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Omaha Steve

(99,073 posts)
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 02:22 PM Sep 2022

NATO believes Baltic Sea gas leaks were sabotage

Source: AP

By JAN M. OLSEN

COPENHAGEN, Denmark (AP) — The NATO military alliance warned Thursday it would retaliate for any attacks on the critical infrastructure of its 30 member countries and joined other Western officials in citing sabotage as the likely cause of damage to two natural gas pipelines in the Baltic Sea.

The warning came as the Swedish coast guard confirmed a fourth leak on the pipelines off southern Sweden, which is in the process of joining NATO. The first leaks in the pipelines that extend from Russia to Germany were reported on Tuesday, prompting energy companies and European governments to beef up security.

The fear of further damage to Europe’s energy infrastructure has added pressure on natural gas prices, which had already been soaring. Russia, a major supplier to Europe, cut off deliveries earlier this year in retaliation for sanctions imposed after its invasion of Ukraine. That has caused widespread economic pain across the continent.

NATO ambassadors said in a statement that “any deliberate attack against allies’ critical infrastructure would be met with a united and determined response.” They refrained from saying who they thought was responsible, even though some allies like Poland, and many experts, have said they believe that Russia is responsible.



In this picture provided by Swedish Coast Guard, the gas leak in the Baltic Sea from Nord Stream photographed from the Coast Guard's aircraft on Wednesday, Sept. 27, 2022. A fourth leak on the Nord Stream pipelines has been reported off southern Sweden. Earlier, three leaks had been reported on the two underwater pipelines running from Russia to Germany. (Swedish Coast Guard via AP)


Read more: https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-sweden-baltic-sea-a03cc4816da6c1ddb401119ffd5a8f93?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=TopNews&utm_campaign=position_09

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NATO believes Baltic Sea gas leaks were sabotage (Original Post) Omaha Steve Sep 2022 OP
Tucker Carlson claims to think the USA did it. Of course, Russia TV loved that too. TheBlackAdder Sep 2022 #1
Lord Haw-Haw. Turbineguy Sep 2022 #2
a.k.a. Tuckyo Rose. Mister Ed Sep 2022 #5
Lord Haw-Haw wore a very plain necktie on his final day. LastDemocratInSC Sep 2022 #20
Just so. Turbineguy Sep 2022 #26
We had no motive to do that Warpy Sep 2022 #8
I just assumed Tucker was already called up in Russia's mobilization. nt Gore1FL Sep 2022 #14
I'd think you'd need a submarine to pull this off. maxsolomon Sep 2022 #3
Or a boat with a small unmanned underwater vehicle to just plant an explosive device. TheBlackAdder Sep 2022 #9
Submersible. Yep. maxsolomon Sep 2022 #12
An explosion would have been detected and triangulated by underwater listening devices. LastDemocratInSC Sep 2022 #21
Shallow waters manicdem Sep 2022 #17
K&R Bayard Sep 2022 #4
I've read you could send a pipe cleaning device The Unmitigated Gall Sep 2022 #6
Russia has motive means and opportunity IronLionZion Sep 2022 #7
Not russia manicdem Sep 2022 #10
It could be the country that blew up their own apartments in 1999 ck4829 Sep 2022 #11
Russia doesn't care about it's people manicdem Sep 2022 #18
Break down the motives, as you see it, of maxsolomon Sep 2022 #13
okay manicdem Sep 2022 #19
Thanks. maxsolomon Sep 2022 #23
All more likely than Russia doing it manicdem Sep 2022 #28
Just realized it was sarcasm manicdem Sep 2022 #22
Ukraine, I don't think they have the means. maxsolomon Sep 2022 #24
Not allies manicdem Sep 2022 #29
So Putin's threat to use nukes is a bluff Kaleva Sep 2022 #15
Nukes are a last resort for Russia manicdem Sep 2022 #25
Russia did it Crataegus Sep 2022 #16
I think it's Putin too TexasBushwhacker Sep 2022 #30
The Baltic nations and Poland really hated the Nordstream pipelines. Xolodno Sep 2022 #27

TheBlackAdder

(28,076 posts)
1. Tucker Carlson claims to think the USA did it. Of course, Russia TV loved that too.
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 02:31 PM
Sep 2022

.

A Tucker Carlson segment focused on the purported “sabotage” of the Nord Stream gas pipelines connecting Russia and Europe, which the Fox News anchor appeared to blame on the US.

Speaking following reports of leaks in the Nord Stream pipeline on Tuesday, Mr Carlson suggested that the Biden administration was behind the “sabotage” and act of “environmental terrorism” and warned of a Russian counter-response.

“Blow up the Nord Stream pipelines? OK, we’ve entered a new phase, one in which the United States is directly at war with the largest nuclear power in the world,” said the Fox News anchor.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/tucker-carlson-nord-stream-pipeline-russia-b2177405.html




The following C&L article goes into other stuff:
https://crooksandliars.com/2022/09/tucker-carlson-suggests-united-states

.

Warpy

(110,913 posts)
8. We had no motive to do that
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 03:24 PM
Sep 2022

not even as a false flag because Russia had no motive, either. Can't blackmail the world over a major pipeline if that pipeline gets trashed. Putin's gone bonkers, but not quite that bonkers.

The gas that's coming up isn't sabotage, either, it's the gas that remained in the pipeline after it was shut off. The pressure was too low to render it useful, just high enough that the remaining methane will escape through holes.

It's so addlepated, clumsy and self defeating that I can't imagine any government being behind it.

LastDemocratInSC

(3,625 posts)
21. An explosion would have been detected and triangulated by underwater listening devices.
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 05:48 PM
Sep 2022

An underwater craft, manned or not, could have created holes large enough to cause the damage.

manicdem

(386 posts)
17. Shallow waters
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 05:34 PM
Sep 2022

50 to 110 meters in depth. technical divers could easily reach it. Or cheap submersible drone.

The Unmitigated Gall

(3,720 posts)
6. I've read you could send a pipe cleaning device
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 02:47 PM
Sep 2022

Known as a “pig”, equipped with an explosive device, through the pipe and blow it up that way as well.

Need to get down there and look at this.

manicdem

(386 posts)
10. Not russia
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 03:39 PM
Sep 2022

Russia relies on gas sales to Europe which is a large percentage of their economy. So definitely not Russia. Not EU either since they really need the gas.

It has to be Ukraine, US, or one of the surrounding countries not reliant on Russian gas.

Water is shallow, 50 to 100M so divers or cheap drones could sabotage it.

manicdem

(386 posts)
18. Russia doesn't care about it's people
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 05:36 PM
Sep 2022

Russia cares about power and money, not people. So blowing up apartments is no problem for them. Giving up a lot of money and power through the pipeline is.

maxsolomon

(32,992 posts)
13. Break down the motives, as you see it, of
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 04:18 PM
Sep 2022

A. Ukraine
B. the US
C. Finland, the Baltics, Poland, etc.

manicdem

(386 posts)
19. okay
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 05:43 PM
Sep 2022

1. Ukraine - obvious one is they're at war with Russia. Europe needs Russia's gas, especially as we head toward winter. Europe is going to be pressured to reduce funding to Ukraine as a concession for Russian gas. The money Russia makes selling gas flowing through the pipeline funds Russias war efforts, and resupply in the future.

2. US - US is the leading nation helping Ukraine, also as a proxy war with Russia. Weakening Russia through the war and ravaging their economy keeps them at bay and reduces their world influence. It prevents future Russian wars with allies, prevents Russia aiding other countries like Syria, etc. Stopping Russia makes it easier on the US and the world.

3. Surrounding countries - They are threatened by future engagements with Russia. Russia was expanding their borders with Ukraine, and probably wanted to takeover the entire country. Russia would not stop there and continue with other bordering nations in the future. Those nations know it which is why many of them are aiding Ukraine and bolstering their military funding and trying to join NATO. Stopping the pipeline from aiding Russia's economy is in their best interest.

maxsolomon

(32,992 posts)
23. Thanks.
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 05:50 PM
Sep 2022

I think those are all pretty far-fetched. The pipelines will be repaired - sooner rather than later. That amount of Methane needs to be stopped quickly.

manicdem

(386 posts)
22. Just realized it was sarcasm
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 05:48 PM
Sep 2022

I took the bait.

There's no way you could be serious in asking what motive Ukraine had.

maxsolomon

(32,992 posts)
24. Ukraine, I don't think they have the means.
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 06:02 PM
Sep 2022

and I don't think they want to hurt their allies.

If I'm sarcastic I'll use

manicdem

(386 posts)
29. Not allies
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 08:24 PM
Sep 2022

Any country that cuts off aid to Ukraine and funds Russia is not an ally.

It doesn't take much to disable the pipeline. The relatively shallow waters allow for divers to reach it with common types of tech diver equipment. The pipeline should be relatively robust, but a few pounds of explosives or tools or other means could disable it without too much difficulty.

Kaleva

(36,147 posts)
15. So Putin's threat to use nukes is a bluff
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 04:59 PM
Sep 2022

As using nukes would result in repercussions that would destroy Russia's economy.

manicdem

(386 posts)
25. Nukes are a last resort for Russia
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 06:14 PM
Sep 2022

Right now, nukes are a bluff to prevent more aid and assistance from flowing into Ukraine. Or allies going to war with Russia. If this was any other country, like Syria, US would've been fighting in Ukraine already. The odds of Russia using nukes now is very remote, but the risk is still high because of the extreme consequences.

If Russia or Putin is threatened by Allies invading and taking over Russia , then there is a good possibility Russia would use nukes, even on their own soil. Again they don't care about their people, they care about money and power.

Crataegus

(58 posts)
16. Russia did it
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 05:14 PM
Sep 2022

I believe that the Nord Stream pipelines were sabotaged by Russia. Europe was on a path to move to a more carbon neutral stance. These pipelines were always ment to keep Europe dependant on Russian gas. They were always to be used as a weapon. Now that putin has made his move these pipelines are expendable. All the Nord Stream contracts will fail due to non deliverance. The severe penalties for non delivery of product are waived for 'Acts of God' or terrorism. Putin can punish Europe for backing Ukraine, sell his gas to China or India, and tear up his Euro contracts penalty free. Yes, Putin is a dick.

TexasBushwhacker

(20,044 posts)
30. I think it's Putin too
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 09:30 PM
Sep 2022

He ordered it and will blame Ukraine and/or the US. Perhaps he'll blame his next target to invade, like Latvia, Estonia or Lithuania

Xolodno

(6,341 posts)
27. The Baltic nations and Poland really hated the Nordstream pipelines.
Thu Sep 29, 2022, 07:33 PM
Sep 2022

It took possible pipelines in their own nations off the table and thus no transit fees.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/polish-eu-parliament-member-on-nord-stream-explosion:-thank

Former Polish minister and member of the European Parliament Radoslaw Sikorski had no reservations about who could have been responsible for Monday's Nord Stream pipeline explosion that shut off Germany from Russian gas.

On Tuesday, Sikorski tweeted "Thank you USA," along with a picture of the massive gas spill in the Baltic Sea. Off the shore of the Danish island of Bornholm, both pipelines sustained significant damage in what is now largely seen as a premeditated attack.

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