US dismisses Polish plan to provide fighter jets to be sent to Ukraine

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: The Guardian

Poland has said it will hand over its MiG-29 fighter jets to the US, in a move which appeared to take Washington by surprise and was quickly dismissed by the Pentagon.
...
But the Pentagon appeared to reject the proposal, saying it was not “tenable”.

In a statement, the US Department of Defense said the prospect of the jets departing from the base “to fly into airspace that is contested with Russia over Ukraine raises serious concerns for the entire Nato alliance”.

“We will continue to consult with Poland and our other Nato allies about this issue and the difficult logistical challenges it presents, but we do not believe Poland’s proposal is a tenable one,” John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said.



Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/08/poland-mig-29-jets-us-ukraine

---

Back to the drawing board.

[PortTack]

1. F..K!!!

[blue-wave]

84. It sounds like the problem is delivery.

No one wants to take responsibility for delivering them. But the deal is still being worked on. I wouldn't count it out.

[Roy Rolling]

87. Public Statements

During wartime the U.S. government tells the world what it wants them to believe.

This Poland-MIG statement says “the U.S. is reluctant to get involved”.

Meanwhile, the jet transfer begins.

[Tomconroy]

2. Shame!

[OLDMDDEM]

3. Um

Why couldn't Ukraine pilots go to Germany, or Poland, to get the jets?

[Irish_Dem]

6. I just typed the same question. Why go to a USAF base?

[Abnredleg]

12. That's not the issue

The concern is that providing aircraft to Ukraine would be a major provocation. Anyway, Russia is relying on its ground forces, not its airforce, and MIG 29s would be of very little value since they are designed for air-to-air, not ground attack.

[wnylib]

69. Russia is bombing cities and Zelensky has requested

planes.

I am getting disgusted with the BS back and forth about planes.

Just get the damned things to Ukraine where they are badly needed.

Providing these planes is no more an escalation than the anti aircraft and anti tank weapons that we have provided.

One concern is flying them from a NATO nation to Ukraine.

So, fly them to the border and let Ukrainians "steal" them by towing them away.

[Abnredleg]

72. Zelensky doesn't get to decide when we go to war

Providing aircraft is a provocative act that will have very limited effect on the Russian offensive.

[wnylib]

74. Sorry, but I just don't believe either claim.

Providing the planes is not the same as having US or NATO pilots giving no fly zone coverage. The Polish Mig 29s are Russian made planes. Would they even be distinguishable from Russian planes in the air? Doesn't Ukraine already have some? So just give them a few more.

And they definitely would help Ukraine protect its cities and nuclear sites from being bombed.

[Abnredleg]

75. I think I'll go with the military experts on this /NT

[wnylib]

79. There is a thread on the main DU page about this,

but I could not get the link to post here.

In that thread, Ted Lieu and Adam Kinzinger share my view. They're not generals and I would normally go along with the generals, but not in this case. Of course, my opinion won't count with them. They will decide on their own. But I think they are making a mistake.

[Abnredleg]

80. I understand the frustration

But this is a ground war in which the Russian AF is playing an insignificant role. We are providing the Ukrainians with what they need, which is antitank weapons and actionable intelligence.

[Pluvious]

76. What would tip the balance are A-10 Warthogs

But they require significant support to deploy into a combat theater

[Abnredleg]

77. A-10s can't operate in contested airspace

against modern air defense systems. Only F35s and F22s can. The Ukraine AF is still flying but in a very constrained manner. There’s a very good reason that they haven’t attacked that 40km convoy we keep hearing about.

[Pluvious]

78. So what they REALLY need...

Are the Jewish Space Lasers !

[Abnredleg]

81. And sharks with lasers on their heads

To deal with the Russian Navy.

[bluewater]

4. wtf

[Irish_Dem]

5. Why don't the Ukrainian pilots go to Poland to get the Polish planes?

It was really surprising to read the MiGs would be taken to a USAF base.
This did not seem at all consistent with US policy and would be a clear escalation.

[bluewater]

8. Poland is in NATO too, so what's the difference?

[Irish_Dem]

14. It is seen as escalation by the US? And the Baltics are afraid of Putin too.

So Poland cannot put them there.

Putin is laughing his head off. The West is afraid of him.

[bluewater]

17. So we want Poland to take the hit for us?!?

huh?

[Irish_Dem]

25. It looks like the US/Germany don't want to make this a NATO gift?

They MiGs are Polish planes, and a gift from Poland.

So why take them to a USAF base in Germany?

I don't disagree with you however.

I am sick of everyone cowering.

[bluewater]

27. Poland is a NATO country.

The fiction that it would be Poland acting alone, which everyone knows isn't true since the US publicly stated they would swap F-16's to Poland in exchange, is something Poland got nervous about.

Obviously Poland is afraid to give the planes directly to Ukraine, but can you blame them?

[Irish_Dem]

33. Maybe we could put the planes on some random civilian barge and float them to Ukraine?

I am joking here.

Looks like the US is afraid to give the planes to Poland too. Germany doesn't want them to fly out of their country.

The Non NATO countries for sure don't want to take the risk.

I agree it was a NATO collaborative effort.

But everyone is too afraid of Putin to actually give the planes to the Ukraine.

I agree WTF.

[bluewater]

36. nod

[Evolve Dammit]

40. saying it was not "tenable". I suggest that Ukraine sovereignty and survival may be not "tenable."

So maybe the rest of the world should get their heads out of their asses and help them with arms??

[Irish_Dem]

48. Something is badly scaring NATO?

I think Putin put his nuclear subs on high alert, they are sitting near DC and in the English Channel pointed right at London, Paris, Berlin. Missiles sitting in the tube, ready to go.

No time for our antimissile systems to work. Putin has a good antimissile system over Moscow and he is in a secure bunker.

I understand NATO doesn't want to fight, but all this ridiculous maneuvering about the planes says they are quite worried.

[Evolve Dammit]

51. sounds right. I'm sure Ukraine regrets giving up their nukes. Would not have happened.

[Irish_Dem]

52. Yep. They gave up nukes and did not join NATO to appease Putin.

They hoped he would leave them alone and see them as no threat.

But the fact they are a democracy is a threat to Putin. And they would not give that up.

[AntiFascist]

61. My fantasy...

give the Kremlin 30 minutes to evacuate everyone from the premises, then drop a gravity bomb on it, destroying the pretty towers, and long-standing symbol of the Russian czars.

[Irish_Dem]

65. Oh the Russian onion domes are so striking, but I hear you.

It is said that Putin has a strong antimissile system over Moscow.
I think we would have to hit Moscow pretty hard.

[AntiFascist]

66. We suffered from 9/11... now its Russia's turn n/t

[Bev54]

28. This is the US Pentagon and they cannot come up with a fucking solution to this problem?

[Irish_Dem]

38. Putin really has us over a barrel it looks like.

Right the US military has an outrageous military budget and cannot figure this out.

I jokingly said upthread we should find a random old civilian barge and float the planes to Ukraine.

I agree, this is a WTF moment.

[AntiFascist]

62. Whatever happened with the Space Force, laser guided smart bombs, etc...

is this all just a joke, a way for the MIC to continue sucking funds?

[Irish_Dem]

67. Right, we spend $800 Billion a year for our military.

The strongest military in the world and Putin has us paralyzed.

Ha right, the MIC steals all the money and we really only have a few old planes from sitting in a random hanger.

Putin is no doubt very happy that his threats have worked.

[jmowreader]

7. They have a point

If a NATO member sends this kind of equipment to fight Russia, Mr. KGB is going to decide NATO is fighting him and begin attacking NATO countries in retaliation.

[Haggis 4 Breakfast]

63. Then almighty HELL FIRE will rain down on him.

If he thinks he can launch nukes at NATO allies, he is suicidal.

I am physically ill at all of this pussyfooting around. We WILL get drawn into this. It is only a matter of time. Ukraine is not the end of Putin's insatiable ego. He WANTS the Baltic states as well (Latvia, Lithuanian, Estonia) because they sit too close to Kaliningrad and Western ports. He will not stop with Ukraine. Did we learn NOTHING from Hitler ?

And as far as the "not tenable" comment, what is NOT tenable is two million Ukrainians fleeing their nation. Women and children being put on anything leaving the country, while any male over the age of 16 is staying to fight. Some parents have placed their children on transportation ALONE, with notes in their pockets with information about how to reach their families still in Ukraine.

Soon food and water and medical supplies will run out. Already there are thousands without electricity in the Ukrainian winter. Anyone remember Texas last year when Americans froze to death ? Putin is NOT honoring humanitarian corridors. His troops have shot people leaving. An entire family lay dead on the front page of the NYTimes.

Has our leadership forgotten 9/11 ? Well, EVERY DAY is 9/11 in Ukraine. Entire cities have been reduced to rubble. Russian troops are beating and killing people.

Now, Putin is bringing in SYRIANS to fight, because Russian troops do not want to kill Ukrainians. Even Belarus has withdrawn forces. Syrians will have no hesitation in killing Ukrainians. Especially if they are paid well.

Call the White House [phone]. Tell them that we cannot wait until there is NO UKRAINE. Biden is surrounded by an insular group of people more concerned with the midterms, oil prices and GOP criticisms than they are about Ukraine.

Anyone here play chess ? We MUST think ahead. America MUST respond now before the options dwindle.

PUTIN MUST BE STOPPED.

[Ray Bruns]

88. Only delaying the inevitable. After he conquers Ukraine, he will want the Baltic states.

and they are a part of NATO.

We need to get those planes to Ukraine and get a Lend Lease 2 act.

[sprinkleeninow]

9. I see what they're saying, but c'mon! WORK AROUND!

[Crowman2009]

10. I'd rather give the Ukraine some 30+ year old F-16s as opposed to some ancient soviet machinery.

As I recall, a rather old Turkish F-16 shot down a Russian fighter jet recently over Syria.

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. I don't think any Ukrainian pilots are trained for the F-16

While there are some small differences between Polish and Ukrainian Mig-29s, it's not much, and the idea was they'd be able to fly them in combat quickly. Training from scratch would take too long.

[Deminpenn]

31. Yes they are

US sold them F-16s awhile ago.

[bluewater]

34. Great, send Ukraine some more f-16's on "credit" then.

[Deminpenn]

37. Poland has F-16s, not Ukraine

Sorry to be unclear.

Ukraine is flying MiGs and Sukhois.

[cilla4progress]

11. Umm...

Pentagon "PR"?

[yaesu]

13. I'm thinking the 20 something Migs doesn't meet their risk/reward criteria. Dealing with

a suicidal nutjob with nukes takes special care.

[Sapient Donkey]

15. I guess that answers the question on how they would get there....

They don't.

I am curious what differentiates delivery of these planes vs delivery of ATGM and MANPADS. Is it just the ability to have one be more discrete than the other?

[bluewater]

32. "Is it just the ability to have one be more discrete than the other?"

I think yes, and the fact that Poland borders Ukraine, unlike the US and the UK when they send stingers and anti-tank weapons.

[Lonestarblue]

18. Why can't Ukrainian pilots go into Poland and fly the planes to Ukraine?

This looks like problems keep being invented instead of solutions. Alexander Vindman was on Nicole Wallace’s show this afternoon, and I just wanted to cheer him. He commented that the US has a paternalistic attitude toward Ukraine and assumes that can’t learn how to use some more sophisticated weapons. He made the point that they could be trained on them quickly to do the basics, which is to shoot down planes and destroy missile batteries, which is what they need now, and that they would learn the finer points as they used them more. He also mentioned bureaucracy as an issue. He mentioned at least six different weapons that would allow Ukraine to fight Russia’s air war, and none of them require boots on the ground for THE US or NATO.

The other interesting comment Vindman made was that the US and allies assumed that once Russia invaded Ukraine would fall fairly quickly and that it was not worth starting a war. They were proved wrong. If the US would provide the weapons he mentioned, some unmanned, to Ukraine he said they could win this war. This war needs to be won because there is no better time to defeat Putin and force his army back to Russia.

[bluewater]

22. Poland seems afraid to do that, apparently.

[James48]

60. They cant fly into a war zone from a NATO country.

That would be seen by Putin as an act of war. (He says).

So they cant fky directly out of Poland. Poland was offering “what if we give them to the US at Germany, and then somebody else comes and gets them and flies them elsewhere. “.

It was an incomplete proposal.

[Lonestarblue]

68. Fly the planes to a non-NATO country.

Moldova is not a member of NATO. Poland could fly the planes there for Ukrainian pilots to pick up unless Moldova refuses for fear of Putin. They probably think they’re next on his list of countries to acquire. Poland could “sell” the planes to a non-NATO country, perhaps Finland, which could then sell them to Ukraine, with the money to be a loan for now. There must be a way around this, though Putin has already claimed that the sanctions are an act of war. He’ll claim any help for Ukraine is an act of war against Russia, so just do it.

[James48]

73. IF Maldova wants to do it.

You gotta ask them first. It takes time to make arrangements and have discussions.

[AntiFascist]

82. Does Moldova have a suitable airfield? They are next on the list for Russian attacks n/t

[TomWilm]

85. 👍

[bucolic_frolic]

19. It didn't make much sense to me when I heard it this afternoon

Sounds like everyone is all for it but both parties don't want the responsibility

[bluewater]

23. I am afraid you nailed it.

[cilla4progress]

20. According to Ukraine Parliament member on Ari

Melber's show, Ukraine IS getting the Polish planes.

[questionseverything]

30. I am pretty sure the poles just said this to

Change the focus to why the United States isn’t providing planes to ukraine

Since obviously nothing had been agreed to ahead of time

[BigmanPigman]

21. Huh, I just read on DU the plan was a "go".

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142884336

[AntiFascist]

70. Unfortunately its was a "go" from Poland's point of view, not the US. n/t

[BigmanPigman]

71. We'd better fix this by tomorrow.

[mysteryowl]

24. Booooo!

Maybe they will do it through back channels and not in the media!

[Grasswire2]

26. Also here, earlier, w/ Ted Lieu's tweet

[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216458969|

[Cheezoholic]

29. Ahh, the art of misdirection lol

To all of the armchair generals out there, which I am occasionally guilty of also, lets not forget when it comes to military strategy, especially in times of conflict, the art of misdirection is one of the strongest tools one can utilize. We should remember, half of what we think we know is what they want us to know the other half of what we think we know we actually have no clue. Im a big player of strategy games (not shoot em up war games) and deception is an art form. We should remember this shits for real, it isn't call of duty or some crap. Just sayin'...

look something shiny

[AntiFascist]

43. I hope so. n/t

[cilla4progress]

44. What im

Sayin

[Deminpenn]

35. Not surprised

Poland doesn't want to do a direct sale to Ukraine. This plan put the US as the middle man, something clearly we did not want to be.

[bluewater]

39. But it's our plan, everyone knows that.

We publicly announced we would swap F-16's to Poland if they gave the Mig 29's to Ukraine.

Then what happened? Poland got cold feet then WE got cold feet too?

[Evolve Dammit]

42. Excellent question

[Deminpenn]

49. NATO wants to contain the war in

Ukraine. This plan just sort of crosses the line of NATO involvement.

Poland shares a fairly long border with Ukraine. Sending the planes directly from Poland doesn't risk violating airspace. But clearly Poland doesn't want to be the direct transfer agent. They could again share a border with Russia. You can understand their reluctance to be so directly involved.

[AntiFascist]

41. Unfortunately this reinforces the GQP depiction of Biden looking weak...

and turning his back on NATO responsibility.

[sinkingfeeling]

57. Could Biden over rule the Pentagon?

[AntiFascist]

58. We live in a democratic republic...

we elect leaders who can make the hard decisions for us. I can't even guess what intelligence that Biden has access to that is not being made public. I'm just pointing out how the Republicans may use this in future election propaganda.

[Polybius]

95. Sure he can

He is the Pentegon.

[Yorkie Mom]

45. What a clusterf*ck!

[EarthFirst]

46. Just leave them on the tarmac with the keys in them...

[List left]

47. Why is this being done in public?

It seems to me these discussions should be done behind closed doors.

[oldsoftie]

50. Dismantle them, move them across the border, reassemble them.

Doesn't even have to be very small parts

[honest.abe]

53. That's not good.

Maybe Poland will send them regardless.

[regnaD kciN]

54. They'll have to "give" them to some neutral country...

…maybe in north Africa, and send Ukrainian pilots to fly them back to their country.

(Or else Poland can just declare them “scrap” and dump them near the border, so that Ukrainian farmers can tow them away with tractors…)

[honest.abe]

56. Hope this works out.

[sinkingfeeling]

55. We have the most exensive military in the world and they're backing

down to Putin.

[DallasNE]

59. I Cringed When I Heard The Polish Proposal

It had to be a non-starter since it set up a direct confrontation between the US and Russia, giving Putin an excuse for launching his nukes. And it is not something that you just announce to the world. What was Poland thinking?

[AntiFascist]

64. Europe needs to take the lead, we should follow n/t

[flying_wahini]

83. Then write Ukraine in as a member of NATO and be done with it. Send everything you have.

Fight to the last man. Why do we spend all this money if we are unwilling to use them against a
provocative bully like Putin? What does it mean if the smallest kid on the playground
is getting the shit beat out of him by the biggest bully and we don’t want to overstep?

[AngryOldDem]

86. Let's all be honest here. We won't/can't help Ukraine.

Despite what we told them when they broke away.

That’s all that needs to be said.

[nowforever]

89. Why?

Not sure why every military operation is needed to be broadcast publicly. I imagine if WWII were happening today and we'd be publicly disclosing our plans for D-Day and how we have deciphered the secret German code. Shouldn't war planning and activites be top secret. You could have just had Ukrainian pilots fly the jets from Poland under the cover of darkness through a circuitous route without announcing any of the details. Those jets should have been there a month ago without any disclosure of how and when.

[Ray Bruns]

90. Joe Biden needs to get his generals and admirals in a room

and tell them to get it done.

[Polybius]

94. The order probably came from Biden

I trust him with this.

[Emile]

91. Could this be a smoke screen to make Russia think Ukraine is not getting them?

[bdamomma]

92. can someone explain to me

I thought the MIG's being used was given a "green light" so what the hell? So they are sitting in Germany, sorry for my ignorance but why didn't Poland just leave the MIG's in Poland for the Ukrainian pilots to get? Again, just asking.

[Marcuse]

93. I remember MiGs departing from sanctuary bases in China to engage US jets over Korea and Vietnam.

Rules change.