Israel strikes on Gaza kill 7, including senior militant

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP

By FARES AKRAM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — The Palestinian Health Ministry says Israeli airstrikes on Gaza have killed at least seven people, including a five-year-old girl, and wounded another 40.

The Islamic Jihad militant group says one of its Gaza commanders was among those killed.

Israel launched the airstrikes after days of tensions following the arrest of a senior Islamic Jihad member in the occupied West Bank.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. AP’s earlier story follows below.

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) — Israel unleashed a wave of airstrikes in Gaza on Friday, killing at least four people, including a senior militant, according to Palestinian officials. Israel said it was targeting the Islamic Jihad militant group amid days of heightened tensions following the arrest of a senior militant in the occupied West Bank earlier this week.



An Israeli soldier secures tanks in an area near the border with Gaza Strip, Friday, Aug. 5, 2022. Israel has closed roads near Gaza and sent in troop reinforcements as it braces for a possible revenge attack, following the arrest of a senior Palestinian militant in the occupied West Bank earlier this week. (AP Photo/Ariel Schalit)


Read more: https://apnews.com/article/israel-strikes-gaza-rising-tensions-4539de5f30c605b3423d3472351cd638

[nowforever]

1. So Israel attacks to prevent an attack they anticipated because of their prior actions

I understand what a preemptive defensive strike is, but this seems like an intentional provocation to initiate conflict. I guess a 500 year conflict is inevitable.

[Tetrachloride]

2. Headline fix: Israel kills 5 year old girl.

[childfreebychoice]

3. Our tax dollars at work. Nt

[BuddhaGirl]

6. Sadly, yes

Utterly shameful.

[Beastly Boy]

5. How'bout this headline fix: Israel kills senior militant hiding behind a five year old girl.

Just as creative as yours, no?

The fact is, and it is clear from the article: no Palestinian source, not even Islamic Jihad or other unnamed Palestinian officials, are confirming reports from the Palestinian Health Ministry, which is not exactly known for the accuracy of their reports. All of them, however, confirm the elimination of a senior militant.

[TiberiusB]

8. Not known for accuracy?

Really? Honestly, I can't think of any reports calling out the PHM for fabricating data. Do you have any examples?

[Beastly Boy]

9. That's right, not known for accuracy.

PHM in Gaza is an arm of HAMAS, a terrorist organization, used by HAMAS in any way they wish, and as such does not allow independent verification of the data they provide on behalf of HAMAS. I never accused PHM of fabricating data outright, I said they are not known for providing accurate data, and that's exactly what they are not known for. Literally. Do you have any sources where their data had been verified? Very unlikely. Because... HAMAS.

But I wouldn't exactly trust an organization that had been accused by the Palestinian Authority (not a terrorist organization) of stealing medical supplies:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-gaza-health-ministry-stole-medical-aid-during-summer-conflict/

[TiberiusB]

10. So, the short answer is "no"

The statement "I never accused PHM of fabricating data outright, I said they are not known for providing accurate data" is pure doublespeak.

You are heavily implying they are lying, and are known to lie, yet can't provide any examples. Does stealing supplies make the PHM corrupt? Sure, possibly. HAMAS are not on the side of the angels. It does not constitute evidence that they are fabricating casualty numbers. Again, not assuming PHM are saints, but considering it was Israel that just assassinated another journalist ( https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/12/infographic-the-journalists-killed-by-israeli-forces-since-2000 ), and it is Israel illegally occupying the West Bank, and Israel that has economically and militarily oppressed the Gaza strip for decades, and this was an air strike on an apartment building, virtually guaranteeing "collateral damage", I'd say there is ample evidence that Israel's hands are hardly clean.

But I know...HAMAS.

[Beastly Boy]

11. No to your loaded question. Yes to them not being known for accuracy.

Once again, you are misrepresenting what I said, and you are demanding an answer to the question you created without regard to the content of my post. A classic strawman fallacy. There is no implying on my part, heavily or not. "Not known for accuracy" is very different from "lying". And it appears that you are unable to find any source that verifies their numbers, thus proving my point.

You are trying too hard to win an argument, but you don't win arguments by making stuff up. Nor do you win arguments by deflecting. There is a reason why I didn't bring up a bucket full of grievances against HAMAS:that would take the focus away from the subject of the OP.

If you want to discuss the whole spectrum of grievances against Israel, that's a separate topic, and you are welcome to start your own thread. If you do, count on me to bring up a shitload of rants against HAMAS for comparison, but in the context of this thread, I am not biting.

[TiberiusB]

13. Not a strawman, not even close

Last edited Sat Aug 6, 2022, 06:00 PM - Edit history (3)

You outright questioned the reporting, stating as fact that they are "not know for their accuracy". When asked to provide an example, you don't even try to produce one instance, instead leaning on a report involving pilfered medical supplies. I took issue with the assertion that one party has a problematic history regarding their accuracy. It's hard not to see that as directly questioning their honesty. I would say that finding clean hands in these issues is a fool's errand, however, Israel is vastly more powerful, and as such, has a responsibility to act with restraint as the potential degree of harm inflicted is far greater.

You are not biting because you have no answer. You've taken a lot of time to play the strawman card rather than just do a tiny bit of Googling and post up something, anything, as proof. I am 100% open to that. It would actually be good to have more facts to help form a more complete picture of events in the region. So, AGAIN, your original accuracy claim might be valid, but without any evidence, it comes across as an attempt to shield Israel from criticism. Bring up all the rants against HAMAS you like, not one of them renders any of the points I made about Israel's aggression against the Palestinians untrue. This isn't a black and white debate. Both sides can be flawed to varying degrees, except Israel has an immensely powerful military and U.S. funding and support. HAMAS barely has a fraction of that capability. HAMAS is far from a hero in this story, but Israel, thanks to the economic siege on Gaza and the constant displacement of people on the West Bank thanks to ongoing illegal settlements, just pours fuel on the fire.

But this is a much larger debate, and one you are clearly not interested in having.

I'll just close with this, if you are going to contend that a key element of a story is potentially inaccurate, be prepared to offer evidence for that assertion to bolster your position. That's really all this is about.

[Beastly Boy]

14. Perhaps you should read the definition of the strawman argument first. Let me help you with that.

A short trip to Wikipedia:

A straw man (sometimes written as strawman) is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument was not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

The strawman you built is pretty obvious: "You are heavily implying they are lying, and are known to lie". I did not imply they are lying, and I did not imply that they are known to lie. I stated pretty explicitly that they are, and I quote, "not exactly known for the accuracy of their reports". Even a child unfamiliar with the concept of a strawman argument can tell the difference between one and the other. The former denotes fabrication, and the latter denotes concealment. It is clear as day that I implied the latter. And, lo and behold, you yourself inadvertently validated my proposition when you were unable to provide a single instance of their reports being verified for accuracy by any other source.

If you didn't intend to argue a strawman, you would have stopped right there and then. What you did instead was argue that I have no evidence that they are lying - a strawman you made up and then bravely took down. Can you see the similarities between what you did and the definition of a strawman argument? I do, plainly and clearly. Yet, you keep demanding proof of existence for something you falsely attributed to me, and you act indignant when you get none. Lots of good luck with that.

I also, plainly and clearly, explained why I will not allow you to divert, digress, or deflect into subjects that go beyond those I raised in my posts. And it's not because I have no answers. It's because you don't. And when you don't, it is tempting to divert to "a much larger debate", as you put it, when you keep losing a narrower one. However, if you insist on having this much larger debate, I made you an offer, and I quote: "you are welcome to start your own thread. If you do, count on me to bring up a shitload of rants against HAMAS for comparison, but in the context of this thread, I am not biting". You see, I am not biting not for the reason you made up (I have plenty of answers), but because I expect you to end one strawman argument before you begin the next one.

[TiberiusB]

15. That's a huge reply for someone not getting dragged in...

I still contend that playing a semantics game by questioning the "accuracy" of the PHM and then going off on a strawman tangent rather than just providing one example to support the accusation, pretty much makes my point.

[Beastly Boy]

16. Ok, if you insist.

Last edited Mon Aug 8, 2022, 10:52 PM - Edit history (1)

This, of course, has nothing to do with the validity of my previous post, or your failure to address it. A strawman is a strawman, and you can't escape it. Repeating your false accusations doesn't make them any more legitimate.

But consider the below a gratuitous diversion from the topic, so I may indulge your misguided and quite irrational insistence that I provide evidence for something you accused me of for reasons imagined and unexplained. Keep in mind that when one is determined to conceal, it is by definition an attempt to thwart any independent examination of the subject being concealed. This is the reason you couldn't find any sources that would independently verify the data represented by PHM.

However, I will humor you nevertheless. Here, the PHM is reported to have ascribed all casualties of the conflict to "Israeli bombardments" (https://imemc.org/article/health-ministry-56-palestinians-including-14-children-and-5-women-killed-by-israeli-missiles-in-gaza/) :

The Health Ministry in Gaza said the Israeli bombardment of the coastal region has led to the destruction of homes, residential towers, medical facilities, and other infrastructure, leading to the death of 56 Palestinians, including 14 children and five women, in addition to the injury of at least 335 Palestinians, some in a critical condition.

And here is the source that has access to similar data but is independent of what PHM makes available and how it chooses to do so. It disclaims the false PHM representation that all casualties are due to Israeli bombardments (https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-714165):

An IDF briefing about Operation Breaking Dawn revealed that one in five Islamic Jihad rockets fell in Gaza. That means 200 out of 1,100 rockets fired.
Updated: AUGUST 8, 2022 21:21
More innocent people in Gaza were killed by failed Islamic Jihad rockets than by Israeli airstrikes during Operation Breaking Dawn, according to a briefing by the commander of the IDF Spokesperson’s Unit Brig.-Gen. Ran Kochav...The Palestinians, however, reported a total of 35 deaths of whom 26 were innocent bystanders. Of the 26, 11 were killed in Israeli airstrikes, and 15 were killed by Islamic Jihad rockets that failed to clear Gaza.

Does the above amount to an outright lie by PHM? Blaming "Israeli bombardments" for the entirety of the casualties they reported certainly does. And, more to my point rather than yours, I would venture that you will never find out what prompted them to misrepresent the data the way they did and whether pressure from Palestinian top brass played a role in it.

But whatever the case may be, the above definitely illustrates absence of accuracy in presenting their data. You may call it a lie, or be more charitable, as I choose to do, and merely question PHM accuracy, whichever tickles your fancy more. Knock yourself out.

[OnlinePoker]

4. A "V" on the tank?

Isn't that what the Russians are using in Ukraine?

[EX500rider]

7. Could just mean 5th Company or Division or Corps nt

[hack89]

12. No. They are called chevrons and are common tactical markings on tanks

The US army uses them. The direction they are pointing for example, could identify what company the tank belongs to. It is an easy form of identification on the battlefield.