Japan Unveils Biggest Warship Since WWII
Source: Voice of America
Japan has unveiled its biggest warship since the Second World War as part of a plan to bolster its defense of territorial claims in disputed waters.
Read more: http://www.voanews.com/content/japan-unveils-biggest-warship-since-ww2/1724301.html
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)It is a statement that they are a strong country, and not ( just ) a victim.
Good for you , Japan.
Kingofalldems
(38,427 posts)that Japan was any sort of victim. Unfreakingbelievable post.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I love Japan. My post was not meant to be in any way mean, and um sorry if you take it that way.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)No wonder we're not learning anything.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)SkyDaddy7
(6,045 posts)For anyone to sit here 75yrs later with ZERO responsibility & say either way what they would have done to end the war & try to save the most lives possible...ARROGANT!!
liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)It has more to do with you than you want to know.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)I obviously meant that I personally have no reason to feel guilty about the WW2 nuclear attacks.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)Or the comment like he one you responded to.
William769
(55,144 posts)Now if you want to talk millions, we'll discuss the Holocaust in Europe.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)A lot more peopel have died and continue to die due to the radiation effects in Hiroshima! Go look it up yourself if you don't believe me!
William769
(55,144 posts)If You pick this as a battle. Numbers don't lie.
Response to William769 (Reply #46)
Post removed
William769
(55,144 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)For the red cross. She never hated anyone. She didn't keep grudges.
Please don't question my grandparents, they are gone and have nothing to do with my stand on anything.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Holocaust Survivors, if they lived through their ordeal. It seems to me you might be diminishing their memory by exaggerating the number of fatalities due to the atomic bombs dropped on Japan.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Gawd!!!!!!!
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)with a reference to it that included a comparison of the atomic bomb victims in Japan to the German Holocaust victims, even if that, as it turns out, was not your intention.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)LeMay bombing leaflets.
We told them we were coming. We told them we would utterly destroy the city. A quarter of the city's population believed us and fled.
Less than a quarter million up front killed AND wounded. There is overlap between that number and the ~650,000 dead and living hibakusha, some of them did not have any radiation related injuries at all (majority, actually) and some of them are 'double' hibakusha, having survived the bombing of both cities.
So no, you torch your credibility when you claim 'millions'.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)A lot more people, than the holocaust? So now you are claiming in excess of 7 MILLION people from the bombing of those two cities?
Cite?
No place TO look it up, because that claim simply isn't true.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Perheps you should read the messages before you post nonsense!!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)A lot more peopel have died and continue to die due to the radiation effects in Hiroshima! Go look it up yourself if you don't believe me!"
Since your objection about MILLIONS plural has no connection to the bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, whose victims total about 600k including BOTH radiation illness, radiation related death, AS WELL AS conventional blast/heat/crush related death and injury, I can only assume that strange statement above was a reference to the Holocaust as specified in your subject line.
Perhaps you could be more clear or more accurate in the future.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I have never said the number of victims was higher! You should apologize for acusing me of made up crap!
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Your words are right there in front of you. You could edit your post to be more clear.
You could also go back and remove your ridiculous claim that MILLION(S) died from Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
(OR, if you think you can, you could support that claim with source/facts, if you honestly believe that claim is real)
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And of course you are not going to apologize. Your post was never well intended.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The Japanese Government maintains a memorial for them, and numbers/tracking. They know. Injuries AND deaths. Together.
You are being ridiculous about this.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)To even give them the proper mourning/memorial tribute.
Sickening.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You claimed MILLIONS, plural.
Leave inflation to the federal reserve. You're really bad at it.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)This is including those whose death is attributed to bomb related causes (radiation, burns, etc...) which may have occurred some time well after the bombings. My understanding is immediate death toll for the bombings and immediate aftermath was between 150k and 250k in total for both cities.
You're making some good points here, but because you're playing a little loose with the numbers it makes those points easier to attack.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)11 million victims of the German Holocaust. You went from a million to now 11 million Japanese who have died from the atomic bombs dropped on them 68 years ago?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)It wasn't me, it was Will.
Get your facts right before throwing up accusations!
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)holocaust victims. (At least have the respect to capitolize Holocaust.)
You then wrote:
"A lot more peopel (sic) have died and continue to die..."
You need to be more clear in your writing if in fact you did not intend to mean that more people died from the atomic bombs in Japan than the number of people who were victims of the German Holocaust. The word 'more' has a meaning and in the manner you used the word 'more' it is referencing your last sentence which referred to the Holocaust.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Like I said, goodbye. Go make stuff up to others who care to deal with it.
I have to work in NICU tomorrow and I don't care for your lies.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I didn't understand your intent until I saw you get defensive. I then went back to your post, read it, and understood where you made your mistake by using the word 'more' after a reference to the Holocaust. I explained that in my subsequent post. I did not write any lies.
Thank you for what you do in the NICU. I have a niece who was born with Hypoplastic-Left Heart Syndrom and the people in the NICU saved her life more than once. She is now almost 7 years old and is thriving.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Have a good night.
Kingofalldems
(38,427 posts)back then and not victims.
Kingofalldems
(38,427 posts)indiscriminately.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You only assume that thats what they would have done.
Kingofalldems
(38,427 posts)Look up WWII. You'll be shocked.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You simply assume things.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Japan is STILL paying to remove chemical weapons stockpiles they dumped and left behind in China as the war winded down.
10 million Chinese civilians didn't just up and kill themselves.
Another million and a half in India.
Etc.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Ask the Chinese about that. You won't find much about it in a Japanese textbook, but the rest of the world remembers.
paleotn
(17,888 posts)Maybe you should fact check that. Far more Japanese citizens were killed in conventional fire bombing than both nuclear attacks combined.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The rest died from radiation years later.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)related injuries, radiation and blast/heat/crush.
Injuries, Fatalities, radiation related disease, fatal and nonfatal, etc.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The number of those dying of cancer probaly couldn't even be counted. Its easily in the millions.
Look at the number of Chernobyl victims who died years after.
You make me sick.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The radiation output of the two instances are not even REMOTELY comparable. In a bomb, most of the fallout, compared to Chernobyl, is CONSUMED by the blast. There are many different fission products to consider, and exposure windows, but just looking at radioactive Cesium, Chernobyl was EIGHT HUNDRED AND NINETY times the total release over Nagasaki.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
The Japanese government tracks downstream health effects of the bombings, and they are not anything like what you have whipped yourself up into believing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibakusha
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Care to walk back that claim yet?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I'm done with you.
200,000.00 dead people are not enough for you.
Goodfukingbye.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So, project failings onto others as a defense mechanism. No worries. Nothing new.
Heaven forfend you make a mistake or admit an error.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And you were wrong.
400,000.00 people or more is just as bad as millions. Its a FUKING LOT OF PEOPLE!!!
Good bye.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I was not 'wrong' about what you said about the holocaust. It was one of two possibilities your own imprecise posting led to. Since the claim you made about the number who have and will die from the bombings was entirely fabricated, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that perhaps you meant something else. However, that something else is ALSO erroneous.
Again, perhaps you could be more precise in the future.
Honoring the victims is not accomplished by fabrication.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I don't know if I can take the drama all over again.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #75)
Post removed
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)you would see that actually, both of us are not in favor of war.
This disagreement stemmed from a simple factual error. You don't have to read this thread fork if two people settling a disagreement is unsettling to you.
kurtharp
(18 posts)150000 - 246000 killed in these two bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_raids_on_Japan
241000 - 900000 killed over all air raids on WW2 Japan
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)No one knows how many more have died and continue to dying to to the radiation effects!!
Its a fucking fact! But chose to ignore it if that makes you feel better about yourself.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)They were killed, one sundered body at a time with CONVENTIONAL bombs.
Whatever you meant to say, what you DID say in the post which got this started, was MORE PEOPLE died as a result of the atomic bombings of Japan than were killed in the Holocaust.
THEN when called on it, you defended that claim several times. When your nose was rubbed in that, you claimed deliberate misinterpretation of your words and demanded an apology.
AND NOW THIS! What you have just done is an OUTRIGHT and clearly DELIBERATE MISREPRESENTATION of starkly presented facts.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)imaginery numbers on a different thread earlier today?
Millions? Really?
Bucky
(53,965 posts)If you're gonna use history for your arguments. facts matter. Estimates for fatalities run about 120,000 for Hiroshima and 90,000 for Nagasaki. About 200,000 were killed in a single night's bombing of Tokyo the previous March. Combined, those death totals equal about the same number of civilians killed by Japan in their Nanjing campaign.
Use the google, please
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)Repayment for Japanese atrocities. Repayment for the Blitz.
Looking back we can call those events atrocities of our own, but at the time, I think without them there would have been a never ending string of individual acts of vengeance.
Japanese Americans might well have been kept in their camps into the 50's for their own safety. Perhaps even striped of their citizenship and forcibly deported.
There may well have been another economy crushing sequel to the treaty of Versailles.
The shock of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, plus the knowledge that a couple of German cities missed out on a similar fate by a matter of months, may well of kept us sufficiently horrified for long enough to accumulate too many of these weapons for us to ever dare use them.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Dresden, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki were aimed as a warning to a specific enemy, the Soviet Union. The warning was simple, the west had the ability to bomb cities and kill all of the residents of those cities. Notice the aim was NOT at Germany or Japan, those countries were already defeated just the formal surrender and terms of the surrender were in question when the above bombings occurred, but the Soviet Union.
These bombings had NOTHING to do with repaying the Japanese for whatever they had done, it had everything to do with how to deal with the Soviet Union. In the west, we tend to take a view that without western Aid, Hitler would have defeated the Soviet Union. While western aid helped the Soviet Union in its war with Germany (and Stalin's bad tactical decisions at the beginning of the German Invasion did not help the Soviet Union), the German Army was stopped and put on the retreat with most of that aid still in the supply line. i.e. it was mostly Soviet Resources that the Red Army use to stop the Germans and put them on the retreat NOT western aid.
Now, by the time of Stalingrad in the winter of 1942-1943, Western Aid was a significant assistance to the Soviet's fight with Germany, but by most accounts, the Red Army would still taken Berlin without that aid, but one or two years later then when it did. Once Stalin called back the Generals he had purged in the late 1930s and gave them the freedom to do what they wanted to do, the German gains of 1941 became a thing of the past. Another factor in the 1941 offensive is indications that Germany did not attack an Army on the Defensive, but one about to attack. The difference is best shown in how the Soviet Army acted in the first months of the war. The Red Army acted like it was NOT falling back on its own supply lines, in fact it appears the Germans had captured must of the supplies intended for the Soviet Army. In an army on the defensive you want your supplies at a safe distance to your rear, so the enemy can not reach it and if you have to, you retreat to those supplies. It is an army that is going to attack that wants its supplies up close, so the army can have such supplies follow them when it attacks. Such supplies were close to the Soviet Forces on the Frontier with Germany and thus indications that the Soviet Army was going to attack. In many ways to attack such an army first, is to destroy it for you easily separate it from its supplies as you surround that army and take the supplies for your own use.
I bring the concept of a Soviet attack being planned in 1941 to show that since the Germans attack first and it was attacking an army set to attack not defend, once those frontier forces were defeated it made the whole operation easier for the Germany Army. The person to blame for this was Stalin (along with his dismissal of many of the top officers of the Red Army during the purges of the late 1930s).
I also bring the above up, for once those losses were made up (by moving troops from elsewhere) the Soviet Red Army was able to stop the German Army at the Gates of Moscow and send it into retreat. The German army would go on the offensive in 1942, but it would be on the weak southern front NOT any attack on Moscow and that attacked also ended up in defeat. By 1943 the Soviet Army was the better of the two armies on the Eastern Front and that would continue till Berlin fell to the Russians in 1945.
I bring this up for Dresden was done to impress the Russians as they entered Germany. Even after the invasion of Normandy, most German Troops stayed on the Eastern Front. That was the main front, what was happening in Italy and France was, at best, a secondary concern for the Germans.
As to the Russians, they had the supplies to keep their army in the field. In many ways the much smaller western armies were having a hard time to match. The US Supply lines across France collapsed in September 1945 and no further offensive operations was possible after that date (Operation Market Garden was the last real effort to attack till spring). German resistance in the west was weak compared to what they were doing in the East and this became apparent as the supply problems eased in the West as Spring began (The Battle of the Budge ended more due to German shortages of fuel, men and equipment then anything the western allies did, not that the western allies did not put up a good fight, but both armies were working within very tight supply problems which lead to the success of the attack and its eventual failure).
Thus by winter of 1945, it was clear Germany would be under Ally occupation by summer and what the Western Allies and Russia were doing was more to impress each other then to deal with problems being created by the German Army. Out of this concern came Dresden. It was the largest city that had NOT been attacked from the air. It was an older city, where a fire storm could occur if enough bombs were dropped. Thus the older center city was the target, not the military bases and factories in the suburbs (to few wooden buildings to cause a fire storm in those locations). The Allies wanted the Russians to see what a Fire Storm caused by Incendiary bombs would look like. That appears to have been the goal, but a goal no one wanted to talk about for the Russians were technically allies and the Germans were suppose to be the real targets.
My point is Dresden had NOTHING to do with vengeance, it has everything to do with impressing the Russians.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:08 PM - Edit history (1)
The best estimate puts loses due to the Hiroshima bombing at 70-80,000, Nagasaki much less at 40-75,000. The reason for the lesser number of Nagasaki is that it is a city build on rolling hills and the hills protected parts of the city from the full effect of the bomb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
More on the March 9-10th Fire Bomb Raid on Tokyo, the single most destructive bombing in History, over 100,000 killed.
http://flgrube1.tripod.com/id13.html
Please note, no Fire storm occurred at Nagasaki, but did occur in Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo and Hiroshima. It was the Fire Storm that was the real killer at Dresden, Hamburg and Tokyo.
Due to the high loss of life in the March 9-10th Fire bombing on Tokyo, numbers have been fudged for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It has been convenient for the US (to show the power of Atomic Bombs) and Japan (To show how much they were victims of Atomic Bombs) to play down the losses in the Toyko fire bomb raid and play up the the numbers killed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The problem is when it comes to hard facts, the Fire bomb raid wins out in number of people killed.
Just a comment that millions did not die at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The losses were huge and terrible (and in many ways uncalled for) but the losses are in the 100,000s for both cities not the millions.
Side note: We are coming up to the anniversary of the bombings. People forget WHY the bombings occurred when they did. No more bombs would be available till late August and it had already been decided to hold onto it, till the planned invasion of Japan on November 1945. Thus the first bombings was NOT part of the regular bombing plan on Japan, but two first time usage of such weapons. Furthermore, each was different, a uranium bomb was used on Hiroshima and a plutonium bomb was used Nagasaki.
Furthermore, when Japan Surrendered it appears NOT to have been do to the Atomic Bombing. The Atomic bombing was less then the Fire Bomb Raid on Tokyo thus was NOT that significant even the over all power the US had over Japan at that time period. Japan was still holding out for no occupation of the home islands even as the bombs were dropped. What appears to have changed the mind of the Japanese Government was that Stalin kept his word to FDR, that he would intervene in the War with Japan within three months of the Surrender of Germany.
Germany had officially surrendered on May 8 (The actual surrender occurred on May 7th, which is the date given in most History books, but by treaty it was May 8th). The third month after May 8th, was August 8th. Thus on or before August 8th, the Soviet Union was treaty bound to attack Japan.
Please note, Stalin had to move an entire army, consisting of three Red Army Fronts (a Russian "Front" is the equivalent of a US Army "Army Group" from Germany to Manchuria over the Tran-Siberian railroad during that 90 day period (Movemen of about 1.5 million men AND their equipment). To do so, the units moved were told to abandoned all of their heavy equipment, including trucks and tanks, in East Germany and go East to the Soviet Union. In the Soviet Union it was equipped with new tanks and trucks (due to the condition of the railways in Eastern Europe in the Summer of 1945 that was the only way you could get trained soldiers with equipment to Manchuria). Thus even the US thought 90 days was pushing it for a Soviet Intervention, but Stalin managed to do it.
On August 5th the Soviet Union informed Japan it was dissolving the Mutual non-aggression pact it had signed with Japan. Japan had believe this would not occur till November, when they expected the American Invasion to begin. The dissolution of the non-aggression pact meant Russia was about to attack.
Now, the US did not know when the Soviet Union would attack or how, but suspected it would be Manchuria. The US also expected Russia to ask to more time to launch an attack, given the problems of moving a Soviet Army East. On the other hand, the US wanted to drop its Atomic Bomb to give the Japanese an excuse to surrender before Soviet Intervention. Thus why no demonstration bomb was dropped and why the first one was dropped on August 6th and the second on August 9th.
In between those bombings, the Soviet Army invaded Manchuria on August 8th as the Soviet Union declared war on Japan. By August 15th, the day Japan surrendered, it was clear that by August 31st Manchuria would be completely in Soviet hands, and all of Korea would be in Soviet hands by October 1, 1945. This unpleasant fact is what seems to have driven the Japanese Leadership to surrender NOT the Atomic bombings. In his famous surrender speech, the Emperor clearly mentions the Soviet attack and ignores both the conventional bombing and atomic bombings on Japan. Furthermore, the Emperor is know to say the day AFTER the second atomic bombing that if the Emperor-ship is NOT maintained, Japan would continued to fight. This all changed by the 15th when it became clear the Soviet Red Army would have Korea by October 1st and the only force that could stop the Red Army was the US Army.
In fact after Japan surrendered they insisted on US troops in Korea. US planners had planned to retain the Japanese Army in Korea, but when the Japanese told them that was NOT possible, the US send in the Marines in their first invasion of Incheon on September 8, 1945 (not to be confused with the Incheon Invasion of September 15th, 1950). The Soviet Red Army had NOT yet reached Incheon or Seoul thus both came under US Occupation, as Russia occupied what is today North Korea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_War_(1945)#Importance_and_consequences
In simple terms, while the Soviet Red Army had outrun its supply lines by the end of August and needed to regroup, no Japanese forces were left that could stop them once they resumed their offensive. The speed of this offensive shocked not only the Japanese but the US Army. It was like taking all of Western Europe in a three week war. It was the biggest defeat the Japanese Army ever suffered.
One other factor that affected the Japanese surrender. While Japan is known today as a low crime country, it had managed to kill off almost all opposition leaders in the 1930s. The sole surviving opposition leader, was the leader of the Japanese Communist Party and he was living in Moscow. Thus the Japanese leadership was looking at being replaced by a Communist, for no one else with any real political standing was still living. They knew the US was anti-communist and thus knew the US would NOT install a communist as the leader of Japan, but the Soviet Union would.
Now the Japanese and the Americans did not know this, but the Soviet Union had come up with a plan to invade the northernmost Japanese main island on November 1, 1945, It was weakly defended for the Japanese expected the US to invade it southernmost main island. I mention it for the Japanese did have a real fear of a Soviet Invasion for once that island was in Soviet Hands, an invasion of the main island is just a jump across a channel and then a quick armor thrust to Tokyo.
More on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Manchuria_(1945)
Transfer of equipment from the US to the Soviet Union in 1945, in anticipation of Soviet invasion of Japan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Hula
More on why Japan Surrendered (and why the Soviet Invasion was the main reason NOT the Atomic Bombings):
http://books.google.com/books?id=XjW49VTRhxQC&pg=PA133&lpg=PA133&dq=Soviet+invasion+Hokkaid%C5%8D&source=bl&ots=JnUknKVzRR&sig=UDzra_98MfSEU_jxLC3P0D9ryj8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iLABUq7_JoWt4APppIHgDg&ved=0CG4Q6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Soviet%20invasion%20Hokkaid%C5%8D&f=false
Please note, unrest among the Japanese people was known, and appears to have been a bigger factor then the Atomic Bombing. The US Air Force had been dropping mines in the harbors and sea lanes of Japan since April. The Air Force put this mining on a low priority, but subsequent studies shows it was the most effective use of bombers during the war with Japan. Civilian Sailors would not go on commercial ships due to fear of mines, thus commerce was coming to a stop and the leadership of Japan was afraid of a Communist revolution:
More on the mining of Japan:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Starvation
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA420650&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
In many ways, the Soviet quick take over of Manchuria brought fear to the ruling elites of Japan that the Communist Party of Japan would wait for a Soviet Invasion to revolt, thus permitting a take over of Japan by the Communists. In many ways this was a one two punch. The Soviet Advance brought with it the fear of a Communist revolt. That was more feared then an Occupation by US Troops. Thus Japan gave up all of its reservation on the Potsdam declaration except preservation of the Emperor (and even then gave up the idea that the Emperor was a "God" for the US wanted the Emperor as a King like the King of Great Britain not as a "God" as the Japanese Emperors had been viewed. A Communist revolt would have over thrown the Emperor and that had to be avoided at all cost, and by August 15th that included US Occupation of Japan.
rexcat
(3,622 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:02 AM - Edit history (1)
Worst case 250,000 people died immediately or within 4 months of the blast. Another 1,900 died from cancers related to the bombings over the years.
Your credibility is suspect if you can't get the facts straight! (this line edited for clarity)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki
http://ippnweducation.wordpress.com/casualties-of-nuclear-war/
http://asianhistory.about.com/od/warsinasia/a/History-Of-Nuclear-Weapons-In-Asia.htm
tabasco
(22,974 posts)You must be thinking about the Chinese victims of the Japanese Imperial Army.
http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/index.html
Deep13
(39,154 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Would you??
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Aristus
(66,300 posts)You seem to be saying that if the Bataan Death Marchers were victims, then that means the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't.
That way of thinking seems to be a little......cloudy...
Kingofalldems
(38,427 posts)Korea, the Philippines. Should I go on? The poster was talking about a ship built by the Japanese government, not the people.
Aristus
(66,300 posts)You were asserting that someone claiming that the civilian casualties of the atomic bombing were victims was categorically denying that same status to the victims of the Bataan Death March.
I replied that it's not a zero-sum situation; that if one group of people are victims, another, tangentially-related group cannot therefor be considered victims themselves is incomplete thinking.
Kingofalldems
(38,427 posts)Poster claimed the country of Japan was a victim. I stand by my post and did NOT change the subject.
hack89
(39,171 posts)they started a war that killed millions of innocent civilians throughout China and SE Asia. The Germans had nothing on the Japanese when it came to mass murder and atrocities.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Were fuking innocent people!! God fuking dammit!!
hack89
(39,171 posts)the Japanese murdered nearly 10 million civilians in the countries they invaded and occupied. That was reason enough to drop the bombs and end the slaughter as quickly as possible.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)...and ultimately of themselves.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)thats japans fucking fault. ignored the first bomb. but not fat boy
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)the top of the govt still got away with mass murder.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)He should have swung next to Tojo.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Do you have something against a country building a destroyer? Or is it that only us deserve good military!! Lmao!!!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Let the other poster answer, will ya.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)EX500rider
(10,813 posts).....but since they aren't allowed those we'll all wink and call it a destroyer..
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Too small for most aircraft. Couldn't even carry many VTOL aircraft.
Carry a shedload of drones though.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Kali
(55,004 posts)Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Factories, wharehouses, transpotation, and command/control. During wwII it was common for everyone to participate in the war effort. You can't impose the 2013 mindset into the 1940's. Different world, different times.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)People of Manchuria might be getting nervous.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Please, give me an example! Have we ever did anything wrong that you admit of?
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)The Japanese are victims of what? Bombing us first? That's like me walking down the street and randomly punching someone in the face and then playing the victim when they hit back.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)You said they were victims. Victims of what? It's not like the U.S. just decided to nuke Japan out of the blue. They weren't just peacefully existing before America bombed 'em.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You are right its a discussion forum, but it was a specific question. Why do you chose to ignore that?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That person will probably respond when they are able to.
I note your responses to certain posts have been highly selective. Shall I demand you reply to each and every single one?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and the villain in places as diverse as Chile, Iran and Indonesia during the Cold War.
Imperial Japan was Adolf Hitler's willing accomplice and ally.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)William769
(55,144 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Go look at the pics of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki victims. And get back to us.
William769
(55,144 posts)I have looked at a lot and yes I would call myself very well versed in WWII. I cannot believe the people making themselves look bad with posting erroneous information. If someone is going to post numbers as fact, they had better make sure they are right. Just an example.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)William769
(55,144 posts)& how many people they brutally killed. Thats something some people refuse to talk about not only because they can't defend it they would look like damn fools trying to.
John2
(2,730 posts)understand it, go back as far as the known written history of man. If you adhere to any religion, it is in their Bibles. What the Axis did, is not the first attempts of genocide, on the basis of racial superiority, and it want be the last. It is not the first time in history, certain races have been oppressed because they were thought of as inferior either. The Japanese considered the Chinese and Koreans inferior, just like the Europeans did to the Africans and American Indians. How many people do you think great conquerors like Alexander,Ghengis Khan,or the Romans slaughtered? How many Africans do you think died at the height of the Atlantic Slave Trade or Native Americans, that were wiped out during the conquest of North and South America. Even Africans have committed genocide. It was part of Darwin's Theory about the nature of man. Dropping a Nuclear Bomb or two on Japan didn't prove anything though. There was no winners. Now you have Nuclear proliferation.
You can't place it back into the box now can you? Right after we nuked Japan, General McArthur threatened to nuke China, but was fired. It made the Chinese and USSR build their own nuclear arsenals. The North Koreans wanted help from both but they refused. The U.S. reneged on an armistice with North Korea. The original Treaty was a declaration, no nuclear weapons would be used on the Korean peninsula. The U.S. came back and voided the nuclear weapon provision, by stating, they had the right to place tactical nuclear weapons on the Korean Peninsula. Ever since, the North Koreans has been trying to get their own nuclear weapons because they are afraid the U.S. might invade them. They have been trying to get a Treaty from the U.S. not to invade them, but Bush destroyed that with his speech.
The U.S. also shared that technology with her allies. That includes Britain and France. You need to consider the environment of the U.S. after the Civil War, Reconstruction and up to those Two World Wars. And lets not forget the period of Manifest Destiny and the push out West. Racism was rampant in this country and some of that was directed at Chinese immigrants. We also had prior adventures in Japan. Japan had a lot of experience or places to get their racist supremacist ideology from. They admired the Europeans. Just go back to the beginning of man. Maybe you can start with the children of Adam and Eve? Maybe it is in Greek Mythology and Pandora's Box. Maybe it is with King Saul, and man's battle with God. Evil is just a part of this World. when people have supremacist ideas, then you will get genocides. It is going on in the Middle East now, based on rightwing supremacist ideas about race.
Godot51
(239 posts)History might dispute that. After defeating China in 1895 (taking Korea as a prize) and Russia in 1905 Japan was the aggressor in Manchuria and later other parts of China leading up to the U.S. embargo and Pearl Harbor and all that followed, including the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Throughout much of the Meiji, Taisho and Showa eras Japan was at war, usually as the aggressor.
Contrast that with the past 68 years since WWII. 68 years of peace.
However today many born after the war are ignorant of both war itself and the history of that war. PM Shintaro Abe is such a man, a vapid, spoiled, rich politician's son, not unlike a George Bush
I've lived in Japan over 30 years and the recent moves to either amend and rewrite its anti-war constitution or rewrite the rules for making amendments first are not the actions of a country that recalls its history or has an idea of what war is about.
In Japan today too many are not educated in the background behind the atomic bombings. Tuesday (8/6) and this Friday (8/9) are treated as memorials to days when suddenly the U.S. dropped the bomb on an innocent people.
The debate as to whether the bombs should have been dropped or not will continue. I cannot condone that action, but neither can I condone almost all actions taken in war, large or small.
The symbolism behind this launch date is obvious and evident. The reasoning behind that symbolism is not reasoned or reasonable.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)Was that you intent? Do you believe that Japan was a victim of US aggression? While the allies committed their share of atrocities, we have to keep in mind that WW2 was a total war. There is lots of room for debate if the destruction of cities like Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki were moral, but that doesn't make Japan/Germany the victim. If the civilians were victims of anyone, they were victims of their own government's aggression. Also, we need to keep in mind that these cities and their populations were wheels that made the war machines move. How are those supposed to handle such things?
Gregorian
(23,867 posts)diverdownjt
(701 posts)PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)do'h. tell me why I'm supposed to feel sorry for a country that keeps forgetting it's past? It has zero honor
Response to jberryhill (Original post)
guyton This message was self-deleted by its author.
boomer55
(592 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)ManiacJoe
(10,136 posts)sofa king
(10,857 posts)Many are aware that Japan built the two largest battleships ever, but there was a third ship of the Yamato class, Shinano, which emerged as the largest aircraft carrier of World War II. It compared rather favorably to the American supercarriers of later decades in the 20th Century, such as the Forrestal (CV-59).
The "battleship" Shinano and the "destroyer" Izumo share nearly the same deck length. Catapults and ski jumps are hardly necessary now that the real fun is going to be in deploying a thousand expendable VTOL drones.
Conversions of one sort of ship into an aircraft carrier were not terribly unusual in World War II and the years prior. The Japanese even created a hybrid battleship-carrier by converting the Ise-class battleships to have main guns up front and a flight deck in back, while the Americans happily slapped flight decks on battlecruisers, cruisers and cargo ships.
Also worthy of note is the fact that the tween-wars Japanese always found a way to bend or break the naval treaties and agreements to which they were nominally bound, particularly when it came to their "destroyers," which were invariably larger and faster than their equivalents in other navies, and sometimes so heavily armed as to be in danger of capsizing in high seas.
It seems to me then that some of the Japanese are not as ignorant of their own history as some of us wish to believe, because what the Japanese are doing here is violently wiggling within the confines of laws they no longer wish to obey, exactly as they did in the interwar years before Pearl Harbor.
You can call this ship a web-footed floating avian, but it's quacking like a duck.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)they should be using those millions they are spending on implements of war to cleanup fukishima! what a fucking joke humans are.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Its too late for that.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)it's fubar. just a reaction to human stupidity.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)All of them, no exceptions.
argument from me.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)combating illness and for industrial safety purposes, like inspecting bridges, buildings, oil rigs, etc, right?
No exceptions? How interesting.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)got hair.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)What do they make us, a war nation??
Don't you think other nations have the right to defend themselves?
Deep13
(39,154 posts)BTW, America does not have a pacifist constitution. It won the war.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Yes, we should be pacifists.
Vote repuke if you don't agree with that.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)But it does not exist in our constitution so it's not a valid expectation of us, as one might with Japan.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I will never forget what you said to me in this exchange.
Gooffreakingbye.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Deep13
(39,154 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Between the regional merchant marine covering a huge area, and the region itself suffering from regular natural disasters, a means of getting a lot of helicopters over a given area can be really, really useful even in absolute peacetime.
Officially speaking something like that's got a variety of military purposes with a big focus on various kinds of property damage, but in practice its busiest days would be after a major quake, typhoon or tsunami, or similar events.
One of those odd setups where officially, the ship's a warship with humanitarian applications as a secondary goal, but in practice those are going to be reversed unless something bad and hugely unexpected happens in the region.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)It is all bullshit. They are rebuilding their navy in anticipation of our withdrawal from the region as we continue to unravel into fiscal insolvency and are gearing up for a showdown with china. China is happy to oblige as they need the potential conflict as a distraction and as an excuse to build their navy. New world disorder looks a lot like same old shit to me.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Willing to bet, this will eventually be used as a drone platform.
That's the future of naval airpower.
Edit: Well, our LHD's do sorta look like it I guess. Hmm.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)the Japanese role in WWII. So the Japan haters need to just STFU.
The guilty are DEAD AND GONE. Many of the living are still suffering as the result of other people's inability to behave like adults and get along.
Stop pissing on the Japanese, folks. DU is becoming a cesspool of RW claptrap.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Shit, I don't even cheer when WE build more weapons...
Bucky
(53,965 posts)It's better than, say, North Korea building something like that.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Could be used for horrible things. So I tend to frown on it. I see no threat to our ally that warrants it. Not even China.
Perhaps this one will be used as a rescue tool for natural disasters. Hard to say.
Bucky
(53,965 posts)For what it's worth, the Department of Defense actually does deploy its naval crafts and helicopters on humanitarian missions quite often. I certainly hope their carrier doesn't get used for violence. But I'm not in a medium sized country with an ongoing territorial waters dispute with a superpower. Japan's had a pretty good track record for favoring world peace over the past half century. I wish it were otherwise, but preparedness is still one of the best preventers of war.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Now there's a great word that deserves more use!
I'll bet most people think it refers to a brothel.
snort
(2,334 posts)I mean what am I supposed to do, delete my entire Zatoichi collection? Not a chance!
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)burnodo
(2,017 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Kind of an "own goal" as it were.
Rhiannon12866
(204,856 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)Angleae
(4,481 posts)penultimate
(1,110 posts)They have China over a little to their south west building and acquiring aircraft carriers of their own. I don't think Japan will be taking over South East Asia with their small helicopter carrier, excuse me, destroyer anytime soon.