S. and international scientists

Source: CNBC

An expert review of scientific evidence to date has concluded that Covid-19 vaccine booster shots are not needed at this time for the general public, a group of leading U.S. and international scientists said Monday in the peer-reviewed journal The Lancet.

The conclusion by scientists, including two senior Food and Drug Administration officials and the World Health Organization, came as studies continue to show the authorized Covid vaccines in the U.S. remain highly effective against severe disease and hospitalization caused by the fast-spreading delta variant.

While Covid vaccine effectiveness against mild disease may wane over time, protection against severe disease may persist, the scientists said. That’s because the body’s immune system is complex, they said, and has other defenses besides antibodies that may protect someone from getting seriously sick.

“Current evidence does not, therefore, appear to show a need for boosting in the general population, in which efficacy against severe disease remains high,” the scientists wrote, adding the wide distribution of boosters is “not appropriate at this stage in the pandemic.”

Read more: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/13/covid-booster-shots-data-shows-third-shots-not-appropriate-at-this-time-scientists-conclude.html

103 replies, 4087 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 103 replies Author Time Post
Reply Data shows Covid booster shots are 'not appropriate' at this time, U.S. and international scientists (Original post)
SouthBayDem Sep 14 OP
Polybius Sep 14 #1
WHITT Sep 14 #2
carpetbagger Sep 14 #3
brush Sep 14 #5
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #61
JanMichael Sep 20 #102
Demsrule86 Sep 20 #103
WHITT Sep 14 #10
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #60
Miguelito Loveless Sep 14 #24
orangecrush Sep 16 #59
cardonay Sep 16 #70
SheltieLover Sep 16 #71
WHITT Sep 16 #72
SheltieLover Sep 16 #74
roamer65 Sep 14 #4
wnylib Sep 14 #6
Sgent Sep 14 #14
usaf-vet Sep 14 #21
wnylib Sep 14 #25
WHITT Sep 14 #37
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #66
Steelrolled Sep 18 #96
LudwigPastorius Sep 14 #7
caraher Sep 14 #9
WHITT Sep 14 #11
Sgent Sep 14 #15
BumRushDaShow Sep 14 #20
WHITT Sep 14 #39
BumRushDaShow Sep 14 #41
WHITT Sep 14 #43
wnylib Sep 14 #28
caraher Sep 14 #8
WHITT Sep 14 #12
DFW Sep 14 #13
WHITT Sep 14 #40
muriel_volestrangler Sep 14 #47
WHITT Sep 15 #49
muriel_volestrangler Sep 15 #50
WHITT Sep 15 #51
muriel_volestrangler Sep 15 #52
WHITT Sep 15 #56
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #62
Tomconroy Sep 14 #16
muriel_volestrangler Sep 15 #53
Sancho Sep 14 #17
usaf-vet Sep 14 #22
usaf-vet Sep 14 #23
wnylib Sep 14 #29
BumRushDaShow Sep 14 #18
Karma13612 Sep 16 #67
Name removed Sep 17 #78
BumRushDaShow Sep 17 #80
Name removed Sep 17 #82
BumRushDaShow Sep 17 #84
Name removed Sep 17 #85
BumRushDaShow Sep 17 #87
Name removed Sep 17 #90
BumRushDaShow Sep 17 #91
BumRushDaShow Sep 17 #81
Name removed Sep 17 #86
BumRushDaShow Sep 17 #88
Name removed Sep 17 #89
BumRushDaShow Sep 17 #92
cadoman Sep 19 #99
BumRushDaShow Sep 19 #100
LisaL Sep 14 #19
Name removed Sep 17 #79
OneCrazyDiamond Sep 14 #26
Corgigal Sep 14 #27
wnylib Sep 14 #31
Corgigal Sep 14 #32
Farmer-Rick Sep 14 #30
JohnSJ Sep 14 #34
LisaL Sep 14 #35
wnylib Sep 14 #36
JohnSJ Sep 14 #33
Bayard Sep 14 #38
WHITT Sep 14 #42
OneCrazyDiamond Sep 14 #44
WHITT Sep 15 #48
OneCrazyDiamond Sep 15 #55
Strelnikov_ Sep 15 #54
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #63
Name removed Sep 17 #83
Random Boomer Sep 14 #45
OneCrazyDiamond Sep 14 #46
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #64
OneCrazyDiamond Sep 16 #68
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #69
Skittles Sep 16 #58
Demsrule86 Sep 16 #65
Name removed Sep 17 #77
Deb Sep 16 #57
Sancho Sep 16 #73
Name removed Sep 17 #76
Sancho Sep 17 #93
Steelrolled Sep 16 #75
BumRushDaShow Sep 18 #94
Steelrolled Sep 18 #95
BumRushDaShow Sep 19 #97
Steelrolled Sep 19 #98
BumRushDaShow Sep 19 #101

Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 01:08 AM

1. Good thing I didn't get my booster

I'll wait it out, I'm happy with the Moderna that I got a while back.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 01:15 AM

2. They're Full Of Shit

They're ignoring the rising breakthrough infections of those fully vaccinated, and the CDC is only counting those that are hospitalized.

They also claim those who are unvaccinated should come first, except there isn't a single unvaccinated person in the country that cannot find a dose of vaccine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 01:29 AM

3. WHO takes a broader view.

In their estimation, vaccines could save more lives with developing world 1st vaccinations as opposed to industrialized world 3rd.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to carpetbagger (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 01:53 AM

5. Agreed. And it's rare that breakthrough infections lead to...

hospitalization, and even less in death. Winger media of course greatly exaggerates any deaths of breakthrough infections, as rare as they are.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to brush (Reply #5)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:36 AM

61. If my husband or I get sick...we won't be able to work for God knows how long. and we won't

get paid...can't get unemployment either in Ohio because we are 'not available for work'. I am going to do all I can to stay healthy. There are already five cases at my husband's place of work...and one is in a vaccinated individual. There is no help at all in Ohio and other states for pandemic related illness.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #61)

Mon Sep 20, 2021, 06:08 AM

102. One of my coworkers was out for 2 weeks

They were vaccinated since last March or April just like me.

His explanation was that was like a bad flu. Also the symptoms lasted at least 10 days. So you're right people can't work if they get it even if they are vaccinated and the damn thing does tend to last for almost 2 weeks for most people. On top of that the spouse still hasn't gotten sense of smell back so long haul is a possibility even if you are vaccinated. And since the smell thing might not be the only thing. we don't know that yet.

I'm all for third vaccines for working people. We already have a labor problem. Without boosters we're just making that worse.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JanMichael (Reply #102)

Mon Sep 20, 2021, 10:26 AM

103. Exactly, and I think virus will be wasted trying to send abroad to areas where they can't

manage the protocols for keeping it cold etc...and honestly, like it is not our job to intervene in civil wars, it is not our job to heal the world...sure we help as much as possible...but not at the expense of Americans. It is in our interest to do what we can to stop the spread...but not if it causes it to spread here and destroys our economy and kills people.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to carpetbagger (Reply #3)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 04:08 AM

10. Except

the boosters would only come from mRNA vaccines, which the 'developing world' doesn't have the minus 100 degree storage capabilities required, so the dispersion of boosters wouldn't deprive them of a single dose.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to carpetbagger (Reply #3)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:34 AM

60. Yeah that is what I think...so it is not because we wouldn't benefit from a booster...maybe save

lives, the scientist think others would benefit more...ah I have the intention of getting a shot at CVS on Saturday. I had Covid and will do all I can not to get it again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #2)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 08:44 AM

24. Anyone in the US who wants the vaccine can find it

Not true a lot of other places. The 19 million doses of vaccine that went into the garbage could have saved a lot of lives in African, Asia, and South America.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:20 AM

59. +1

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 11:13 AM

70. Scientists vs message board nicknames

 

Tough choice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #2)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 12:18 PM

71. Yup, they are

Did you see the news a week or so ago where 2 "top FDA officials" resigned because of Joe's push for boosters?

Look at the Israeli data. They strongly urged US already to provide boosters at 5 months.

Israelis will present to FDA tomorrow, the same day they will vote on whether to allow us boosters.

Joe needs to thoroughly clean house at FDA & CDC, imo.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SheltieLover (Reply #71)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 01:06 PM

72. Yep

Yesterday, NBC called the opinion piece by those two whackos a "study", which it clearly is not. Then there was a report that the FDA had "studies" both for and against, and now the report is the top of the FDA is remaining neutral. This is bullshit.

Could not agree more about cleaning house. Seems some people want to keep this pandemic going to use as a campaign issue in '22.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #72)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 02:04 PM

74. I'm pretty sure Joe will clear them out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 01:53 AM

4. Fuck WHO.

I have zero trust in them.

Start administering boosters ASAP for the general population.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to roamer65 (Reply #4)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 03:24 AM

6. I don't think the OP opposition to boosters

comes from WHO. It is from an article in Lancet.

I am not a medical expert, so I am wary of challenging them. But, on the other hand, there is the experience of Israel.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wnylib (Reply #6)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 05:13 AM

14. The fight comes

because Biden announced the booster expansion before there was good science on it; Pfizer and Moderna are poised to make billions; most of the science comes from Israel which has some anomalous results; a strong belief in vaccine equity and the thought that the first shot in a poor person does a lot more good than the 3rd shot in a rich one.

The first two authors are former high-ranking (as of in the last month) FDA officials that got pissed off that the White House announced the booster before the FDA or anyone else had reviewed the data from the drug makers. The rest are from the WHO and similar organizations. Similar organizations are also complaining about youth immunizations.

I mostly agree with them although I think they should still be given to high risk people and essential workers at a minimum. A mild illness still means 10 days or so out of work, and a week running a fever.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sgent (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 07:48 AM

21. EXACTLY! As always one size does not fit all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sgent (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 09:26 AM

25. How is Israel an anomaly?

And how does the virus distinguish between rich and poor?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sgent (Reply #14)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:20 AM

37. Oh

It's those two whack-jobs. They were full of it then, they're still full of it now. THEY were the ones who were being political, while falsely accusing the WH of being political. Good riddance.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sgent (Reply #14)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:55 AM

66. I do not agree with them. I believe everyone should get a booster. And I don't care if

along the way these companies make money.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sgent (Reply #14)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 09:38 PM

96. Yeah, I'm disappointed I can't get a booster anytime soon,

and I will not lie to get my way.

The FDA is not a cowboy outfit, and they are conservative for good reason.

I hope that the administration learns to be more cautious about commenting on medical matters - we had too much of that with Trump.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to LudwigPastorius (Reply #7)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 03:35 AM

9. This doesn't refute the recommendation

At best this supports targeted boosters. But the public health goal needs to be not maximizing individual immunity within our own country, but reducing the global number of cases. The rate at which breakthrough cases emerge, coupled with the generally lower severity of such cases, indicates that giving people initial immunity will have a bigger impact on the number of infections than would allocating the still-limited supplies of vaccines to boosters in the general population. Give boosters to the sick and elderly, and ship the rest of the doses to countries where people need (and will take!) them. That's the best path to stopping the proliferation of variants and closing this phase of the pandemic.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caraher (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 04:13 AM

11. Can't Ship mRNA Vaccines

to the 'developing world', and any country that has the required storage facilities can afford to buy their own vaccines.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #11)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 05:16 AM

15. Even in developing countries

most of them can be stored at a few hospitals and distributed for HCW and some high risk patients.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sgent (Reply #15)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 07:26 AM

20. "most of them can be stored at a few hospitals"

Unfortunately in many of those countries, the "few hospitals" are located in the "few large cities" that are often far far away from the village-oriented or rural populace that need it the most.

We have the same exact situation here in the U.S. when it comes to getting vaccine to our own rural areas - and that is with having road infrastructure that many countries don't have. The fact that you have hospitals in the state of Idaho "shipping" their patients to Washington state hospitals is a case in point.

I think this is why the adenovirus-based vaccines were being hoped for in terms of storage requirements vs the mRNA ones. But the current adenovirus vaccines have had their own issues, although they represent the bulk of the COVID-19 vaccines that are actually being manufactured and distributed.

I.e., I believe the Pfizer and Moderna ones are the only mRNA-based ones and the rest around the world are adenovirus ones (e.g., Janssen (J&J), UK AstraZeneca, along with the Chinese Sinovac & Russian Sputnik V vaccines).

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #20)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:26 AM

39. Yep

We already donated our entire inventory of AstraZeneca, as it only requires regular refrigeration, and next they're supposed to donate some J&J, and whatever the name if the Covax one is, I forget.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #39)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:33 AM

41. I believe "Covax" is the name of an international organization

that is handling the logistics of compiling info on the donations, distribution, and tracking of the vaccines being directed to various countries around the world.

I think that other adenovirus-type vaccine is called "Novavax" and they are still debating whether to apply for approval here but have gone on and applied in the EU and elsewhere (I think Japan).

ETA - I had posted about what was actually being distributed around the world (at least as of this past June) - https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=15826484





And also posted the State Department's vaccine shipping/tracking link - https://www.state.gov/covid-19-recovery/vaccine-deliveries/

where as of yesterday (9/13/21), they are listing "134,047,420" doses shipped.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #41)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:47 AM

43. Yes

That's another one that only requires regular refrigeration, which Covax wants to add to their donation list.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caraher (Reply #9)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 09:51 AM

28. The infection rate in my county is at 11%.

16% of the infections are in vaccinated people. 7% are in partiallly vaccinated people. 50% of the infections are in people under age 40.

Seniors over 65 have the highest vaccination rate in the county. They also have the highest hospitalization and death rate here. In my mind there is no question about the need for boosters for people over 65.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 03:29 AM

8. The pandemic is a global problem

We need to get shots in everyone worldwide before we devote resources to some marginal additional gain in immunity for the US general population. It's not so much about whether you or I can improve our immunity by 20 or 30%, when leaving others totally unprotected will continue to evolve variants that might defeat our vaccines.

Given 300 million doses, what will reduce infections more - giving boosters to 300 million people who already have substantial immunity, or fully immunizing 150 million people? The answer is the latter, and that's something this expert review reflects.

The only people in the US who should be considered for boosters at this time are the elderly and immunocompromised.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caraher (Reply #8)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 04:18 AM

12. 'Everyone Worldwide'

doesn't have the proper storage requirements, so providing whatever number of boosters doesn't deprive anyone anywhere of a vaccine.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #12)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 04:49 AM

13. This has to be taken into consideration

Last edited Tue Sep 14, 2021, 12:26 PM - Edit history (1)

You aren't preventing starvation if you airlift 100 tons of frozen food to a central distribution point in the Sahara that has neither refrigeration or even the electricity to power refrigerators if they had them. You can only help the locals if you have the facilities and infrastructure to implement your aid.

100 million doses of vaccine that will deteriorate before they even get unpacked helps no one. Better to distribute them while they are effective, and distribute vaccine that remains effective under local conditions where we can. Better to give Moderna boosters in the USA than send them to third world areas where they will be useless to the people there before they are even offloaded.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DFW (Reply #13)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:30 AM

40. Exactly

I don't get why the WHO is blind to this. Not providing boosters of the mRNA vaccines doesn't get anybody in any other country a single dose.

Do I gotta say "DUH!" ?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #40)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 03:45 PM

47. You really seem to think most of the world lives in rural isolation

There are big cities all over developing countries. They have universities, or central hospitals, that can have cold storage facilities. They have millions of people who can go to vaccination distributing points in a few hours - and their problem will be traffic, not lack of roads. Even without low temperature freezers, the Pfizer vaccine lasts for 30 days in dry ice.

No, you don't get to say "Duh", because you just don't understand what the situation is.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #47)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:46 PM

49. Nobody

would be so irresponsible as to risk sending a large shipment of mRNA vaccines to anyplace without the required minus 100 degree storage on that ridiculously short expiration schedule.

DUH.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #49)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 03:09 PM

50. Pfizer-BioNTech Pledges 2 Billion Doses to Poor Nations

https://www.voanews.com/covid-19-pandemic/pfizer-biontech-pledges-2-billion-doses-poor-nations

You really go out of your way to be annoying, don't you?

US President Joe Biden on Thursday pledged 500 million doses of the BioNTech-Pfizer coronavirus vaccine to developing nations.

https://www.dw.com/en/covid-biden-pledges-donation-of-500-million-vaccine-doses/a-57849161

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #50)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 03:17 PM

51. Eh

low- and middle-income nations

and

lower-income nations


are not the 'developing world'.

What's actually "annoying" is those that reply with non sequiturs.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #51)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 03:31 PM

52. Yes, they are

For instance:

The proposed new Developing Countries Trading Scheme aims to grow trade with lower income nations

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-uk-scheme-to-drive-trade-with-developing-countries

Yet, blood products are important sources of HIV infection in low- and middle-income nations. Great care must be taken to prevent plasma therapy from fueling HIV epidemics in the developing world.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541-020-0209-2

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to muriel_volestrangler (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 07:31 PM

56. I See You're Fond Of Non Sequiturs.




Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to caraher (Reply #8)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:40 AM

62. I want to see Americans receive boosters now...ending this here would free up resources...

our economy is in trouble...have you tried to buy a phone or a car lately...people are getting laid off as the big three and the transplant autos can't get chips. Phones are affected as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 05:55 AM

16. I know I read somewhere can't remember where) that the average age of

People who died from breakthrough cases is 68. So approving them for at least older people would seem appropriate

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink



Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 06:25 AM

17. Link to the original Lancet article? It is an opinion - not a new research study...

That's what it looks like to me...

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00486-2/fulltext

The administration of a third dose is motivated by fear of the B.1.617.2 (delta) variant but the intensity of this fear is unfounded, as there is now evidence that vaccines licensed in HICs are effective enough against it. Conversely, there is no definitive evidence if, and when, a third dose is necessary, and much-needed trials—the only context in which third-dose administration should be acceptable—are eagerly awaited. There is some evidence of waning antibody titres, which is an axiom of any vaccine administration that does not equal waning cellular immunity. Although the world has ubiquitously grappled with the plague of vaccine hesitancy, the level of coverage in HICs and the rates of administration of new doses should now be sufficient to allow the redirection of surplus doses to those who have none via the COVAX initiative. It is deeply ironic that COVID-19 vaccine acceptance might actually be much higher in LMICs than in HICs. A point must also be made about increasingly risky behaviour—it is irresponsible to encourage relaxation of basic physical distancing measures such as mask wearing in public or confined spaces even for vaccinated individuals, which may well be contributing to a large proportion of breakthrough infections.

A crucial problem for getting vaccines to LMICs is an interrupted cold chain. This is the case in Africa, where many communities live without continuous power supplies, and freezers that cost up to $20 000 are unaffordable. While capacity building is ongoing, countries could focus on donating and administering vector vaccines that are easier to store than mRNA vaccines and are sufficiently safe and effective, particularly in older individuals. Preliminary evidence from the Com-COV trial shows that heterologous vaccination is safe and induces robust immune responses, a viable option for countries that cannot rely on a steady stream of vaccines. There have been calls, reasonable in a time of global catastrophe, to waive intellectual property rights to facilitate local vaccine manufacturing, which should currently focus on LMICs with sufficiently robust regulatory capacities to ensure the quality of local production, as argued by the Center for Global Development. Vaccine donors and corporations can think about how to help with these issues in the short and long terms.

Vulnerable people in HICs have already been prioritised; vulnerable people in LMICs cannot wait until 2023 for their turn, and this wait is in the best interest of no one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sancho (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 07:54 AM

22. Apologies, but! Again I repeat myself. As always one size does not fit all.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sancho (Reply #17)


Response to Sancho (Reply #17)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 09:59 AM

29. Thank you for pointing out that

this is an opinion piece, an editorial article, and not a new study. Its conclusion is the same as we already knew from WHO, that they favor sending vaccines abroad over giving boosters here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 06:49 AM

18. I think everyone is now seeing that the "scientific community" is rarely "unanimous" about anything

This has been the case forever. You will always have disagreements over what any "facts" and "evidence" actually "mean".

In this case, you have experts who operate in different "lanes" (medical personnel vs epidemiologists vs virologists) and sometimes there will be a clash of opinions. And in the case of a respiratory virus that primarily spreads through airborne transmission, you can add in another group of experts who deal with airflow dynamics and particle movement.

The clashes a year ago regarding "droplets" vs "aerosolization" was a perfect example of scientists and medical personnel "assuming things" outside of their areas of expertise. And in a number of cases, some were loudly making bad "black or white conclusions" that had an impact on masking decisions that should have had enough "shades of gray" to allow time for other experts to have a chance to look at the data and provide some input.

Having listened to both CDC's & FDA's Committees when they streamed their meetings/discussions the past year, you will often find a couple out of the majority of participants, who will disagree, sometimes vehemently, but they usually have some reasoning behind "why". But in general, they have all been working in tandem.

In the case of a "booster" - one of things brought out in their last meeting was use of the term "booster". A number of members insisted that use of the term itself was a misnomer and believed that the way it is being described/formulated *should* have it considered to be a "3rd dose" (or a "3rd in a series" for the original "2-dose" regiments) vs a "booster dose". Since a large number of vaccines are initially used in children, many of the Committee physician members actually work in the pediatric field and have become accustomed to how vaccines are characterized for that demographic.

This is a "techie" issue that is sadly playing out in the lay community. It hearkens back to a similar "technical" dispute between the NWS, the media, and the lay public revolving around Hurricane Sandy and its "technical" (per past definitions and practice) "type change" from "Hurricane Sandy" to "Super Storm Sandy", with its "tropical" nature "technically" stripped at the latitude of landfall, thus "technically" no longer qualifying as a "hurricane" (which is a tropical system), but had transitioned into a "non-tropical cyclone". But the outrage was palatable because everything else about it was "hurricane like". The bitterness a decade later persists because of that as the terms have different meanings, particularly when it comes to insurance claims, among other things, and changes were made to try to rectify these "technicalities" due to public reaction.

I think there are a myriad of issues here that they have had to deal with that are literally unprecedented - the virus itself (and its mutations), the vaccines (and how novel they are - particularly the mRNA ones), the scope of the pandemic (something not seen since 1918), and the politicization of how to handle moving on and combating the the impact of infections.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #18)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 07:08 AM

67. Great analysis!! Eom

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #18)


Response to Name removed (Reply #78)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:19 PM

80. That vote was done based on the "age" concerns for age 16

They are NOW voting on the SAME question but for ages 65+.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #80)


Response to Name removed (Reply #82)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:29 PM

84. Pfizer's request was for approval for 16 and older

and the Committee disagreed HOWEVER they just approved for 65+.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #84)


Response to Name removed (Reply #85)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:36 PM

87. That youngest demographic approved in the BLA is who they were (ie., age 16)

was who they were having issues with regarding potential myocarditis and having little data on them in general.

You need to actually turn the damn thing on and stop trolling the thread.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #87)


Response to Name removed (Reply #90)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:57 PM

91. That word "false"



I have been watching the discussions all day long (they just ended the meeting). And everything you are posting is clearly from someone who is completely clueless.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Name removed (Reply #78)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:25 PM

81. And here is the SECOND vote - UNANIMOUS for 65+

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #81)


Response to Name removed (Reply #86)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:36 PM

88. Are you watching the discussion?

If not, you are talking out of your ass.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #88)


Response to Name removed (Reply #89)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 04:58 PM

92. No you are watching

your understanding of the actual Vaccine approval process being torn to pieces.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #18)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 12:26 PM

99. how do we identify genuine scientific disagreement from misinformation then?

Throughout this pandemic we saw so much misinformation with respect to droplet theory (settled science), mask efficacy (settled science), vaccine effectiveness and safety (settled science), the ineffectiveness and dangers of treating COVID with ivermectin and hydroxywhatever (settled science), effectiveness of lockdowns and distancing (settled science).

There were literally licensed doctors in white lab coats promoting misinformation on ALL the above topics. The _inventor_ of mRNA vaccines (Dr. Robert Malone) is even out promoting misinformation about how the product he created should be used.

How is a layperson supposed to differentiate between misinformation and genuine scientific disagreement like we see here with the booster shots?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to cadoman (Reply #99)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 01:40 PM

100. It's a problem

but it's not a new one.

The field, particularly when it comes to R&D, is extremely competitive. I point you to this ugly chapter of history that provided the cornerstone and jumping off point for what we are now seeing used for the design of mRNA vaccines -

RANT ON





(am trying to remember which class I was in during college where I ran an X-ray diffraction crystallography experiment - it may have been in a PChem lab and it was an old hulking machine - at least the one they had )


Yet you had this, penned by a fucking racist and sexist -



The reality - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jun/23/sexism-in-science-did-watson-and-crick-really-steal-rosalind-franklins-data




TEXT

Rosalind Franklin Society
@WomenScienceRFS
We're pleased to include this special issue of RFS Briefings commemorating Rosalind Franklin’s 100th Birthday!
👉 https://rfs.memberclicks.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=107:rfs-briefings-bd--july-25--2020&catid=23:briefings&Itemid=136

#womeninSTEM #womeninscience #Franklin100 #RosalindFranklin #womeninresearch
Image
8:52 AM · Jul 25, 2020





TEXT

2BScientific
@2BScientific
Rosalind Franklin was an incredible woman who achieved much in her 37 years. Take a look at a quick summary of all she did
Image
6:00 AM · Feb 11, 2017





TEXT

Cara SM, Vaccinated
@CaraSantaMaria
In the shadows of every celebrated scientist, there are other contributors who may be more deserving of our adulation.

#ScienceResearch #FemaleScientists #ScienceHistory #InclusiveScience #RosalindFranklin

https://undark.org/2020/10/22/the-fiction-of-individual-genius/
Image
7:50 PM · Nov 1, 2020




RANT OFF

And to actually answer your question - it will be difficult because of the proliferation of different types of media nowadays that can "magnify opinions", going far beyond the non-electronic, slower distribution of the print media of old that included books, newspapers and pamphlets, and magazine journals.

And even with that, the "opinion" part (i.e., "interpretation of what a set of facts might mean" ) will probably never go away.

Case in point - the ridiculous debate of - "Yes wine is good for you, say scientists based on a study" to the "No, wine is bad for you say scientists based on a study" silliness that continues decade after decade.

About the only thing I can suggest is to let your mind have a little wiggle room so you keep an open mind and be ready for a "change".

However I have found that in this era of "social media", although the "loudest voices" tend to "get heard", they are often overcompensating for a reason, and it's probably not a good one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 07:10 AM

19. These people seem to be a lot more concerned with

"vaccine inadequacy" rather than actual evidence of necessity of the boosters, if you ask me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #19)


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 09:36 AM

26. In The Masque of the Red Death

The wealthy tried to party in their walls, while the red death raged amongst the peasants. It still got them in the end.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 09:51 AM

27. The vaccine is against the disease,

not the infection. We could always catch the infection, in our nose for example, but our T and B memory cell should recognize the spike RNA and take it out. Autoimmune dysfunction persons, and maybe over aged 75 might need another booster. Scientists are saying this will probably be a yearly booster, like the flu.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Corgigal (Reply #27)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 10:10 AM

31. I'd modify that age to over 65.

In my area, according to the county health board's daily website statistics, people over 65 have the highest vaccination rate and the highest death rate.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to wnylib (Reply #31)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 10:15 AM

32. Could be.

I’m just telling you what I heard from This Week in Virology podcast. I listen to them weekly, and they aren’t selling me anything. Not telling you I can always follow 100 percent of the conversation, but I have learned a lot in the past year.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 10:01 AM

30. I don't buy it.

It is Not, not, not a research paper. It is just opinions of some political scientists who claim to have looked at the real research.

This sounds very political and Not based on the scientific method. They keep saying that Biden is wrong. So, sounds more like sour grapes then real research.

"Variant.Breakthrough cases accounted for about 1 in 5 newly diagnosed cases in six of the states, according to The New York Times. Hospitalizations and deaths among vaccinated people may be higher than previously thought as well."

"U.S. data show rising 'breakthrough' infections among fully vaccinated."

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/us-data-show-rising-breakthrough-infections-among-fully-vaccinated-2021-08-24/

They say themselves that "Covid vaccine effectiveness against mild disease may wane over time." It's Not "May"...it "Does" wane over time, there is clear evidence that vaccinations wane over a 6 to 8 month period. And even mild cases can leave permanent damage to the heart and lungs.

This just looks so much like Biden bashing and not like well thought out research.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 10:39 AM

34. You are right, this doesn't represent a consensus in the medical community

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 10:40 AM

35. Exactly.

Vaccinated people who are infected are also capable of spreading covid around. So even so-called "mild" infection should be avoided.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Farmer-Rick (Reply #30)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 10:41 AM

36. Completely agree. I remember back when

the Pfizer vaccine first came out that Pfizer said it was good for at least 6 months and there should be a reassessment in 6 months about whether an additional dose was necessary, based on real world experience with the vaccine.

Both Pfizer and Moderna have said that they considered making the vaccine a 3 shot series from the start, but since early test results showed good results at 2 doses, they decided to go with 2 due to the urgency to get large numbers of people vaccinated quickly. That was BEFORE delta.

Now the real world experience is validating earlier predictions that vaccine effectiveness would wane in 6 months and require a 3rd dose. It should have been a 3 dose shot to begin with. There are other vaccines that are also given in more than 2 doses, e.g. polio, which is 3 initial doses and a later booster to immunize against all variants of polio.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 10:37 AM

33. Regardless of these opinions, and that is what they are, there are plenty of scientists and

immunologists who have a different take, that boosters should be given.

Dr. Fauci for one.

Boris Johnson is suppossed to announce today that people over 50 in the UK will be eligible for a booster:

"The government said Tuesday that it will offer free booster shots to 30 million people in the country to protect front-line health workers, those over 50 and any other medically vulnerable people."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/britain-uk-covid-government/2021/09/14/12706676-14cb-11ec-a019-cb193b28aa73_story.html

The Lancet piece is NOT a consensus piece throughout the medical community

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:21 AM

38. I think WHO wants the rest of the world vaccinated

Before giving boosters to anyone else.

Hearing more reports of break though infections, especially with Delta. I remember reading a few months ago that even those of us who are fully vaccinated have dropped down to about 60% effectiveness.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bayard (Reply #38)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 11:36 AM

42. But

that doesn't get them a single dose. Only the mRNA vaccines would be used for boosters, which cannot be shipped to the developing world anyway.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #42)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 01:13 PM

44. Pfizer claims they can ship to developing nations.

The claim they have shipped 1.3 billion doses to 120 different countries.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OneCrazyDiamond (Reply #44)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:45 PM

48. Pfizer

is only shipping to countries that have minus 100 degree storage facilities. Countries that have minus 100 degree storage facilities can afford to purchase their own vaccines.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WHITT (Reply #48)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:05 PM

55. I don't know.

They claim they have storage solved too.
https://www.pfizer.com/news/hot-topics/distributing_our_covid_19_vaccine_to_the_world

You got to imagine they aren't just now thinking "hey cold storage is an issue".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bayard (Reply #38)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:01 PM

54. My proposal for the time being

1) Shots for late-adopters.

2) Boost immuno-compromised, high-risk groups after six months.

2a) Boost front line health care workers after six months.

3) Everyone else, boost after six months using vaccine that is about to be 'spoiled' (thrown out).

(edited to add 2a)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bayard (Reply #38)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:42 AM

63. I don't care what WHO wants personally.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #63)


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 02:14 PM

45. I can't afford even a "mild" case of Delta

Not only am I over 65, I have reduced lung capacity and other issues that are controlled with medication but that still make me less than hale and hearty. My wife has Parkinson's and diabetes, so even more vulnerable.

I'm getting a booster end of September, early October. Period.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Random Boomer (Reply #45)

Tue Sep 14, 2021, 03:35 PM

46. If you're vaccinated,

the odds of getting severely ill or dying from COVID-19 are extremely low. You both may have already been and not know it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OneCrazyDiamond (Reply #46)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:43 AM

64. Why should we play the 'odds' when a booster is available.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #64)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 09:46 AM

68. Where have the breakthrough variants come from, and

What was their vaccination rate?
If we dont vaccinate the poorer countries, we wont be safe no matter the boosters.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to OneCrazyDiamond (Reply #68)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 09:54 AM

69. There are now two people at my husband's job who had the vaccine and are sick...they are

not getting paid and may very well lose their jobs. And of course no matter how slim the possibility, they could die. We need to vaccinate here. I think we can vaccinate here and still help if needed. Why doesn't WHO vaccinate? Why is it our job? And I would point out that many scientists including Fauci do not agree with these few IMHO politically-minded folks who seem to think denying Americans a life-saving vaccine booster is needed to help poor countries with the vaccine situation. Joe Biden is taxed with keeping Americans safe. Vaccine boosters will do that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Random Boomer (Reply #45)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:10 AM

58. see, I think folk like you should be first

and I am very happy to wait until you folk get it...I am disgusted by the ME FIRST mentality of too many healthy folk

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skittles (Reply #58)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:52 AM

65. I agree. But you need to understand that the Me First mentality for many including me

Last edited Thu Sep 16, 2021, 08:04 AM - Edit history (1)

has to do with finances too. Hubs and I have been out of work off and on for well over a year...we faced a GM strike just before the pandemic hit too. There is no help available for people who get sick and can't work...chances are you lose your job too...we simply can't afford to get sick and there are many in our situation.

Also, health plans including Medicare or so my sister-in-law says are no longer covering deductibles so we could be left with huge medical bills. Many folks have large deductibles even in Medicare plans. Also, there is a political issue. President Biden is already facing lower polls in terms of the Pandemic. We need to do all we can to turn this around here before 22 and 24 or we will lose those elections. And I believe that should include boosters for all citizens with older Americans and those with medical issues first in line.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Random Boomer (Reply #45)


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 05:47 AM

57. Unknowing mild Covid case spreading is OK. But severe Covid case catching is not..

Did I get that right?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 01:18 PM

73. As discussed before, the Lancet article is an opinion, not new or original research...

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2799788

Basically, it's a letter to the editor. The CNBC folks are misleading.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sancho (Reply #73)


Response to Name removed (Reply #76)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:34 PM

93. The FDA wrote an article review??

I missed that...oh well.

I'm older and already have a third shot. I'm sure that as data come in the FDA will follow their rules.

The FDA are not serving as journal editors.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to SouthBayDem (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 10:13 PM

75. I can't really blame people who have little confidence in the scientific establishment.

To paraphrase Grace Hopper (and others):

The nice thing about scientific opinions on COVID is that you have so many to choose from; furthermore, if you do not like any of them, you can just wait for next week's model."

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Steelrolled (Reply #75)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 06:38 AM

94. As a sidenote about Adm. Hopper

my dad worked for the VA starting in the mid-'50s and was fortunate to have been taught COBOL by her during his career when he worked as a computer programmer (his unit did the programming for the distribution of VA checks here in Philly). My mom would always mention how he would talk about her all the time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #94)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 09:29 PM

95. That's a great story, thanks for sharing.

I'm sure she left an impression on many people throughout her life. Your dad must have had some interesting experiences being in the computer industry so early, and being a programmer when that was a rarity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Steelrolled (Reply #95)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 06:01 AM

97. When me and my sisters were kids

he would take us to the office every once in a while to show us around. The room with the mainframe was huge, had a raised floor, and was air-conditioned, and I was fascinated by the mag tape drives with the tapes jerking forward and back. He and his buddies would "entertain" us by loading a stack of punch cards in a punch card reader, where the cards had been punched (programmed) in a specific sequence so that when run through the reader, could create a "song". I literally just found this video and I had been thinking it was the reader doing the "sounds" but I bet it was actually activating an old IBM line printer like this -



I think I remember "Jingle Bells" being one of the "songs".

He used to bring home a couple plastic rings used on the tapes like this -



that we would throw around the house like frisbees.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to BumRushDaShow (Reply #97)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 12:14 PM

98. Fun memories.

I got my start in the waning days of punch cards and reel tapes. I believe you would press those rings onto tape reels to "write protect" them, so they couldn't be accidentally overwritten.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Steelrolled (Reply #98)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 02:12 PM

101. Yeah up until today when I was looking for some related info

I assumed they were write-protect rings because we had them for some of the older DEC systems (e.g. PDP 11/70). But apparently for some systems (like some IBM system tapes), they actually used "write enable" rings too, which was new to me!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread