Edward Snowden: US government has been hacking Hong Kong and China for years
Source: South China Morning Post
Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.
...
Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.
We hack network backbones like huge internet routers, basically that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one, he said.
Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.
Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries.
Read more: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china
msongs
(67,347 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The guy belongs to the Chinese government now--he's an agent of theirs.
flamingdem
(39,308 posts)still thinking he's a hero!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)God bless hypocrisy.
flamingdem
(39,308 posts)and become a congressman in China!
MADem
(135,425 posts)No, I'm not kidding.
....So far, there are no formal criminal charges from the U.S. government against Snowden, although sources tell CBS News that is likely to happen soon. Any request for extradition will probably not begin until charges are filed.
Snowden allegedly claimed in his interview with the Post that the U.S. has already tried to extradite him, something government officials on both sides of the Pacific have made no public comments about.
dothemath
(345 posts)Who knew no one, no country except the USA could have possibly known how to hack, spy, listen, watch and store all manner of information about any person or entity until last week. All those phony KGB spies, muslim terrorists, Stasi spies from E. Germany, Julian Assange, those dumbass Chinese, ad infinitum, were just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, hoping they would be given the information held only in 'secret' by our brilliant politicians and bureaucrats - and let us not forget the military industrial complex contractors, all of whom are scrupulously honest and patriotic - entrusted with a googolplex of private information ..... have to stop now, I am laughing so hard, it hurts.
geek tragedy is an apt nom de plume for an oblivious pawn. Get out of the pool.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)myopic as well as pretentious and self-conscious.
The point, since it sailed over your head, is that he likely showed them HOW the NSA accessed their computer systems and how the NSAs own systems work.
Which will make it easier for them to spy on us and prevent us from spying on them.
askeptic
(478 posts)Folks are sadly mistaken if they think the Chinese are new to IT or think they aren't as sophisticated as we are. They know what the spy game consists of and they certainly know we are engaged in it.
askeptic
(478 posts)and in this case it's the Chinese they were worried about -- even gives about as much info on how its done
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/05/business/la-fi-us-china-mobile-20120505
timdog44
(1,388 posts)United States hacks computers in other countries. Big deal. Edward Snowden trying to validate himself. What an asshat.
I hope Russia accepts his bid for asylum. Good riddance to bad trash.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)He's their pet now.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)Maybe Russia does not deserve him. Let China have him.
mimi85
(1,805 posts)Glenn Greenwald as well.
Greenwald:
"Snowden was clear from the start that he didn't want indiscriminate document dumping, but only disclosures that passed a careful and judicious journalistic test weighing public interest versus harm. I have no idea if he has a contingency plan to protect himself he might but everything I've heard from him has been opposed to gratuitous disclosures.
As for the Guardian, I've been flying the last 24 hours so am not updated on what they may have done in that regard."
timdog44
(1,388 posts)here is, is he so much smarter than everyone else to know what to "dump" and not to "dump". Sounds to me like Greenwald coveering his ass. I'll bet he could say it in Mandarin. Or maybe he better learn.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Or not.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)whole thing is so convoluted and still emerging as to be almost unable to comment on it. I am commenting and making my opinions known. And a number of people have not liked what I said, or have been down right rude (don't get that), but in the end, if I need to, I will formally take back what I have said. I have already modified some of my opinions. I still think this is still a diversion from other matters much more important. And I think that is where I get into trouble as a lot of people think the 4th is very important. I do too. Just that there is something fishy about this, just like Benghazi, the IRS thing, and the AP thing. One after another after another.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)I was pointing out the interpretation contrary to that which you chose, which seems to be a default for many people.
Benghazi was bullshit, the IRS bullshit, the AP, not quite. They are all individual situations.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)Just opining. Like I said, there is much to come out yet and most of us are in supposition land.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Greenwald spent at least a year on the payroll of the Koch-supported CATO Institute, and this latest interview was to the Rupert Murdoch-owned South China Morning Post.
Who's paying this guy's bills, I wonder?
It's a fair question.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)He may be getting to the point where his bill are going to be too big to be paid.
I keep seeing more and more former "spies" coming out and offering their two cents worth. It is only muddying the waters. Like Richard Clarke just had an editorial and it is in another post. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023002358
He has his say and seems to me says things both ways. "Rather, the law envisioned the administration coming to a special court on a case-by-case basis to explain why it needed to have specific records. I am troubled by the precedent of stretching a law on domestic surveillance almost to the breaking point. On issues so fundamental to our civil liberties, elected leaders should not be so needlessly secretive." For me, I have not seen any conclusive evidence that the government is not doing things on a case by case basis. And I have not seen any conclusive evidence that all phone calls are being mined. And therein lies the problem. Somewhere else there was a statement that "over 34000 requests had been made since 1979" and implied that that was an extraordinary number. But 34000 divided by 34 years is only 1000 requests per year. I would suspect that they are being made on fairly secure footing for there to be that few. I just don't get it.
I have to always explain that I think surveillance to be a necessary evil, and it should be a small one. No mercenary spies. I hate mercenaries. They go to the highest bidder ( I think Snowden worked for a mercenary spy group). Limit the number of agencies that can do surveillance and make it so the agencies that are left, can cross reference with each other instead of competing with each other.
MADem
(135,425 posts)It's not like we're populated like Canada. We've got a few people up in here!
I think it's clear that Snowden has stepped over a line, and I find it very odd how many people are ignoring the many things that are curious about this whole imbroglio--particularly the timing.
The timing is the thing. There are some things that need to be fixed, I don't doubt. Our technology has vastly outpaced the regulation of same.
reorg
(3,317 posts)His spokesperson, at least, stated:
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/12/world/la-fg-worldwide-threats-20130313
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)Which I expect is one of the reasons some have got their underwear in such a knot over it.
I never thought he was a hero in the first place, so meh. This doesn't really change much for me.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)I missed your reply to me. I think I am having a brain fart. I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I think it is a big deal with countries hacking each other. I was being somewhat sarcastic and did not indicate that. And I may have watched too many espionage movies, but I think it goes on, both ways. I think China should be walking on eggshells as far as too much hacking into our national security and banking. The US as a last resort could nationalize everything Chinese in this country (except the restaurants) and probably destroy their economy. But I think we as a country, are also into the hacking business. Some for self defense, some just because we can do it.
"The international community cannot afford to tolerate such activity from any country" and that means the United States as well. Therein would lie the hypocrisy.
reorg
(3,317 posts)when countries break into the networks of others in order to collect data without authorisation. Mr Snowden appears to agree with Obama and apparently thought he should inform the Chinese about the goings-on, so they can do something about it.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post as dismissing the hacking activities by the US when you said "big deal", as it appeared to me, with an ironical twang.
If we, OTOH, all agree that Snowden did the right thing to inform the Chinese of the "big deal", then we should all be grateful for his initiative and courage, thanks.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)of different opinions on this. But that is why we talk about this. I think Snowden sold us down the road. And I think the United States is also hacking into the China computer systems. But I am not sure you say you agree with Snowden, only that he "may have" done the right thing. It is always a dubious thing to be a whistleblower especially with a not too reputable reporter at his back. A better way to have done this would have been to go to a congressional member who he knows would be of a similar thought pattern. I think Snowdenn is digging a hole that he won't be able to get out of. If what he did was treasonous, and I only say if, no other country is ever going to believe anything he has to say.
The misunderstanding of my post before was due to my attempt at sarcastic humor. Sorry about that.
We shall see what comes of this. Like I agreed with someone on another exchange, the timing of this whole thing is very suspect.
Later.
eissa
(4,238 posts)Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)This is getting to be real dangerous. Granted, China probably knew we spied on them, but to do it in this manner can and could be dangerous. We can't put the genie back in the bottle once it's out. This guy is turning into a big asshole.
flamingdem
(39,308 posts)and he can get Chinese food and massages free for life.
What does he do for an encore?
christx30
(6,241 posts)is what starts a war, who would you blame? The guy that tells the Chinese? Or the fools that were actually doing it?
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)they have their IT security people just like we do.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)Companies, and military & government systems is just childs play.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)It is why we need "limited" surveillance. And then get someone to make our computers unhackable, but I guess that is dreaming.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)askeptic
(478 posts)so we disagree 180
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Lochloosa
(16,057 posts)Response to msanthrope (Reply #16)
askeptic This message was self-deleted by its author.
askeptic
(478 posts)So I guess hacking secure networks is a crime when individuals do it unless they can hide behind governments. Interesting ethics
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)The Stranger
(11,297 posts)It's the Constitution.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Try again.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)The U.S.C. is on line.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)askeptic
(478 posts)would cover the acts of the US govt as being illegal in this case. But, of course, the police state can do anything that would otherwise be a crime for individuals, including criminalizing the exposure of the unconstitutional eavesdropping - a crime. Guess you can compartmentalize better than I
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)askeptic
(478 posts)I know you must be the great Oracle who knows everything
askeptic
(478 posts)from Wikipedia
The only computers, in theory, covered by the CFAA are defined as protected computers. They are defined under section 18 U.S.C. § 1030(e)(2) to mean a computer:
exclusively for the use of a financial institution or the United States Government, or any computer, when the conduct constituting the offense affects the computer's use by or for the financial institution or the Government; or
which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication, including a computer located outside the United States that is used in a manner that affects interstate or foreign commerce or communication of the United States...
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Cite an act.
Cite a statute.
Argue how the act meets the elements of the offense outlined in the statute.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Everyone's a Supreme Court justice, these days, or a constitutional scholar! But no one can give us chapter and verse.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)askeptic
(478 posts)It's true we are the biggest bully on the block, but I'm pretty sure it's a crime, nonetheless, if you ask the Chinese. Or maybe we DON'T consider it a crime when US government computers are hacked from outside our country? I guess stealing is called something different when WE do it, eh?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Because they're working for the Chinese government.
askeptic
(478 posts)Foreigners are definitely prosecuted for hacking into US systems. I don't think anyone has doubted that the NSA/CIA/ whatever the hell else secret org has had their packet sniffers on all of the primary intercontinental internet routers since all the undersea cables mysteriously broke in the ME, North Africa and Europe a few years back. The big deal about it is that international monetary transfers go over these same backbones and are in the trillions daily. Which is why encryption is a big deal. I don't believe even NSA can break some encryption techniques.
Cha
(296,775 posts)totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)still be calling him a traitor? If so then I respect your opinion but if not I don't.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)to us.
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)agree with it.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)I didn't know that.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Do try again though.
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)know we've been doing this since, when were computers invented again? The fact that he doesn't mention what they did under Bush is extremely suspect. I hope that soon we'll see who is behind this. I wonder if Klayman, who filed about 20 lawsuits against the Clinton administration, had been working on his Obama lawsuit prior to this revelation. Snowden is fully in the category of traitor now. I wonder if he was turned by the Chinese a while back? I know the Chinese don't like being called out by the Obama administration on their hacking. If the next Republican presidential candidate sucks up to the Chinese to get some good press form them i'll vomit.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)yup he wants to pin all this on Obama
temmer
(358 posts)OKNancy
(41,832 posts)2009...
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)in his first interview:
"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he says. "I realised that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."
He said it was during his CIA stint in Geneva that he thought for the first time about exposing government secrets. But, at the time, he chose not to for two reasons.
First, he said: "Most of the secrets the CIA has are about people, not machines and systems, so I didn't feel comfortable with disclosures that I thought could endanger anyone". Secondly, the election of Barack Obama in 2008 gave him hope that there would be real reforms, rendering disclosures unnecessary.
He claims he didn't want to disclose anything that would "endanger anyone" give me a break. Also, Obama has reigned in the programs. Even Bush's former security advisor said that and he hates Obama. Obama took the program from executive branch to legislative branch and added safeguards. Is what he said.
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)Obama by name. If I missed it please post it. Much of this criticism is about the creeping surveillance state and it's not specific to any president.
Igel
(35,270 posts)Since 2001, when he was 17?
Perhaps he's just talking about stuff he can plausibly know about. Unless we really believe there are no coincidences, but that's just silly talk.
Not every coincidence is a pattern. We humans find patterns everywhere.
"Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain...."
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)likely had access to it's timeline. There could be a new program, but he didn't say since "at least 2009" he said flat out "since 2009". Saying that we're trying to hack into computers in China is not even news. Anyone paying attention knows that. His revelation doesn't serve to expose our spying on China. It serves to hand over to them where we are with it. He's giving them a leg up by telling them what we have accomplished and where their breeches are.
Cha
(296,775 posts)totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)I don't necessarily see a conspiracy here.
railsback
(1,881 posts)I just hope Ellsberg stops jumping on whistleblower bandwagons. What he did was truly heroic in whistleblower annals.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)since 2009 how is it damaging to reveal that it is being done?
eissa
(4,238 posts)The Patriot Act went into effect in 2001, and we're to believe that this only started happening once Obama became President? Bullshit.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)and is expanding. Do you see a problem or just want to protect a politician?
eissa
(4,238 posts)that legally authorizes these activities. But I haven't heard one word about that from either Snowden or Greenwald. I hear implications that this administration, and only this administration, is behaving in some tyrannical manner that threatens our very existence, when these activities have been occurring for over a decade.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)and I don't care what party started it I care which will end it.
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)If you can provide a quote of him saying that please post it.
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)Who started it isn't important to me who stops it is.
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)I haven't said anything bad about him on a personal basis, but this is just too much. He has turned into what was it... a narcissistic fool.
He is loving the attention. If he had shut up and been satisfied with his previous revelations, he could have probably been held in high esteem by many, but not now. He ain't so smart after all.
If the feds were lukewarm about going after him before, I'm sure they aren't now.
temmer
(358 posts)to maximize his chances to stay there.
He was certainly aware that this would spark off a nationalistic backlash at home ("traitor" etc). But he's in HK now.
Hekate
(90,538 posts)They are not an independent entity; they only have as much "independence" as they do because it serves the Chinese government economically and diplomatically to let them.
Hekate
(90,538 posts)... to bring down significant portions of OUR infrastructure! They aren't our friends, sonny!
nineteen50
(1,187 posts)the blow their minds setting. If you throw enough crap in the air everything looks like crap.
tridim
(45,358 posts)This guy is the new poster boy for "DERP".
Alhena
(3,030 posts)this guy is going to spill every classified secret that was entrusted to him to further his own personal cause. This hacking of Chinese interests - which they have been doing to us for years - is just plain old fashioned espionage. And revealing it is just plain old fashioned treason. No "right to privacy" fig leaf to put on this one.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)Cha
(296,775 posts)flamingdem
(39,308 posts)in Hong Kong.. food critic.. tour guide..
MADem
(135,425 posts)Shopkeepers, restaurants--everyone knows "enough" English to get by and many are quite fluent.
North Korea might need English teachers--he'd be safe there. Welcome, too.
I think, with this interview, he crushed any hope of getting to Iceland--not that there was much hope of that, anyway.
flamingdem
(39,308 posts)regarding how China wants him to leave.
We don't really know his relationship to China, but once they have what they want why let him stay.
This man may have a short life.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)Snowden was a whistleblower until he crossed the line and gave away information to China, he is now a traitor who in my opinion is guilty of treason.
moobu2
(4,822 posts)totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)stupid.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)Stupid? Stupid is making excuses for treasonous behavior. I supported Snowden's actions until he crossed the line, at that point he became something more than a wistleblower, that something is a traitor.
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)is easy to throw out there. Bradley Manning, Julian Assange and Daniel Ellsberg have also been called traitors.
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)Of course China knows we were survielling them, but they would have no way of knowing what our specific methods and or specific targets were. Now thanks to Snowden they know exactly what we were doing. Of course you brush it off as nothing because it hurts the credibility of Snowden as a wistleblower and that's all that matters to you.
Let's try to keep things factual here, yes Snowden exposed U.S. surviellance of Americans which may or may not be legal (which I support him for), but he also gave surviellance secrets to China which makes him a traitor.
Your apple has a huge ugly worm in it, but you pretend the worm is not there because you like apples.
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)and they can also tell how. There is software specifically designed to detect such things.
askeptic
(478 posts)They are not beginners in IT.
As to detecting that you are being hacked, it depends on how sophisticated the hackee is. But there is almost no such thing as a connected system that is unhackable. On the other hand, plenty of very important systems are poorly secured and may have functioning back doors that will surely try to be found. I'm sure we have several pathways to the same information, and that there is very little real impact to our spying and hacking activities.
On a scale of 1-10, this ranks a 1 for me compared to the 4th Amendment violations of the NSA as revealed, and so I think it is why this issue is going to be played as much as possible to try to pretend there is some kind of offsetting equality to the two.
HangOnKids
(4,291 posts)Many of the posters here today have seen too many really awful spy movies I think.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)sorry to burst your bubble but you were too quick to jump on a bandwagon...
DrewFlorida
(1,096 posts)What he revealed was straddling the line of unconstitutional, in my opinion. I am of two minds on this subject, #1 I dislike the erosion of our privacy which the patriot act has created and I understand that with the best of government intentions comes abuses of power, #2 I understand the importance of the surveillance and the patriot act in fighting a different kind of war with Al Qeda and I accept a certain loss of privacy in order to protect us from terrorists. I supported Snowden's efforts as a wistleblower initially, I agree now that he is not a wistleblower, rather he is a traitor.
The snarky wording of your post is a bit rude, and uncalled for, you would be much more effective at getting your point across without the snark.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and i say....no he isn't...and he never was...we need to quash that meme right now!
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I, for one, would like to know...
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts),
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Democrats(tm) 2013
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)Does this dickhead actually have any new info? Anything important?
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)to the Chinese. But you are right. None of that stuff is secret. Any systems administrator worth his or her salt can tell if their system is being hacked. The Chinese have known about this all along. Both sides have probably been doing it for years.
And also I have to say that the widespread reach of the surveillance state is a much bigger issue than Snowden himself. Even if it is established that he is a traitor to his country I still think that we have to try to reign in the surveillance state. I support Alan Grayson's porposed legislation on this topic.
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)Grayson is one of the few worthy of respect.
still_one
(92,060 posts)totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)government about this one way or the other. And I took a quick glance at the Xinhua English language page and saw no reference to it there, which is odd considering what a big story it is. I'm not sure why they are ignoring it. Perhaps they haven't figured out how to respond to it yet. It has been big news in Hong Kong newspapers but as far as I can tell they are treating it as a straight news story.
I also checked out a recent CCTV English language newscast and saw no mention of it either.
But even if it does give the Chinese some propaganda value, if this is the price we have to pay to get out information about how extensive the surveillance state is, then so be it.
still_one
(92,060 posts)roamer65
(36,744 posts)Really makes me wonder who u do actually work for and what agenda you truly have...
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:25 PM - Edit history (1)
For one thing the two countries are joined at the hip with so much trade.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Autumn
(44,972 posts)It doesn't sound like they were looking for "terrorists" . It almost seems like they were looking for personal information. I think I lean toward them looking for personal or financial information. I wonder why.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Autumn
(44,972 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of those categories will include parts of their MIC and espionage structure
Beacool
(30,247 posts)What world does this guy live in? Doe she think that what the NSA is doing is unique to the US? There are many foreign spies in the US. I don't know if this guy is naive or disingenuous.
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)He doesn't have any useful information for the Chinese. He isn't saying anything they don't know already. His usefulness is to the American people exposing to us how extensive the surveillance state is. Did the people who are calling him a traitor ever stop to think that he just might be telling the truth about why he went to China? Perhaps he really believes he can get fairer treatment there. Look at the way Bradley Manning has been treated over here. And remember what the government tried to do to Daniel Ellsberg. They illegally broke into his office and tried everything they could to destroy him. Our treatment of whistleblowers has been pathetic. At the very least he can do no worse in China. And that is a sad commentary on this country.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)David__77
(23,311 posts)Despite the wishes of the Correa government, the US has more influence in Ecuador than in China.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)If Ecuador's good enough for Assange, it ought to be good enough for this guy.
No, the real answer is that Assange chose Ecuador because they'll allow him to be independent and speak his mind, whereas Snowden chose China because he is of value to them and can thus negotiate himself a nice deal.
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)has burgeoning tech industries. He is a young man and must be thinking about what he wants to do with the rest of his life and he may have decided to try to make a career in China using his computer skills.
It seems that a lot of people at this site are rushing to jump to negative conclusions about his motives without first having any evidence to back it up. You speak as if it's a documented fact that he is trying to negotiate a deal with the Chinese when actually all you are doing is guessing just like I am. The difference is that for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt which I feel all people deserve.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)So, NSA computer expert defects to China, expects to make money using his computer expertise, and you don't suspect he'll be sharing what he learned at the NSA?
totodeinhere
(13,056 posts)doubt lacking any evidence to the contrary. And why do you seem to want to make one of the worst possible interpretations of his motives?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)in China have credibility issues.
Kind of like someone saying they want to fight global poverty and then becoming a bond trader at Goldman Sachs.
Dr Fate
(32,189 posts)At least we are not the only ones who need it.