Marine accused of killing 24 Iraqis in Haditha makes plea deal
-- Tony Perry
Prosecutors and defense attorneys in the court-martial of Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, accused in the killing of 24 unarmed Iraqis in 2005, announced an agreement Monday to settle the case.
Wuterich will plead guilty to a single count of negligent dereliction of duty. Other charges were dropped. No announcement was made on what kind of discharge Wuterich would receive.
The maximum sentence is three months in the brig. That decision will be made by the judge.
---------
Wuterich, 31, was accused of manslaughter, assault and dereliction of duty for allegedly leading his squad on a bloody rampage on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005, after a roadside bomb killed one Marine and injured two in the Euphrates River town of Haditha.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/01/plea-bargain-reached-to-end-marine-trial-in-iraqi-killings.html
Previous thread with background on this case: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101429420
Wuterich is the final case out of 8 total charged in relation to the Haditha massacre.
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izquierdista
(11,689 posts)Sounds like leaving your guard post to catch some of the game on TV.
whathehell
(29,050 posts)
atreides1
(16,068 posts)...are former members of the United States Army, and the Army tends to take the killing of civilians much more seriously then the Marines do!
While admittedly there have been times when the US Army has dropped the ball, it has a much better record then the Marines currently have when it comes to justice for the victims.
This whole trial has been nothing more then a comedy to show that the Marines will do the right thing, and then give their boys a slap on the wrist...while winking at the judge as they leave the court room!!!
whathehell
(29,050 posts)about your assertion: Why does the army take these things seriously while the marines don't?
virgogal
(10,178 posts)are less interested in the killing of civilians than the army?
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)I am curious as to the nature of the considerations that led you these conclusions.
I am handicapped by my lack of battlefield experience; but your words suggest you have a vast range of knowledge in this sphere.
My interest is assured.
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)we are just protecting their country from their citizens
grntuscarora
(1,249 posts)That's it???
This sucks to high heaven.
I feel ill.
Gigibagigi
(21 posts)I am wondering why noone (American, Iraqi, European, Martian..) is doing anything about this.
24 people brutally murdered and that is it!
Not even one day in jail
lunasun
(21,646 posts)Bigmack
(8,020 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 24, 2012, 12:30 AM - Edit history (1)
A... "Easy... ya just don't lead 'em so far..."
Edited to add: deep, dark, 
intended
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Nor can many soldiers.
The inhumane nature of war, and the process of becoming "battle-hardened," results in soldiers dehumanizing the enemy. And they become less humane, human beings.
Insanity is the only other option.
mike_c
(36,279 posts)Good god, a slap on the wrist for murdering 24 brown people Iraqis. This is crazy.
Solly Mack
(90,762 posts)
barbtries
(28,787 posts)my daughter is a victim of homicide maybe that's why i cannot help but think of the victims. it sounds like mass murder to me. 3 months in the brig - 24 dead people - no that doesn't square.
fucking WAR 
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)All those Iraqis knew there was a bomb planted in the street. They let our guys get blown up.
Walt
a simple pattern
(608 posts)Got a corporation in your pocket?
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)Those old grannies and the kids... ? They knew...?
You know that for sure, eh..?
If they did know, maybe they shut up because the guys who planted it would come back and kill them. I know that puts our people at a disadvantage, but that's what happens in asymmetrical warfare.
That squad leader was responsible for the murder of innocents. He and his squad walk away from this clean... except in their own minds.
Look at the UCMJ... article 118 (murder) and 119 (manslaughter)...
He.. and they... are guilty as hell.
This country should be ashamed.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)The adults knew there was a bomb planted in the street. They let our guys get blown up.
Here is a picture of Lance Corporal Terrazza, who was killed that day:
He doesn't look much like a corporation either.
Walt
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)What a sadistic thug.
"Slowly the convoy went down River Road and then took a left onto Route Chestnut. Near the intersection of Route Chestnut and the road the Marines call Route Viper, an enormous explosion erupted beneath the convoy's last vehicle, a Humvee.
"I'm not seeing 4, I'm not seeing 4," yelled Lance Cpl. Justin L. Sharratt, a Fallouja veteran who was manning the gun turret in the first vehicle.
"Fourth vehicle is hit, T.J.'s dead," yelled Lance Cpl. Rene Rodriguez.
T.J. was Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, a popular Marine with a cheerful, blustery manner. He was from El Paso, but buddies called him T.J. in reference to rowdy times they had shared in Tijuana.
The blast killed him instantly. Parts of his torso were strewn 100 yards from the burning Humvee. His severed legs remained in the driver's seat."
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-49352.html
Planting a bomb like that had to be noticed by the locals.
Now, it is mitigation for the locals that the insurgents might threadten them over any help they gave to the Americans.
And it is mitigation for the Marines that they had to watch their friends blown up while the people they were trying to help stand by and say nothing.
There were no murder convictions in this affair.
Shame on you who rush to condemn the Marines who were trying to do their best on your behalf.
We never should have invaded Iraq, but was not their decision.
Walt
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)I am well read on the incident thank you. Shame on you for excusing cold blooded murder.
I am well enough read about this incident to know there were no murder convictions, that the Marines, having just been subjected to an explosion that killed one of their number and rained parts of a hummer over a large area, and were taking fire, still acted within the rules of engagement.
Walt
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)... the phrase "shoot first and ask questions later."
The ROE didn't include shooting granny in bed.
The ROE didn't include taking 5 men out and executing them... not in the heat of a firefight, but executing them.
The ROE didn't include shooting into rooms containing women and children... shooting that was not random, but well-aimed and center of body-mass shots.
Wuterich was a Staff NCO...in charge of seeing that the Marines under him followed the ROE, the UCMJ, the Geneva Conventions, and any other orders from his superiors.
He failed miserably. He failed to control his Marines, and in fact led them to commit war crimes.
In my war, we took innocent lives... by accident. Regrettable, and I feel them today. But we had NCOs who controlled the situation and made sure we followed orders.
This man is a disgrace to the Corps. He violated the prime code of honor of the Marine Corps... (From the Marine Corps Code of Honor) ... "And, above all, honor mandates that a Marine never sully the reputation of his Corps."
Clean out your headgear!
I was MOS 0331, and I was in the shit enough to know when somebody is talking thru their ass.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Well, I am MOS 0311 and 0302.
Sgt De La Cruz initially said he fired on the fleeing 5 men along with S/Sgt Wuterich. He changed his story later.
None of the things you allege could be proven at court-martial, apparently.
The ROE allowed clearing buildings from which you have been fired at. That applied here. You probably know MOUT training. One thing I recall about it was that if you didn't want to/couldn't go through a door, you could blow a hole in the wall in order to gain entry. In fact, that was BETTER thn going through the door because of the surprise/shock factor.
Now, exacty how are you supposed to know women and children are on the far side of the wall, applying MOUT techniques as taught?
S/Sgt Wuterich's team was -definitely- fired on from that house. It was a known insurent tactic to do exactly that so the Marines WOULD kill women and children.
When did you decide to think the worst you possibly could about your fellow Marines?
Walt
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)When you give up on the United States Marines, you sure as Hell give up on the United States.
Walt
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)`I believe that if we had and would keep our dirty, bloody, dollar soaked fingers out of the business of these (Third World) nations so full of depressed, exploited people, they will arrive at a solution of their own. And if unfortunately their revolution must be of the violent type because the `haves' refuse to share with the `have-nots' by any peaceful method, at least what they get will be their own, and not the American style, which they don’t want and above all don’t want crammed down their throats by Americans.' –
Gen. David Shoup, United States Marine Commandant...Medal of Honor recipient.... 2 Purple Hearts (I'm proud to say that Gen Shoup was my Commandant during the first part of my time in.)
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military.
- - - - - -
War is a racket. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.
“War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.
“I spent 33 years in the Marines. Most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism.”
Gen. Smedley Butler, USMC two time Medal of Honor recipient. 8 Purple Hearts
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Yes, General Shoup was a great man. He wrote an article in 1970, I believe for The Atlantic magazine called "The New American Militarism." I had a hard copy of it back in 1980 or so. Can't find it now. I googled it a while back. It doesn't seem to be available online.
There is no doubt the USA has gone astray. But it seems a bit much to blame lance corporals for that.
For those of you that don't know, then Colonel Shoup won the Medal of Honor at the battle of Tarawa in 1943. He was Commandant of the Marine Corps from 1964-68.
Walt
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"But it seems a bit much to blame lance corporals for that..."
I imagine we may find an analogy quite easily by invoking Gen. Pieper's actions at Honsfeld, Belgium in Dec of 1944.
Regardless, excising the symptom is part and parcel of curing the disease.
boppers
(16,588 posts)I find this blatantly offensive.
We made the US without you.
We can do it again.
We don't need the military to be a nation, but the military sure as hell needs a nation to not be killed as pirates and criminals.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)He murdered people. Do you get that? I really don't like being at a board with vicious thugs who don't look for anything like the Democratic Party and defend the actions of rabid animals who need to be taken out of society.
(If someone is inclined to alert on this, please do send me a PM and let me know first, so that I can edit and let this poster know what I really think about him. I want a pulled post to be worth it, I'm sure you understand.)
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)There is really not a whole lot to understand; "to be worth it," should be the least of your concerns.
Crabby Appleton
(5,231 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,294 posts)
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)I agree with your general sentiment that there's no good from any of this. Hopefully, the military will re-examine it's rules of engagement. 
chrisa
(4,524 posts)That's such a huge jump - Like trying to jump up the walls of the Grand Canyon.
There's no way you can justify this.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Nothing like" drag[ging] them out and execute them with a shot to the head" was even alleged.
Walt
boppers
(16,588 posts)"Shoot first, ask questions later"?
It's shorter than "drag them out and execute them with a shot to the head", but it's the same general message.... if you see any target, "engage" it.
got root
(425 posts)yeah, sure...
Arctic Dave
(13,812 posts)to the Iraqis with a book of what the Shawnee Indians used to do to other tribes.
Just my opinion.
polly7
(20,582 posts)That's pretty sad. I hope there's a hell.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57363990/marine-pleads-guilty-in-haditha-iraqi-killings/
Eight Marines were charged with killing the Iraqis, with Wuterich facing the possibility of life behind bars. In the end, seven Marines were acquitted or had charges dropped, and Wuterich pleaded to the single, minor charge."
I recall watching the "60 Minutes" report on Haditha from 2007. The Marines followed the rules of engagement.
That might explain why they were not convicted of murder.
Walt
alarimer
(16,245 posts)I swear to god I hate marines. Ignorant, brainwashed war criminals.
You are welcome to your opinion.
When I was thinking about joining the Marine Corps, there was an album one of the guys had, "The Sounds Of Parris Island."
On the album, during the battalion commander's inspection, the inspecting officer asks a recruit: "What is the motto of the Marine Corps?"
"Semper Fidelis, Sir."
"What does that mean?"
"Always Faithful, Sir."
"Faithful to what?"
"God, Country and Corps, Sir."
"In that order?"
"Yes Sir. In that order."
Walt
boppers
(16,588 posts)"God, Country and Corps, Sir."
Time to disband them, then, as that's some scary-ass shit.
A bunch of religious psychos running around with guns?
Yeah, Taliban and Al Queda.
Terrorists suck.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Semper Fidelis - to God, country and corps.
I thought that was pretty cool, and I stilll do.
Walt
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)check my posts above from Generals Shoup and Butler. I'm proud to be that kind of Marine.
All this god stuff in the Corps is new to me. My Corps was most definitely not religious. I think all the military has been infiltrated by the God-Squad.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Men, women, children and elderly. All unarmed and helpless. The court can preform all sorts of mental gymnastics and toss about excuses for those men but the world knows what happened. So do the perps.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Because their parents placed them there.
There is no question that the Marines were fired on from the first house that was cleared.
Were those Iraqis put in a situation they couldn't control? They couldn't keep the insurgents from firing on our guys. But that is not the Marines' fault either.
The Marines were also in a bad situation - placed there by George Bush, Dick Cheney and their neo-con buddies.
Walt
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)"There is no question that the Marines were fired on from the first house that was cleared." This has been admitted to be a lie from the perps themselves.
PS - Also agreed that Bush should not have sent them there.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)The first link I clicked on:
"William Kallop, who was a lieutenant in 2005 and is now a stockbroker in New York, said he believed insurgents inside the house were firing on Marines and thus the house could be deemed "hostile."
According to the rules of engagement, Wuterich and his Marines were justified in using any amount of firepower in assaulting a "hostile" structure without identifying whether the people inside were combatants, Kallop said."
They were fired on. The ROE allowed them to clear the building.
Now, I have never cleared a building in combat; I have done it in training.
If someone is firing at you FROM a building, you don't just go through the front door and say hello. The Marines have a little saying: "Enter every room with a boom." A grenade, a flash-bang grenade, a burst of gunfire, something. You just don't walk in.
Cpl. Dan Amaya
Sgt. Rafael Peralta
Both these Marines were killed in Iraq clearing buildings.
To say that S/Sgt Wuterich's men should have applied some other process in entering that building except to enter it with extreme violence is ludicrous.
What caused the death of all those people were the insurgents who fired on the Marines. They wanted to draw the Marines' fire so they could get the sympathy of ignorant, -safe- Americans like you.
Walt
got root
(425 posts)Funny how those pictures never circulate over here.
and as for calling someone 'ignorant', while being in full compliance, is classic, to say the least.
secondwind
(16,903 posts)we don't know all the facts here, and our troops have been stretched to their limits with multiple tours, etc.
We just don't know all the facts here. Am glad I saw this.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)insurgents were found after the shootings stopped. Women and children were shot in the head at close range. Unarmed. A wheel-chair bound elderly man was shot and killed. A 13 year old girl survived after her brother, shot and killed fell on her and she pretended to be dead. She is a witness, who was not hear in these trials.
How did those civilians, shot at close range, including children, unarmed, appear to be any threat to the solidiers? If you get close enough to a toddler to shoot him/her in the head, surely you are close enough to know who you are shooting?
'Iraqi blood is not cheap' was the comment from one of the city officials who has been following this trial, expressing the profound disappointment of the Iraqis at the outcome of this trial.
Having said all that, I still hold Bush and Cheney and their war-mongering cohorts for every wrongful death in that war. THEY are who should be on trial.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)A lot of stuff was alleged that apparently couldn't be proven at trial. For instance the LA Times reported that Sgt. De La Cruz said Staff Sergeant Wuterich shot those 5 defenseless men. His first story was that he fired on the fleeing men - along with Staff Sergeant Wuterich. The prosecutors threatened to have him deported.
That sure doesn't sound like they were trying to do a cover up.
A known insurgent tactic was to fire and then withdraw. Maybe they forced those people to be in that house - so the Marines WOULD kill them in their normal building clearing procedures.
Walt
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Sergeant Peralta:
Killed in action
On November 15, 2004, 25 year old Sgt. Peralta, deployed to Iraq as a scout team leader assigned to Company A, 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, along with his team was ordered to clear houses in the Operation Phantom Fury. Peralta was not assigned to enter the buildings, but chose to do so anyway.
Sergeant Peralta led his team through a series of house clearings before charging into the fourth house. He found two rooms empty on the ground floor. Peralta opened a third door and was hit multiple times with AK-47 fire, leaving him severely wounded. He dropped to the floor and moved aside in order to allow the Marines behind him to return fire.
The insurgents responded by throwing a grenade at the Marines. The two Marines with Sgt. Peralta tried to get out of the room but could not. Sgt. Peralta was still conscious on the floor and reports indicate that despite his wounds, he was able to reach for the grenade and pull it under his body absorbing the majority of the lethal blast and shrapnel which killed him instantly, but saved the lives of his fellow Marines.[4]
Corporal Amaya:
Texas Marine saved his unit from insurgent gunfire
By Shia Kapos
Special to the Tribune
Published July 20, 2004
A laid-back Texan who dreamed of being a comedian but planned to work as a chiropractor died saving fellow Marines from gunfire.
As squad leader, it was Cpl. Daniel R. Amaya's job to check the safety of his unit's surroundings before it entered enemy territory.
On April 11, as his squad headed into a building in Al Anbar province, Iraq, Amaya stepped into the doorway and confronted insurgent fighters.
"He called out for the rest of the unit to get back," said his mother, Kacey Carpenter. And then, she said, he shoved the Marine closest to him out of the way, saving his life. Amaya, 22, of Odessa, Texas, was killed in the ensuing firefight.
Amaya, who earned a Purple Heart and Bronze Star, was killed during his second tour in Iraq. He was assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force from Twentynine Palms, Calif.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)The court martial was a joke. There were no witnesses from the village, so many who saw what happened, no victims' family members present. This was more like a Grand Jury where only the prosecution presents a case.
It's a shame that the US feels it can send its military into other people's countries and then, when they commit war crimes, insist they not be held accountable according to the laws of that country. One good outcome of this was that the Iraqis refused to continue to give that immunity to foreigners and that is the main reason why we left Iraq.
I wonder what Americans would think if a foreign army invaded this country and did something like this, which would probably be inevitable given the nature of war? Would they be making excuses for the invaders?? Frankly I think the Iraqis whose family members were killed in this and other brutal attacks, have been very, very tolerant, far more so than we would. And then we claim to be the civilized nation.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)As a Marine myself I was intensely interested in this story from the start. And I was especially gratified to watch the '60 Minutes' segment where Staff Sergeant Wuterich was interviewed because it showed he and his Marines followed the Rules of Engagement.
That is what the court-martial showed also.
Walt
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and the US Corporate Media. There is plenty of evidence that shows that initially the military lied about the incident, not realizing perhaps how many witnesses there were. But if you want to accept a one-sided view of what happened, that is your choice. The Iraqis want justice for the victims, and this incident among many, many others, is the reason the US had to finally leave Iraq as they were not willing to remove immunity from Iraqi laws for their troops. I see no reason why, if we are going to continue to illegally invade other people's countries we have to anticipate that the troops will need to protected from prosecution for wrongful acts. If they follow the rules of war, they should not fear being subject to those laws.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)indiscriminately slaughter innocent civilians including women, old disabled people and children, infants and to lie when asked about it.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Upon listening to the prosecutions’ witnesses corroborating Wuterich, I may have discouraged the plea deal; particularly, if he demonstrated a tolerance for the stress that legal proceedings place on defendants.
In any case, the only charge that stuck, was telling the three Marines following him to "Shoot first and ask questions later." This (the prosecution alleged) was telling his men to kill anyone they found.
You are so uninformed and beyond unqualified, that you have no idea what you have revealed.
[font color="black" size="6" face=" Trebuchet MS "]Just Win Baby...![/font]
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,294 posts)Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz, a corporal at the time of the 2005 shooting, testified that he saw Wuterich shoot the five after they had been ordered out of a car near the site of a roadside bomb explosion that had just killed one Marine and injured two others. The five were not trying to escape, he said.
...
But Dela Cruz said the five Iraqis had not been not running. "They were just standing around," he said.
No weapons or incriminating documents were found on the five or in their car, according to testimony Tuesday by a Marine assigned to search the bodies and car.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-marine-trial-20120112,0,4682900.story
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)De La Cruz changed his story under pressure from prosecutors. He originially said he fired on the 5 fleeing men along with S/Sgt Wuterich.
Walt
cstanleytech
(26,273 posts)bathroommonkey76
(3,827 posts)This puke is facing 4 months for mass murder? The military are going to protect their own during wartime. He should be looking at life imprisonment!
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Because obviously military courts fail at finding justice. Should they not answer to us? Or is this some banana republic?
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)As you are aware, the fairness of redressing grievances relies on the legal maxim, "justice delayed is justice denied,." So may I offer an idea to infuse efficiency, for you to consider?
We have a means of rendering justice swiftly right here before us: The DU Jury. With just a few tweaks it will be, a justice process of remarkable rapidity. All the jury room will require, is five arm-chair recliners, five TVs, and five DU members, who can exhibit, your Solomon-like legal wisdom.
Should they not answer to us?
That's what they did in Haditha.
Eugene
(61,846 posts)Source: BBC
US marine in Haditha case 'should serve no time'
A US marine who admitted charges linked to the killing of 24 unarmed Iraqi civilians in 2005 should face no time in detention, a judge has recommended.
The decision by the judge at Camp Pendleton, California, must be approved by the commander of the Marine Corps Forces Central Command.
Sgt Frank Wuterich faced a maximum of three months after admitting dereliction of duty in a plea deal.
He was one of eight marines charged over the killings at Haditha.
[font size=1]-snip-[/font]
Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-16712488
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Good news.
Walt
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Yesterday, you watched in horror, as an enemy soldier used a child as a human shield.
These experiences will influence soldiers differently, but it would be irrational to think that it would not have a negative effect on the military bearing of some of them.
Empathy, sympathy, kindness and care; the traits that separated them from cold-blooded murderers, become subconsciously subordinated emotions. The psychological transition results in a solder more inclined to make cold-blooded decisions.
These young people are ordered off to fight an unconstitutional war and then, when the inevitable and predictable dehumanizing of the enemy results, the arm-chair generals express their surprised outrage, and call for their heads.
The process of identifying why people who are so far beyond unqualified to render judgment; pronounce judgment, becomes non-responsive, forcing me to re-boot my brain.
It remains incomprehensible to me.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)We are qualified to 'render judgement' because we are human beings. And we are told, this is all being done in our names. We therefore have an obligation to render judgement.
It is this attitude, that these soldiers and their commanding officers should never be held accountable for anything they do, that makes these kinds of massacres (and it was by far not the only one as leaked documents have demonstrated) possible.
There was no justice in this. There were no Iraqi witnesses present, no family members of the victims who saw what happened.
Remember, the military lied about this incident at first. But eventually had to admit the truth because there were so many witnesses.
They lied then and now they refuse to provide any justice.
The Iraqis were correct to an extent. They predicted that four of the accused would be sentenced to life, but the others 'would be let free'. It's worse than they thought. I imagine this news only confirms the opinion the world has of the US, no one will really be surprised, and that is sad.
They were looking for revenge and didn't care who they killed. George Bush and Dick Cheney and their gang of warmongers are ultimately responsible for all of this. But nothing will be done about it.
History, however, especially in other parts of the world, will not be kind to the US. And that is why WE, civilians, have an obligation to 'render judgement' whether you like it or not.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2012, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)
Question: If you were a US soldier, could you kill a human being?
Military bearing and discipline, is a state of order and obedience comprised within a command. A soldier's alertness, competence, confidence, and control, are essential fundamentals to maintaining unit discipline.
The rigorous training they experienced was for the purpose of instilling a level of discipline, to maintain their bearing when mayhem explodes on the battlefield. Unity and discipline become even more important as soldiers become acclimated to the engagement.
As the intensification of their experiences mount, some soldiers will be negatively influenced, because they are humans. As a result, the human element and its wide range of effects, has a far greater potential to trigger a breakdown in unity and discipline.
The experiences of engagement I mentioned are but two of an infinite number of possibilities. You and I, gain our "experiences" of engagement, from the TV.
You have exhibited the Solomon-like legal wisdom required. Please, report to the jury room in Post 61.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)all soldiers will simply kill when ordered to do so.
And no, some of us get our 'exepriences of engagement' from soldiers who have been there. Are you no aware that many of them have refused to follow illegal orders as is required of them? So from my experience speaking to soldiers who have done so, and the comparatively small number who engage in these crimes, it would seem that a majority of soldiers and their commanding officers are capable of refraining from engaging in crimes such as those committed at Haditha.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)begins to change, when the psychological processes of human beings, casts its wide range of effects,
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)can really answer that unless they are actually faced with the situation. But feeling as I do about killing human beings, I would never be a soldier. Not unless this country was under attack at which point it is possible even civilians might be faced with such a decision. If lives were being threatened, loved ones, mother, children eg, with a direct and imminent threat, it's likely that most people would do whatever they had to to defend themselves. But I cannot say for sure.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)was to urge you to consider what a soldier must face--kill another human being. For many soldiers, that consideration was the split second that killed him. I am not Rambozo, it would probably kill me too.
Dehumanizing the enemy--In an effort to pretend that we are civilized, that term is viewed as a negative connotation. "Humanitarian war" is another way we try fool ourselves, when we send our young people off to the battlefield. The arm-chair generals have empathy, sympathy, kindness and care as the bid them farewell.
But when these young people step onto the battlefield of reality, a humanitarian war, is no more.
Dehumanization--I will try to do this without offending anyone--during wars of the not so distant past, we dehumanized, we had Krauts, etc. as our enemies. Dehumanization is a psychological process whereby opponents view each other as less than human. If you don’t see a human being in your rifle's site, you do not hesitate to kill him.
I don't like to pretend--a fake humanitarian civilization is an insult to humanity.
The Northerner
(5,040 posts)Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)However, you would first have to consider the human element. And how the inhumane ruthlessness of war, affects human beings.
It would also equip you with a better understanding of "justice."
Gigibagigi
(21 posts)"And how the inhumane ruthlessness of war, affects human beings. "
This way you can easily condone everything.
What about condoning PolPot and the Killing Fields massacres?
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)And to understand, I consider...
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2012, 01:50 PM - Edit history (1)
[font color="black" size="4" face=" Comic Sans MS"]I Will Let You Discuss That With Him[/font]
VKaz
(12 posts)Same as the showtrial of Saddam Hussein. You can get more time in jail for looking at a cop the wrong way in some jurisdictions.
While i find these cases repulsive, i hate the hypocrisy these breeds even more than the actual crime. This way, America can pat itself on the back saying due process was done and the case was examined according to the law, and look arrogantly at nations who summarily execute people for similar crimes. This also is a way of washing their hands and saying "Oh see we don't approve this behavior, these are isolated incidents" when infact this case is probably one of THOUSANDS LIKE IT! We'll hear the truth in maybe 50 years when we're all too old to care and the generation coming up just dismisses it as "mistakes in the past that don't happen now".
My heart goes out to the brave men who fought for their country against this great and terrible invasion. They were up against nearly impossible odds but still they sacrificed their life. The same to the men in Afghanistan who have for the third time in their history drove out a great power, although at a great cost. The price of freedom is the willingness to sacrifice- a country with men willing to lay down their life for their sacred cause.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)The enormity of your heart is a wonder to behold.
I can only wonder why there is a hole in the place where one would expect to find the same consideration, for the young people of this country.
Edited to pick up the straw I left behind. An adept straw-seeker is inescapable, but I take responsibility for that one. Upon further review, I should have waited for the coffee to finish—that was an easy pick.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)That has been established. I can't help that ignorant high school students are brainwashed into joining the Marines. They are just stupid for doing so.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)It cannot be true "justice," if you did not render the verdict.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 28, 2012, 01:47 PM - Edit history (2)
[font color="black" size="4" face=" Comic Sans MS"] I Really Wasn’t Expecting Much Help
[/font]
sendero
(28,552 posts).... yeah, right.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)Defend Our Marines:
http://warchronicle.com/TheyAreNotKillers/DefendOurMarines.htm
Walt
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)"Citing doctors at Haditha’s hospital, The Washington Post reported, “Most of the shots … were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor.”
The 5.56mm bullets used by the US military have an initial muzzle velocity of 3,250 feet per SECOND. They are most likely to pass -through- a body at any reasonable range.
Your sources are not competent sources.
Walt
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)"Wuterich read a statement apologizing to the victims' families and said he never fired on or intended to harm innocent women and children. But he said his plea shouldn't be seen as a statement that he believes his squad dishonored their country.
"When my Marines and I cleared those houses that day, I responded to what I perceived as a threat, and my intention was to eliminate that threat in order to keep the rest of my Marines alive," he said. "So when I told my team to shoot first and ask questions later, the intent wasn't that they would shoot civilians, it was that they would not hesitate in the face of the enemy."
A great Marine and hero.
Walt
got root
(425 posts)
boppers
(16,588 posts)Shooting unarmed children must be horribly stressful?
I know several Marines.
I do not recognize any Marines in these men or their actions.
While they may have served in the name of such, they are abject failures in preserving the honor of Marines.
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)You have no idea what you are talking about.
Were -you- in the Military? In Combat Arms? When?
Walt
boppers
(16,588 posts)And yet, somehow, I managed to learn that executing unarmed civilians, whole families, including women and children, is a disgrace to their uniform, a disgrace to their service branch, and a disgrace to their country.
Are you trying to justify a war crime? Why?
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)What you allege didn't happen.
So you -wanted- to be in the Military. They just wouldn't take you. Right?
Walt
boppers
(16,588 posts)Not sure I ever *wanted* it, but I've thought about it.
My father was AF, mother grew up as a base brat... both were steadfastly against their children becoming military, based on their experiences.
As far as what I allege, I haven't seen enough evidence to stand behind it, or refute it. I have not seen evidence that all of the killed were armed, or that all of the killed were not armed. I have not seen evidence that all of the killed were male adults, or that none of the killed were women or children.
What is not contested is that they were all killed.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)the magnitude of heartlessness and unforgiving lack of consideration for other human beings that rules this corridor. I have pored over quite a few possibilities, in an effort to understand.
The "odds are they are Republicans" possibility, as irrational as it is...that the GOPbush initiated it...non-responsive. Re-boot...
I have no sound--no reliable way to understand.
A stab in the dark: If this is a subconscious philosophical decision, it is the same psychological transition that results in a "battle-hardened" soldier.
I am never comfortable with being faced with the proposition of hoping for the best--it leaves me with a hollow eeriness. But not accepting it, is not an option.
Zippydo77
(4 posts)Not a good way to show respect for life, nor the level of dicipline in the US military.
Murder is murder.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)got root
(425 posts)especially U.S.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)got root
(425 posts)thanks for helping to highlight the point 
BeGoodDoGood
(201 posts)What murder are you talking about?
Walt
cbrer
(1,831 posts)Are the legacy of an illegal war. Initiated by a lying President, and his lying staff.
However even illegal wars can prove the waste, the horror, and the inhumanity. The lives lost are calculable within 80% accuracy.
The number of lives permanently fucked up by war are incalculable. The suffering will continue as the profits continue to gain interest. For many generations.
Any leader who wages war inflicts that reality on his armies. And his enemies.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)As long as the word "war" is in the human vocabulary, inhumane will be standing by its side; ready to serve, as its right-hand "man."
Prometheus Bound
(3,489 posts)Murdered seven children and a 76-year-old man in a wheelchair.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)You and I, were standing by their sides.
Prometheus Bound
(3,489 posts)I want nothing to do with you.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)I respect your wants, but not you awareness.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)How do YOU propose we stop the next one, which appears to be imminent? You are good at accusing but I see no solutions from you. I'm interested as there is nothing millions of decent people everywhere would like better than to stop the possible upcoming attack on Iran. Make some suggestions please. We are listening.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:43 AM - Edit history (1)
If our government is inhumane and uncivilized, we are inhumane and uncivilized human beings--not accepting it, is not an option.
Until each of our citizens sees themselves as an individual human being, instead of a stereotypical member of whatever group, we shall remain inhumane and uncivilized. The reason we separate ourselves into groups, is same reason prehistoric humans formed tribes.
I see Iran, but I have not heard this question asked a single time. When was the last time Iran started a war? I'll save a click or two. NEVER.
Edit to consider: If Iran has never started a war, what does that say about their civilization?
Guy Montag
(126 posts)Thousands of innocent Iraqis died needlessly, murdered in a fascist climate of tacitly approved murder and the routine carrying of drop weapons.
This war was illegal and immoral, and we had no right to go or business being there.
Gigibagigi
(21 posts)Opening a site about the whole Haditha incident?
We can put there documents, photos, etc.
I am already in contact with another guy
Response to Gigibagigi (Reply #94)
Guy Montag This message was self-deleted by its author.
Guy Montag
(126 posts)efforts to show what was wrong with the invasion and the conduct of many of the participants.
I am all for that, and I am also a U.S. Amy veteran as well who knows what war crimes are and why they are never justified.
P.S. I had to auto delete the previous answer as I got confused as to which thread this was. The answer in that was appropriate for another thread I responded to, not this one.
This interface is different than many I am used to in other forums.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)
and there are no specific articles for War Crimes. The Laws of War are fundamentally different from the Rules of Law. Under the Laws of War, killing civilians is to be avoided; but is not forbidden. "Military Necessity," is legal justification for doing so.
We are in complete agreement with respect to "what was wrong with the invasion;" but once our young people are on the battlefield, they are deserving of the benefit of doubt. Battlefield mayhem, affects a misadjusted focus that blurs the view to a degree that it is impossible to see it from an arm-chair recliner.
Guy Montag
(126 posts)to make war merely to spread the fiction we are the white hats going after the black hats against us spreading our 'superior' culture around the world.
Our troops were routinely killing just to kill, and the routine use of drop weapons proves this.
I give no free pass for the evil of NeoCon war. And too many thousands of innocent civilians died there for there to be an easy acceptance casually of Iraqi veterans.
I do not give Iraqi veterans anywhere near the respect I gave to the WW II generation. When I am at veteran functions, I stay away from them generally.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 03:32 PM - Edit history (1)
I do not give much consideration to the possibility of being able to catch up with Secretariat. My first consideration is closing the door to prevent future losses.
Our troops were routinely killing just to kill, and the routine use of drop weapons proves this.
You have attracted my interest; I will be most appreciative if you will equip me with a better understanding of this technique.
Guy Montag
(126 posts)ANP INVESTIGATION: Iraq and Drop Weapons
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)But more importantly, you have provided no evidence whatsoever to support a very serious accusation against our young people on the battlefield.
Our troops were routinely killing just to kill, and the routine use of drop weapons proves this.
I watched as Jason Washburm, Sergio Kochergin, Jon Turmer and Vincent Emanuele, spoke casually about how easily AK-47s are to obtain; and their perception of sublineal messages.
And then, Solomon, the Professor of Law, a.k.a., Gary Solis, tells us "about the ones that made the newspapers...and how it happens more often than we would like to believe. And certainly more frequently than we know."
And then, repeat...same people, same articulation; with a swap of words from limited vocabularies.
Captions - None of them admitted to committing a crime
And then, Solomon gives it all away "as long as you put high powered weapons into the hands of 18 and 19 year olds, bad stuffs gonna happen once in a while. And the best we can do, is aggressively prosecute those cases…"
But you had already beat him to the punch:
I do not give Iraqi veterans anywhere near the respect I gave to the WW II generation. When I am at veteran functions, I stay away from them generally.
As anyone who has ever dropped an M-16 in the sand will tell you, it would be impossible exaggerate the magnitude of value of an AK-47, when fighting on a desert battlefield.
Who needs enemies, when you have such nice friends
Gigibagigi
(21 posts)I am contacting you about this project by PM.
There are other one or two people interested
EDIT.
I do not have enough posts to send you a direct message.
If you have, please send me a message yourself
jzodda
(2,124 posts)This should really help relations....
What it represents is a total miscarriage of justice. This is the primary reason why we are out of Iraq btw. We refused to have our troops submit to their justice system so we wound up having to leave.
Murder is murder....These guys got off.
They will have to live with the crime for the rest of their lives.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)that you do not have live in the darkness of inconsideration for the rest of your life.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)If only I could kill 24 innocents and get off by saying it was just an accident and I'll never do it again...
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Not trying to 'wow' anybody, but, uhhh OK.....
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)Last edited Mon Feb 6, 2012, 11:16 PM - Edit history (1)
We become annoyed, and justifiably so, when hard-heads force us to look for the Advil, to ease the pain caused by their ignorance and/or denial of science.
However, many of the opinions expressed in this corridor, demonstrate same ignorance and/or denial of human psychological factors--the human element, and its affects on the military bearing of soldiers. To the knowing observer, it's understandable and predictable--it has existed heretofore as it will henceforth.
But for whatever reason, many people simply repudiate reality. (Where is the Advil?)
Next, we People like Solomon, the Professor of Law, a.k.a., Gary Solis. I don't know...I am not comfortable with using the term "enemy," to define him, but if I am a soldier, he is not my friend. Moreover, his judgment and understanding of the Laws of War, is dubious.
There is a fundamental difference between the Laws of War and the Rules of Law, and Solomon appears to be trying to merge and muddle, in an effort to re-define the Laws of War. That is intellectually dishonest professional comportment. Thus, he is not qualified to judge our soldiers.
Edited: To Address The Jury Room
The legal maxim, "innocent, until judged guilty, by one's peers," is a basic principle of common law; and it remains with us today. Susan Anthony, made the argument during her trail for illegal voting, that she had not been judged by her peers. I do not see how I could make a rational argument against her; with the proviso of her status.
Likewise, a civilian jury that might include a Paris Hilton, or a Charley Sheen, would not constitute a jury of a soldier's peers. Would it?
Also edited to wallow in the magnificence of glory:
cbrer
(1,831 posts)1. The entire war was illegal.
2. Does the murder of 100,000 civilians count?
3. GWB's attitude was "cowboy".
4. War is inhuman by definition.
5. I don't know what broke in this guys head.
6. I don't know what broke in his squad's heads.
7. If you haven't experienced a mind fuck of this proportion, your opinions are second or third rate.
8. Legalities that entangle problems of our own making, are a setup.
9. This guy was defending his country at the time of his "snap".
10. We do precious little to determine the acute nature of the psychiatric problems we've created that will affect these people for the rest of their lives.
11. If we didn't want this kind of thing to happen, we shouldn't have permitted it. Tacitly or expressively.
12. This guy, in some ways, describes the institution. He's not the exception.
And all the rest of cumulative experiences being discussed on this thread by ones who have been in the trenches. Not Heros. Survivors.
"Cry Havoc, and loose the Dogs of War"
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)I share your view regarding the legality of the war; however, legislation was enacted by the Legislature that authorized the Executive to unilaterally "declare War."
The Legislature represents you and me; therefore, in your next point, you and I must bear the responsibility of "the murder of 100,000 civilians."
cbrer
(1,831 posts)Your conclusion. And what makes it even worse is that I was in favor of the invasion based on what we were being told.
But yes, under the terms of our Republic, we are supposed to be the bosses. And conscienciously, I do feel the weight of those non-combatants killed by America's military actions. It's very easy to throw ones hands up and say "I'm only one person". But truthfully, it's many such actions that produce acquiescence, or the decision for change.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)your conscientiousness is evident in your acknowledgment that you did. Your support, like many legislators, was support for what you thought was the right way to counter a tortuous, homicidal maniac, that was developing "weapons of mass destruction."
The tortuous, homicidal maniac was real; the weapons of mass destruction were a lie. It is not possible to make rational judgments, absent of the truth. The troubling absence of truth element, lingers still...as does my uneasiness.
We must demand truth, from our Representatives, and not acquiesce to their lies; without regard to D and Rs.
cbrer
(1,831 posts)How you ever seen the political satire of George Carlin?
"If we ever start telling the truth in America, it will fuck us all up". Or words to that effect...
There is so much rampant bullshit being peddled in the USA that it's impossible to separate the "wheat from the chaff".
Even if you are one of the rare individuals who aren't working an agenda.
Of course I agree with being honest. It's just a flexible notion. Along with our political and justice systems.
Our nation is headed now, by a Nobel peace prize winner who commanded 2 wars. Ending one, perpetuating the other.
The "Patriot act"?
The "National Defense Authorization Act"?
Honestly, what is a person to do? Revolution.
Thaddeus Kosciuszko
(307 posts)...and the facial expressions he employed to accentuate it. I can see his demonic smile right now 
Politics affects a misadjusted focus for everyone involved--including the electorate. It would be irrational to believe otherwise. However, I have no tolerance for dishonesty whatsoever, when the card on the table is war.
Many legislators were inexperienced, unaware or naive; however, some of the more seasoned Representatives on both sides had to know that they were being lied to. Those are the types of legislators that I abhor. They have no consideration for humanity and are unworthy to represent human beings.
cbrer
(1,831 posts)To representatives who were interested in what's best for the country. And could build a consesnsus on how to proceed to that mutually beneficial goal? The power play we are witnessing today seems to be about 90% class struggle. How selfish must one be to not see the benefit in sustainability? In term of economy and environment.
