Russia says it will take nothing less but NATO expansion ban

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP

By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV

MOSCOW (AP) — Russia maintained a tough posture Wednesday amid the tensions over its troop buildup near Ukraine, with a top diplomat warning that Moscow will accept nothing less but “watertight” U.S. guarantees precluding NATO’s expansion to Ukraine.

Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov, who led the Russian delegation at the security talks with the U.S. in Geneva last week, reaffirmed that Moscow has no intentions of invading Ukraine as the West fears, but said that receiving Western security guarantees is an imperative for Moscow.

The talks in Geneva and a related NATO-Russia meeting in Brussels last week were held as Russia has amassed an estimated 100,000 troops near Ukraine in what the West fears might herald an invasion.

Amid the soaring tensions, U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken visited Ukraine on Wednesday to reassure it of Western support in the face of what he called “relentless” Russian aggression. In Strasbourg, French President Emmanuel Macron urged the European Union to quickly draw up a new security plan containing proposals to help ease tensions with Russia.



In this photo taken from video provided by the Russian Defense Ministry Press Service, A Russian armored vehicle drives off a railway platform after arrival in Belarus, Wednesday, Jan. 19, 2022. In a move that further beefs up forces near Ukraine, Russia has sent an unspecified number of troops from the country's far east to its ally Belarus, which shares a border with Ukraine, for major war games next month. (Russian Defense Ministry Press Service via AP)


Read more: https://apnews.com/article/moscow-russia-europe-ukraine-belarus-6d9818ff922a2650de107734a7c3faf5

[DanieRains]

1. Boycott Russia Now No Gas No Oil Till They Pull Back

I know Europe gets their gas from them, so they will have to make do.

Better than a war with Putin holding them hostage every winter.

[onecaliberal]

44. 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

[OhioTim]

49. $$$$

Have the FBI grab Putin's billions in US banks and securities. That will get his attention.

[marie999]

55. As far as I can find he is not invested in the U.S.

[DanieRains]

2. Who's Idea Was It Anyway To Be Totally Dependent On Putin For Heat Anyway?

Putin knows he has every European by the balls. He isn't an idiot. The EU are idiots for thinking he won't blackmail them.

[cinematicdiversions]

8. The Germans particularly the anti nuke looneys

Rather burn natural gas and coal than fight global warming and be dependent on Russia to boot.

[maxsolomon]

57. "Anti-Nuke Loonies"?

Hokay, pro-Nuke "Loonie".

[cinematicdiversions]

65. Well closing Nuclear plants to burn coal instead?

What is this 1982?

[maxsolomon]

67. Opposing Nuclear Power doesn't make one a "Loony".

There's a very real example of the concerns regarding Nuclear Power right on the Ukraine-Belarus border - you've heard of it no doubt.

All Energy is fraught; even wind power.

[YP_Yooper]

43. Really?

that's like asking why Hawaii needs to import gas.

Russia has tremendous energy reserves right next to Europe through two pipelines, and Europe doesn't. Makes more sense to come to an economic agreement than to frack the hell out of the US, freeze the natural gas, ship it in big bubble boats across the Atlantic.

[Ghost Dog]

73. Yep. That alternative would expose Europe

to even more US blackmail too. Further African and maritime sources are/will be developed.

[LiberalLovinLug]

3. So........why not just rubber stamp Ukraine's membership in NATO?

Go the other way

Demand they leave, or Ukraine WILL join......IMMEDIATELY.

So sick of dealing with this a-hole. Trump with more power, more money and brains.

A leader so insecure he has to try and cheat in the Olympics he is hosting. Its an abomination that they get to compete at all in the Olympics.

[Calista241]

5. Do we want to be fighting another war? This time against a 1st world

Military with nuclear weapons? I don’t think that’s in anyone’s best interest.

[LiberalLovinLug]

19. So we roll over like we did with Crimea?

Watch them take Kiev on Tv?

If Western allies made an emergency agreement to accept Ukraine into NATO, what would Russia do?

You'd put it in their court. It would pull the rug out from under them. They'd have no options left. Leave or face the full power of NATO.

I'd gamble on that they'd leave.

Because gambling the other way, some paper agreement, is not at all any kind of assurance.

[marie999]

24. Right, let's start a nuclear war.

[marie999]

54. The Baltic states have a 1166-mile border with Belarus and Russia, and are members of NATO.

Ukraine has a 1956-mile border with Belarus and Russia. Ukraine is much more important. If Ukraine joins NATO that would mean that NATO would have a 3122-mile border with Belarus and Russia. Russia and Belarus will not put up with that.

[brer cat]

71. Back so soon?

Enjoy your stay.

[marie999]

56. I don't think DU appreciates you using your made-up names for DU members.

Only my Russian friends from the former Soviet Union are allowed to call me Comrade. Unfortunately, there are very few left.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

64. Peace for our time?

Where have I heard such talk before?

Oh right, Neville Chamberlain when he bowed down to Hitler and the Nazi's and the result was WWII.

Is that what you're proposing comrade?

[Calista241]

30. We have no capability to fight a war there, even if we wanted to.

Turkey controls access to the Black Sea, and probably wouldn’t let the US Navy through the canal for the purposes of military action. The canal is too easily blocked, and would present too inviting a target for Russia to ignore.

Without naval access, we’ll have to land troops and equipment thousands of miles away in FrAnce or Italy and take the rest of the trip by rail. Those rail lines and convoys would also present a stupidly easy target for Russia to attack. It would take years to move the military assets there that we’d need, and this is going to be over in the next 2 months.

We essentially cannot win any military conflict there, to even try would be foolhardy, and the last thing we’d want is Russia crowing about how they defeated the much vaunted US Military.

[YP_Yooper]

39. Wow, thank you! A voice of reason

[LiberalLovinLug]

78. We can't win even if we wanted to?

Wow. All this MIC spending. More than every other country combined (including Russia). What is that all for when you need it? And then add to that all the NATO military from western countries and allies, you still don't think we can defeat Putin's army?

I'm not advocating war, but damn.....why not save a lot of time and false hope then and just capitulate now? Let the tanks roll in!

The Russian army is all coalescing near the border. Seems like they are vulnerable there if the right tactical strke from above is made by air for starters.

I'm advocating not just NATO countries stand up to Russia. We need more countries to stand up to Russia's increasingly criminal behaviour around the world, in the cyber world too. Turkey must get on board too. You don't win against a bully by just shrugging your shoulders and saying you just have "no capacity to fight".

[marie999]

79. We can't attack them while they are still within their border. That would be an act of war.

[former9thward]

80. We "wanted" to win in Afghanistan.

And we lost after 20 years of trying. With all the MIC spending.

[IronLionZion]

4. Or else what? Putin cuts off their gas and invades Ukraine anyway

There's no reasoning with the unreasonable. Mobsters.

[YP_Yooper]

7. Exactly

before people ramble off on their idealistic crap, Europe needs to do things like have electricity and heat so they don't freeze to death.

As opposed to finding a reasonable solution like not having US nuclear weapons sitting literally right next to Russia? This is an issue of having NATO (ie the US) having our military in the Ukraine - that's it. Keep our military and coup people out of the Ukraine, and this goes away.

I mean, I'M SURE all these same people would be fine with having Russian missiles and military right there in Mexico and Canada, right?

[IronLionZion]

12. Or Cuba

there was some tension there back in the 60s

[YP_Yooper]

22. lol, yeah then there's that :)

[marie999]

26. This time there will be Russian missiles in Cuba and Venezuela.

[abqtommy]

20. To answer part of your reply there is this:

"U.S. Becomes the Largest LNG Exporter, Aids Europe Through Its Energy Crisis"
January 11, 2022

https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/international-issues/u-s-becomes-the-largest-lng-exporter-aids-europe-through-its-energy-crisis/

As for the rest, I don't think it matters where the missiles and bombers are. If anybody
pulls the trigger we're all done for. Where's Vlad gonna sell his LNG if he blows his
customers all to hell?

[YP_Yooper]

27. Where's Vlad gonna sell his LNG if he blows his customers all to hell?

Now there is where the crazy personality comes in

We can't sustain the LNG supply for long, though. This was just the bankers and corps playing the best deal. Many of these ships were heading East until this thing came up.

More natural gas cargoes are being diverted away from China to Europe, as traders spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to take advantage of a rare price premium before it disappears.

[link:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-05/gas-tankers-divert-from-china-to-europe-in-price-premium-race|

[marie999]

32. So many people here want a war. If Ukraine joins NATO, there will be a war.

[moondust]

37. Except the Baltics are NATO members

since 2004 and they are roughly the same distance as Ukraine is from Moscow. And they are in talks to increase NATO troops on their soil. Thus weakening the proximity argument.

I don't know what Putin wants badly enough to risk possibly a lot of Russian troops. Is he afraid a Ukraine beefed up by NATO could grab and hold Crimea? Is this all just "Strongman Theater" for him?

[YP_Yooper]

38. Just a few guesses off the cuff

1) the Ukraine is the bread basket of the region, rich with agriculture = food
2) the Ukraine is the only warm-water sea port for Russia = international trade and military access
3) the Ukraine passes the much needed energy to Europe = economy and income
4) it acts as a military buffer Russia was promised (and Russia has been invaded plenty over the years) = protect their country

It's the West that's trying to control those factors against Russia, not the other way around

[moondust]

42. The West

seems to be coming to the aid of Eastern European NATO members at their request to help bolster their defenses from an aggressive strongman in Moscow who may be hungry for a return to the power and influence of the Soviet Union.

~
...in 2016 Russia exceeded Soviet Russia's grain production levels, and in that year became the world's largest exporter of wheat.[3] In the last years Russia has emerged as a big agricultural power again,[4][5] despite also facing various challenges.[5]
~
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Russia

[YP_Yooper]

45. Very much a factor too

but NATO is a military alliance first and foremost. A return to the USSR is simply impossible (ok, highly improbable )

Russia can kill the world, but doesn't have the resources to do some land-grab takeover as suggested in the news.

[Igel]

60. Too true.

Now, only if there were an indigenous population on that turf. Then perhaps they'd have a say.

Or perhaps they're just sad, little, weak-willed creatures that need a Big Brother to supervise them and mentor them? Like little children. Sad, little things on the outskirts of real civilization.

No. They have a say. They get the same right of self-determination, as, say, the Uighurs ... I guess.

[marie999]

62. It is not the distance from Moscow.

The 3 Baltic countries have a combined Russia-Belarus border of 1166 miles. Ukraine has a Russia-Belarus border of 1956 miles. Put them together and NATO has a combined border of 3122 miles with Russia-Belarus.

[Igel]

59. You assume that NATO put nuclear missiles in the Baltics.

They haven't.

Well, that's reality. Then there's Kanal 24 claims.

[marie999]

66. The U, S, has nuclear weapons in 5 NATO countries. What stops them from putting them in others?

[roamer65]

6. War is coming.

The winds of war are blowing.

[Evolve Dammit]

9. Sure feels that way. We will know soon. It's insanity

[roamer65]

10. My gut tells me Putin will go to the eastern banks of the Dnieper and stop there.

He wants the Eastern half of Ukraine, as that would connect Crimea to Russia directly.

[IronLionZion]

13. That's what Europe is hoping for

but there are no guarantees he'll stop there.

[SheltieLover]

50. Putin needs to stay in his own country . Stop bullying!

[Evolve Dammit]

52. will NATO and Europe allow it? And will US allow it? I can't see any other intervenors.

[Igel]

61. Yes.

It's a small price to pay for security and peace.

Just like the Sudetenland, and then Cechy, were for peace decades ago. That deal paid truly huge dividends.

[Evolve Dammit]

77. I think Ukranians and those Americans of Ukranian dissent would strenuously disagree.

[marie999]

58. That would give him the buffer he wants with NATO.

That is what the U.S. and Russia did to Korea after WWII, Russia did not want Korea to be a democracy and the U.S. did not want Korea to be a communist country.

[paleotn]

18. Been blowing forever.

but rarely does fighting actually break out. How many times has Russia threatened its neighbors and the MSM breathlessly exclaimed WAR is IMMANENT?!!! Lots and lots of times. And yet....

Turns out most of the time the real costs of war far outweigh the benefit. Russia has far more to lose than it would gain grabbing a bigger chunk of Ukraine. Keep the economic pressure on and Putin will probably fold. Probably that is.

[abqtommy]

11. Poor Vlad, he got so used to TFG wink and now he's hoping that Ukraine, Nato, the E.U.,

the U.K. and the U.S. will blink. If it's war he wants it looks like that's what he'll get.

[marie999]

28. So, you want a nuclear war where everyone dies.

[abqtommy]

35. Certainly not. But I am a student of history and appeasement never works. nt

[SheltieLover]

51. There is no satisfying pos putin. This is why we don't negotiate with terrorists

[Ghost Dog]

74. There does appear to have been mass mental programming

to that effect in the anglosphere, marie999, coupled with widespread deliberately formented ignorance ("dumbing down&quot . Is it just the "profit motive" behind all this, or something much more fundamentally evil?

[former9thward]

81. Trump was not around when Putin took Crimea.

Or when Putin separatists took Donetsk.

[NCjack]

14. Turn the financial screws on Putin. Vacuum all of the money out of

Russia -- so much that he can't make his military payroll. Make him afraid that the army will rebel and kick him out.

[paleotn]

15. No...and by the way, that nat. gas threat?

Not much of a sword of Damocles over Europe's head anymore. Oops.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-19/european-gas-retreats-as-norway-supply-recovers-after-outages?sref=hsxwm4Dj

[YP_Yooper]

36. China is trying to reduce their inventory, so it's temporary

Without the Ukraine and the new Nord Stream 2, Europe would literally freeze to death

[Orrex]

16. "We'll commit an act of open warfare unless you surrender preemptively."

[YP_Yooper]

47. I have both a Monty Python image and a Wimpy quote

I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today

[LudwigPastorius]

17. Hey, Putin!

[Submariner]

21. This KGB alumni needs the war footing to remain relevant

to diminish the notion among his 168 million poor slobs that he is a weak leader. Pathetic.

Russia has no Silicone Valley, no Airbus, no Boeing, no anything, except 11 time zones of fossil fuels, some flaming on the surface right now, that he hangs in front of the Europe like a carrot.

[YP_Yooper]

29. Well, and that little nuclear Armageddon thing too

I mean, they have the energy to keep Western Europe alive, so there's that too

[edhopper]

23. Sounds reasonable

Then he will stop being a bad actor.

[GB_RN]

25. Maybe I'm Wrong, But I Guess That Putin Will Be Walking Away With...

Last edited Thu Jan 20, 2022, 01:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Nothing but an empty plate, then. Absolutes don't work in negotiations.

Perhaps this is where the GOPQ got their negotiating tactics from? The KGB/GRU School of Hostage Taking & Interrogation Tactics...er, sorry that was the old name...the Vladimir Putin School of International Diplomacy.

[jgmiller]

31. Putin miscalculated and backed himself into a corner

The guy is a brilliant crime lord but he's not perfect. He made a calculation that Trump would get reelected and he could easily take the Ukraine so he started beating the drum at home. When Trump lost he was already pretty far down a road at home and he doubled down on looking tough with Biden figuring that we would be too distracted still to do anything. At the point where it became obvious that we weren't too distracted he had backed himself into a corner at home.

The Russian's value strength in their leaders and they have a complex that people are always out to get them. If he backs down now after having convinced his supporters that NATO wants to surround and take over Russia he will look weak which puts him in danger. This is why he's pushing this whole NATO thing now. I'm sure he could care less about NATO he wants the Ukraine because it's the breadbasket of Russia and he feels traditionally it belongs to Russia. Unfortunately for him it's not going as easy as he hoped so now he's going for plan B. Worry about getting the Ukraine later and look like he stopped NATO from doing something it wasn't going to do anyway.

He always plays the long game, he figures Biden will lose in 3 years and if it's Trump again then this becomes easy again. If on the other hand it's DeSantis or some other weak GOP member he'll be able to still take the Ukraine with very little trouble. His worst fear is that if the GOP wins in 2024 it's someone like Cheney, a traditional republican that doesn't trust Russia.

[BlueIdaho]

69. Putin is genuinely worried about NATO and so are his generals

This is not the first, and it won’t be the last time Putin freaks out over NATO. Unfortunately, his saber rattling hides some real economic frailties. Russia’s economy is smaller than California’s and thanks to the oligarchs, it’s almost exclusively based on gas and oil exports. That leaves Russia vulnerable to NATO nations economic sanctions. Add to that growing dissatisfaction with him at home and a covid pandemic and his hands are full.

Now is the time for the NATO partnership to hold firm and make Putin understand what a mess he’s in.

[Ghost Dog]

75. You are suggesting that the US/NATO are not

attempting to "surround and take over Russia"?

[marie999]

33. Does NATO have any idea where China sits on this?

[YP_Yooper]

48. Interesting right?

They're strangely quiet, though, since the US threatened cutting off Russia from Swift, and Russia and China are creating/opened their own exchange, it makes things interesting.

[electric_blue68]

53. No to war. And just because x many Ukrainians' aligned themselves w Russia didn't mean...

they wanted to be usurped by The Soviet Union!
Fuck that!

As a 2nd Gen half Ukrainian American I'll be in tears if Putin invades! AND we can't risk nuclear war.

I do hope we are sending them stuff that might help keep more Ukrainians alive.

I can tell you many Ukrainians hated being taken over by the Soviet Union.
Putin moved many Russians into Eastern Ukraine over the years to make it seem like there were more "Ukrainians" who support Russia.

NYET to Putin! 😬

[rockfordfile]

63. It's up to Ukraine.

Russia won't stop with Ukraine. Fascist governments never do.

[maxsolomon]

68. Only Ukraine has defied them.

Deposing their Russia-backed president in the Maidan Revolution really pissed Putin off. He spent a lot of money to put Viktor Yanukovych in power.

The nail that sticks up must be hammered down.

[Yandex]

76. I'm not in favor of marching NATO up to Russia's border n/t