West arming Syrian rebels who eat human flesh,Vladimir Putin says
Source: Reuters, Times of India
Russian President Vladimir Putin, arriving in Britain ahead of an international summit set to be dominated by disagreement over the US decision to send weapons to Syria's rebels, said the West must not arm fighters who eat human flesh.
<snip>
"One does not really need to support the people who not only kill their enemies, but open up their bodies, eat their intestines in front of the public and cameras," Putin said.
"Are these the people you want to support? Are they the ones you want to supply with weapons? Then this probably has little relation to the humanitarian values preached in Europe for hundreds of years."
The incident Putin referred to was most likely that of a rebel commander filmed last month cutting into the torso of a dead soldier and biting into a piece of one of his organs.
<snip>
Read more: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/West-arming-Syrian-rebels-who-eat-human-fleshVladimir-Putin-says/articleshow/20622563.cms
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)Humanitarian values like this?
more
flamingdem
(39,312 posts)that the US going into Syria is a baaad idea - flesh eaters or not!
newfie11
(8,159 posts)This is a very bad idea.
MADem
(135,425 posts)do the heavy lifting, that's fine with him. OTOH, the bulk of the Arab world doesn't want to see the non-Arab Persians holding more sway in the region than they already have. And even the non-Arab Turks are feeling that, as well--they don't think Iran needs to be a heavy hitter in the area.
I don't think the US should "go into" Syria, either. There are ways to assist them that don't involve a single, solitary "boot on the ground."
MADem
(135,425 posts)acts like everyone's doing it. It wasn't just any old organ, either, it was a heart.
Good old Pootie Poot, look into his soul, is backing the team that uses chemical weapons...so there's that.
flamingdem
(39,312 posts)It's beyond me why we'd enter into this Civil war.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Which is why Morsi has called for a no-fly zone (yes, Morsi), and Jordan has offered up tarmac space.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)What about Qatar's interference?
The only reason there is a two-year-old civil war in Syria is because the Saudis and the Qataris paid for it. Otherwise, it probably would have petered out 80,000 deaths or so ago.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Saudi receipts, plane tickets, lists.passports. Lots of garbage and papers left behind, French TV showed it live..Saudi papers.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Not to be backing either side, but I think the claim of chemical weapons is suspect, considering how much digital footage of everything else from this war already exists online.
MADem
(135,425 posts)and film, what? People coughing and running? Maybe there is footage, but it just doesn't translate well. There's no footage of Saddam in the act of using chemical weapons but we know he used them.
There are, from what I understand, blood samples.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)1) People die in the other videos.
2) The weapons that disperse these chemicals are very visibly distinct from great distance
3) How many cell phone cameras existed in the 80's during the Iran-Iraq war?
MADem
(135,425 posts)show people whose job it is to train those to protect themselves against Chemical/Biological/Radiological attack. It's not recent, and it's not apropos of anything happening in Syria. There are many ways to deploy chemical weapons--great big clouds of stuff is one way to go, but there are other methodologies that are more targeted. One can use missiles, one can use aircraft, and one can use little stinger-type launchers to deliver the stuff. You won't always see it before it gets to you, and by then, it's too late unless you are suited up.
Do you have videos--that aren't by, say Saddam Hussein's RGs--that show people videoing themselves as they run away?
I haven't seen anything like that. I've seen photographs of dead bodies in the aftermath of a gassing (Halabja, particularly), but I haven't seen any victim-centric video.
And as for the blood tests, we weren't the first ones to do them--UK and France were.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/syria-chemical-weapons-us-confirm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/04/syria-nerve-agent-sarin-uk-france
The British and French governments have said that medical samples smuggled out of Syria have tested positive for the nerve agent sarin, and added that they have shown the evidence to a UN investigation.
The Foreign Office confirmed that body fluids collected from victims of one or more attacks in the country were found to contain a chemical fingerprint of sarin at the Ministry of Defence's Porton Down facility in Wiltshire. In Paris, the French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, said he had passed similar evidence to the head of the UN inquiry into chemical weapon use in Syria, Ake Sellström.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)"Do you have videos--that aren't by, say Saddam Hussein's RGs--that show people videoing themselves as they run away? "
Not sure what you are getting at about Saddam Hussein's RGs, that is just a bad example because that was 30 years ago and nobody had cell cams and even regular still photo cameras were extremely rare among civilians. Even still, journalists arrived after the fact and shot still images of the victims, which showed no visible wounds. We haven't even seen that much in Syria.
Yes there are videos coming out of Syria from both sides and from the perspectives of both attackers and the attacked. As they fight, as they run. Even as they are in conversation and get unexpectedly ambushed. This is the digital age.
As for the 'reports' ahem... babies tossed out of incubators, aluminum tubes, yellow cake ect. I'll wait until I see what is refereed to, in journalism, as a primary source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source
MADem
(135,425 posts)And the "babies out of incubators" thing was a GHWB concept.
I do believe that Saddam's RGs DID film their exploits. I've seen plenty of film on the Iran Iraq war, and it would not surprise me if there is film of those attacks. The point I am making is that there doesn't have to be a great big cloud, coming at you from miles away, high and wide, to poison people. It can be a much more intimate process. Many chemical weapons are invisible.
Look at the order that this situation was revealed, here. It was the socialist French, followed by the UK, who first raised the alarm about this--NOT the USA.
The USA has been dragging their feet on getting involved in Syria--which is why they didn't just say "Oh, OK, French, we'll take your word for it."
The USA, in fact, didn't take the French word, or the British word--they went and got their own samples. And, boom goes the dynamite, three times the charm.
Look, even Morsi of Egypt--the Muslim Brotherhood leader and hardly Obama's "BFF"--is calling for a no-fly zone. So's Jordan (and the young king has had his differences with USA, so it's not like they're touting "our" POV). You know the Saudis want this shit rolled up as quickly as possible. This is a proxy war, and it's an Arab - Iranian one, with Sunni-Shi'a overtones. The Arabs are quite annoyed with Assad for coloring outside the lines, and they just aren't having it. Even the non-Arab Turks, who have managed to make friends in the area from their perch above the fray, aren't having this without complaint--after all, they end up with the refugees and the hassle, and wars have a way of spilling over borders.
Arabs like stability, more than anything, and they like countries that have strong leadership, consensus-based problem solving (even if the consensus is amongst elites) and few surprises. Basher is no Hafiz al-Assad; his father knew how to play the carrot/stick game AND keep his Arab neighbors in his corner, but the son has absolutely no clue, and has lacked one for a long time. Plus, he's ruthless. He makes his dad look like a pussycat.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Then be my guest. There is a reason the people who called BS on the aforementioned lies were correct. It wasn't because they guessed right on a 50/50 shot true or false. They looked at the facts available and made the smart decision.
Here is a site that keeps up with the videos.
http://bachlab.balbach.net/syrian-videos.html
MADem
(135,425 posts)I heard rumors of this back in the fall of last year, and I think February or March at the latest is when the French jumped on it. It's June now.
I'd hardly say that Obama was leaping through his own asshole to Quick Like A Bunny hand weapons to the insurgents. I think if anything, he's been dragging his feet. And that's fine--I would rather he vet twice, commit once than the other way around.
Some of those videos are very interesting--thank you for those links; I've just started looking at them, and the chem ones I have seen thus far are mostly shots of victims. I don't think they're using sarin, though--I think they are using something that causes serious respiratory distress and in some cases death, but I think it's something other than sarin in the videos of medical treatment. What that might be, I don't know.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Any of the gases have to be concentrated on a target to be effective. Thus, when I was taught Chemical Warfare in the 1980s, we were told to look to Artillery or bombs impacting closer together then normal. The reason for the this was to keep the concentration up on the target.
Concentration can be achieved three ways, 1 by concentrated Artillery and/or Mortar fire.
2. Massive Air Attack
3. Canister attack that floats over the enemies position.
#3 was used in WWI, first by the German to support an offensive, then by the allies when in the offensive. The problem is you need to make sure the wind is blowing the way you want the Chemicals to go. In case of the First German Use of this method, they had to wait for weeks for the winds generally flow in France flows West to East. The Germans being east of the Allies had to wait several weeks till the wind blew East to West and launched their attack. It was successful, but the allies quickly copied the idea and given the prevailing wind used it effectively for the remaining of WWI. The problem of having to wait for the right wind remained and that to get the concentration needed you had to pump a lot of chemicals, and that could only be done using huge pumps and tubes. Not done since WWI for it failed to be useful during the 1918 Offensive for troops were moving further then the chemicals would go and stay concentrated.
Thus, since WWI, the preferred ways to deliver Chemical Weapons has been artillery and airplanes. They both have the advantage of bring able to drop the chemicals right on the target, but in much smaller amounts then the use of pumps and tubes. Thus massive amounts of shells and bombs were needed to do a chemical attacks. When the Germans first looked at chemicals they quickly saw that concentration was so important that they had to inform their artillery to fire shells closer together then if the artillery were firing regular high explosive shells. This knowledge was spread to Airplanes and they became an important way to spread Chemicals after WWI (Airplanes were used in WWI to spread chemicals, but it was minor compared to artillery, the planes were to small to carry enough).
Thus you have to have concentration and given the fire capacity of Syria, it does NOT sound like they have the ability to concentrate fire enough to do an effective gas attack. Syria has sufficient artillery, mortars and planes, but I doubt they can concentrate them enough to do an effective chemical attack.
2. High Explosives are more effective about 95% of the time:
Scientific American did a paper on Chemical Warfare in the 1980s. One of the findings it found was that in most situations high explosives would cause more casualties then Chemical Weapons. You also have to remember, the chemical attack must be more effective then the same delivery system dropping high explosives. Given that the Rebels are mostly light Infantry, the Syrian Army may just prefer to drop high explosive shells on them, for high explosives are just more effective. This was the main reason no one used Chemical Weapons in WWII, given their experiences from WWI, except in two cases (both explained below) it was considered more effective to drop high explosives shells then Chemical Shells. Studies have shown that if troops have gas masks on them (Not wearing them, just have the masks on the soldier's equipment belt) in something like 95% of the time, High Explosives would do more injuries then Chemical weapons. In the remaining 5% they are about even, thus why use Chemicals?
3. Chemical Weapons is best if used in the Offensive
Furthermore, until the last month or so, the Syrian Government was on the Defensive. Gas is NOT considered a good weapon from a defensive point of view. People who are attacking tended to concentrate on one point, push through and beyond. Thus where do you drop the chemical? Japan studies this and in they defensive plans for the Home Islands if the US had to invade the Islands in November 1945, strict orders were issued NOT to use any Chemical Weapons even if the Americans did. Japan was going to fight a defensive war, and chemicals are of limited help on defense.
On offensive operations, Chemical can be handy. You force defenders into their Chemical Suits, the Chemicals, being heavier then normal air, creeps into dugouts, foxholes and trenches, all defensive positions. Thus when you are on the attack dumping chemicals on a target and then moving in is the ideal use of Chemicals. This was the German Plans for Leningrad in 1942, it had been surrounded in 1941 but held out. A Chemical Attack, using nerve gas, which the Germans had invented, was planned, the shells sent to the Front and it would have lead to the quick gassing of the Defenders and the fall of Leningrad. All the Germans Needed was Hitler's orders to launch the attack, an order Hitler never issued,
Churchill had planned to use Gas on any German land invasion of Britain, through it appears this was ordered without consideration of his generals (who basically opposed the plan). The US planned not only to drop four more atomic bombs on Japan In November 1945 but to gas Tokyo and other Japanese Cities. This was to knock out as many defenders as possible as US Troops hit the beeches of Japan. The Invasion plan on Japan was simple, after the above Atomic and Gas Attacks, invade the southern most main island, but only occupy the bottom 1/3, the US planned to bomb the rest of the island and then use the island as a base to invade the Main Japanese Island In March 1946. Since neither the US nor Japan had signed the treaty against using Gas in Warfare, we planned to do so when it came to Japan.
More recently, in the Iraq-Iran war, Iraq's use of Chemical weapons was completely ineffective except against the Kurds who rose up in revolt during the war and were hit with Chemicals as a result when Saddam decided to move against them (again in an offensive operation). Now some reports state that Iran agreed to end the war when Saddam threatened to use chemical weapons against Iranian Cities (i.e. kill all of the Civilians in such cities). The problem with this threat is that Iraq did NOT have enough Missiles and planes to carry out such an attack. At the same time, Iraq had been permitted to import in a massive number of new tanks, mostly T-72s, while the US maintain the arms embargo against Iran. Thus by 1988, Iraq had over 1000 tanks, facing less then 200 Iranian tanks (and many of these were captured ex-Iraqi T-54s, called by Israeli Defense force, the easiest tank to maintain and repair). Iran had re-captured all of its former territory, but it was clear the West was NOT going to leave Iran defeat Iraq. Iran had shown it could fight Iraq to a standstill while it was being forbidden to get new parts for its planes and tanks, while Iraq had full access to new planes (and pilots) and tanks. Thus the threat of Chemical Warfare had no effect on the decision of the Iranians. Instead Iran saw itself in a hopeless situation. It could NOT defeat Iraq, the West would not permit it to, but it could defeat any Iraqi attack on Iran. Thus Iran either had to agree to a cease fire or continue the war with no possibility of anything to gain. Iran agreed to a Cease fire and the war ended.
Now, Chemical Weapons have been used successfully against Natives and other troops who did not have any knowledge on how to deal with Chemical Weapons, but again only when the user of chemicals were Attacking the Native or other troops NOT as the user of chemicals were defending against an attack from the Natives or other troops not prepared for chemical warfare.
4. For the above reasons, I doubt Syria has used Chemical Weapons:
Sorry, I have not seen a situation where chemical weapons would have been advantageous to the Syrians to use. The Syrians, until recently, were on the defensive not the offensive. Furthermore Syria appears never to have had the needed artillery or air power to provide the needed concentration. Now Syria has enough of both on paper, the real question can they concentrate them to use in a chemical attack. Given the nature of the war, I have not seen such concentration for it defeats the need of ground forces to have artillery near by for fire support, and this war is all over Syria just not in any one location.
Sorry, I just do not believe that Syria is so dumb as to use Chemical Weapons. It makes no sense for them to do so,
MADem
(135,425 posts)I mean, from a humanitarian POV, one is too many, but we're talking a hundred or two, not thousands.
I never thought al Assad would be so stupid as to invite Iran in to help him fight his little war, either, but he's not Hafiz, that's for certain.
Saddam's use of chemical weapons against the Kurds was more of a demonstration of principle; to see if it could be done. We don't know if that's what Government of Syria is doing as well.
That region doesn't worry too much about the Geneva Conventions, and standards are different. Kidnapping is considered merciful and preferable to outright murder; it's often seen as a way to persuade someone to your POV. Chemical weapons are seen as an ace in the hole, otherwise governments wouldn't continue to stockpile them. And Syria by all accounts has plenty:
http://www.channel4.com/news/syria-chemical-weapons-damascus-assad-interactive-files
The only question remaining is have they used them in this most recent imbroglio, or are they, instead, creating a climate of fear by using tear gas or something that causes distress but is less lethal, instead?
KansDem
(28,498 posts)Make that "five nitwits"
MADem
(135,425 posts)That's disrespect, certainly, but that's not desecration.
This isn't a garden party. This is war in all its brutality and inappropriateness.
The heart munching is a new one on me, that's especially graphic, but this notion that the paradigm is that people behave in "honorable" ways on the field of battle pretty much died after WW1. There won't be any Christmas truces and shared meals across no man's land in conflicts in this era. People are mean, nasty, driven and partisan. They want to win. They want to motivate their juniors to perceive their opponents as "less than" in order to incite them to further battlefield successes. Enemies are actual enemies, not people who have a difference of opinion.
It is what it is.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Was war really more 'honorable' back then? Or was it just because we did not have the means to record it all? With everyone having video recording technology these days, the brutality of war has become more visible.
MADem
(135,425 posts)was a time when it was considered cowardly to fight like Americans (hide, and don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes) and there were many examples recorded of gentlemanly conduct during WW1 (mostly because neither side particularly wanted to be there).
I do agree with you that video enables more "gotcha" moments these days. First person descriptions don't pack the same punch as a visual, in any event.
Peeing on the enemy is certainly not something that was invented in Iraq or Afghanistan. Nor was chopping someone open and going for their heart (and missing and grabbing a lung instead, apparently). It's just that we haven't seen the latter recently...!
A discussion on the subject, from the instructive folks at DISCOVERY: http://news.discovery.com/history/eating-the-enemy-130514.htm
I'll bet they don't serve much heart or liver in prison...!
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)heart like in that iteration.
I guess that fellow flunked anatomy. I'm betting his immediate audience didn't notice.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)quadrature
(2,049 posts)well known to be an ongoing problem
in the Royal Navy
Socal31
(2,484 posts)I will just take your word for it, and immediately support arming Jihadists with weaponry that will one day be used to kill friendlies.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)...seems to happen most to lost antarctic expeditions though, like the Greely Expedition.
Throckmorton
(3,579 posts)Beside, they mostly have that problem under control.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)...who now suffer the largest casualties in this area.
Clouseau2
(60 posts)There is no cannibalism in the British navy, absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount.
Catherina
(35,568 posts)John2
(2,730 posts)in his speech sounded like Tony Blair years ago. He is a real conservative though. I think what we have is Obama being the moderate Democrat like Blair and Cameron more like Bush the real conservative. They both have an appearance of arrogance, demanding another country's leader must go, just like with Saddam. I don't know where these men get that authority?
Syria has not attacked them but they are using human rights as an excuse in a civil war, that includes foreigners. Blair also made the claim about weapons of WMD. I don't like rightwingers, because they think they must have some kinda divine right of authority over everybodyelse. I think they are the people that needs to go. Britain made a mistake putting this guy in power. He already bought them austerity. Cameron is probably lying out his teeth, just like Blair did.
flamingdem
(39,312 posts)and terrifying.
What's Israel up to with all of this??
John2
(2,730 posts)having second thoughts, but they are more worried about Iran. They still can't trust Morsi and the extremists. If it was up to Israel, they would probably get rid of them all. Especially their rightwingers.
MADem
(135,425 posts)WRT this issue.
Morsi wants a no-fly zone. Jordan has offered up tarmac space. The US is leaving aircraft in Jordan following a mil-to-mil exercise.
Poll_Blind
(23,864 posts)PB
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)with the Nazi, starved the Ukrainians, decimated their own people for ideological reasons, ran gulags and supported some of the most horrific, brutal and despotic regimes last century (North Korea, Romania, Yugoslavia, even Maoist China until 1956).
Putin, you're a second tier leader in a third tier country. When you can control you lawless and organized crime instead of signing laws outlawing gay rights speech, we'll listen. Until then, STFU, former KGB asshole.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)at the cost of about 20 million of their lives.
NickB79
(19,233 posts)So long as the Nazis played by the rules, they had no problem working with them knowing full-well their despotic methods.
John2
(2,730 posts)to what? They have the largest stock pile of nuclear weapons in the World. If they really wanted to, they can eliminate a lot of countries. They have veto power for a reason. I rather for the neocons and Cameron to STFU, rightwing assholes. See now, it doesn't take a genious to stoop to the level of insults. I don't think we achieved anything?
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)Ms. Putin, is that you?
John2
(2,730 posts)I know how to capitalize the first letter of a sentence.
Nanjing to Seoul
(2,088 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)The US could have bombed the rail junctions leading to the Concentration Camps but explicitly declined to do so.
We're no angels - nor are the Russians. BTW- Bush, Sr. is also an old spook, as are a number of ranking politicians in the U.S. Gov't. There is nothing uniquely evil or virtuous about either side.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)experience with flesh-eaters.
Heck, it's the JP Morgan-Chase motto "Ya gotta have heart. And liver, and kidneys..."
I was trying to think back, and for the life of me I can't remember a time when something like what is being proposed worked out for the best. Afghanistan comes to mind.
Or is this just an excuse to prove we can fight Russia without either of us getting our pants dirty?
Renew Deal
(81,852 posts)flamingdem
(39,312 posts)Cannibalism brings out the best in DU!
John2
(2,730 posts)or Sandwind. We are just getting started.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)We are merely supplying forks, knives and A1.
flamingdem
(39,312 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)so it's all good.
But if someone we don't like eats an especially intelligent snail, by god, we have to invade and kill a million people.
John2
(2,730 posts)cannibals, not ours. I don't like rightwingers. I'm on Putin's side.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)rastaone
(57 posts)supported the 20+ yr Ugandan dictator in his fight against the rebel and now we are supporting the rebel fight against a 10yr dictator? No UN resolution for force the murderous dictator in Uganda to step down, in fact we sent in trainers weapons and foreign aid to help his country survive. Talk about double standards
ForeignandDomestic
(190 posts)You didn't know the US has no problems with Dictators if the oppression of their people is beneficial to American corporate interest, It's only after they stop taking the marching orders from the West that we want to spread "democracy".