Canada will look to China to sell its oil

[alp227]

In a phone conversation that came as little surprise, President Barack Obama called Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper Wednesday afternoon to explain why he had rejected the Keystone oil sands pipeline project.

In a statement released by Harper's office, the president is quoted as saying that the decision was not a decision based on the "merits of the project" and that TransCanada, the company looking to build the pipeline, could reapply for permission after a new route had been developed.

The statement went on to say that Prime Minister Harper "...expressed his profound disappointment with the news. He indicated to President Obama that he hoped that this project would continue given the significant contribution it would make to jobs and economic growth both in Canada and the United States of America."

But crucially, the statement also said that the prime minister reiterated to President Obama that Canada will continue to work to diversify its energy exports.

full: http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/18/world/americas/canada-keystone-oil/index.html

Canadian articles: "To Harper’s ‘profound disappointment,’ Obama rejects Keystone " (Globe & Mail http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/industry-news/energy-and-resources/to-harpers-profound-disappointment-obama-rejects-keystone/article2306625/); "Harper says pipeline debate should be left to Canadians" (CBC, http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/01/16/pol-harper-mansbridge-interview.html)

[GoCubsGo]

1. It's not like they were not going to do that in the first place.

It's why the pipeline was going to go to the Gulf of Mexico instead of through the British Columbia rainforest.

[lovuian]

2. Bingo

No news there

[The Traveler]

5. This may not be true or quite accurate

but one of my Canadian buddies has asserted that one of the reasons for laying the pipeline south through the US is because there is no way under existing Canadian law and regulation they lay the pipe through Canada. This is a good guy but not sure how knowledgeable about the legal details he really is. But I think at the very least it is likely to trigger a similar fight in Canada.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

9. Nonsense

[pschoeb]

11. The Trans Mountain pipeline is oversubscribed by 69% it needs expansion

to deliver more oil from Edmonton and the Mayors of the Cities in the Vancouver Bay are not happy with increases in oil tanker traffic.

[quakerboy]

24. Existing pipe

is a far cry from laying a new pipeline all the way across. And the way I hear it, they proposed that, and got a record number of attendees at hearings making public statements against it, as well as significant roadblocks on the part of the first nations.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

27. I'm not suprised there is a record number of attendees

Many of the JRP hearings for the Mackenzie Delta pipeline were held in the arctic.

But from a project risk perspective there aren't any insurmountable regulatory or environmental challenges facing the Enbridge project.

[RoccoR5955]

3. Since when did anyone actually believe it was going anywhere else?

They just wanted us to believe that the oil would stay in the US. Just like they say with the natural gas that they want to frack out of the ground here in NY.
All they care about is the money. The sooner people realize that, the better off they will be.
They just wanted it in the gulf to refine it, so that they could then export it to THE HIGHEST BIDDER!

[BeHereNow]

18. You ROCK!

Duh, Murikkkans actually think in some magical belief system
that all this activity with fracking and pipelines is meant to
help them be less dependent on ME sources of energy.

Hell Dich Cheney had this all laid out back when he
held his secret "Energy Task force Meetings."

Destroy the US eco system to sell to the highest bidder-
That would be China, and, at all costs, keep the public believing
all their fracking and tar sands pipelines were intended to benefit
America...ROTFLMAO!!!

Add to that, the meme that Obama is responsible for people losing
opportunity to work on pipelines that carry energy going to other countries.
SHEESH- the ignorance of the American people never ceases to amaze me.

Here sucker- work on this pipeline and around these toxic fracking chemicals
until we don't need you anymore- you'll wake up to find us and the gas and oil
LONG gone, while you are left with a irreversibly damaged water supply and unspeakable
physical damage to your body and your loved ones.

But HEY! You made $20.00 dollars an hour for six months- that should cover your medical
expenses from the poison we dropped in you ground water.

BHN

[JackRiddler]

4. A tragedy for Canada.

They have enormous hydroelectric reserves, they don't have to pollute their water and add more carbon to everyone's atmosphere.

[Amonester]

7. True that.

Harper 'works' for his buddies (Alberta's private oil companies, with CEOs and fiends who don't wanna pay taxes for hydro projects).

[DonCoquixote]

15. not to mention solar

Seriously, with all those flat plains and land masses, solar mirrors could be put up.

[JackRiddler]

21. Of course.

All alternatives are available. All it requires is imagination and will applied over time. In 30 years, all this hydrocarbon-nuclear nonsense could be rendered obsolete. But who will be profiting? Not those who currently hold the economic hegemony through hydrocarbon energy.

[minavasht]

19. In most places they run cars on gas

How do you drive a car with your hydroelectric electricity?
Are there any affordable battery vehicles?
How long until they become available?

[JackRiddler]

20. This is changing.

So what are you saying? Do you prefer gas-powered cars and no rail expansion, and use the shale oil until that runs out?

Or do you figure all's good long as you've got gas for your vehicle, and screw future generations.

What have future generations ever done for me?

[minavasht]

42. Yes

I'd love to have a cheap electric car.
Where do I get one now?
Anybody offering?
How about planned releases in the next 5 years?

[Devil_Fish]

44. see reply 43.

[JackRiddler]

45. And prithee how does this justify shale oil?

[RoccoR5955]

31. Don't forget that GM killed their electric car

Otherwise, we might be driving them now!

[minavasht]

41. According to the US Census Bureau

there are over 5 million companies in USA. Don't you think that if electric vehicles were so easy to make and so cheap to operate one or two of those companies would start making them? Hell, there are about 5000 brands of bread in my store, how difficult would be to make electric cars?

[JackRiddler]

46. A loaf of bread, an automobile, what's the difference?

[Devil_Fish]

43. Two words: Nissan Leaf

Fully Electric. 100 mile average range on a charge. price is $25k. Avalible right now at your local Nissan Dealer.

[minavasht]

50. They are listed at 33k here in Orlando

and that is not an affordable vehicle for me.
I drive a $3000 vehicle, that gets 25 miles per gallon.
With gas at $3.50/g I'll have to drive over 200 000 miles to make it even.
And with its range of 50-60 miles (you need the AC running here in Florida) it will take me forever to get there. Also, the price of the battery ($18000, 100 000 miles warranty) will keep second hand vehicles expensive.
It is a good start, but it needs years of additional development.

[Devil_Fish]

51. Perhaps a vehicle that cost $8K and gets better then 50mpg would interest you.

No batteries, Plenty of AC. I have one myself:

[minavasht]

55. I've toyed with the idea

But I've seen too many motorcycle crashes to risk it. Sometimes you walk out of it, but most times its a trip to the hospital.

If and when electric vehicles get in the 15-17K price range and get at least 200 miles per charge, gas will be obsolete.

[NickB79]

52. They're not developing the tar sands for domestic use. It's for export

And you can't export hydroelectric.

[JackRiddler]

54. So? Does that make it less suicidal? Less of a crime against posterity?

And you can export electricity, meaning you're exporting the energy sources producing for your grid, which can include hydroelectric. Not that this is relevant, but just to answer your comment.

[msongs]

6. seems to me that oil was NEVER going to stay in the USA, it was all for export out nt

[polly7]

8. What’s So Radical About Caring for the Earth and Opposing Enbridge's Northern Gateway Pipeline?

"The proposed Northern Gateway and Keystone XL pipeline projects and the massive, mostly foreign-controlled expansion of the tar sands are not about finding the best way to serve Canada’s national interests. If we truly wanted to create jobs, we would refine the oil in Canada and use it to reduce our reliance on imported oil, much of which comes from countries that government supporters say are “unethical”. If we really cared about using resources for the national interest, we would slow development in the tar sands, improve environmental standards, increase royalties and put some of the money away or use it to switch to cleaner energy, eliminate subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, and encourage Canadian companies to develop the resource."

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/01/18-8

[DonCoquixote]

14. bravo

I just hope your fellow Canadians agree with you.

[laundry_queen]

48. Most do.

Even here in Alberta, many are saying WTF? and agree with the sentiment that we should keep the oil HERE to refine, why do we keep shipping away all of our natural resources - what if WE need them someday? Even some far right relatives agree. Stephen Harper is not making many friends here with this, and especially NOT in BC.

[DonCoquixote]

49. Good to hear from an Alberta resident

Unfortunately, when Alvertans come to Florida, many of them act like they are hard right. I remember people getting culture shock when the Flames played the Lightning for the Stanley Cup, as thevisitors seemed very different from the French Canadiens and Ontario types we knew, for both good and bad. The talk we heard over Beer and Coffee was stuff like "No one really speaks French!" and "we hate the Toronto RED star" and "Ottawa just takes our money!" other stuff that seemed to indicate they would gladly saw off Ontario and all points East and let it float to France. The election of Harper led me to wonder if Canada caught the Right wing fever. So, it is good to see that someone up in "Texas North" is on the left side.

I also cannot imagine BC would be thrilled, especially as most have said the Olympics were NOT worth the cost, in money or ecological damage.

As far a resources, let's me honest, the corporations are trying to replaced the middle class in North America with the Chinese, as they are hungry, thirsty, greedy, and willing to do anything for money; they are the ideal that they have been trying to condition us into being. And when I say North America, i do mean North America, as even MEXICO is losing jobs to China. When I argue with my "conservative" relatives, and the Ron Paul cultists, I point out that if MEXICAN wages are too HIGH to prevent being Outsource3d to China,what will that mean when there is no longer a minum wage?

[hedgehog]

10. Did anyone ever get any idea why they were going to run it

over the aquafer in the first place? There had to be a sweetheart deal for someone there.

[DonCoquixote]

12. and the people whop said Obama would cave

are silent. As are those who say protest means nothing. As they will remain silent when the GOP uses this to bash him on the head come November.

Silence KILLS.

PS: Please, Canada, get rid of this fool. Show us you are NOT falling to the Dark Side.

[quakerboy]

26. I thought he would cave

I am very pleasantly surprised.

[juajen]

30. I, also, was afraid he would cave. I am thrilled that he did not, and I will remember this. NT

[julian09]

34. He is holding speaker Boehners' stock in five of these oil companies hostage

if Boehner doesn't behave this year he will not approve pipeline. After election he may approve in lame duck session.

[FedUp_Queer]

35. I thought he would cave (he has on so many other things)...

so I will be the first to say: "Good on ya, Barack." There's only one problem...as with so much of what he does, the statement is full of weasel words. Here is the statement. I've bolded certain items.

Earlier today, I received the Secretary of State’s recommendation on the pending application for the construction of the Keystone XL Pipeline. As the State Department made clear last month, the rushed and arbitrary deadline insisted on by Congressional Republicans prevented a full assessment of the pipeline’s impact, especially the health and safety of the American people, as well as our environment. As a result, the Secretary of State has recommended that the application be denied. And after reviewing the State Department’s report, I agree.

This announcement is not a judgment on the merits of the pipeline, but the arbitrary nature of a deadline that prevented the State Department from gathering the information necessary to approve the project and protect the American people. I’m disappointed that Republicans in Congress forced this decision, but it does not change my Administration’s commitment to American-made energy that creates jobs and reduces our dependence on oil. Under my Administration, domestic oil and natural gas production is up, while imports of foreign oil are down. In the months ahead, we will continue to look for new ways to partner with the oil and gas industry to increase our energy security –including the potential development of an oil pipeline from Cushing, Oklahoma to the Gulf of Mexico – even as we set higher efficiency standards for cars and trucks and invest in alternatives like biofuels and natural gas. And we will do so in a way that benefits American workers and businesses without risking the health and safety of the American people and the environment.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/01/18/statement-president-keystone-xl-pipeline

The problem is that, on the merits, it IS bad (why he won't say that is beyond me). It seems to me that this is only a matter of "killing it" because of the short deadline. The statement itself seems to imply that the pipeline is meritorious. After so much caving and vacillating, I SO want to believe it is dead. It appears to be dead, but there are also weasel words that lead me to wonder.

[TigerToMany]

13. Personally, I think any civilized country should not be doing any business with China.

Certainly not selling them oil. They're a huge polluter as it is and the oil not only goes into pollution but also fuels their military industrial complex which is built on slave labor, oppression of minorities, and corruption. Of course they get away with it because they have huge powerful lobbies in just about every country and are able to use them to throw their weight around.

[Rhiannon12866]

17. +1

Very good points.

[FedUp_Queer]

36. or Cuba or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan...

if the standard is civilized, with us, for that matter. Civilized nations don't torture or have the death penalty.

[AverageJoe90]

16. Fuck you, Stephen Harper.

Hope you Canadians can elect another Trudeau.......that guy was TOPS.

[FedUp_Queer]

37. Jack Leyton would have been a great PM...alas...let's hope there's another.

[AverageJoe90]

47. Leyton, too. Or at the very least, another Laurier would be nice to see. nt

[Tx4obama]

22. Canada is going to refile application

See here: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-01-19/keystone-xl-pipeline-seen-moving-ahead-on-alternative-route.html

[DeSwiss]

23. When China begins burning those tarsands from Canada.....

- ...they'll probably never notice the difference.

[geardaddy]

33. I lived in the PRC in 84-85

In Beijing. The coal smoke and dust was horrible. I would blow my nose and it would come out black some days.

Of course, it's not any better on the other side of the Taiwan Strait. I lived there for four years and the pollution there was just as horrendous, but it was all from gasoline engines.

[leveymg]

38. Sounds like Manhattan in the 1970s.

Black Snot, literally - and that wasn't just a Punk Band at the time.

[NickB79]

53. China's exporting their pollution to Canada

The tar sands would fit in perfectly with most of the industrial pollution they have.

[leveymg]

25. Converting (relatively) clean Alaska gas into carbon sludge for export to Chinese industrial plants.

Good thinking. Guess who got that ball rolling? Gov. Sarah "TCC pipeline" Palin with half a billion dollars taxpayer seed money for a natural gas pipeline south to Alberta, where liquid petroleum gas will be used to cook Husky (China Oil Co.) tar sand out of the ground.

You heard it here first: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/08/30/579990/-Palins-$500-million-Pipeline-to-Nowhere

[joshcryer]

28. Isn't the US the only country really equipped to refine this nasty stuff?

Sure, China and other countries can build refineries, but by the time they get around to doing that the application process will be complete and they'll be breaking ground on the pipeline (don't think Obama won't sign off on it within 5 years). Sounds like posturing from Canada, particularly to get American people to push for the pipeline and rush it through.

[DeathToTheOil]

29. Harper's mascara ran as he cried

What, you've never noticed his makeup?

[Bragi]

32. China won't know it's expensive and dirty oil

Naw, they're real dumb about trade and business for sure. Once they get the pipeline built, shrewd Canadians will be selling these dupes expensive high-carbon oil at top world prices forever. No way the Chinese would take advantage of Canada once the deal is locked in. No way.

[leveymg]

39. No surprise, at all. PRC encourages cigarette smoking as a form of stress and population control.

Attitudes there are still like those in the US in the 1950s. From Wiki:

One surgeon in Kunming (Yunnan province) described smoking as a phenomenon that is an integral part of Chinese medical culture and one that improves job performance:

Smoking is such a big part of being a doctor here. The director of our hospital smokes. The party-secretary smokes. The chair of my department smokes. And whenever I walk into the duty office, most of my colleagues are smoking. And to tell you the truth, with such a pressure-filled job, smoking is extremely helpful, at times soothing, at times energizing, at times helping me focus my attention when preparing for a complex surgery or facing a stack of paperwork 10:30 at night.[32]

[TigerToMany]

40. Sounds like one of those old Camel ads

Of that's the way I expect it China is mentally stuck in the 50's in some areas.

Mentally stuck in the bronze age in others.