Edward Snowden: US government has been hacking Hong Kong and China for years

[geek tragedy]

Source: South China Morning Post

Snowden said that according to unverified documents seen by the Post, the NSA had been hacking computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland since 2009. None of the documents revealed any information about Chinese military systems, he said.

...

Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.

“We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” he said.

“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”

Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”.



Read more: http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259508/edward-snowden-us-government-has-been-hacking-hong-kong-and-china

---

[msongs]

1. that's hardly a revelation lol nt

[geek tragedy]

2. showing the Chinese how we've done it will be for them.

The guy belongs to the Chinese government now--he's an agent of theirs.

[flamingdem]

20. I wonder if he's sitting there with his Chinese minder

still thinking he's a hero!

[geek tragedy]

21. Ron Paul supporter becomes agent of the Chinese Communist Party.

God bless hypocrisy.

[flamingdem]

46. Maybe he can start a Libertarian Party

and become a congressman in China!

[MADem]

55. Tells all in exclusive interview to Rupert Murdoch's South China Morning Post.

No, I'm not kidding.

The South China Morning Post, owned by Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation and based in Hong Kong, claimed Wednesday to have obtained an exclusive interview with Snowden. Their report states he "has been holed up in secret locations in Hong Kong."

....So far, there are no formal criminal charges from the U.S. government against Snowden, although sources tell CBS News that is likely to happen soon. Any request for extradition will probably not begin until charges are filed.

Snowden allegedly claimed in his interview with the Post that the U.S. has already tried to extradite him, something government officials on both sides of the Pacific have made no public comments about.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57588941/edward-snowden-i-am-not-here-to-hide/

[dothemath]

107. Woe is us ................

Who knew no one, no country except the USA could have possibly known how to hack, spy, listen, watch and store all manner of information about any person or entity until last week. All those phony KGB spies, muslim terrorists, Stasi spies from E. Germany, Julian Assange, those dumbass Chinese, ad infinitum, were just sitting around twiddling their thumbs, hoping they would be given the information held only in 'secret' by our brilliant politicians and bureaucrats - and let us not forget the military industrial complex contractors, all of whom are scrupulously honest and patriotic - entrusted with a googolplex of private information ..... have to stop now, I am laughing so hard, it hurts.

geek tragedy is an apt nom de plume for an oblivious pawn. Get out of the pool.

[geek tragedy]

109. your word salad missed the point, so it was

myopic as well as pretentious and self-conscious.

The point, since it sailed over your head, is that he likely showed them HOW the NSA accessed their computer systems and how the NSAs own systems work.

Which will make it easier for them to spy on us and prevent us from spying on them.

[askeptic]

115. They already knew the how - its what they do to control intra-China,

Folks are sadly mistaken if they think the Chinese are new to IT or think they aren't as sophisticated as we are. They know what the spy game consists of and they certainly know we are engaged in it.

[askeptic]

123. An old LAT 2012 shows nothing really revealed - explains how carrier owner can hack

and in this case it's the Chinese they were worried about -- even gives about as much info on how its done

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/05/business/la-fi-us-china-mobile-20120505

[timdog44]

3. New Flash!!!!

United States hacks computers in other countries. Big deal. Edward Snowden trying to validate himself. What an asshat.

I hope Russia accepts his bid for asylum. Good riddance to bad trash.

[geek tragedy]

4. If you read the article, he's clearly sucking up to the Chinese.

He's their pet now.

[timdog44]

6. Absolutely.

Maybe Russia does not deserve him. Let China have him.

[mimi85]

27. Maybe they'll take firebagger

Glenn Greenwald as well.

[Hissyspit]

28. Why?

Greenwald:

"Snowden was clear from the start that he didn't want indiscriminate document dumping, but only disclosures that passed a careful and judicious journalistic test weighing public interest versus harm. I have no idea if he has a contingency plan to protect himself — he might — but everything I've heard from him has been opposed to gratuitous disclosures.

As for the Guardian, I've been flying the last 24 hours so am not updated on what they may have done in that regard."

[timdog44]

31. I guess my problem

here is, is he so much smarter than everyone else to know what to "dump" and not to "dump". Sounds to me like Greenwald coveering his ass. I'll bet he could say it in Mandarin. Or maybe he better learn.

[Hissyspit]

32. "sounds like"

Or not.

[timdog44]

33. I think this

whole thing is so convoluted and still emerging as to be almost unable to comment on it. I am commenting and making my opinions known. And a number of people have not liked what I said, or have been down right rude (don't get that), but in the end, if I need to, I will formally take back what I have said. I have already modified some of my opinions. I still think this is still a diversion from other matters much more important. And I think that is where I get into trouble as a lot of people think the 4th is very important. I do too. Just that there is something fishy about this, just like Benghazi, the IRS thing, and the AP thing. One after another after another.

[Hissyspit]

36. You are most certainly welcome to your opinion.

I was pointing out the interpretation contrary to that which you chose, which seems to be a default for many people.

Benghazi was bullshit, the IRS bullshit, the AP, not quite. They are all individual situations.

[timdog44]

38. Hope you don't think I am being argumentative.

Just opining. Like I said, there is much to come out yet and most of us are in supposition land.

[Hissyspit]

53. No.

[MADem]

65. Well, there are a lot of odd connections, if you want to take that approach.

Greenwald spent at least a year on the payroll of the Koch-supported CATO Institute, and this latest interview was to the Rupert Murdoch-owned South China Morning Post.

Who's paying this guy's bills, I wonder?

It's a fair question.

[timdog44]

81. I wonder who is paying his bills too?

He may be getting to the point where his bill are going to be too big to be paid.

I keep seeing more and more former "spies" coming out and offering their two cents worth. It is only muddying the waters. Like Richard Clarke just had an editorial and it is in another post. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023002358
He has his say and seems to me says things both ways. "Rather, the law envisioned the administration coming to a special court on a case-by-case basis to explain why it needed to have specific records. I am troubled by the precedent of stretching a law on domestic surveillance almost to the breaking point. On issues so fundamental to our civil liberties, elected leaders should not be so needlessly secretive." For me, I have not seen any conclusive evidence that the government is not doing things on a case by case basis. And I have not seen any conclusive evidence that all phone calls are being mined. And therein lies the problem. Somewhere else there was a statement that "over 34000 requests had been made since 1979" and implied that that was an extraordinary number. But 34000 divided by 34 years is only 1000 requests per year. I would suspect that they are being made on fairly secure footing for there to be that few. I just don't get it.

I have to always explain that I think surveillance to be a necessary evil, and it should be a small one. No mercenary spies. I hate mercenaries. They go to the highest bidder ( I think Snowden worked for a mercenary spy group). Limit the number of agencies that can do surveillance and make it so the agencies that are left, can cross reference with each other instead of competing with each other.

[MADem]

90. 1000 warrants a year is chickenfeed. Even 10000 is a drop in the bucket.

It's not like we're populated like Canada. We've got a few people up in here!

I think it's clear that Snowden has stepped over a line, and I find it very odd how many people are ignoring the many things that are curious about this whole imbroglio--particularly the timing.

[timdog44]

94. So true.

The timing is the thing. There are some things that need to be fixed, I don't doubt. Our technology has vastly outpaced the regulation of same.

[reorg]

30. I think Mr Obama disagrees with you

His spokesperson, at least, stated:

The international community cannot afford to tolerate such activity from any country

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/12/world/la-fg-worldwide-threats-20130313

[JoeyT]

39. Yeah, it kind of exposes our hypocrisy.

Which I expect is one of the reasons some have got their underwear in such a knot over it.

I never thought he was a hero in the first place, so meh. This doesn't really change much for me.

[timdog44]

100. I am sorry for not responding sooner.

I missed your reply to me. I think I am having a brain fart. I don't quite understand what you are getting at. I think it is a big deal with countries hacking each other. I was being somewhat sarcastic and did not indicate that. And I may have watched too many espionage movies, but I think it goes on, both ways. I think China should be walking on eggshells as far as too much hacking into our national security and banking. The US as a last resort could nationalize everything Chinese in this country (except the restaurants) and probably destroy their economy. But I think we as a country, are also into the hacking business. Some for self defense, some just because we can do it.

"The international community cannot afford to tolerate such activity from any country" and that means the United States as well. Therein would lie the hypocrisy.

[reorg]

110. I think Mr Obama believes it IS a big deal

when countries break into the networks of others in order to collect data without authorisation. Mr Snowden appears to agree with Obama and apparently thought he should inform the Chinese about the goings-on, so they can do something about it.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post as dismissing the hacking activities by the US when you said "big deal", as it appeared to me, with an ironical twang.

If we, OTOH, all agree that Snowden did the right thing to inform the Chinese of the "big deal", then we should all be grateful for his initiative and courage, thanks.

[timdog44]

114. I think we are

of different opinions on this. But that is why we talk about this. I think Snowden sold us down the road. And I think the United States is also hacking into the China computer systems. But I am not sure you say you agree with Snowden, only that he "may have" done the right thing. It is always a dubious thing to be a whistleblower especially with a not too reputable reporter at his back. A better way to have done this would have been to go to a congressional member who he knows would be of a similar thought pattern. I think Snowdenn is digging a hole that he won't be able to get out of. If what he did was treasonous, and I only say if, no other country is ever going to believe anything he has to say.

The misunderstanding of my post before was due to my attempt at sarcastic humor. Sorry about that.

We shall see what comes of this. Like I agreed with someone on another exchange, the timing of this whole thing is very suspect.

Later.

[warrant46]

102. Ho Hum

[eissa]

5. Fucker n/t

[Politicalboi]

7. Will Snowden be happy if he starts a war?

This is getting to be real dangerous. Granted, China probably knew we spied on them, but to do it in this manner can and could be dangerous. We can't put the genie back in the bottle once it's out. This guy is turning into a big asshole.

[flamingdem]

44. Only if it's a big war

and he can get Chinese food and massages free for life.

What does he do for an encore?

[christx30]

48. If hacking the Chinese

is what starts a war, who would you blame? The guy that tells the Chinese? Or the fools that were actually doing it?

[totodeinhere]

57. Don't you think that the Chinese already knew we were doing it? I'm sure

they have their IT security people just like we do.

[Historic NY]

8. Of course the hundreds of thousand of Chinese hacks of American

Companies, and military & government systems is just childs play.

[timdog44]

10. We can pretty much count on that having happened.

It is why we need "limited" surveillance. And then get someone to make our computers unhackable, but I guess that is dreaming.

[msanthrope]

9. He is a traitor. nt

[askeptic]

13. Well, to me, exposing criminal activity by our government is laudable

so we disagree 180

[msanthrope]

16. Kindly cite the federal statute broken? nt

[Lochloosa]

42. This ^^^^

[askeptic]

62. Funny how spying and hacking only criminal for others!

So I guess hacking secure networks is a crime when individuals do it unless they can hide behind governments. Interesting ethics

[msanthrope]

64. Couldn't find a statute broken, then? nt

[The Stranger]

72. It's not a statute.

It's the Constitution.

[msanthrope]

79. Indeed. You do know that criminal offenses under the Constitution are codified?

Try again.

[The Stranger]

91. Then look it up yourself.

The U.S.C. is on line.

[msanthrope]

93. I'm not the one asserting a law was broken! nt

[askeptic]

74. Looks to me like plain old Computer Fraud and Abuse Act

would cover the acts of the US govt as being illegal in this case. But, of course, the police state can do anything that would otherwise be a crime for individuals, including criminalizing the exposure of the unconstitutional eavesdropping - a crime. Guess you can compartmentalize better than I

[msanthrope]

83. Right. Wanna cite the code section you think was broken? nt

[askeptic]

87. Play lawyer by yourself

I know you must be the great Oracle who knows everything

[askeptic]

86. CFAA includesa computer used in or affecting interstate or FOREIGN commerce or communication

from Wikipedia

The only computers, in theory, covered by the CFAA are defined as “protected computer”s. They are defined under section 18 U.S.C. § 1030(e)(2) to mean a computer:

exclusively for the use of a financial institution or the United States Government, or any computer, when the conduct constituting the offense affects the computer's use by or for the financial institution or the Government; or
which is used in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce or communication, including a computer located outside the United States that is used in a manner that affects interstate or foreign commerce or communication of the United States...

[msanthrope]

92. Ok...that's a definition. What statute was broken? It's easier if you do this...

Cite an act.

Cite a statute.

Argue how the act meets the elements of the offense outlined in the statute.

[MADem]

69. Seriously, I'd like that answer, too.

Everyone's a Supreme Court justice, these days, or a constitutional scholar! But no one can give us chapter and verse.

[geek tragedy]

17. It's criminal to spy on the Chinese government? nt

[askeptic]

80. Is it criminal to hack US Govt computers?

It's true we are the biggest bully on the block, but I'm pretty sure it's a crime, nonetheless, if you ask the Chinese. Or maybe we DON'T consider it a crime when US government computers are hacked from outside our country? I guess stealing is called something different when WE do it, eh?

[geek tragedy]

88. I'm pretty sure no one in China is being prosecuted for hacking our systems.

Because they're working for the Chinese government.

[askeptic]

106. Hmmm--now who were those foreign "anonymous" guys they picked up?

Foreigners are definitely prosecuted for hacking into US systems. I don't think anyone has doubted that the NSA/CIA/ whatever the hell else secret org has had their packet sniffers on all of the primary intercontinental internet routers since all the undersea cables mysteriously broke in the ME, North Africa and Europe a few years back. The big deal about it is that international monetary transfers go over these same backbones and are in the trillions daily. Which is why encryption is a big deal. I don't believe even NSA can break some encryption techniques.

[Cha]

37. Wah wah the US hacked the Chinese Gov

[totodeinhere]

59. If he had revealed the same thing during the Bush Administration would you

still be calling him a traitor? If so then I respect your opinion but if not I don't.

[msanthrope]

60. Absolutely. Regardless of who is President, the Chinese gov't is not a friend

to us.

[totodeinhere]

67. Thank you. I respect your opinion then although I don't entirely

agree with it.

[Warren Stupidity]

124. We are in a state of war with china?

I didn't know that.

[msanthrope]

125. Ask Jonathan Pollard if we were in a state of war with Israel. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

129. Pollard was not accused of treason.

Do try again though.

[okaawhatever]

11. Snowden claims this happened only since 2009? Okay, motive revealed. Obama attack. I think we all

know we've been doing this since, when were computers invented again? The fact that he doesn't mention what they did under Bush is extremely suspect. I hope that soon we'll see who is behind this. I wonder if Klayman, who filed about 20 lawsuits against the Clinton administration, had been working on his Obama lawsuit prior to this revelation. Snowden is fully in the category of traitor now. I wonder if he was turned by the Chinese a while back? I know the Chinese don't like being called out by the Obama administration on their hacking. If the next Republican presidential candidate sucks up to the Chinese to get some good press form them i'll vomit.

[OKNancy]

18. good observation!

yup he wants to pin all this on Obama

[temmer]

19. Hmmm...he doesn't mention Obama with one word!?

[OKNancy]

22. when did Obama take office?

2009...

[okaawhatever]

52. Not only that, but he has previously said bad things about Obama that sounded scripted. He claimed

in his first interview:

"Much of what I saw in Geneva really disillusioned me about how my government functions and what its impact is in the world," he says. "I realised that I was part of something that was doing far more harm than good."

He said it was during his CIA stint in Geneva that he thought for the first time about exposing government secrets. But, at the time, he chose not to for two reasons.

First, he said: "Most of the secrets the CIA has are about people, not machines and systems, so I didn't feel comfortable with disclosures that I thought could endanger anyone". Secondly, the election of Barack Obama in 2008 gave him hope that there would be real reforms, rendering disclosures unnecessary.


He claims he didn't want to disclose anything that would "endanger anyone" give me a break. Also, Obama has reigned in the programs. Even Bush's former security advisor said that and he hates Obama. Obama took the program from executive branch to legislative branch and added safeguards. Is what he said.

[totodeinhere]

71. Where in that quote does he mention Obama? I haven't seen one quote from him criticizing

Obama by name. If I missed it please post it. Much of this criticism is about the creeping surveillance state and it's not specific to any president.

[Igel]

56. And how long has Snowden had access to information?

Since 2001, when he was 17?

Perhaps he's just talking about stuff he can plausibly know about. Unless we really believe there are no coincidences, but that's just silly talk.

Not every coincidence is a pattern. We humans find patterns everywhere.

"Listen to the rhythm of the falling rain...."

[okaawhatever]

68. He was working in DC with the CIA and NSA since 2004. Also, if he had access to the program he

likely had access to it's timeline. There could be a new program, but he didn't say since "at least 2009" he said flat out "since 2009". Saying that we're trying to hack into computers in China is not even news. Anyone paying attention knows that. His revelation doesn't serve to expose our spying on China. It serves to hand over to them where we are with it. He's giving them a leg up by telling them what we have accomplished and where their breeches are.

[Cha]

40. Big Bad Obama! I knew it!

[totodeinhere]

61. He may not have had any access to this type of information prior to 2009.

I don't necessarily see a conspiracy here.

[railsback]

12. Amazing how fast this guy went from 'hero' to 'traitor'

I just hope Ellsberg stops jumping on whistleblower bandwagons. What he did was truly heroic in whistleblower annals.

[nineteen50]

24. If everyone knew it was happening

since 2009 how is it damaging to reveal that it is being done?

[eissa]

43. Because it's been happening long before that

The Patriot Act went into effect in 2001, and we're to believe that this only started happening once Obama became President? Bullshit.

[nineteen50]

49. It started

and is expanding. Do you see a problem or just want to protect a politician?

[eissa]

50. Then re-debate the Patriot Act

that legally authorizes these activities. But I haven't heard one word about that from either Snowden or Greenwald. I hear implications that this administration, and only this administration, is behaving in some tyrannical manner that threatens our very existence, when these activities have been occurring for over a decade.

[nineteen50]

82. I was dead set against the patriot act

and I don't care what party started it I care which will end it.

[totodeinhere]

63. I don't think that he is saying it "only" happened since Obama took office.

If you can provide a quote of him saying that please post it.

[nineteen50]

84. I was against it then and I am against it now.

Who started it isn't important to me who stops it is.

[OKNancy]

14. OK... he's a little turd and a fool

I haven't said anything bad about him on a personal basis, but this is just too much. He has turned into what was it... a narcissistic fool.
He is loving the attention. If he had shut up and been satisfied with his previous revelations, he could have probably been held in high esteem by many, but not now. He ain't so smart after all.

If the feds were lukewarm about going after him before, I'm sure they aren't now.

[temmer]

15. I think this is aimed at the people of Hongkong

to maximize his chances to stay there.

He was certainly aware that this would spark off a nationalistic backlash at home ("traitor" etc). But he's in HK now.

[Hekate]

25. You do know Hong Kong belongs to China, don't you?

They are not an independent entity; they only have as much "independence" as they do because it serves the Chinese government economically and diplomatically to let them.

[Hekate]

23. I should hope we are! For gods' sake, Chinese government hackers have positioned themselves...

... to bring down significant portions of OUR infrastructure! They aren't our friends, sonny!

[nineteen50]

26. and the propaganda machine has been dialed to

the blow their minds setting. If you throw enough crap in the air everything looks like crap.

[tridim]

29. The only question remaining, was he a dumbass before or after he started following Rand Paul?

This guy is the new poster boy for "DERP".

[Alhena]

34. Look forward to hearing the "hero" narrative on this revelation

this guy is going to spill every classified secret that was entrusted to him to further his own personal cause. This hacking of Chinese interests - which they have been doing to us for years - is just plain old fashioned espionage. And revealing it is just plain old fashioned treason. No "right to privacy" fig leaf to put on this one.

[truth2power]

35. Does a bear sh*t in the woods? What else is new? n/t

[Cha]

41. Yeah, Snowden isn't 1/2 as important as he thinks he is.

[flamingdem]

45. maybe he can become an English teacher

in Hong Kong.. food critic.. tour guide..

[MADem]

75. HK is very cosmopolitan--everyone speaks English. I've never had trouble getting around there.

Shopkeepers, restaurants--everyone knows "enough" English to get by and many are quite fluent.

North Korea might need English teachers--he'd be safe there. Welcome, too.

I think, with this interview, he crushed any hope of getting to Iceland--not that there was much hope of that, anyway.

[flamingdem]

76. I just posted a Bloomberg article in GD

regarding how China wants him to leave.

We don't really know his relationship to China, but once they have what they want why let him stay.

This man may have a short life.

[DrewFlorida]

47. This is a game changer for me. Giving Chinese our surviellance secrets is treason.

Snowden was a whistleblower until he crossed the line and gave away information to China, he is now a traitor who in my opinion is guilty of treason.

[moobu2]

51. That was my first thought too.

[totodeinhere]

66. He did not give them any secrets. They surely knew it already. They are not

stupid.

[DrewFlorida]

73. He most certainly did give them secrets, he gave them information about what and how they targeted.

Stupid? Stupid is making excuses for treasonous behavior. I supported Snowden's actions until he crossed the line, at that point he became something more than a wistleblower, that something is a traitor.

[totodeinhere]

78. You really think he told them things they didn't know already? The "T" word

is easy to throw out there. Bradley Manning, Julian Assange and Daniel Ellsberg have also been called traitors.

[DrewFlorida]

85. What in the world makes you think they would know how and what targets we were survielling?

Of course China knows we were survielling them, but they would have no way of knowing what our specific methods and or specific targets were. Now thanks to Snowden they know exactly what we were doing. Of course you brush it off as nothing because it hurts the credibility of Snowden as a wistleblower and that's all that matters to you.
Let's try to keep things factual here, yes Snowden exposed U.S. surviellance of Americans which may or may not be legal (which I support him for), but he also gave surviellance secrets to China which makes him a traitor.

Your apple has a huge ugly worm in it, but you pretend the worm is not there because you like apples.

[totodeinhere]

99. IT security specialists can tell if computer networks are being hacked

and they can also tell how. There is software specifically designed to detect such things.

[askeptic]

112. They already knew the how, they use it themselves to control and monitor intra-China traffic

They are not beginners in IT.

As to detecting that you are being hacked, it depends on how sophisticated the hackee is. But there is almost no such thing as a connected system that is unhackable. On the other hand, plenty of very important systems are poorly secured and may have functioning back doors that will surely try to be found. I'm sure we have several pathways to the same information, and that there is very little real impact to our spying and hacking activities.

On a scale of 1-10, this ranks a 1 for me compared to the 4th Amendment violations of the NSA as revealed, and so I think it is why this issue is going to be played as much as possible to try to pretend there is some kind of offsetting equality to the two.

[HangOnKids]

96. But your apple has a worm in it...or so I read here on DU

Many of the posters here today have seen too many really awful spy movies I think.

[VanillaRhapsody]

98. He was NEVER a whistleblower...he never revealed anything illegal...

sorry to burst your bubble but you were too quick to jump on a bandwagon...

[DrewFlorida]

108. I have no bubble to burst, however...

What he revealed was straddling the line of unconstitutional, in my opinion. I am of two minds on this subject, #1 I dislike the erosion of our privacy which the patriot act has created and I understand that with the best of government intentions comes abuses of power, #2 I understand the importance of the surveillance and the patriot act in fighting a different kind of war with Al Qeda and I accept a certain loss of privacy in order to protect us from terrorists. I supported Snowden's efforts as a wistleblower initially, I agree now that he is not a wistleblower, rather he is a traitor.
The snarky wording of your post is a bit rude, and uncalled for, you would be much more effective at getting your point across without the snark.

[VanillaRhapsody]

111. You said and I quote " Snowden was a whistleblower"

and i say....no he isn't...and he never was...we need to quash that meme right now!

[KansDem]

54. Find out what you had on 9/11/01, then get back with us...

I, for one, would like to know...

[blkmusclmachine]

70. .

,

[hrmjustin]

77. He is going to far now.

[Sunlei]

89. yeah look at all the chinese movies, games, music, technology, we have today /s

[Ash_F]

95. Civilians are game. Here or abroad. Doesn't matter.

Democrats(tm) 2013

[MrSlayer]

97. And they've been hacking us for years. Yawn.

Does this dickhead actually have any new info? Anything important?

[totodeinhere]

101. Yet some people in this thread are calling him a traitor for revealing secret information

to the Chinese. But you are right. None of that stuff is secret. Any systems administrator worth his or her salt can tell if their system is being hacked. The Chinese have known about this all along. Both sides have probably been doing it for years.

And also I have to say that the widespread reach of the surveillance state is a much bigger issue than Snowden himself. Even if it is established that he is a traitor to his country I still think that we have to try to reign in the surveillance state. I support Alan Grayson's porposed legislation on this topic.

[MrSlayer]

104. Agreed.

Grayson is one of the few worthy of respect.

[still_one]

105. The reason for that is because he is a propaganda tool of the Chinese now

[totodeinhere]

121. We'll see about that. So far there have been no statements from the Chinese

government about this one way or the other. And I took a quick glance at the Xinhua English language page and saw no reference to it there, which is odd considering what a big story it is. I'm not sure why they are ignoring it. Perhaps they haven't figured out how to respond to it yet. It has been big news in Hong Kong newspapers but as far as I can tell they are treating it as a straight news story.
I also checked out a recent CCTV English language newscast and saw no mention of it either.

But even if it does give the Chinese some propaganda value, if this is the price we have to pay to get out information about how extensive the surveillance state is, then so be it.

[still_one]

103. Gee, thanks Ed for revealing the hypocrisy from the cradle of democracy, China

[roamer65]

113. Trying to start a war, Mr Snowden?

Really makes me wonder who u do actually work for and what agenda you truly have...

[totodeinhere]

122. Come on. There is not going to be a war between the US and China.

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:25 PM - Edit history (1)

For one thing the two countries are joined at the hip with so much trade.

[Tx4obama]

116. Kick

[Autumn]

117. So the NSA targeted universities, businesses and public officials.

It doesn't sound like they were looking for "terrorists" . It almost seems like they were looking for personal information. I think I lean toward them looking for personal or financial information. I wonder why.

[geek tragedy]

118. they were spying on China nt

[Autumn]

119. Yeah, universities, businesses and public officials in China n/t

[geek tragedy]

120. If China is anything like the US, all three

of those categories will include parts of their MIC and espionage structure

[Beacool]

126. And China and Russia have been hacking the US for years.

What world does this guy live in? Doe she think that what the NSA is doing is unique to the US? There are many foreign spies in the US. I don't know if this guy is naive or disingenuous.

[totodeinhere]

127. Snowden's motives for going to China

He doesn't have any useful information for the Chinese. He isn't saying anything they don't know already. His usefulness is to the American people exposing to us how extensive the surveillance state is. Did the people who are calling him a traitor ever stop to think that he just might be telling the truth about why he went to China? Perhaps he really believes he can get fairer treatment there. Look at the way Bradley Manning has been treated over here. And remember what the government tried to do to Daniel Ellsberg. They illegally broke into his office and tried everything they could to destroy him. Our treatment of whistleblowers has been pathetic. At the very least he can do no worse in China. And that is a sad commentary on this country.

[geek tragedy]

130. Why China instead of Ecuador? nt

[David__77]

131. Maybe because he reasons his security would be better in China.

Despite the wishes of the Correa government, the US has more influence in Ecuador than in China.

[geek tragedy]

132. So why didn't Assange hole up in the Chinese embassy?

If Ecuador's good enough for Assange, it ought to be good enough for this guy.

No, the real answer is that Assange chose Ecuador because they'll allow him to be independent and speak his mind, whereas Snowden chose China because he is of value to them and can thus negotiate himself a nice deal.

[totodeinhere]

133. China is a more high profile country and the southern part of China near Hong Kong

has burgeoning tech industries. He is a young man and must be thinking about what he wants to do with the rest of his life and he may have decided to try to make a career in China using his computer skills.

It seems that a lot of people at this site are rushing to jump to negative conclusions about his motives without first having any evidence to back it up. You speak as if it's a documented fact that he is trying to negotiate a deal with the Chinese when actually all you are doing is guessing just like I am. The difference is that for now I am giving him the benefit of the doubt which I feel all people deserve.

[geek tragedy]

134. "tried to make a career in China using his computer skills"

So, NSA computer expert defects to China, expects to make money using his computer expertise, and you don't suspect he'll be sharing what he learned at the NSA?

[totodeinhere]

135. Like I said, for now I am willing to give him the benefit of the

doubt lacking any evidence to the contrary. And why do you seem to want to make one of the worst possible interpretations of his motives?

[geek tragedy]

136. People who style themselves freedom warriors and then set up shop

in China have credibility issues.

Kind of like someone saying they want to fight global poverty and then becoming a bond trader at Goldman Sachs.

[Dr Fate]

128. I'm just glad Obama is spying on us AND China.

At least we are not the only ones who need it.