Breaking: U.S. Charges Snowden with Espionage

[Hissyspit]

Source: Washington Post

U.S. charges Snowden with espionage

By Peter Finn and Sari Horwitz, Published: FRIDAY, JUNE 21, 6:04 PM ET

Federal prosecutors have filed a sealed criminal complaint against Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who leaked a trove of documents about top-secret surveillance programs, and the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant, according to U.S. officials.

Snowden was charged with espionage, theft and conversion of government property, the officials said.

The complaint was filed in the Eastern District of Virginia, a jurisdiction where Snowden’s former employer, Booz Allen Hamilton, is headquartered, and a district with a long track record in prosecuting cases with national security implications.

A Justice Department spokeswoman declined to comment.

Read more: http:/www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-charges-snowden-with-espionage/2013/06/21/507497d8-dab1-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html

---

Friday afternoon dump.

@BreakingNews: More: US asks Hong Kong to detain NSA leaker Edward Snowden on provisional arrest warrant - @washingtonpost http://t.co/dEvGFJcmKK

[Catherina]

1. How do you always manage? Beat me to it I mean? Rec'd

I'll take these charges seriously after Bush, Cheney, and their criminal pals are behind bars for real treason.

Waking up an asleep America about sliding into totalitarianism is not treason.

[blkmusclmachine]

16. +1.

[JimDandy]

77. Not charged with treason, but espionage.

Snowden did a great service to America. Laws need to be changed to allow whistle-blower status for contractors, especially if more and more govt services and programs are going to be privatized. The NSA was idiotic to have allowed National Security functions to be privatized so really all the negative fall out of this is on them.

As for me, I am extremely grateful for the proof Snowden provided that the NSA has been seizing ALL American's communication data.

[Catherina]

80. You be right! With the sliver of the devil's hairstrand.

I'm grateful too. And very grateful to Bradley Manning too who's all but ignored right now but a very important pivot in this whole battle He won;t be forgotten.

[pnwmom]

120. He hasn't provided any proof that the NSA has "been seizing ALL American's communication data."

What he's done is provoke much-needed debate about the collection of meta-data of US phone calls that was authorized under the Patriot Act.

I'm not grateful for the further releases about spying on China that he's been making to the Chinese newspapers.

[Cali_Democrat]

2. Seems like an open and shut case

Snowden even admits he leaked the docs.

So I guess this means the US will now make an extradition request to Hong Kong. If Hong Kong refuses.....sanctions against Hong Kong?

This could get interesting.

[Hissyspit]

3. Good thing we brought torturers to such swift justice.

This is a farce.

[Cali_Democrat]

6. No...it's not a good thing. They should have been brought to justice

But just because some criminals get off, it doesn't mean all criminals should get off.

At least that's how I see it.

[Hissyspit]

13. Of course you do.

Pick and choose who gets it and who doesn't.

It's a farce.

[Cali_Democrat]

28. I don't want to fight with you

All I'm saying is that the torturers broke the law....they should have been prosecuted. Snowden broke the law, he too should be prosecuted.

[Hissyspit]

35. Maybe he didn't break the law.

Maybe the law is immoral.

"@apblake: Drake, Kim, Kiriakou, Leibowitz, Manning, Sterling and Snowden."

[Shivering Jemmy]

59. That makes no sense

Whether a law is immoral or not its still a law and can be broken.

[Hissyspit]

63. They were two separate statements.

[JW2020]

4. Disclosing classified information doesn't = espionage.

[Cali_Democrat]

7. This is a sealed criminal complaint. So I don't know what they charged him with, but...

my guess is this:

Title 18, United States Code Section 793(d)


(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control
over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book,
signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint,
plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the
national defense, or information relating to the national defense
which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used
to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any
foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or
causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to
communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated,
delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to
receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it
on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled
to receive it;

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/uscode/18/I/37/793

In cases deemed relevant to national security, it certainly can be considered espionage.

[Hissyspit]

14. Sealed complaint.

[Cali_Democrat]

32. Correct

The indictment will also be sealed. Pretty common in these cases actually.

[Hissyspit]

45. I know that.

[Cali_Democrat]

47. Cool

[Cali_Democrat]

69. I WAS RIGHT!!! It is United States Code Section 793(d)

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/716865-snowden-complaint.html

Damn I'm good.

[Martak Sarno]

51. Semantics?

"...which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used
to the injury of the United States..."

Maybe he didn't think this information could be used to cause injury to the U.S.

Our presidents, current one included, twist English speeches to mean one thing while saying another.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Our plan in Iraq is working - G.W. Bush

What plan exactly was that?

[Cali_Democrat]

71. See here --->>>

They will charge him with exactly what I thought they would charge him with:

United States Code Section 793(d)

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/716865-snowden-complaint.html

[cstanleytech]

26. Depends what he disclosed and to who. nt

[JW2020]

30. Incorrect

Snowden disclosed this info to the American people. Espionage is disclosing secrets to foreign governments for financial or ideological reasons.

[dkf]

34. I guess the American public is the enemy who is now in possession of these secrets.

Sad sad sad.

[villager]

41. I'm sure the blanket "detention" warrants will be coming for the general populace

...at the first signs of sustained, prolonged unrest...

[fasttense]

98. Exactly right

The American people are the enemy of the corporate state.

[cstanleytech]

37. No, you are incorrect as it actually does depend or are you saying its ok if he disclosed to China

classified details on what if any computer systems the US managed to hack in China?

[Th1onein]

58. LOL. That's propaganda. Disclosed to China? Yeah, right.

[Galraedia]

79. Snowden turned over documents to the South China Morning Post...

revealing that the United States has been hacking into Chinese computers. Snowden also leaked documents showing that in 2009 the United States intercepted communications from then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

[Th1onein]

105. Has he admitted to this, or is it just a charge?

The reason I ask is this: We have been LIED to so often by our own leaders, we can no longer believe anything that they say.

And, let's just, for kicks, say that it IS true--is it okay for the US to hack into Chinese computers? If the Chinese did that to us, would it be okay? Are we fighting a war on terror with the Chinese? Then WHY hack into their computers. Does the right to privacy, one of the rights that are supposed to be inalienable to all people, only extend to Americans? I think not.

[cynzke]

124. I believe

the info came from a Hong Kong newspaper. The Chinese do hack our computers and they have admitted they do. And whether we approve or disapprove of the US spying on China, it has no legal baring on charges of espionage. If you share classified documents with a foreign government that is considered espionage no matter if you think the US was wrong.

[cstanleytech]

81. How..............interesting.

"are you saying its ok if he"

[William Seger]

94. "to any person not entitled to receive it"

... in the statute that Cali_Democrat posted.

[bhikkhu]

114. Disclosing to "the American People" isn't really protected

unless you have a reasonable expectation that the American people won't tell anyone...

But really he disclosed to journalists for the purpose of disclosing it to everyone. Not to say whether he was right or wrong to do so, but I can't imagine a judge saying it was okay to publish classified information on those terms, just because the intended audience wasn't "foreign governments".

[JW2020]

115. It may not be protected but it isn't espionage

[bhikkhu]

116. Its ten years in jail, whatever term one wants to use

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798

[cynzke]

122. Well that's the gist of this!

What we don't know as yet. Part and particle to the disclosures, we've read that Snowden has classified documents and/or computer records in his possession. Has Snowden actually shared copies of those documents with China and/or other foreign governments? We know for certain, he told a Chinese newspaper in Hong Kong, that the US has spied on China. Does that not fit the definition of espionage?

[Cali_Democrat]

70. Yep. They did get him with United States Code Section 793(d)

Just saw this:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/716865-snowden-complaint.html

Maybe I should have been a lawyer

[Tx4obama]

92. He did much more than 'disclose' information. He STOLE classified government documents. n/t

[askeptic]

104. B-S! Nothing learned they didn't already know - hardly a secret

From the Guardian's Glen Greenwald:
...
The Terrorists already knew, and have long known, that the US government is doing everything possible to surveil their telephonic and internet communications. The Chinese have long known, and have repeatedly said, that the US is hacking into both their governmental and civilian systems (just as the Chinese are doing to the US). The Russians have long known that the US and UK try to intercept the conversations of their leaders just as the Russians do to the US and the UK.

They haven't learned anything from these disclosures that they didn't already well know. The people who have learned things they didn't already know are American citizens who have no connection to terrorism or foreign intelligence, as well as hundreds of millions of citizens around the world about whom the same is true. What they have learned is that the vast bulk of this surveillance apparatus is directed not at the Chinese or Russian governments or the Terrorists, but at them.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/22/snowden-espionage-charges

[Tx4obama]

117. Considering Snowden stole over 1,000 classified documents...

... YOU don't know what information he has since he is still sitting on the majority of it.


The complaint file in Court was also regarding his THEFT.

18 USC 641 Theft of property and records

18 USC 793 Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

18 USC 798 Disclosure of classified information

[cynzke]

125. So What!

Does that have any legal bearing whether or not espionage charges are made. None. An opinion is not a legal defense. What Russia and China know has no bearing. If you have in your possession classified documentation you share with a foreign government that is considered an act of espionage. We are not talking about info Snowden revealed to Glen Greenwald or other reporters. We are talking about having possession of classified documents and the physical release of them to a foreign government. If Snowden actually did that and it can be proven, then he deserved to be charged.

[leveymg]

5. If the US puts overt pressure on HK, Snowden will simply take the ferry to the Mainland.

He'll never see the inside of a jail cell. Everyone knows that.

[BlueStater]

9. Serves us right then.

Our justice system is a joke. Bush and Cheney deserve to be in prison a billion times more than this guy does.

[leveymg]

12. I'm sure that's how most of the world sees this. Falling Empire Follies.

Last edited Fri Jun 21, 2013, 07:35 PM - Edit history (1)

[pnwmom]

19. Of course he will. Because he's already said that he could never live in a country

without civil liberties. And China is so much freer than the U.S.

[leveymg]

33. The irony isn't lost on anyone. eom

[East Coast Pirate]

76. He'll be treated well I expect.

[rsmith6621]

31. Better buy my camera quick...

.. and a few othe Ebay items.

[Galraedia]

8. He should've quit while he was ahead.

There was no reason for him to leak information about the United States hacking China or that the United States and our ally Great Britain intercepted communications from then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

[Life Long Dem]

10. Surprise surprise

He's a spy.

[Hissyspit]

20. Being charged doesn't mean you are guilty of something.

Unfamiliar with the concept?

[Life Long Dem]

39. Then he should have no problem turning himself in

If he is innocent.

[Hissyspit]

42. Or maybe he's not an idiot.

And has seen what has been done to the other whistleblowers.

He should have joined the CIA and become a torturer and kept his mouth shut. He could be making bucks on the lecture circuit now.

[totodeinhere]

56. He might not want to turn himself in because he is afraid he will not get a fair

trial. And that fear would be justified.

[Life Long Dem]

61. Innocent until proven guilty

Snowden said "The government "immediately and predictably destroyed any possibility of a fair trial at home," by labeling him a traitor".

Labeling someone a traitor is not a guilty verdict.

[totodeinhere]

64. Do you really believe that "innocent until proven guilty" would be applied to him?

And for that matter he would most likely be submitted to inhumane treatment as Bradley Manning has. I would not blame him one bit if he doesn't want to return to this country to face abuse and a kangaroo court.

[Life Long Dem]

66. With the world watching?

He included the world in this and they are watching. I know what your saying though. If I was in his situation, to tell you the truth, I'd need to know exactly what evidence they had on me and go from there. If it looked any bit like they fabricated some evidence I'd probably hold back from returning home.

But do they need to fabricate evidence in Snowden's case?

18 U.S.C. 798(a)(3)

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/716865-snowden-complaint.html

[totodeinhere]

72. The world is watching Bradley Manning too but that hasn't stopped his abuse.

And the world was watching when the Cheney outed Valerie Plame and got away with it scot free. I don't think that having the world watching is much of a guarantee of fair treatment in this case. Besides most of the abuse would probably happen behind closed doors and would be officially denied.

[markpkessinger]

62. Because in the American Justice system, only the truly guilty are ever convicted?

Is that seriously what you are suggesting?

[Life Long Dem]

65. Most of the time yes

Most of the time the guilty are found guilty. Sometimes things don't work out that way, but that is the justice system we have. As many guilty are found innocent as well.

[blkmusclmachine]

22. The sheeple must NOT be informed.

[dkf]

36. I guess he is my spy then. Sad.

[Buzz Clik]

11. Cue the exploding heads in 4 ... 3... 2... 1

[Hissyspit]

17. Why?

Who didn 't think this wouldn't happen?

[Buzz Clik]

24. Cancel the exploding heads!

[Tx4obama]

38. My guess had been that he would be charged with espionage

June 10th

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/1017124294#post2

[Hissyspit]

44. Again...

Who didn't think this would happen?

I know people argued it shouldn't happen.

[Tx4obama]

48. I think perhaps some folks expected the Obama admin to ignore the law like the Bush admin did

and I for one am glad that Obama isn't.

[Hissyspit]

50. They could have just moved forward.

Like with the torturers.

[frylock]

57. oh snap!

:bravo:

[Ash_F]

95. I wish you could rec posts on this forum. /nt

[blkmusclmachine]

15. Traitor to some. Hero to others.

[PatrynXX]

21. Yeah Hero to China

Villain to Tibet

[NoodleyAppendage]

87. I wonder if you have reflected why you are so reflexively "o.k." with your 4th Amendment Rights...

...being sh*t upon by your government? Is it because the President is Democratic? How would you feel if the President were Romney?

J

[cantbeserious]

68. Yes - He Did Us All A Favor By Unmasking The Surveillance State In Such A Public Manner - Kudos

eom

[snappyturtle]

82. +1

[PatrynXX]

18. Bout time....

Now when are we bringing espionage charges against Dick Cheney for leaking Valerie's name??

[blkmusclmachine]

23. Nope. BushCo is Too Big To Jail.

[blkmusclmachine]

25. Friday night news dump. That's pretty slick of Obama.

[villager]

40. All part of Hope & Change, and not being like his predecessor!

[Tx4obama]

93. Actually the complaint was filed with the Court a week ago on June 14th.

And this has nothing to do with President Obama.

He was not the one that filed the complaint and he was not the one that told the press that the complaint had been filed.

[carolinayellowdog]

27. likely to be regarded as a hero by our allies since his "espionage" benefited them

which means there will be tremendous international attention to this case, and supportive editorials around the world

[Tx4obama]

29. Article excerpt from yesterday, below

Scenarios for Snowden: Escape, arrest, asylum

-snip-

Scenario 5: U.S. issues an arrest warrant and he's detained

This could be the worst case scenario for Snowden. If the U.S. issues a surrender warrant*, Snowden could be detained by authorities in Hong Kong, after first being given the go-ahead by the territory's chief executive to arrest him.

Once detained, Young said Snowden would likely appear in an open court where a magistrate would decide whether there is enough evidence to commit him to trial.

Based on that decision, Hong Kong's chief executive would then decide whether to approve the surrender order and send Snowden back to the U.S.

Under Hong Kong law, the surrender order could be blocked if it appears that the offense is of a political nature or if the alleged offender might be punished on the basis of his or her political opinions.

However, other considerations would be the 1996 treaty between the U.N. and Hong Kong which takes precedence over the relevant law and includes a clause on "offenses involving the unlawful use of computers," Young said.

-snip-

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/20/world/asia/snowden-scenarios-hong-kong/index.html

* = Done.

[railsback]

43. About freakin' time.

Now let's see if the dynamic duo of Greenwald/Snowden FINALLY release those giant bombshells they've been promising instead of all these duds.

[DCBob]

46. Seems appropriate to me.

considering what he did, not sure there was any other option.

[Hissyspit]

53. "Moving forward" is apparently an option.

[msongs]

49. meanwhile those who murder using drones go uncharged nt

[Tx4obama]

55. Implying that President Obama is a murderer is disgusting. n/t

[Logical]

67. Your alert failed. n-t

[Tx4obama]

74. I have not sent any alerts on any OPs or comments today, so...

... so I don't know what you're talking about.

[Logical]

75. OK, assumed you alerted the drone post. My bad. n-t

[Tx4obama]

84. Nope not me. A few months ago ...

A few months ago I alerted on someone that personally attacked me and the jury voted 0-6 to leave it.

So, what happened after the jury decision was that I ended up not being able to send any alerts for 24 hours - that sorta pissed me off since I normally send an alert on LBN 'dupes' before locking them (so the other LBN Hosts can see that the dupe was locked) - but being locked out from alerting for 24 hours screwed up my hosting duties.
After that I decided alerting on comments just isn't worth the hassle.

[Logical]

86. I think the new Jury System is a joke. I have....

had the same experience as you. Horrible posts that get allowed to stay. In the old days the Admins would have locked it immediately.

It is not a good system.

[totodeinhere]

118. Apparently the jury did not think that the posts were that horrible. Democracy can be messy

sometimes.

[xocet]

106. What is your euphemism for it? n/t

[leftyohiolib]

107. meanwhile those who out cia operative during war time get a pass

[MannyGoldstein]

52. Thank God. That's great news, I think.

It means he's not on the White House's secret kill list.

[totodeinhere]

54. I hope that someone comes forward and offers him asylum. Obviously if

he returns here he will not get a fair trial. That in an of itself should be sufficient basis for offering him asylum. If not Iceland then perhaps Ecuador could.

[Life Long Dem]

73. I don't think a fair trial will help him.

18 U.S.C. 798(a)(3)

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/716865-snowden-complaint.html

As long as what he leaked was classified.

[davidpdx]

96. I have no doubt he'll get asylum somewhere

People have shot their mouth off about how he's going to be hauled back to the US and tortured and convicted without any proof. It won't happen. What will happen is he will get a very quite asylum deal and someone will him help to get where ever he needs to. He'll live there for the rest of his life, but not able to travel anywhere without wondering if he's going to face extradition in the country he visits.

And the outraged will not be the least sorry that they were once again wrong....

[Sunlei]

60. now Americans will never know details, the case will be 'pending' for decades.

Edward Snowden should spill everything now, including if he totally got his ideas independent of any other people.

Because this will be the last time in his life the general public will hear his words.

[Fire Walk With Me]

78. But first they're going to finish jailing all of the corrupt Wall Streeters who nearly wrecked the

economy.

Haha, I kid.

[DJ13]

83. Well, no reason left not to dump everything he has into the public sphere at this point

[olddad56]

85. I thought he charged the US with espionage?

wasn't the government doing the spying? Are we back to the Bush Orwellian doublespeak days?

[carolinayellowdog]

99. it's legal when they do it

and we may be back to the Bush attitude toward Constitutional protections from it

[Major Hogwash]

88. Not surprised.

I don't know what took them so long.

[Psephos]

89. The biggest spies of all time are charging Snowden with spying. What else needs to be said? n/t

[alcibiades_mystery]

90. Anybody care to explain why he shouldn't be charged with espionage

Under the statute, I mean. I get how you don't "believe" "in principle" that he's a bad guy, and all that bullshit.

[Cali_Democrat]

91. Because he's Edward Fricken Snowden gawd dammit

and he's a fucking hero

[Hissyspit]

97. Care to explain why Dick Cheney shouldn't be charged?

And wasn't.

[alcibiades_mystery]

101. Dick Cheney should have been charged with numerous crimes

Including war crimes.

That's another thread, though.

[Hissyspit]

102. So the law shouldn't be applied equally?

I'm all for looking forward.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014515086

[hack89]

108. Do we end all valid criminal proceedings until Cheney is indicted? nt

[Hissyspit]

110. No, just the politically motivated ones.

[hack89]

111. Nothing politically motivated about going after Snowden

it is black and white - no president would stand for it. Nor should they.

[Hissyspit]

112. And no Democrats would fail to impeach Bush and Cheney for unconstitutional acts

and war crimes.

Everything is political, including the war on whidtleblowers.

[hack89]

113. Snowden is not a whistleblower

just like Manning, he had recourse to legal means to reveal his information.

[berni_mccoy]

126. That is the crux of the issue, isn't it.

Many here fail to acknowledge this point.

[I love weed]

100. He did nothing illegal.

The supreme law of the land is the Constitution, which clearly states that our government is to be of the People, for the People, and by the People. The government looming over us now is on the People, fornicating the People, and between the People.

The Constitution set up checks and balances between three independent branches of government as a safeguard against any branch or individuals or factions therein from gaining too much power over the People.

But what to do when the three branches of governemnt collude with each other and become corrupted? What happens when their "secret courts" (stacked with excellent federal judges!) make "secret rulings" under secret "congressional oversight" (for those few congress members who bother to attend the fake "briefings&quot ?

The checks and balances of the Constitution have been subverted. Now they can declare anything they do as "legal", but that does not make it so.

Further, the Constitution grants us UNAMBIGUOUS rights to FREE speech and FREEDOM from unreasonable search and seizure.

Speech that is recorded or tracked or analyzed or even under threat of those things is in NO WAY free. It is compromised speech restrained by fear and self-censorship.

Further, all of the Orwellian sounding "security" (their own security, not ours) programs being run by the many alphabet soup government agencies that are looming over, under, and around us can only be considered "reasonable" by the demented or evil.

And please do not be fooled by the endless R vs D show. They are all compromised (obviously) and will never challenge Big Power on your behalf. Think of them as rival factions in the same crime family. None of them will fight for your constitutional rights!

So what are We the People to do when the government clearly and blatantly shreds the Constitution and walks all over our rights? The government belongs to Us, for us.

This is why Edward Snowden is a hero and a patriot. He sounded an alarm for the sleeping People. The real treasonous criminals are many, including the likes of Bush, Cheney, Obama, Holder, Clapper, and on an on.

[cpwm17]

121. So true, Edward Snowden is exposing illegal spying against the American people

So what are We the People to do when the government clearly and blatantly shreds the Constitution and walks all over our rights? The government belongs to Us, for us.

This is why Edward Snowden is a hero and a patriot. He sounded an alarm for the sleeping People. The real treasonous criminals are many, including the likes of Bush, Cheney, Obama, Holder, Clapper, and on an on.

Well said.

[phleshdef]

123. He leaked classified information to foreign governments, so yes, he did.

Theres no way out of this. He is a criminal.

[totodeinhere]

119. He should not be charged by a corrupt system that will not afford him a fair trial.

If he returns he will probably be abused just like Bradley manning has been. Hong Kong should not extradite him because there is a strong chance that his human rights will be violated if he returns.

[Sancho]

103. All we've seen so far is part of a slide show, an interview, a court order, and naming programs..

maybe Snowden has LOTS MORE? Maybe he really has a list of spies, details of foreign snooping, or even stuff that Obama doesn't know the NSA was doing. I don't think we actually know how good a hacker Snowden was or how much information he took with him.

If he's in Hong Kong, Iceland, etc., there's a risk he could reveal much more embarrassing files.

I really wonder if Obama (and some members of Congress) don't actually know everything about the NSA/CIA programs and they've been lying to the President. Maybe Obama has to defend it so he won't appear to have lost control, but he may be finding out some details about the same time that the public does. The US has to do something, so they charged him, and there's still a chance he could return home with a minimal plea deal + no more releases...but if they go after him too hard, a bunch more could end up on Wikileaks or in the Guardian. I think Snowden really wants to reveal the spying programs exactly as he states.

[askeptic]

109. They may be trying to drive him into hiding so he'll shut up!

He continues to expose their wrongdoing as well as exposing the lies they told us to cover up their wrong-doing. They want him to shut the hell up.