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Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:29 AM

Vindman calls for Milley's resignation: 'He usurped civilian authority'

Source: The Hill

Retired Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, who testified against former President Trump during Trump's first impeachment trial, is calling for the resignation of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who, according to a forthcoming book, moved to limit Trump's ability to call for a military strike after the Capitol riot.

"If this is true GEN Milley must resign. He usurped civilian authority, broke Chain of Command, and violated the sacrosanct principle of civilian control over the military," Vindman tweeted on Tuesday. "It’s an extremely dangerous precedent. You can’t simply walk away from that."

The retired Army intelligence officer was responding to new reporting in an upcoming book about the end of Trump's presidency written by veteran journalist Bob Woodward and The Washington Post's Robert Costa.

In the book, Woodward and Costa report Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley moved to limit Trump's ability to call for a military strike or launch nuclear weapons following the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

Read more: https://thehill.com/policy/defense/572330-vindman-calls-for-milleys-resignation-he-usurped-civilian-authority



While I sort of agree with what Milley did, what he did was absolutely against the rules. If it happened to anyone but Trump, the entire country would be up in arms, and Milley would already be indicted.

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Reply Vindman calls for Milley's resignation: 'He usurped civilian authority' (Original post)
Calista241 Sep 15 OP
Scrivener7 Sep 15 #1
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marble falls Sep 15 #4
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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:31 AM

1. I totally disagree with Vindman. This is not the time for

"military chain of command at all costs" thinking

Vindman can think that. He kind of has to.

The rest of us shouldn't.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:34 AM

3. Exactly..where might we be had he not stepped in??!!

They were dangerous times, with no leader. Just a madman at the helm bent on destroying not only our country, but the world!

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:34 AM

4. Vindman is correct, Milley did a good thing in a bad precedent. Milley needs to resign.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:38 AM

11. No, Milley should be given a medal, he not only saved the country but the World.

Just imagine a Nuclear War, no one survives, the end of the planet.

Milley should not resign, he should be applauded. God forbid military officers have to be blind about the consequences of civilian orders, that is how we goofed up in Iraq, Afghanistan.

Milley did exactly what had to be done to save the country and the planet.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:44 AM

18. +1 n/t

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:46 AM

21. He circumvented law. I'm glad he did it. But I do not want military leader circumventing ...

... a government. I'd like to hear how he justified what he did. What are the safeguards in place in case of a President with an itchy nuclear trigger finger? There needs to be a hearing. Milley needs to explain why and how he broke the chain of command.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #21)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:52 AM

25. "I'd like to hear how he justified what he did."...He needed to save the country and the World?

And all humanity as well?

Is that a good excuse? I happen to think it is.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #25)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 10:48 PM

182. I AGREE WITH YOU. Trump THE ANTI CHRIST. You get rid of evil at ANY opportunity

YOU SAVE HUMANITY.


YOU SAID..... AND I AGREE :::: "He needed to save the country and the World? And all humanity as well?

Is that a good excuse? I happen to think it is."


AND ..... What on God's green earth would we say about saving the world against Hitler ???
YOU DAM WELL SAVE THE WORLD, THAT'S WHAT.

I think the General did the right thing.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:21 AM

52. No, Milley should resign, and then be given a medal of honor.

There is a time honored military tradition - "falling on the sword". Many military heroes sacrificed themselves for a greater good. Milley knew full well the consequences of his insubordination, both to the country and to himself. He, like many heroes before him, knew he would have to pay for this.

His oath of enlistment came into conflict with itself: he swore to uphold the Constitution AND obey the orders of the President (https://www.army.mil/values/oath.html). One way or the other, he had to break his oath.He chose to do the honorable thing.

He needs to resign. It will not make him a lesser man. On the contrary, it will cement his status as a self-sacrificing hero to his country.





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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #52)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:51 AM

83. The oath -- which I have taken, since I am a former army officer

Says that one is to obey lawful orders. An order to start a nuclear war because Trump is feeling personal pique because he lost the election would not be lawful.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #83)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:53 PM

97. Agreed

I too took that oath to the Constitution of the United States and was once in a role to employ tactical nukes through a 155mm howitzer. I think any reasonable and rational officer would have interpreted such an order to nuke another country as being without cause and therefore an unlawful order. I think Milley acted within his authority. Although the president has the ultimate authority to authorize the nukes, it is also likely that Milley would be in the decision-chain to release the use of nuclear weapons.

I am surprised the Vindman had this to say. He seemed to be a competent and ethical officer from what I could see. Since it appears that Trump didn't order a nuclear attack, Milley didn't countermand the order.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #83)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:05 PM

100. I stand corrected. Just found a reply on DU that disqualifies my argument

https://democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1014&pid=2800360

Trump never gave orders to be obeyed or disobeyed. Milley's infraction was not a failure to uphold his oath. His infraction was that, anticipating, but not having received an illegal order, he preemptively and surreptitiously inserted himself in the chain of command where he didn't belong, which is a serious infraction in itself. He did so to quite literately save the world in the event it needed to be saved, with, I suspect, full awareness of consequences of his decision to his career, his liberty and, quite possibly, his life. This is what makes him a hero.

Having said the above, we must keep in mind that an excerpt from a book doesn't constitute evidence, and that there is likely much more to the story than we are aware of. I take back my very likely misguided judgement on how Milley should be punished or rewarded.


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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #100)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:06 PM

102. Milley is in the chain of command

He is literally the top military officer.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #102)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:47 PM

108. He has the commander in chief above him.

And his orders to subordinate officers were to put direct orders from commander in chief on hold and report to Milley instead.

On edit: Milley gave these order before he knew whether or not any orders from Trump would be illegal.

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #108)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:50 PM

110. The president doesn't issue orders directly to subordinate commanders

He does so through the chain of command.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #110)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:54 PM

111. Ordinarily that is the case.

But the president is not forbidden from giving orders to subordinate commanders. And I doubt that Trump would feel restricted by established protocols.

On edit: if Milley felt that all the orders from Trump would come through him, why bother to contact his subordinates surreptitiously?

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #111)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:56 PM

112. This is possible but subverts the military

And the subordinates have the right to refuse to follow an unlawful order, even if it's from the president.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #112)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:01 PM

115. Subordinates have the right to refuse an illegal order, but Milley has no right to stop them

from following the illegal orders. Apparently, Milley had no confidence of all of his subordinates refusing an illegal order, and he directed his subordinates to check with him regardless of their determination of illegality of an order.

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #115)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 09:13 AM

143. Subordinates have not just the right to disobey illegal orders

They have the duty to disobey them. Always remember Adolf Eichmann's defense at his trial, "I was just following orders". Eichmann knew full well what what those orders meant -- among other things, he took the minutes at the Wannsee Conference. Remember also how that defense was rejected by the court and by essentially the whole world.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #143)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 07:37 PM

158. Right or duty, Milley has no right to demand circumvention of chain of command

It was his decision to do so, not his subordinates'.

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #158)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 07:34 AM

163. HE WANTED TO AVOID A POSSIBLE NUCLEAR WAR

THAT means he acted reasonably and properly. Why don't you want to admit this?

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #163)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 07:55 AM

164. He did. And he succeeded.

But in order to do so, he had to act improperly and violate military code of conduct, despite being reasonable. That was the price he had to pay. and he willingly paid it. His actions were justified, but a violation took place nevertheless.There is nothing to admit here: both his action, which was reasonable, and his infraction, which is improper, are a matter of record, and exist quite independent of my opinion, or yours.

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #164)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 11:08 AM

173. Did you ever hear about the Battle of Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars?

In 1801, the Danes were making noises about joining with Napoleon. This would have a disaster for the Brits, because (1) the Danish fleet was strong and well led (unlike the French fleet) and (2) Sweden was where the Royal Navy got timber for ship's masts and spars and also their source for turpentine (wooden ships need constant painting, and turpentine was the best available paint thinner). If the Danes had allied with the French, they could have closed off the Baltic to the British, since the fortress of Elsinore (the site of Shakespeare's Hamlet) was at the tip of the Jutland peninsula, and Sweden is actually visible from Elsinore in decent weather.

So the British Admiralty decided to make a preemptive strike against the Danish fleet anchored in Copenhagen. For some reason, their best admiral, Horatio Nelson, was made second in command, and overall command was given to Sir Hyde Parker. Parker had a decent record, but had spent the previous five years sitting behind a desk in Kingston, Jamaica.

Anyway, the British fleet assembled outside the harbor at Copenhagen, and Nelson led his squadron in. Parker got cold feet, and sent a signal to Nelson, "Break off the action". Nelson, who was blind in his left eye, supposedly said to his flag captain, Thomas Foley, "You know, Foley, I only have one eye — I have the right to be blind sometimes," and then, holding his telescope to his blind eye, said "I really do not see the signal!" While this story is probably apocryphal, Nelson did ignore the signal and whipped the Danish fleet.

In the aftermath, the Danes, having lost much of their fleet, promised to remain neutral. Then-baron Nelson was promoted in the peerage to viscount and given command of the Baltic fleet. Parker was recalled to England, and never held another command in the Royal Navy.

Incidentally, in the Second Battle of Cape St Vincent, then-captain Nelson disobeyed the RN's standing orders on tactics (known as the "Fighting Instructions" and split the French line of battle, which was decisive in the British victory. The admiral in command, Sir John Jervis, wrote that Nelson "contributed very much to the fortune of the day". Nelson was knighted after that battle.

So, sometimes disobeying orders is the right thing to do.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #173)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 12:36 PM

178. It was the right thing to do in Milley's case too.

I am not familiar with the British Navy's military code of conduct circa 1801, but I am pretty sure Milley is not bound by it. So your reference to the First battle of Cpenhagen is hardly relevant to his case. I appreciate your reference to the battle as an illustration of virtue in occasionally disobeying orders, but this is not the point of contention in this thread. It is clear that he did not disobey any order. It is also clear that he ordered his subordinates to preemptively and absent of clear and present danger, circumvent the chain of command (which, BTW, was itself an illegal order that his subordinates were free to disobey). There is no dispute here that Milley did the right thing. The only argument I have is what consequences he may face for his action. Note that I am not calling for his court martial, or dishonorable discharge, or a demotion (neither did Vindman, BTW). Milley knows that his order amounts to violation of military code of conduct. He is also, by all accounts, an honorable soldier. Were he to resign, he would disspel all doubts, especially among his detractors, of being entirely true to his honor. And then, I am proposing, he should be awarded, quite appropriately, the Congressional Medal of Honor, the highest military decoration of the land.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #102)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:28 PM

120. General Milley is not in the chain of command.

The Goldwater-Nichols DOD Reorganization Act of 1986 explicitly states that the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff may not exercise military command over "any of the armed forces".

The chain of command for a strategic attack is: President--->Secretary of Defense--->USSTRATCOM commander.

Etiquette and precedence may be that the Chairman and Joint Chiefs are consulted and/or informed, but that is not the law.

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Response to Beastly Boy (Reply #52)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:12 AM

138. That's the oath for enlisted personnel. Officers take a different oath.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:06 AM

67. Oh please.

There was no danger of nuclear war. No one says that. Trump gave no orders to do anything. Milley went out of the chain of command and told our enemy, China, we would not attack them and that if we did he would inform them in advance. That is unacceptable. Do you want the military telling our enemies what Biden is or is not going to do?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:57 AM

87. But Milley feared that Trump might start a war.

The Chinese were concerned as well. I see Trump being quite capable of starting a war because his delicate ego couldn't accept losing the election.

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Response to Fortinbras Armstrong (Reply #87)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:03 PM

90. That leads to anyone in the military going around the CIC.

Based on their "feelings" and "fears". And giving information to our number one military enemy, no less. If this stands then no one should complain when it happens to Biden or any other CIC in the future.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #67)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 07:11 PM

128. +1

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:02 PM

89. And there's precedent from the same fears when Nixon was president.

I believe that General Milley was simply being prudent. He never directly countermanded a civilian order because none was given, but he ensured that if Trump issued some crazy order to nuke Iran or China he would know about it and be in the discussion of how to respond.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:12 PM

118. X 1000

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 08:28 AM

165. Milley's oath was sworn to protect the US, not the military chain of command.

And he did protect it- against a crazed traitor.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #11)


Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:40 AM

14. The precedent was set

with Nixon.
Nixon was unhinged and in TFGs case, the system failed us.
He should have been removed years ago.

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Response to BidenRocks (Reply #14)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:58 AM

62. + agree.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:13 AM

41. why wouldnt this fall under- refusing an illegal order?

i'm not hearing anyone saying it, but an unprovoked attack at the word of 1 madman doesnt sound like a legal order to me.
he knew it was a possibility, so he made sure everyone knew what to do, and that he backed them.

i have no doubt that he was prepared to resign if it came to that.
but i dont think it's as legally groundless as is being assumed here.
not a lawyer, but...

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Response to mopinko (Reply #41)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:01 AM

63. What illegal order?

No order was given to dp anything. No one claims there was.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #63)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:37 PM

93. should 1 be issued.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:41 AM

59. No, Vindman gets a medal.

When the 'law' was written, no one dreamed of a Trump. Milley is a hero and did the right thing.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:23 AM

75. Miley quite possibly circumvented an unlawful POTUS order from being carried out.

Trump was not following the law on many of his decisions and orders but that didn't stop his lackeys from carrying them out.

And it doesn't sound like "control was taken away". It sounds more like preventing a maniac dictator from "pressing some buttons" on a delusional whim.

I think that military personnel need to know if orders for military strikes are coming from a mentally stable CIC or not. We could not rely on civilian leadership to step in because 1/2 of the civilian leadership was not going to rein in Trump under any circumstances what so ever.

IMO, Miley acted properly.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:53 AM

85. So the same for Major General Smedley Butler?

When he stopped a Fascist takeover in the '30s?

There is no circumstance when a general uses their own judgment of what is the best way to defend the country they have sworn to defend? I thought the mantra of "I was just following orders" was not an excuse anymore.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:36 PM

107. No, that would set a bad precedent. Miley did the right thing...Trump should have been out

either by impeachment or the 25th...he was batshit crazy...Milley stopped him cold from destroying our democracy with a fascist coup d'etat and from using Nukes against another nation...good for Miley. What do you do when a president manages to corrupt pretty much everyone so that all the safeguards fail? You do your best to honor the spirit of the constitution. Miley did that.

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Response to marble falls (Reply #4)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:56 PM

113. I agree. But all of this needs to be investigated, documented and safe guards put into place.

Restoring the rule of law is what the end game should be.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:35 AM

8. What Milley did was a "soft" military coup, and cannot go unchallenged

If it does, the next general who tires it might not have our best interests in mind.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:42 AM

16. Then there will be other military officials like Milley to stop them.

This is not a bad precedence, this is actually the contrary. My fear has always been that the military would obey crazy orders and allow the planet to blow up because of the whims of a crazy asshole who is willing to kill half, if not all, humanity to prevent being investigated because that was the only reason for the buffoon to try to stay in power. The faster the buffoon is put in jail the better the country and the World will be, he will become a bad memory.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #16)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:33 AM

55. Under normal circumstances Vindman's criticism may be legitimate.

The circumstances referred to in Woodward's book were so beyond normal that it would have been a dereliction of duty if Milley had not intervened imo.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:56 AM

31. In my most humble opinion Milley should explain himself to the Armed Services Committee

Sure, he catch some flack from the GQPers, but I'm sure he can take it.

There are a lot of unknown facts about what he knew and what he did, these need to be discovered before any knee jerk reactions.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #8)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:59 PM

98. I think that calling it a "soft coup" is stretching it quite a bit

We don't know exactly what happened in the situation. It seems to me that the top general reminding his subordinates about the process for releasing nuclear weapons and their ethical responsibilities in the process was more a preventative measure that a sensible leader would make under the circumstances.

Although the president does have the ultimate authority to authorize the use of nukes, we were not in a state of war with China or N. Korea or Iran or even Afghanistan. None of those countries were making credible threats of launching a nuclear attack on the United States. The president does not have the power of a unitary executive to de facto declare war by launching a first strike.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #98)


Response to Redleg (Reply #98)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:44 PM

121. Milley improperly inserted himself in the chain of command between prez and generals

He was not reminding “his subordinates”, as those generals do not report to him, they report to the president. Instead, If each of those generals had reminded their subordinates not to follow unlawful orders, and told Milley that would not launch an unlawful nuclear strike, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But, the way it was described in Woodward’s book, Milley’s actions were themselves unlawful, although don’t rise to the level of treason as described by Trump.

Even if necessary, He was effectively using extra-legal, unconstitutional means in neutering Trump as CIC.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #1)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:14 PM

103. Trump exceeded his authority and responsibility to the Constitution.

To block Trump, Gen. Milley, in emergency mode, exceeded his authority and responsibility to the Constitution.

Thank you, Gen. Milley. You acted correctly and made no grabs for military power to replace the Constitution.





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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:33 AM

2. Well okay. I certainly respect his opinion.

Milley has to be near retirement anyway and he did what he thought he should do. I get the whole thing but I’m glad that Milley did what he did.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:34 AM

5. Defend and uphold the constitution against all enemies: especially Trump.

Ty , General Milley

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Response to Tetrachloride (Reply #5)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:15 AM

43. Yeah, there is that. Here's the oath all military officers take and that Milley took when he was

sworn in as Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman in 2019:

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

Milley is a hero really. He was faithful to our Constitution first. He may have stepped outside the order of rank, but he bore allegiance to the Constitution in doing so.

I'm guessing he understands the point that Vindman made and will do what he believes is the honorable thing and resign. He himself said "We take an oath to the Constitution, and every soldier that is represented in this museum—every sailor, airman, marine, coastguard—each of us protects and defends that document, regardless of personal price." after TFG fired Mike Esper as Sec of Defense in early November (post-election).

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:35 AM

6. That is why you are a Lt Col.

And Milley is a four star general. Back off kid. Trump is fucking nuts and he saw it just like you did.

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Response to pwb (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:43 AM

17. Well put, thank you. Yes, Vindman, just be quiet, appreciate what was done.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #17)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:51 PM

95. But we want our military to think as Vindman does.

But we also want our highest military leaders like Milley to be able to assess a situation and take action, as Milley did.

It was trump, folks. And not just trump but a raging trump
That was a clear and present danger.

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Response to pwb (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:54 AM

27. If rank equaled "right"... you would still lose that argument

Trump was, after all, higher than a four-star general.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #27)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:52 PM

96. But he was also obviously unhinged.

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Response to Scrivener7 (Reply #96)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:21 PM

104. Unfortunately, "obviously unhinged" isn't an authority that he is delegated

There are people who are given the ability to act on that. The fact that they chose not to does not grant him special authority.

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Response to pwb (Reply #6)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:14 AM

71. Trump was the civilian authority behind the insurrection. Which part of that doesn't Vindman

understand

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Response to pwb (Reply #6)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 12:10 AM

172. THIS




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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:35 AM

7. Oh please...if Milley prevented a nuclear war, then he is a hero...this is out of line by Vindman

I am just puzzled, didn't Vindman do something similar? He did not have the power to prevent anything, but as a whistleblower he was able to help get the SOB impeached.

If you put both actions in a balance, saving the World seems to me the highest possible act of heroism anyone can accomplish. trump is a maniac, and if following orders from a maniac is a must for a military official without measuring the chaos that the order will bring to the country and the World then we are in trouble.

Milley has the duty to defend the country against foreign AND DOMESTIC enemies, trump is a domestic enemy.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #7)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:38 AM

12. Vindman blew the whistle and PUBLICLY testified- he did not use his authority to circumvent

The chain of command.

What Milley did may have seemed necessary under the circumstances, but was still a breach of the chain of command.

Biden should ask for Miley’s resignation, then award him the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:44 AM

20. Vindman did not have the authority to do anything besides what he did.

These are two different situations.

Vindman saw corruption, so he told the story, the buffoon got impeached.

Milley saw the destruction of the World, he prevented it.

Apples vs Oranges.

And no, Biden should not ask for his resignation to apiece republicans, he should give him the medal and allow this to be a lesson for all other military officials who can prevent World destruction in the future when another trump gets into power.

This is not science fiction, this was real, this could have become the end of humanity, trump's worst character flaw is that he has no understanding of consequences, he would have gladly destroyed the planet to prevent investigations against him that he knew were coming.

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Response to Escurumbele (Reply #20)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:54 AM

26. There was no order to destroy the world by TFG, only the potential

Milley made it clear he would not follow unlawful orders, but since he had no direct authority over the leaders of each branch of the military, what he did by directing them to check with him before executing any orders to launch nuclear strikes was unconstitutional and a breach of the chain of command. Some kind of precaution may have been necessary, but the form of action Milley took, while celebrated by those of us who detest TFG, was nevertheless wrong and if unpunished, sets precedent for the next JCOS to act unlawfully to support rather than derail, the next madman in the WH.

That’s the point a lot of folks seem to be missing - imagine if Mike Flynn had been the head of the JCOS…

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:46 AM

22. Vindman

Had no authority to circumvent! He blew the whistle after listening in on a conversation of which the other participants had an expectation of privacy!

Vindman, was assigned to the White House, and in a way he also breached his chain of command!

No one has clean hands here...including Vindman!!!

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #22)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:56 AM

29. Vindman did "also breach his chain of command"

But he did so in a way prescribed by law and to a co-equal civilian branch of government.

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Response to atreides1 (Reply #22)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:56 AM

30. Vindman was supposed to be on that call, he wasn't eavesdropping

Most calls between a president and a foreign leader have multiple people listening, translators, note takers, policy officials. Vindman was one of those policy officials.

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Response to Fiendish Thingy (Reply #12)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:17 AM

44. I like it! That would really screw with TFG's head in a serious way to boot!

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:36 AM

9. Milley should resign as soon as Trump is indicted for crimes.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:38 AM

10. If Dump was going to start a nuclear war, I would have been ok with a military coup to stop it.

It would have been needed for survival of the human race.

Period.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:39 AM

13. Sorry, Col. Vindman, but I strenuously disagree this time....

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:41 AM

15. IF it happened as stated

Similar books have had misstatements before so I have my doubts.

Not that I question it could/ would happen but that even anonymous sources would talk about it mere months after the fact. Especially when the president in question could possibly pull a Grover Cleveland.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:44 AM

19. Milley showed courage. He knew he would be asked to resign for breaking the rules.

But he went ahead and did the right thing from a moral standpoint.

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Response to Irish_Dem (Reply #19)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 11:32 AM

175. I think Milley would be shocked and even disappointed if there weren't consequences

He had to know what he was doing and went ahead and did it anyway, for the greater good.

No one wants his actions to become precedent. Put the shoe on the other foot: someone could easily pull the same stunt and pass info to Russia on Biden's actions. We have a commander in chief for a reason and there are generally better ways of expressing disapproval.

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Response to cadoman (Reply #175)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 11:37 AM

176. I agree with your points.

He was faced with no good choices, there were consequences for taking each path.
He made the choice to protect the country, not himself.

I am assuming that the GOP is already passing info to Russia about the Dems and Biden.
They have done this before.


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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:48 AM

23. Milley stepped in because the republican Senate failed.

Twice.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:57 AM

34. Everytime I hear twice impeached,

I think and twice acquitted. They (Senate QOP) failed us all.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:21 AM

49. Exactly -- failed their pledge to uphold the Constitution. Milley did exactly that.

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #23)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:15 AM

72. Bingo!!

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:49 AM

24. I Am Reminded Of This Quote

Well, Captain, you caused quite a stir. Half of EarthForce wants to give you a kiss on the cheek and the Medal of Honor. The other half wants you taken out and shot. As a politician you learn how to compromise. Which by all rights means I should give you the Medal of Honor, then have you shot.
--Babylon 5, "Rising Star"

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Response to smb (Reply #24)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:57 AM

35. I remember that episode

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:55 AM

28. If the book is true, this would bad:

“Gen. Li, you and I have known each other for now five years," Milley said. "If we’re going to attack, I’m going to call you ahead of time. It’s not going to be a surprise.

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Response to OneCrazyDiamond (Reply #28)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 10:04 AM

167. Yeah giving the Chinese a chance to nuke us 1st seems like a bad idea. nt

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #167)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 10:10 AM

168. Imagine being a grunt on that first wave.

Heading for an ambush your own general helped create. I hope it is not true.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:57 AM

32. Well, his 15 minutes of fame are over. Bye. n/t

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:57 AM

33. MSNBC's Morning Joe absolutely shreds GOP outrage over Milley: 'Are you stupid?'

Joe is right here. When you have an impaired POTUS, it is necessary for people to step up



"Of course, Republicans acting shocked, just absolutely shocked that phone calls would be made from generals and other people inside of an administration where a president was trying to overturn the results of a democratic election," Scarborough said. "These people are children. It might help them to actually read history books and understand that this has happened before. It has happened at times when presidents were not in the best shape, as Donald Trump was not in good shape, I would say for his entire presidency, but especially after Jan. 6."

"You can go back to October of 1973, during the Arab-Israeli war of 1973," he continued. "The war was in the fourth or fifth day, escalating towards possible nuclear war, and Henry Kissinger was fielding calls from 10 Downing Street. They wanted to speak with [Richard] Nixon, he was drunk, depressed, unable to speak, and Kissinger said no. For the next six, seven months, you had Kissinger, Alexander Haig and others from time to time calling our allies, calling our enemies and assuring them that everything was going to be okay, the United States wasn't going to act in a way that would start a world war."

"That's what leaders have to do from time to time," Scarborough added, "and there's nothing shocking and new about it."

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:02 AM

36. Vindman on Fox news

in 4...3...2....1



Enemies foreign and domestic.......

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:05 AM

37. I for one shall wait for much more information than an excerpt from a book.

Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
10h
I am told this is not true. There were 15 people on the video teleconference calls, including a representative of the State Dept and the read out and notes from Milley’s two calls with his Chinese counterpart were shared with the IC and the Interagency.

Clint Watts
@selectedwisdom
·
54m
I'm with
@JenGriffinFNC
on this one. There's lots of evidence that can be evaluated to find out what really happened.

Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
16h
Pentagon officials: Gen Milley did not try to insert himself in the chain of command regarding the launch of nuclear weapons, but he made sure everyone knew what their roles were and what they weren’t. They reviewed lawful launch procedures following Pelosi phone call.

Jennifer Griffin
@JenGriffinFNC
·
16h
I am told that Gen Milley had 2 routine calls with his Chinese counterpart and more than a dozen calls with NATO allies after Jan 6 to reassure them the US government was stable and to reassure China that the US did not plan a surprise attack, an effort to avoid misunderstanding.


Bradley P. Moss
@BradMossEsq
·
13m
Now that we know Milley was following instructions from Trump’s own SecDef, the calls had multiple agencies in attendance, and read outs were shared within the IC, I am sure Mollie will retract these remarks.

[Bradley Moss was responding to someone named Mollie]


Mark Hertling
@MarkHertling
· 16h
It’s amazing how many people suggesting Gen Milley resign before a) reading the details in the book b) not understanding nuke launch protocols c) not knowing how senior military leaders often talk to counterparts (friends & foes), and d) don’t understand the role of the CJCS.


Mark Hertling
@MarkHertling
·
21h
I’d suggest all journalist be careful when using words like “limit,” as that would be a dangerous precedent. From what I can tell from the book excerpts, Milley told staff & commanders to ensure they followed correct “process & procedures.” That’s different.
Quote Tweet

Kyle Griffin
@kylegriffin1
· 22h
Two days after Jan. 6, Trump's top military adviser took top-secret action to limit Trump from ordering a dangerous military strike or launching nuclear weapons, according to 'Peril.'

Milley 'was certain that Trump had gone into a serious mental decline.' https://cnn.com/2021/09/14/politics/woodward-book-trump-nuclear/index.

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Response to chowder66 (Reply #37)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 08:05 PM

130. Thank you

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Response to chia (Reply #130)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 08:40 PM

131. : )

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:08 AM

38. I can understand his point here! (depends on the WHOLESTORY) i guess.

Not sure how i feel about this. Depends on WHO else was involved i guess. IF it was just the General, then i wonder what would have happened IF something happened to the general, THEN we were attacked? Not being able to use our weapons could be VERY BAD just saying!

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:08 AM

39. The "civilian authority" that should have removed Trump had abdicated responsibility out of fear.

Fear, and a lack of principle.

Had Trump's Cabinet been even half as responsible as they should have been, they would have used the 25th Amendment to remove him.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:12 AM

40. Was there an actual order by Trump that Milley refused to obey?

 

As a military or civilian, I can promise anyone anything but if I never carryout what I promised what are the charges? Was there an order Milley refused to follow? Vindman would be correct had Trump given some order Milley refused to obey. But calling a national leader and promising something that he had no authority to carry out seems to me to be unethical but not legally binding.

If Milley resigns, he will do so as a national hero.

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Response to joetheman (Reply #40)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:40 AM

58. I'm afraid that you have it backwards

Was there an actual order from Trump to attack China? If there had been, Milley would be on much firmer ground to take action to avoid a nuclear war.

Just having a fear that your CIC had gone 'round the bend and might do something rash isn't close to a justification for contacting a foreign general like that. What if China decided to use the knowledge that we wouldn't respond to a provocative act to invade Taiwan?

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #58)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:43 PM

94. I don't disagree with you but I am asking about the legalities and if Millely is truly

 

guilty of "treason?"

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Response to joetheman (Reply #94)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:58 PM

114. I think it depends on how accurate the book is.

I wouldn't bet money on the story staying the same for long.

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Response to joetheman (Reply #94)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 11:51 AM

177. It's NOT Treason

China is an adversary, mostly economically, but not an enemy.
There are no active physical hostilities between the 2 countries.
One cannot aid & abet an enemy by talking with a counterpart from a country not a declared enemy. Technically, there's no enemy to aid & abet.
Second, there was no secret attempt to provide aid & comfort. There are notes of the call, taken by others in attendance.
Third, such contact between counterparts is routine. It's not even an out of the ordinary event, aside from the topic itself.
The "treason" thing is strictly a verbal hot button to stoke outrage. It's what the Rs do.
But, even if this was something that occurred under Obama or Biden, (it wouldn't because those 2 aren't unhinged morons), it wouldn't be treason.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:14 AM

42. Think of all the backchannel conversations by the GOP military and civilian against President Obama.

 

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:18 AM

45. ftr, my nephew

about whom i have bragged, told me he had worked w vindman, and didnt think much of him.
and specifically that he didnt understand how the chain of command works. not a recent comment.

nephew skews pretty right, but def not a trump fan.
take it for what it's worth.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:18 AM

46. Sounds to me that as head of JCOS he was doing his job as ordered.

Defending America from all enemies foreign & domestic. Plus he communicated to all branches that if they
received an order from TFG they should contact him, orders normally go through him and he hands them
down. TFG if he bypassed Milley should have raised red flags to everybody in the armed services. I don't
believe Milley had to tell the head of the branches to inform him if they received an order coming
through the back door, they would have done that automatically, he was just insuring the chain of command
was being used as designed. IMHO

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:19 AM

47. Chain of Command

 

...is no different than dogma. It needs to go. (edit on not = no)

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Response to toasty (Reply #47)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:30 PM

134. I disagree with the attacks on Gen. Milley but

how would any military be able to operate without a chain of command?

A military is necessarily a hierarchical, not democratic, organization. Commands must pass down a chain of command. There is no other option.

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #134)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 07:31 AM

141. Well then...

 

...there ya go! Idealistic, yes. Impossible, no.

Recent events in our history prove that humans have evolved into a defective species. A more sustainable existence (environmental and social) is long past due. Our very thinking has been warped by years of myth inversion.

Without it, we're done.

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Response to toasty (Reply #141)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 12:43 PM

150. I don't see the answer to my question.

If the military does not have a chain of command, who makes the decision to charge or retreat?

Is it put to a vote? If so, do the soldiers who vote to attack move forward while the others retreat?

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Response to TomSlick (Reply #150)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:32 AM

160. No

 

You don’t see the answer you wanted. My answer is, in fact, there.

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Response to toasty (Reply #160)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 12:21 PM

161. If it's there, I can't find it.

Are you saying we must reverse an evolution "into a defective species?" If so, how is that accomplished?

Can you explain what is meant by "myth inversion?" What myth has been inverted? If it is a myth, should it be un-inverted or simply abolished?

While we are reprogramming the species, how do we run a military? Or, is it your position that we do not need a military while we are improving the species?

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:20 AM

48. To put Gen. Milley's actions in perspective one

has to remember the lawlessness of the ruling family and those in the GOP that were so willing to betray their country in quest of perpetual power. That was the climate in which he had to operate. Instead of condemning the General we should be focused on preventing another dictatorship grab. How many of those in the GOP calling for resignation betrayed their sacred oath to the constitution?.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:21 AM

50. OK, just as soon as General Milley receives a Congressional Medal of Honor. (nt)

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:21 AM

51. Many on the left. . .

complain that those on the right just don't know when to STFU. It's not necessary to comment on every single damn thing.

Now, I don't know where Vindman stands on the political spectrum. His actions during TFG's administration were noble. He's intelligent, thoughtful, etc. But he really should just STFU on Milley's actions.

OK, Mr. Vindman. Let's say Milley did none of what he is now reported to have done. And then let's say Trump ordered a nuclear strike on China, or Iran, or North Korea in the waning days of his administration. Now what would you have Gen. Milley do?

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:27 AM

53. President Biden likely knew a lot, especially after Jan 1.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:30 AM

54. I"m sorry but as a retired naval officer, I say Vindman is wrong

As an officer you are hired to think not just follow orders blindly.

The Officer Training pipeline teaches this. Just following regulations is not the job of an officer. They train you, educate you and you can spend years in classes. All in an effort to provide you with the tools to make the best decisions at the time. Yes, even to make a decision Not to follow the chain of command. They don't educate you to blind obedience but to use your brain.

Vindman used his brain and education to report an impeachable offense. Milley used his brain to prevent Trump from blowing up the world. Both were good decisions. Each decision is unique and must be made with the current available evidence.

Blindly following orders or the chain of command is not what most officers do.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:40 AM

56. How often have we heard "The Constitution is not a suicide pact"?

While I agree that for appearance’s sake, and precedent, Milley should resign — he did absolutely the right thing here, and I’m glad someone was looking out for our lives and humanity as a whole.

Speaking of precedent, how about we never again elect a mad foreign agent to the highest office?

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:40 AM

57. Vindman is totally wrong, there was no 'precedent' so Milley had to plan.

When the rules of chain of command were written, no one could even dream of a Trump. No one though an American President could lose the popular vote, surround himself with family dolts, replace the senior command at intelligence and defense, call an election he lost rigged, and behave like a dictator.

Had they even dreamed this, they would have put in safeguards. Milley had no choice, do nothing and have a madman launch nukes to distract, declare lartial law, and destroy democracy.

Vindman could not be any more wrong. The chain of command rules need to be retired and redone to reflect modern times. not Milley.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:44 AM

60. Tell Vindman to piss up a rope.

I’d much rather know that someone in a position of real power and who fortunately possesses common sense was there to stop the idiot FG from bringing the world to an end.

Vindman, fuck you.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:45 AM

61. Miley's oath was to protect our Constitution

From all enemies, foreign and domestic

He did the right thing

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Response to UpInArms (Reply #61)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:09 AM

69. What if the next Repub President puts in a die hard Repub 4 star general as Chairman.

And that guy decides that a future Democratic President is a dire threat to our country and Constitution? The precedent for has now been set that the military can make its own plans for succession and ignore civilian orders.

An extreme, but plausible situation.

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #69)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:27 AM

78. I did not say that Milley should not face consequences

I merely stated that he did the right thing

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Response to UpInArms (Reply #61)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:52 AM

84. "Miley's oath was to protect our Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic" You nailed it!

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:02 AM

64. I think this situation falls under the heading of

extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary actions.

Any decision by TFG, before and especially after Jan. 6, could be considered extraordinary circumstances. Gen. Milley understood that and took extraordinary actions (according to the book). Letting a lunatic like TFG abuse power and the military for his personal aggrandizement and/or gain is untenable.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:02 AM

65. I disagree 100%

While I support what Vindman did, I cannot support him on this . . . and the fact that I outrank him by a few grades makes no difference.

Let me point out:

1. When Nixon was drinking all day; roaming the White House halls talking to Lincoln's ghost; and asking if he could declare martial law, GEN Al Haig -- Nixon's chief of staff -- called SECDEF Art Schlesinger. Schlesinger and CJCS GEN Brown issued a similar message to the Combatant Commands, telling them not to follow any White House orders regarding nukes or troop movements or attacks on any targets.

2. In the last days of the Trump reign of terror, EVERY LIVING FORMER SECDEF signed a letter to Trump's SECDEF (Esper?) warning him about this exact thing.

3. It is NORMAL for regional commanders to maintain contact with their counterparts, both allies, friends, and adversaries. WTF does Vindman think the DC-Mosco hotline is all about?

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Response to AverageOldGuy (Reply #65)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 06:05 PM

127. Thank you for the information!

I also note that the civilian firewalls had all failed-25th Amendment and two impeachments, he fired Esper AFTER he lost the election, then he loaded the DoD with lapdogs, he also issued that get out of Afghanistan by January 15 no matter what order. And if that didn't screw Biden bad enough, he also did not let State and Defense proceed with the transition. He corrupted everything he touched, Lt. Vindaman should be grateful someone else just did their duty-and their job.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:04 AM

66. It is trumpty dumpty who would have tried to circumvent the chain of command for nuclear strike.

Gen Milley did nothing wrong. He simply made sure that all who needed to be in the loop to approve a nuclear strike were on the same page about what the process/procedures were and what the chain of command was.



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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:06 AM

68. Gen. Mark Milley is an American hero

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Response to LetMyPeopleVote (Reply #68)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:15 AM

73. +++

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:10 AM

70. Not in this case Vindman. The civilian authority you speak of was behind the insurrection

Sorry but Vindman is an idiot

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:21 AM

74. Where's the confirmation that the book is right?

So far, people are reacting to what is said to be an excerpt from the book "Peril", as is their prerogative. As soon as there's a confirmation of Gen Milley's actions in total, then we can start hanging the banners or gathering the pitchforks and torches. I'm fine with investigating TFG and putting him on trial if a solid case can be made. The fact that he was president shouldn't immunize him from prosecution. But first, lets make sure we have all of our proverbial ducks in a row to make sure that a technicality springs TFG from the consequences of his bad behavior.

Even LTC Vindman, who was quoted said, "If this is true, Gen Milley must resign". We shouldn't let the tsunami of lies that emanated from the WH during TFG's term and our desire for payback divert our attention from determining what the truth is.

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Response to Postal Grunt (Reply #74)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:41 AM

80. Gen Milley first made sure established proceedures would be followed and

second that no "Illegal orders" would be followed. Milley WAS the chain of command for military orders and made damn sure it would NOT be subverted.

He talked to his counterpart General in China to reassure them.

He talked to the Speaker of the House of Representative and assured her that proper procedures would also be adhered to. (After and insurrection and assassination attempt were directed against her.) And after the "commander in chief" has exhibited INSANE behavior.

I do not see how he violated any chain of command issues in anything described so far. He was just the adult in the room doing his job.

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Response to mackdaddy (Reply #80)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:54 AM

86. "Milley WAS the chain of command for military orders..."

No, he wasn't. That's what the uproar is about.


(c) GRADE AND RANK.-The Chairman, while so serving, holds the grade of general or, in the case of an officer of the Navy, admiral and outranks all other officers of the armed forces. However, he may not exercise military command over the Joint Chiefs of Staff or any of the armed forces.


https://history.defense.gov/Portals/70/Documents/dod_reforms/Goldwater-NicholsDoDReordAct1986.pdf

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:24 AM

76. TFG Is Insane And The Cabinet Was Too Scared To Remove Him

Milley should be given the Medal of Freedom for protecting the planet from the madman.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:26 AM

77. Chain of command?


Thank you General Mark Milley for putting the safety of your fellow citizens and the country first. Because of you we have the luxury to be around
today second guessing your immediate action to stop another
madman in this world.

If history has taught us nothing,
then we will continue to add to the
Commerations resulting from the atrocities committed in the name of
Dictators.

You sir, are a true Patriot and if it costs you your job so be it. History will be
your redeeming grace. People will
know that you made the ultimate sacrifice for your country when others
chose to look the other way.




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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:36 AM

79. I agree that Milley may have been attempting to insert himself into the chain of command, but...

it was for a damned good reason.

Still, he needs to be held accountable, and we, as a country, need to review the line from a demented president, to his Secretary of Defense, to USSTRATCOM commander.

If, as we have seen, there is no fail-safe for preventing a mental case in the Oval Office, perhaps the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs needs to be able to step in and prevent that person from launching a nuclear attack.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:44 AM

81. I would rather that the general do something dubious

Then have us get into a nuclear war.

And if Milley had resigned at that point, can't you just see Trump shoving then General Flynn into that spot?

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:50 AM

82. If anyone should resign it's most of the Repugs in the Senate

for not doing their job during impeachment. Then others would not have had to break a rule to protect us from the worst president usurping the constitutution.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 11:58 AM

88. Jen Psaki discussed it briefly, in press conference:

'The President has confidence in Chair Milley.' ((My recollection.))

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Response to elleng (Reply #88)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:03 PM

124. "I have great confidence in Gen Milley"

They just played it on MSNBC the exact second I read your reply.

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Response to BigmanPigman (Reply #124)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:07 PM

125. Thanks; glad you caught it.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:03 PM

91. Gen Milley is smart

Smart enough to know what the reaction to his actions would be. Don't kid yourself that he didn't see far enough into the future to understand the consequences of his actions.

He was and is ready to lay down his life for America.

If he had done what Vindman did, stand up, speak up, at an earlier time he KNEW he, like Vindman would be labeled a traitor and REMOVED. Removed and replaced by a sycophant of tRUMP's (like so many others in that administration).

Imagine a tRUMP loyalist in place of General Milley.

Just sayin..

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 12:05 PM

92. Years of military activity after 9/11 have their effects

Even Vindman seems to forget that Congress has the power to declare war. Milley just wasn’t going to let Trump circumvent Congress, as he had throughout his time in office.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:05 PM

101. The president does not have the authority to de facto declare war by launching a first strike

The civilian authority to do so still lies with Congress. Although the president does have the ultimate authority to authorize the use of nukes, we were not in a state of war with China or N. Korea or Iran or even Afghanistan. None of those countries were making credible threats of launching a nuclear attack on the United States.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #101)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:28 PM

105. That's not true. The President CAN issue a first strike order

The Nuclear Posture Review in 2010 by the Obama Administration governs usage and explicitly allows for a First Strike.

"To help preserve deterrence and the assurance of allies and partners, the United States has
never adopted a “no first use” policy and, given the contemporary threat environment, such
a policy is not justified today. It remains the policy of the United States to retain some
ambiguity regarding the precise circumstances that might lead to a U.S. nuclear response."

https://media.defense.gov/2018/Feb/02/2001872886/-1/-1/1/2018-NUCLEAR-POSTURE-REVIEW-FINAL-REPORT.PDF

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #105)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:49 PM

109. That is a policy review

The Constitution grants the sole power to declare war to Congress. In the absence of a Congressional declaration and without the existence of a state of war with another country or a credible threat of nuclear, an order by the president to nuke that country, without cause, exceeds the legal authority of the president and is likely to be viewed as an unlawful order. It is true that in the past presidents have ordered military action without Congressional authority but a nuclear attack that is un-provoked seems to be quite a different kettle of fish.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #109)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:08 PM

116. He would never have to declare war.

Even the War Powers Resolution makes no such claim. All a President has to do is notify Congress within 48 hours of committing any military action. Unless approved by the Legislature, any conventional forces will have to be withdrawn within 60 days of the commencement of hostilities. The War Powers Resolution makes no mention of nuclear conflict.

The constitutionality of the War Powers Resolution has never been officially tested, and it's open to debate on if it would pass Constitutional muster.

For further reading, feel free to check out this paper from Georgetown Univ. (The President and Nuclear Weapons: Authorities, Limits, and
Process):
https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3237&context=facpub

One excerpt from the paper:
"Currently, neither domestic nor international law specifically addresses the authority to use nuclear weapons."
and:
"Currently, no statute limits or regulates the president’s authority to use nuclear weapons."

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Response to Calista241 (Reply #116)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 12:22 PM

148. It's not about the president's authority- it's about the lawfulness of launching unprovoked attack

against another country. There are international laws regarding the commitment of war crimes that would likely apply to an unprovoked nuclear attack on another country that resulted in mass death and casualties.

Launching an unprovoked attack might be within his authority but that does not make it a lawful act or a morale one. In my mind it would be another example of abuse of power.

The two Trump impeachments were about abuse of power. Trump may technically have been acting within his authority as president but the acts themselves were corrupt acts because they were not done in the interest of the nation.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #109)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:05 PM

136. That's incorrect - but also irrelevant to the current topic

Incorrect - remember that nuclear launch authority is primarily a deterrent. Congress recognized decades ago that a nuclear strike on the US would not leave time for Congress to act. There is no choice but for presidents to have that authority.

Irrelevant - none of that grants the Chairman a role above civilian leadership. If the president issued an illegal order he could refuse to obey it. He couldn’t proactively insert himself and also promise an international rival nation to add them to the notification chain.

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Response to FBaggins (Reply #136)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 12:35 PM

149. Neither incorrect or irrelevant

Having the authority doesn't confer "rightness" or "lawfulness" to an act. Congress twice impeached Trump for the abuse of power because he had corrupt intent and attempted and suborned corrupt acts.

The Chairman of the JCS would likely be the recipient of orders by the president authorizing nuclear attack. I see nothing wrong with Milley reminding the chain of command about the proper procedures they must follow. Remember that Trump had key appointees in the top civilian leadership positions at the Pentagon- they were not confirmed by the Senate and they were Trump loyalists. Milley likely recognized that they were going to be a problem so he dealt with them in the only way he could. Both the previous Defense Sec. and the CIA director were concerned about Trump's erratic behavior after losing the election and their concerns appear to be similar to those that Milley had.

I never said that Milley promised a rival nation that they would be notified of a nuclear attack and I don't believe Woodward's book states it in this way. According to reports, a transcript of Milley's call to his opposite in China is available, was given to the Trump White House, and was also over-heard by a number of people who were with Milley at the time.

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Response to Redleg (Reply #149)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 01:31 PM

153. Nope

Having the authority doesn't confer "rightness" or "lawfulness" to an act.

You're repeating a failed highschool civics understanding of military authority. There is no constitutional definition of what a "declaration of war" looks like. There is no magical formula that Congress must hold hands and chant "one two three four... we declare there is a war". If Congress delegates powers to the President regarding the use of military force, the constitutional requirement is satisfied. That didn’t happen suddenly with Trump - it happened many decades ago and Milley isn’t a Supreme Court justice who gets to evaluate the constitutionality of a president’s potential actions.

The Chairman of the JCS would likely be the recipient of orders by the president authorizing nuclear attack

Flat wrong. That hasn't been the case for about 35 years. The Chairman serves in an advisory role, but command authority flows from the president through the SecDef to the heads of the various combatant commands. The Joint Chiefs are not in executive/command positions.

Remember that Trump had key appointees in the top civilian leadership positions at the Pentagon- they were not confirmed by the Senate and they were Trump loyalists.

Milley's first call was last October. At that time, Mark Esper was SecDef and had been confirmed by a 90-8 vote a year earlier. The election had not yet been lost. Yet even were all of that wrong, it still wouldn't give Milley the authority to evaluate whether an acting SecDef could be cut out of the chain and replaced by someone who statutorily was not in it. Nor would it give him the authority to evaluate a president's sanity beyond his personal responsibility to ignore illegal orders. The 25th Amendment sets up a process for dealing with a crazy President. A cabinet's hypothetical failure to act on that authority does not give some senior military officer the ability to act.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:28 PM

106. I think you need to sit this one out, Lt. Col.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:09 PM

117. If instead of talking to Dan Quayle to find a Constitutional path to overthrowing an election.

Mike Pence had gathered the Cabinet and invoked the 25th Amendment, we would not be here. If the Republican Senate and Congress had heard and weighed testimony during both impeachments and did their Constitutional duty, we would not be here. Barry Goldwater did his Constitutional duty when he refused to cover for Nixon. Nixon may have been a criminal and a drunk, but he was a competent executive, still Goldwater's oath to the Constitution held the day.

Trump ratfucked Afghanistan after he lost the election; he barred State and Defense from starting the transition process. General Milley's oath was to protect this country from enemies, both foreign and domestic. There was an UNBELIEVABLE failure of people to uphold their oath of office to the Constitution. It should never have got this far, but it did. If General Milley had stood back and stood by, the fascist coup could have been completed. All Mango Mussolini had left to corrupt was DoD, and God knows he was working on it.

There was a lot of treason here. General Milley was not one of them.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 02:21 PM

119. President Biden will decide.

I believe that Gen Milley did the right thing.
He stood by his oath as he said he would.
He saw the danger that Trmp posed, and acted.
Gen Milley explained this on Veterans day Nov 12, 2020.




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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:12 PM

122. Milly did the right thing.


"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the _____ (Military Branch) of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."


Milly took action that he thought would do this. We are fortunate to have an Officer like Milly.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 04:35 PM

123. Milley served his country well.

If he has to retire it's not the end of the world, something he obviously cares about.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 05:23 PM

126. Very sorry to see this, from Retired Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman.

He's a smart guy, should recognize the threats from trmp (and anyone similar who follows,) and must recognize tne need for someone in Chief Milley's position to take similar action.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 07:31 PM

129. So what's the problem?

Trump never called for a nuclear strike so Milley speculating what he would have done is just that, speculation.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 08:54 PM

132. Lt. Col. Vindman makes a valid point. Milley had the right instincts, but he should have

resigned, and given the reasons for his resignation. That would have informed China that the US military was not going to attack China, and would have informed the American people of the danger Trump presented to the country and to the world. Revealing it later on a book is a cowardly, exploitative way to deal with the issue. He took the easy way out.

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Response to Martin68 (Reply #132)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 09:24 PM

133. No, there is nothing Miley did wrong. We almost lost our government because the "civillian

Authority” was behind the insurrection, and Congress people came very close to being casualties


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Response to Calista241 (Original post)


Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 10:09 PM

137. Yeah, but where would we be if he hadn't done what he did?

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 06:42 AM

139. Milley did not usurp power

What he did was to emphasize that there is a process, the process must be followed and he, as head of the JCS, is part of that process. He made sure everyone at the military table understood that.

Remember, Trump is very mercurial but persuadable. Making sure he runs through an unrushed process is probably the best way to gain time to talk him out of doing something. There are numerous instances of Trump being disuaded cited in the recent books about him.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 07:15 AM

140. How can people write that General Miley did the right thing or the wrong thing

when we don't know exactly what he did. Even after you read the book, remember it is just a book and I want to know the sources of the information. Vindman even tweeted "If this is true".

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 08:36 AM

142. Nazis: "We were just following the law."

 

...and we all know how that turned out.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 09:23 AM

144. When Vindman made that statement, he didn't know Milley HAD followed procedures.

Later it was learned Milley made the call with SecDef Esper’s approval. Staffers present, I understand, will so testify.

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #144)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 01:19 PM

152. Really? Interesting.

I support Milley on this but I'm not clear how it wasn't a violation of the normal chain of command.

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Response to LymphocyteLover (Reply #152)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 02:07 PM

169. Milley informed Esper, per standing policy.

Milley defends calls to Chinese as effort to avoid conflict

by Jonathan Lemire
Washington Post, September 15, 2021

WASHINGTON (AP) — The top U.S. military officer on Wednesday defended the phone calls he made to his Chinese counterpart in the turbulent final months of Donald Trump’s presidency, saying the conversations were intended to convey “reassurance” to the Chinese military and were in line with his responsibilities as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Snip…

In a written statement, Milley’s spokesman, Col. Dave Butler, said Milley acted within his authority as the most senior uniformed adviser to the president and to the secretary of defense.

Snip…

“His calls with the Chinese and others in October and January were in keeping with these duties and responsibilities conveying reassurance in order to maintain strategic stability,” Butler said. “All calls from the chairman to his counterparts, including those reported, are staffed, coordinated and communicated with the Department of Defense and the interagency.”

The Milley phone calls were described in excerpts from the forthcoming book “Peril” by Washington Post journalists Bob Woodward and Robert Costa. The book says Milley told Gen. Li Zuocheng of the People’s Liberation Army that he would warn his counterpart in the event of a U.S. attack.

Source: https://www.wsfa.com/2021/09/15/milley-defends-interactions-with-china-after-revelations-new-bob-woodward-book/

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #169)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 08:52 PM

179. I didn't think the China calls were the problem as much as interfering in the normal command

of nuclear weapon launching (supposedly).

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Response to LymphocyteLover (Reply #179)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 09:33 PM

181. Yeah. That has not been de-classified or leaked.

Bet it was done with Esper’s approval recently or with Mattis’ approval from the beginning.

The Intel, State, Defense and Justice communities suspected Trump was a Russian agent. Crazy, too. USAToday put it:

Trump's alienation of longtime allies in Europe and Asia are allowing Russia and China to impose themselves on other countries to the detriment of American security, Mattis said.

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #181)

Mon Sep 20, 2021, 10:39 AM

183. Yes, I'm not sure the real chain of commands for nukes is public

even though they like to say that the president has sole power, which makes no sense.

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Response to Kid Berwyn (Reply #144)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 02:30 PM

156. I didn't know that

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Response to sakabatou (Reply #156)

Sat Sep 18, 2021, 02:11 PM

170. Vindman must not have known Esper was informed, per policy.

Milley defends calls to Chinese as effort to avoid conflict

by Jonathan Lemire
Washington Post, September 15, 2021

WASHINGTON (AP) — The top U.S. military officer on Wednesday defended the phone calls he made to his Chinese counterpart in the turbulent final months of Donald Trump’s presidency, saying the conversations were intended to convey “reassurance” to the Chinese military and were in line with his responsibilities as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Snip…

In a written statement, Milley’s spokesman, Col. Dave Butler, said Milley acted within his authority as the most senior uniformed adviser to the president and to the secretary of defense.

Snip…

“His calls with the Chinese and others in October and January were in keeping with these duties and responsibilities conveying reassurance in order to maintain strategic stability,” Butler said. “All calls from the chairman to his counterparts, including those reported, are staffed, coordinated and communicated with the Department of Defense and the interagency.”

https://www.wsfa.com/2021/09/15/milley-defends-interactions-with-china-after-revelations-new-bob-woodward-book/

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 09:59 AM

145. That's actually what pardons were made for.

IF the good general did something that tended to undermine civilian control of the military (and all we have for proof is a pretty vague statement in a book by a couple of reporters), AND IF he is therefore in violation of some section of the UCMJ, THEN he needs to face a court martial, and if convicted, the sitting President can pardon him for doing good while technically doing bad. Actually, the Court could short-circuit that by giving him a thunderous "Well done" and acquitting him at the trial.

I disagree with LCOL Vindman in this: we should not talk about resigning until there is a legal judgement that Gen Milley has violated the UCMJ.

I am getting increasingly appalled, of late, of the trend towards forcing resignations due only to the judgement of the Court of Popular Opinion. It is as though an accusation instantly confers credibility, in a time when any jagoff who wants to can smear anybody anytime and pay no penalty. This is a demonstration that we as a people are losing faith in our justice system. If somebody is accused of something, then by god let his accusers prove it in the appropriate court of law or STFU.

-- Mal

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 10:08 AM

146. I'm with you on that

He should resign. He did break the rules.

He did so with the best intentions, and it was a probably good thing he did... but he should resign.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 10:52 AM

147. IMHO, Gen. Milley acted within the bounds of the PRP program as ordered by the D.O.D.

The Personnel Reliability Program (PRP) is a United States Department of Defense security, medical and psychological evaluation program, designed to permit only the most trustworthy individuals to have access to nuclear weapons (NPRP), chemical weapons (CPRP), and biological weapons (BPRP).

The program was first instituted for nuclear weapons during the Cold War; it was later extended to the realm of chemical and biological workers. Among its goals are, (Quoting from DOD Directive 5210.42)

The Department of Defense shall support the national security of the United States by maintaining an effective nuclear deterrent while protecting the public health, safety, and environment. For that reason, nuclear-weapons require special consideration because of their policy implications and military importance, their destructive power, and the political consequences of an accident or an unauthorized act. The safety, security, control, and effectiveness of nuclear weapons are of paramount importance to the security of the United States.
Nuclear weapons shall not be subject to loss, theft, sabotage, unauthorized use, unauthorized destruction, unauthorized disablement, jettison, or accidental damage.
Only those personnel who have demonstrated the highest degree of individual reliability for allegiance, trustworthiness, conduct, behavior, and responsibility shall be allowed to perform duties associated with nuclear weapons, and they shall be continuously evaluated for adherence to PRP standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personnel_Reliability_Program

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 01:03 PM

151. Disagree with Vindman here.

He did not defy orders. He acted within his authority to ensure a potentially disastrous confrontation would not happen without proper deliberation.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 02:07 PM

154. Much still to know, but we know Milley would have done it with full awareness

of the legalities and ethical issues involved and of all potential consequences to himself.

All along I hoped my faith that people at the top of the miitary would do what they had to to keep a president from going rogue was borne out. And in an extraordinary situation that should never have happened, it was.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 02:26 PM

155. Vindman is wrong

It is not a violation of Chain of Command for a soldier to refuse to execute an unlawful order. What Milley did was to prepare for this as he expected it at anytime. What would have been bad would be if he had actually interfered with execution of a lawful order.



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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 04:30 PM

157. Milley did good!

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Thu Sep 16, 2021, 08:03 PM

159. Extreme Threats call for Extreme Measures

No one thought anyone of TFG's "caliber" would be president.

And no one thought any human was that much of an Aole.

TFG pushed the envelope to extremes, so did Milley's actions.

I for one am glad Milley acted.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Fri Sep 17, 2021, 05:12 PM

162. I'm sure Milley didn't take this step lightly.

We have NO idea what that fat fuck could have done. Milley saw Trump’s instability up close on almost a daily basis.

He was acting in this country’s best interests. Maybe if more leaders did that, we wouldn’t find ourselves in these kinds of situations.

Trump would gladly blow things up if he doesn’t get his way; we should know by now how amoral and sociopathical he is.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 12:03 AM

171. Milley did the right thing



I doon't get Vindman on this.

He knows, better than anyone, that Trump is nuts.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 11:27 AM

174. I have to agree with Vindman

 

If the allegations are true, Milley should be publicly fired (although I'm ok with him being allowed to resign). There is a line you don't cross, and it needs to be very clear to other generals and generals-to-be.

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Response to Steelrolled (Reply #174)

Sun Sep 19, 2021, 09:12 PM

180. I think we learned from the concentration camps what happens

when no one steps in to cut off total power from a madman.

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Response to Calista241 (Original post)

Wed Sep 29, 2021, 05:23 PM

184. Revisiting this two weeks later and after the Generals' testimony before both House and Senate....

....committees, we learned that Milley did not "go rogue", he discussed it with the (acting) Secretary of Defense and others in authority before making his phone calls.

Lots of people who were upset with Milley when the news first came out weeks ago have now changed their opinions and are applauding Milley's actions before and during his calls.

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