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Mon Dec 2, 2013, 03:52 PM

Tea party activist: ‘Jesus Christ is weeping in heaven’ over pope’s criticism of capitalism'

Source: Raw Story

Yet another conservative has taken issue with critical comments made by Pope Francis on capitalism and “trickle-down” economics.

Tea party activist Jonathon Moseley published a World Net Daily column Sunday that challenged the pope’s interpretation of the Bible, saying that Jesus had addressed his comments about helping the poor to individuals, not the government.

Moseley, a Virginia business and criminal defense attorney, supports his claim with a verse from the Book of Luke in which Jesus declines to act as arbitrator when someone asks him to compel a brother to divide their family inheritance.

“In just one verse, we see that God rejects the left-wing ‘Jesus Christ supported socialism’ heresy,” Moseley writes. “When Jesus was asked to support redistribution of wealth — to tell one brother to share the family inheritance with the other — Jesus refused.”

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/12/02/tea-party-activist-jesus-christ-is-weeping-in-heaven-over-popes-criticism-of-capitalism/

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Reply Tea party activist: ‘Jesus Christ is weeping in heaven’ over pope’s criticism of capitalism' (Original post)
Galraedia Dec 2013 OP
Turbineguy Dec 2013 #1
stopbush Dec 2013 #114
Borchkins Dec 2013 #126
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #128
NCarolinawoman Dec 2013 #156
maxsolomon Dec 2013 #2
olddad56 Dec 2013 #67
Laelth Dec 2013 #135
nxylas Dec 2013 #72
Scootaloo Dec 2013 #79
Cal33 Dec 2013 #81
maxsolomon Dec 2013 #146
Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #136
Mz Pip Dec 2013 #141
Scairp Dec 2013 #158
Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #167
Locrian Dec 2013 #3
CJCRANE Dec 2013 #4
Ace Acme Dec 2013 #33
eridani Dec 2013 #123
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #129
Sgent Dec 2013 #185
Jack Rabbit Dec 2013 #85
Ace Acme Dec 2013 #98
Jack Rabbit Dec 2013 #100
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #116
WinstonSmith4740 Dec 2013 #104
eridani Dec 2013 #124
Ikonoklast Dec 2013 #106
Augiedog Dec 2013 #5
freshwest Dec 2013 #101
stopbush Dec 2013 #6
leftyohiolib Dec 2013 #10
stopbush Dec 2013 #15
NastyRiffraff Dec 2013 #52
rug Dec 2013 #82
stopbush Dec 2013 #83
CBGLuthier Dec 2013 #14
LanternWaste Dec 2013 #37
Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #168
SoapBox Dec 2013 #7
Fortinbras Armstrong Dec 2013 #170
Gothmog Dec 2013 #8
christx30 Dec 2013 #27
Orrex Dec 2013 #9
Ace Acme Dec 2013 #35
jehop61 Dec 2013 #11
dgibby Dec 2013 #70
MNBrewer Dec 2013 #71
Jack Rabbit Dec 2013 #86
MNBrewer Dec 2013 #119
onehandle Dec 2013 #12
trusty elf Dec 2013 #122
albino65 Dec 2013 #13
Maeve Dec 2013 #16
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #56
Bandit Dec 2013 #62
Bandit Dec 2013 #64
bitchkitty Dec 2013 #171
nyquil_man Dec 2013 #17
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #130
Roland99 Dec 2013 #18
weissmam Dec 2013 #25
Roland99 Dec 2013 #26
BlancheSplanchnik Dec 2013 #59
Dollysmom Dec 2013 #60
The Wielding Truth Dec 2013 #65
zeemike Dec 2013 #76
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progressoid Dec 2013 #19
olddad56 Dec 2013 #68
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JoePhilly Dec 2013 #21
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yellowcanine Dec 2013 #28
Rozlee Dec 2013 #47
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #131
Rozlee Dec 2013 #137
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #157
Rozlee Dec 2013 #169
stopbush Dec 2013 #95
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #117
stopbush Dec 2013 #118
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #120
stopbush Dec 2013 #143
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #133
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #132
stopbush Dec 2013 #147
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #159
SansACause Dec 2013 #29
MisterP Dec 2013 #50
colsohlibgal Dec 2013 #30
sakabatou Dec 2013 #31
mike_c Dec 2013 #32
Arkana Dec 2013 #34
Iliyah Dec 2013 #36
stopbush Dec 2013 #94
Ace Acme Dec 2013 #99
stopbush Dec 2013 #113
eridani Dec 2013 #127
Cha Dec 2013 #38
heaven05 Dec 2013 #39
pampango Dec 2013 #40
HockeyMom Dec 2013 #41
Mr. Sabbath Dec 2013 #42
Jessy169 Dec 2013 #43
mindem Dec 2013 #44
nxylas Dec 2013 #74
jwirr Dec 2013 #45
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2013 #46
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KansDem Dec 2013 #53
Jack Rabbit Dec 2013 #63
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JHB Dec 2013 #54
Dollysmom Dec 2013 #55
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mindem Dec 2013 #58
Buck Stopin Harry Dec 2013 #61
blue14u Dec 2013 #105
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Blanket Statements Dec 2013 #77
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Swede Atlanta Dec 2013 #87
underpants Dec 2013 #88
QuestForSense Dec 2013 #97
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underpants Dec 2013 #92
Caretha Dec 2013 #103
rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #109
blue14u Dec 2013 #108
rustbeltvoice Dec 2013 #110
Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #91
Sand Wind Dec 2013 #152
Lydia Leftcoast Dec 2013 #154
Sand Wind Dec 2013 #155
ctsnowman Dec 2013 #93
stopbush Dec 2013 #150
RBInMaine Dec 2013 #102
DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #107
marble falls Dec 2013 #111
TomCADem Dec 2013 #112
freshwest Dec 2013 #115
stopbush Dec 2013 #151
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #161
Beartracks Dec 2013 #164
stopbush Dec 2013 #172
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #173
stopbush Dec 2013 #178
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #183
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #174
stopbush Dec 2013 #179
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #184
stopbush Dec 2013 #186
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #175
stopbush Dec 2013 #180
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #182
stopbush Dec 2013 #187
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #125
Laelth Dec 2013 #134
Tigress DEM Dec 2013 #160
Dash87 Dec 2013 #140
Orsino Dec 2013 #142
FiveGoodMen Dec 2013 #144
Indi Guy Dec 2013 #148
mainer Dec 2013 #149
Sand Wind Dec 2013 #153
struggle4progress Dec 2013 #162
Beartracks Dec 2013 #163
blkmusclmachine Dec 2013 #165
mwb970 Dec 2013 #166
2banon Dec 2013 #176
burnsei sensei Dec 2013 #177
DBoon Dec 2013 #181
struggle4progress Dec 2013 #188

Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 03:57 PM

1. Read the fucking Book dickhead.

Luke wrote "Supply Side Jesus"?

Besides, yeah, WTF does the Pope know about the Bible?

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Response to Turbineguy (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:17 AM

114. Catholicism isn't really about The Bible.

That's Protestantism.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #114)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:47 AM

126. You're right.

I was raised Catholic, it's not about the book.
B

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Response to stopbush (Reply #114)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:11 AM

128. Wrong. There are 3 readings daily from the Bible for every Catholic Mass.

http://www.usccb.org/bible/readings/120313.cfm

There is a disagreement about how to interpret things in the Bible and Luther had some valid points, but the Church today isn't the Church of that time. Masses aren't all in High Latin and undecernable to the general populace. The Medicis were worse than Benedict, but he's gone too.

MAYBE the evil of greed and corruption can bring together the likes of us all - Popes and paupers, Protestants and protesters, believers and atheists. NO ONE sane wants to live in a world where greed and corruption rule (except the small percentage at the top who would reap all the benefits of such a society).


Seems to me that Pope Francis, like the original Francis of Assisi is less about money and prestige and more about the people and living according to the Bible the way Jesus taught. Simply - love God and treat each other as you would be treated. If Catholics and Christians in general could get back to that space, they wouldn't be worried about any war on Christmas or gays hurting marriage. Jesus didn't berate anyone except the Pharisees for their hypocracy and the money changers for cheating people in the temple by over charging on exchanges for the sake of profit.

In short, Christians of all stripes will be less able to defend these crazy reich wing positions with the Pope calling them on the carpet for it.

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #128)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:33 PM

156. That is a very nice post.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 03:58 PM

2. May I remind you that the Pope is INFALLABLE?

"Heresy"? Hilarious!

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:12 PM

67. I think he was right in the money on this one. Pope is a liberal, so was J.C.

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #67)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:36 AM

135. +1. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:38 PM

72. Is Moseley actually a Catholic?

He doesn't identify himself as one. And if he's not, then he is unlikely to believe in the doctrine of papal infallibility.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:00 PM

79. Actually not.

 

Papal infallibility only applies when the Pope is defining a doctrine for the church as a whole. It's not "The pope is right about everything," it's "The pope is the final authority on doctrinal matters"

Less "voice of god" and more "one-man supreme court."

Not that Imagine this Tea Pirate could understand any of that even if they tried

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:02 PM

81. I don't think you understand the concept of "infallibility" pertaining to the pope. It

 

is on a very limited scale, and is rarely used.

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Response to Cal33 (Reply #81)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:38 PM

146. I don't think you understand that my post was a joke.

It was, really. I know about Ex Cathedra, which is also A JOKE.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:54 AM

136. The pope is only infallible when speaking Ex cathedra. Those pronucements are very rare

 

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:04 PM

141. A pope hasn't spoken Ex Cathedra in decades.

That's the only time a Pope's words are deemed infallible.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:22 AM

158. Seriously man

They are playing with fire by dissing the pope. But he does seem to be irritating a great many wing nuts with his crazy ideas about assisting those who cannot help themselves and his comments about Christmas being overly commercialized. You know, being a Christian in practice as well as name.

Also, I thought that he was Christ's vicar on earth, anointed by God. They seem to be the ones committing heresy.

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Response to maxsolomon (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:50 AM

167. The Pope is infallible only when speaking Ex Cathedra

The last time it happened was in 1950, the time before then was 1864.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:01 PM

3. that's some powerful stupid there - n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:01 PM

4. Except didn't Jesus ask his followers to give up their worldly goods

and share everything equally?



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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:43 PM

33. Didn't he say it was easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle

 

... then to get a rich man into heaven?

This tea party ideology comes from the Calvinists, who believed that wealth was proof that God loved you
more than he loved other people.


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Response to Ace Acme (Reply #33)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:27 AM

123. Probably a mistranslation. A single letter distinguished "camel" from

"rope" in the original. The latter makes much more sense as an analogy. If you had a kid so old-fashioned as to write snail mail letters home from summer camp, and he said they slept on cats in their tent, you'd probably assume he meant "cots."

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Response to eridani (Reply #123)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:17 AM

129. Actually, there is (or was) a gate from Jerusalem called the Eye of the Needle....

For a rich man to exit that gate he would have to unpack his camel on one side and repack it on the other. So rich men did not go through that gate because they could not be bothered.

Poor people on the other hand, not so encumbered with wealth could walk that path easily.

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #129)

Sun Dec 8, 2013, 05:54 PM

185. That's a bit revisionist

There is no mention of that gate in Jewish or Christian (or any other) literature of that era, nor is there any archaeological evidence of the same. The idea was proposed by a 13th century monk and expanded by the preachers of the "prosperity gospel".

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:09 PM

85. Yes, and he told them to pay their taxes, too

His example was that Caesar's image was on the coin, therefore the coin belonged to Caesar.

By extension, today we see the seal of the US government on our paper money. Therefore, it's the US government's money. So, tea baggers, stop complaining every time the Koch brothers tell you to complain. Pay your taxes and smile. You're going to Heaven.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #85)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:54 PM

98. But it's God's paper money, can't you see?

 

It's not backed by gold, or silver, or anything real.

It says right on it "In God We Trust".

So there you have it--the full faith and credit of God is invested in those dollars.

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Response to Ace Acme (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:03 PM

100. "In God we trust" is the US national motto

I'm sure that ditzy Tea Party activist of whom the OP speaks can use that to show that God is American.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #100)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:30 AM

116. Are you trying to imply that God isn't an American?

 

I'm pretty sure it's right there in Genesis, or maybe the Second a Epistle to the Louisvillians. He created America and bald eagles and Christian-fish bumper stickers on the same day.

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Response to Ace Acme (Reply #98)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:15 PM

104. I can easily be mistaken about this.

But wasn't "In God We Trust" put on our money the same time as "under God" was put in the Pledge of Allegiance? In other words, during the McCarthy witch hunts of the early '50's.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #85)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:37 AM

124. He was actually attempting to avoid getting torn to shreds by an anti-Roman mob or

--being arrested on the spot by Roman soldiers. The questioner asked him about paying taxes to Rome because "yes" guaranteed the former and "no" guaranteed the latter precisely to trap him.

So why didn't the anti-Roman crowd tear him apart when he said "Pay taxes to the Romans"? Remember that at that time the prohibition against idols was not just about making statues of God (Yahweh or otherwise), but also against blasphemy. Making images of any living thing was regarded as mocking the creative power of God--still is in Islam and Eastern Orthodox churches.

So here was a coin which not only had a picture of a living being on it, but that being was a conquering emperor of a foreign power who demanded to be worshiped as an adopted son of the Roman gods. Christ slyly pointed out that handling such coins was the grossest act of blasphemy, and they ought to stop blaspheming by getting rid off all the coins, sending them back to the emperor. The crowd likely appreciated both the humorous diversion and also the extra dig at rich people, by definition the biggest blasphemers of all.

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #4)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:37 PM

106. And Jesus told the rich young man to sell all that he had, give it to the poor, and come follow him.

The young man turned away sorely distressed, as he was quite wealthy and did not want to give up his many things.




And not much has changed in the 2000 or so years that have passed since then.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:03 PM

5. Liars

If you say you are a republican and a Christian, you are a liar...each is mutually exclusive of the other. You don't have to be Democrat, but if you want to rationally claim to be a Christian, you also by definition have to reject tea Bagger/republican ideology. Jesus May be crying, but it's because he is thankful the Pope finally heard His message.

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Response to Augiedog (Reply #5)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:08 PM

101. +1

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:03 PM

6. Jesus + heaven = make believe

I wouldn't worry about it.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:15 PM

10. link please

 

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Response to stopbush (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:26 PM

52. Thanks for that link!

I haven't seen that site before.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #15)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:05 PM

82. That site's blog agrees with the Pope.

 

Friday, March 15, 2013

Understanding Capitalism Part V: Evolution of the American Economy

Topic: Announcements

At long last, I'm finially publishing my latest aricle on capitalism. It's been almost 3 years in the making, but I've finally wrapped it up.

Understanding Capitalism Part V: Evolution of the American Economy

This article seeks to provide an understanding of capitalism by providing an overview of the the American economy from colonial times to present day, and then using economic theory to understand why America's economic history unfolded the way that it has, and to then understand what both America's economic history and economic theory tell us about America's economic future.


http://www.rationalrevolution.net/blog/




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Response to rug (Reply #82)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:07 PM

83. Or maybe The Pope reads that site...

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Response to stopbush (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:17 PM

14. People criticizing other people's beliefs equals reality.

Religion may not be real but the philosophical argument in this "debate" sure as fuck is.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #6)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:58 PM

37. Like politics... as they exist nowhere but our imaginations.

 

"make believe..."


Much like politics... as they exist nowhere but our imaginations.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #37)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:53 AM

168. Samuel Johnson, speaking circa 1760

Said, "Politics is like men's watches. Each one says something different, and each man swears by his own."

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:05 PM

7. Just when you think they cannot say anything

that is more fucking stupid than what they said previously....

Score! More stupid! And just think, right here in America, someone that is more versed on the Bible than the Pope!

TeaTerrorists.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:58 AM

170. The Stupid! It burns! n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:14 PM

8. Tea Party types do not believe in Jesus or the Bible

They only believe in their warped views of the role of religion

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Response to Gothmog (Reply #8)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:33 PM

27. As long as it enables them

to support their hatred of gays, it's all good. God, Budda, Mohammed. Well... maybe not Mohammed. That goes against their belief in racism.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:15 PM

9. Fat lot of good he's going to do up in heaven.

Tell him to get his ass down here and start cleaning house!

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Response to Orrex (Reply #9)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:45 PM

35. Jesus is coming and boy is he pissed!

 

He's going to be taking names and kicking asses and letting God sort them out!

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:15 PM

11. Don't forget

Virginia + Tea Party= Hate Catholics. They aren't much more welcome in some parts of Virginia than some of those darky boys.

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Response to jehop61 (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:19 PM

70. I have

Catholic friends who are members of the Tea Party in Va. Go figure!

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Response to jehop61 (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:24 PM

71. Cuccinelli + Catholicism = Virginia + Tea Party

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Response to MNBrewer (Reply #71)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:10 PM

86. Cuccinelli + Virginia + Tea Party = Demo Sweep

!!

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #86)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:38 AM

119. That, too!

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:16 PM

12. Teahadists know nothing about Jesus Christ. nt

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Response to onehandle (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:52 AM

122. They got it wrong......

Jesus is SWEEPING!

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:17 PM

13. Meanwhile in heaven

 

God is expanding hell to make room for all the tea-baggers and random conservatives who have perverted the Christian teachings to suit their own objectives.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:18 PM

16. What you have done to the least of these, you have done unto me

Oh and here's what he's (mis)quoting--it goes on with the proverb of the fool who builds bigger barns for his surplus only to be told he is to die tonight--now what was that about distribution of wealth?

Luke 12:13-21
Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.” But he said to him, “Man, who made me a judge or arbitrator over you?” And he said to them, “Take care, and be on your guard against all covetousness, for one's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.” And he told them a parable, saying, “The land of a rich man produced plentifully, and he thought to himself, ‘What shall I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?

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Response to Maeve (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:28 PM

56. best way to reply to a fundy: in their own language.

I'm not in the habit of reading or memorizing bible passages, but this is a perfect correction to Mr. Bigpiousimportantrepukelawyerconserv-O-thug and his corruption.

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Response to Maeve (Reply #16)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:53 PM

62. Isaiah 32 :5-8

5 No longer will the fool be called noble nor the scoundrel be highly respected. 6 For the fool speaks folly, his mind is busy with evil: He practices ungodliness and spreads error concerning the LORD; the hungry he leaves empty and from the thirsty he withholds water. 7 The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just. 8 But the noble man makes noble plans, and by noble deeds he stands.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #62)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:58 PM

64. From King James version

The vile person shall be no more called liberal, nor the churl said to be bountiful.

6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

7 The instruments also of the churl are evil: he deviseth wicked devices to destroy the poor with lying words, even when the needy speaketh right.

8 But the liberal deviseth liberal things; and by liberal things shall he stand.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #62)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 11:05 AM

171. Isaiah kicked some biblical ass, didn't he? n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:18 PM

17. Maybe JC's weeping because Moseley can't read.

"Then he said to them, 'Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.'" - Luke 12:15

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Response to nyquil_man (Reply #17)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:19 AM

130. Quite possible!! nt

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:19 PM

18. He's referring to Luke >>>>

Luke 12:13-21:

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”

And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
“Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do, I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for man years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’
“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
“This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God.”



So, in other words, this Moseley moron has created his own crazed interpretation of one very small part of a passage from Luke. To say he took something out of context gives credit to Moseley for just making a minor error when, in fact, the guy is a raving lunatic...running amok in his smug AynRandism.

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:32 PM

25. its called cherry picking

its what wing nut and fools do all the time

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Response to weissmam (Reply #25)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:33 PM

26. It's even worse than that, really!

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:41 PM

59. "not rich toward God"....this is what pukes will never understand:

They interpret that to mean they must enrich their Church.

And the best way to do that is talk pious publicly, grab as much money as you can, however you can, in order to parade the size of your ever-increasing "tithing" or other "reliously motivated" spending.

Better yet, get involved in your church! Tell people what GAWWWD says they must do.

Real recipe for empowering psychopaths, narcissists and penny-ante leeches of all kinds and all financial levels--upper, middle and lower classes.

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Response to Roland99 (Reply #18)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:44 PM

60. Total misinterpretation

So Moseley is saying that in this passage Jesus is the representative of government and/or is acting as a surrogate FOR government, and because he won't arbitrate between the two brothers, then the government shouldn't either? Or is what Jesus is saying is what he said elsewhere: Caesar's belongs to Caesar and God's belongs to God? In other words, as others have noted on this post, the law and the government are different things and to the law and government belong arbitrating property rights. Jesus goes on to chide the man for his greed, something Moseley et al. always seem to miss.

According to OUR government, of, by, and for the people supposedly, we are mandated in the Constitution to "promote the general welfare." That means we take care of each other. And especially if we are supposedly a country based on Christian values, that means we are obligated to take care of the poor, sick, elderly, etc. That sound's a lot more like socialism than capitalism to me.

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Response to Dollysmom (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:05 PM

65. Exactly. Great post and welcome, Dollysmom!

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Response to Dollysmom (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:53 PM

76. And welcome Dollysmom

And yes it is a total misinterpitation...but what else is new with these fundamentalist...they do it all the time, ignoring the parts they don't like.
They are the modern day Pharisees, which Jesus had a lot to say about, and none of it was good.

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Response to Dollysmom (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:07 PM

84. welcome to du....

most excellent reply

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Response to Dollysmom (Reply #60)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:38 PM

96. Welcome to DU



Dollysmom!!!

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Response to Dollysmom (Reply #60)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:21 AM

121. I hate to nit pick, that passage has NOTHING to do with Government

 

The story is that people should help each other, not just look a ways to help oneself.

The phase cited is when a person asked Jesus to intervene with that person's brother to share the inheritance. Jesus said not and used the story of the Farmer and his barns to explain WHY he said no.

The farmer, with his bounty, tore down his barns and build bigger ones, but did NOTHING in regards to the people around him. The failure to help others with his bounty was a sin, for the Farmer valued the bounty more then he did GOD and this was seen in the Farmer's failure to take care of others. Jesus was trying to teach that money is NOT what God Values, but what God values is how you help others.




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Response to happyslug (Reply #121)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:46 PM

139. Yep

First thanks to all the welcomers!

Second, yes, happyslug, that was the point I was trying to make. Moseley was trying to make it seem that Jesus was acting "like" the government, and therefore, the government shouldn't get involved in redistribution of the wealth (arbitrating the dispute between the two brothers). Jesus is saying he's not the government at all and as you point out he focuses on our obligation to help one another. The Moseley's want things both ways: Christian Values should guide our government, but not when it comes to sharing the wealth. Hence, they illogically conclude, the government shouldn't intervene to redistribute wealth (which they interpret as programs like food stamps, Medicaid, school lunches, etc.). and, as someone else on this list posted, the Moseley types are heavily influenced by Calvin more than by Christ--the "you don't eat if you don't work" crowd (another misinterpretation of scripture). I'm not being critical of Calvin here, but of the way his teachings have been twisted.

Question: why don't they ever misinterpret the Gospels in FAVOR of the poor and the sick? Why do they never point out the places where Jesus condemns greed?

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:23 PM

19. He's not weeping. He's too busy deciding which football teams get to play in bowl games this year.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #19)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:15 PM

68. Jesus sure did want Auburn to beat Alabama last Saturday.

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:01 PM

80. :>)))))))))))))))))

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Response to olddad56 (Reply #68)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:34 PM

90. HILARIOUS



LMFAO

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:25 PM

20. Bwahahahhahahaha!

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:25 PM

21. I thought there was no SADNESS in Heaven? So no TEARS, right??

Geeze ... they can't even keep THAT straight!!!!

Dopes.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:28 PM

22. Remember that op-ed that argued Goldman Sachs is holier than Mother Theresa?

The only things the wingnuts worship are the GOP and Wall Street

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:30 PM

23. Are they trying to make more atheists?

Just wait til they get to heaven. Oh wait.

Tea Party -- more Christian than the Pope. Otay. Whatever. They think they are The Church.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:31 PM

24. wow

I am not religious at all, even in the least, but this guy is a dick head

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:35 PM

28. YES! Just look at how Jesus loved on those capitalists in the Temple courts! Oh wait. Never mind!

Sorry guys, I accidentally tripped over the leg of your money changing table. And never mind this whip. Mary Mag and I were just trying out some new stuff out back in the stables.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:14 PM

47. I don't think capitalism even existed back then.

The beginnings of modern capitalism started in the Western world around the Middle Ages. At least that's what I remember learning 20-odd years ago in college. But, I definitely know that socialism was around in the ancient world. Many people lived communally in villages. There were tribes that herded common livestock and plowed fields that fed everyone in the group. St. Peter formed a commune that he demanded everyone turn over all their worldly goods to for redistribution. Ananias and Sapphira didn't. And look what happened to them.

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Response to Rozlee (Reply #47)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:20 AM

131. But they were practising the greed and corruption part. nt

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #131)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:55 AM

137. Probably the real story behind the actual execution of Jesus.

The actual rabble rouser, not the Mithran-esque legend his followers made him out to be. Anyone who advocates a revolutionary and populist egalitarianism usually riles up the guys in the higher pecking orders.

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Response to Rozlee (Reply #137)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:13 AM

157. It was the ONLY time he ever went OFF on anyone like this. There was a point to this.

When you go to church, go to church. Don't be distracted by worldly stuff.

I know you don't get the simplicity of the message, and may not be someone who appreciates church but you can see the seeds for the whole reich wing movement in these sales out in front of the temple where people are supposed to go and quietly think about their lives and listen to ideas to make their lives better maybe help others as well.

The Pharisees who allowed this to happen on the temple grounds were making a mockery of the faith. That may be fine with you, but it produces the very type of Christians who are tearing our country apart. FAKE ones. People who are about the show and not the personal life of contemplation and self betterment.

JUDAS betrayed Jesus because Jesus WASN'T like this more often. Judas and his group wanted a militant leader who would rise up and free them from the Roman Empire.

People in power get riled up when others want equality. Doesn't matter how nicely it is put. Jesus had some REALLY revolutionary ideas and he DID piss a lot of people off. So did Ghandi and Martin Luther King.

Jesus didn't advocate going out and fighting battles, he advocated turning the other cheek, giving your shirt to the man who takes your cloak because then you are naked and the person taking everything from you is shamed in that world order at that time. It taught people even if someone takes every THING from you, you are still empowered if you GIVE even more willingly because then it's about free choice vs being cowed into submission.

He advocated being a community that cares for one another and rises about pettiness. He taught a lot of good things and you pull ONE incident out - completely mis-interpret it and think you know better than people who have spent their life studying his life. Kind of rude don't you think?

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #157)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 09:50 AM

169. I have no idea what you interpreted from my post.

I made absolutely no reference to the temple incidence, which is what I'm inferring you're talking about. The comment I made was that the scriptural Jesus preached a message of radical egalitarianism that at that time was unheard of. He upset the status quo by associating with people that were considered outcasts and marginalized in his time such as lepers, tax-collectors, prostitutes, and the handicapped, whom people in those days considered cursed by sins committed by themselves or their parents. And I'm aware of the type of mentality that existed at the time of the warrior Messiah that Jews believed would rescue them from Roman rule and that Judas was believed to have been a Zealot, like his fellow apostle, Simon. And you and I do have differing philosophies, which I address in my post. I believe in a historical Jesus, that preached a gentle message of peace, compassion, turning the other cheek and pacifism; a message that in his day was revolutionary and stirred the masses and got the powers-that-be in a furor. However, I follow the school of thought that Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine did and don't ascribe Jesus with divinity, hence my reference to Mithras. That might cause you distress, but although I gave up on religion a long time ago, I still admire the teachings of Jesus. I'm just puzzled how you worked the temple incident into my post, although I don't think it detracts from the story of Jesus at all.

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Response to yellowcanine (Reply #28)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:11 PM

95. According to the Bible, Jesus fashioned a scourge and went about beating his

fellow human beings with it in the temple.

So much for gentle Jesus, meek and mild. Sounds pretty violent to me.

As far as Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers, the moneychangers were agents of the Temple. Jews were not allowed to offer anything but Jewish coin as an offering to the temple. The money-changers actually offered a service to their fellow Jews, many who had traveled to Jerusalem from distant points, and did not possess the "correct" coinage to offer. The Temple money changers saved them the trip to the Roman money changers, who would have undoubtably gouged them far worse than did the Jewish money changers.

Jesus upsetting their tables was the act of a megalomaniac, the equivalent of tearing up the flower shop at the hospital.

Of course, along with the money changers, there were the people selling animals for sacrifice. Each Jewish male was expected to make a sacrifice of an animal while at the Temple. One could bring their own animal to sacrifice, but one risked the animal being rejected as impure by the rabbis. Buying an "approved" animal from the approved venders of such animals was a lot easier...and was probably a service that most out-of-town-just-here-for-Passover Jews appreciated.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #95)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:37 AM

117. Cool story. You invented it from nothing, but I like your style.

 

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #117)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:17 AM

118. I'm not that creative. The story has many sources:

Money changing was very common in the Roman Near East, where there was a proliferation of currency systems and standards. In Palestine, as in Egypt, each district had its basilikai trapezai ("royal bank" retained from Hellenistic times (Jos., Life 38), and probably each village had its own money changer (cf. Sif. Deut., 306).

In the period of the Second Temple vast numbers of Jews streamed to Palestine and Jerusalem "out or every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5), taking with them considerable sums of money in foreign currencies. This is referred to in the famous instance of Jesus' driving the money changers out of the Temple (Matt. 21:12). Not only did these foreign coins have to be changed but also ordinary deposits were often handed over to the Temple authorities for safe deposit in the Temple treasury (Jos., Wars 6:281–2). Thus Jerusalem became a sort of central bourse and exchange mart, and the Temple vaults served as "safe deposits" in which every type of coin was represented (TJ, Ma'as. Sh. 1:2, 52d, and parallels). The business of money exchange was carried out by the shulḥani ("exchange banker", who would change foreign coins into local currency and vice versa (Tosef., Shek. 2:13; Matt. 21:12). People coming from distant countries would bring their money in large denominations rather than in cumbersome small coins. The provision of small change was a further function of the shulḥani (cf. Sif. Deut., 306; Ma'as Sh., 2). For both of these kinds of transactions the shulḥani charged a small fee (agio), called in rabbinic literature a kolbon (a word of doubtful etymology but perhaps from the Greek κόλλυβος "small coin"; TJ, Shek. 1:6, 46b). This premium seems to have varied from 4 percent to 8 percent (Shek. 1:6, et al.). The shulḥani served also as a banker, and would receive money on deposit for investment and pay out an interest at a fixed rate (Matt. 25:27), although this was contrary to Jewish law (see below; *Moneylending).

Thus the shulḥani fulfilled three major functions: (a) foreign exchange, (b) the changing of large denominations into small ones, and vice versa, and (c) banking. Three terms for "money-changer" are found in the New Testament: (a) kermatistēs (John 2:14), (b) kollybistēs (Matt. 21:12), and (c) trapezitēs (literally, shulḥani; Matt. 25:27, et al.) It seems probable that these three terms correspond to the three functions of the shulḥani outlined above. Thus kermatistēs, from kermatizō. "to cut small," is one who gives small change; kollybistēs, from kollybos, changed foreign currency; while the trapezitēs was a banker (from trapeza, "table".

The shulḥanim in Jerusalem used to set up their "tables" in the outer court of the Temple for the convenience of the numerous worshipers, especially those from foreign countries (Matt. 21:12–13). Excavations around the Temple walls have uncovered stores or kiosks, some of which, it has been surmised, were occupied by money changers. The Mishnah states that on the 15th of Adar, every year, "tables" were set up in the provinces (or in Jerusalem) for the collection of the statutory annual half-shekel, and on the 25th of Adar they were set up in the Temple itself (Shek. 1:3). The activity of the Jewish banker, shulḥani, was of a closely defined nature, as his transactions had to be in accordance with the biblical prohibition against taking interest (ribit). The Talmud records much information relating to his activities. An additional and interesting feature of his business was the payment on request of sums deposited with him for that purpose (BM 9:12).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0014_0_14119.html

And,

The Jewish leaders had instructed the people that at Jerusalem they were to be taught to worship God. Here during the Passover week large numbers assembled, coming from all parts of Palestine, and even from distant lands. The temple courts were filled with a promiscuous throng. Many were unable to bring with them the sacrifices that were to be offered up as typifying the one great Sacrifice. For the convenience of these, animals were bought and sold in the outer court of the temple. Here all classes of people assembled to purchase their offerings. Here all foreign money was exchanged for the coin of the sanctuary.

Every Jew was required to pay yearly a half shekel as "a ransom for his soul;" and the money thus collected was used for the support of the temple. Ex. 30:12-16. Besides this, large sums were brought as freewill offerings, to be deposited in the temple treasury. And it was required that all foreign coin should be changed for a coin called the temple shekel, which was accepted for the service of the sanctuary. The money changing gave opportunity for fraud and extortion, and it had grown into a disgraceful traffic, which was a source of revenue to the priests.

The dealers demanded exorbitant prices for the animals sold, and they shared their profits with the priests and rulers, who thus enriched themselves at the expense of the people. The worshipers had been taught to believe that if they did not offer sacrifice, the blessing of God would not rest on their children or their lands. Thus a high price for the animals could be secured; for after coming so far, the people would not return to their homes without performing the act of devotion for which they had come.

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/da/da16.html

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Response to stopbush (Reply #118)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:44 AM

120. Thanks for the link. It's informative.

 

The made-up part, as it turns out, was your line about the money changers being the equivalent of hospital gift shop flower sellers. I don't believe florists are charging 4-8% on "large sums" of money that needed conversion. Whatever one thinks of Jesus' money changer incident, it's part of a long history of common people resenting the excesses of bankers. After all, he was a revolutionary of sorts.

PS: the indigent women were being gouged for doves--their contribution to the sacrifice, and the cheapest (but most marked-up) item on the menu. JC was pissed.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #120)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:49 PM

143. My point was that back in the day, the Jews accepted the exchange rate fee

as being business as usual.

My point in comparing it to a modern hospital flower/gift shop was that such shops typically extract a premium price for the services and goods they offer, usually to people who are susceptible to allowing themselves to being gouged as 1. the shop is the only option in the hospital, and 2. the customer is often mentally distracted by worry over the person for whom they're purchasing the flowers. People accept it as business as usual.

BTW - the second link I provided which dealt with the selling of animals for sacrifice was a bit biased against the sellers and was obviously written by a Xian whose learned worldview tends to make any "foe" of Xianity appear in the worst light possible. If one looks at Jesus overturning the tables from the point of view of the businessmen Jesus attacked, you might think "what the fuck??"

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #117)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:30 AM

133. Not completely, but he is taking the side of the money changers.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #95)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:26 AM

132. NOT fellow human beings as it were - Money Launderers who constantly overcharged during the exchange

The Pharisees and the money changers were in cahoots, and Rome looked the other way.

NO ONE in that scenario but Jesus was willing to stand up for the common man and see that he be treated fairly.

YES he was pissed because the business of faith is not BUISNESS, it's faith and he was all about seperation of corruption and church.

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #132)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:39 PM

147. According to one Jewish-sourced site I referenced above,

the Temple money changers charged a 4-8% fee for their services. That's at least double what a currency exchange operating today would charge.

But considering that many Xian sects today expect their members to tithe a full 10% of their yearly gross salary to their church, a one-time charge of 4% on half a Shekle isn't so bad.

BTW - anyone who thinks religion isn't a business - and in the most-pejorative sense of the word - is deluding oneself.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #147)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:35 AM

159. There ARE many churches that operate on a business model and for various reasons.

Part of it is to show fiscal responsibility to people who are donating to the cause.

People need a place to come and worship and land and buildings must be bought and constructed. Gotta have money and a plan to get that done. Various programs go on and helping the community as well. Other non-profits do very similar things and you don't hear the same kind of sneer that people here use against religion.

AND for certain types of Reich Wing - Chrystal Cathederal - Money will make you happy kind of churches, I agree. BUT don't act like that is the ONLY thing Religion ever does.

JESUS advocated a less is more kind of life. Most Catholic preists and nuns take vows of poverty.

Pope Francis has already put that one Arch Bishop out of his fancy house and turned it over to the community as a lesson against using church funds for lavish digs. Pope Francis doesn't sleep in the palacial Vatican apartments most of the Popes have used. He's taken more common rooms. He's making every overture possible to be a Pope for the real people out there and not just those with big pockets. It's a risk, but it will probably actually bring a lot of Catholics BACK to the faith.

Christians who have really studied the life of Christ understand that Jesus was a Radical Liberal. That's what we want to follow. Someone who has the courage to stand up when people are being taken advantage of, and the whole 10% isn't a recent phenomenom, it was also part of that time period too. SO it was usary fee's above and beyond the tithe and like sales tax of today, it affected the poor dispurportionately.

Jesus pointed out to a widow who gave something equivilent to a penny at that time, but it was ALL SHE HAD and he said she was giving more faithfully than the pharisees who threw tons of money around, but it was only chump change to them. Jesus saw the inequality at the time and the way the pharisees took advantage of people's gullibility and he called them on it. Another reason they wanted him out of their hair and gave him over to Rome to execute.



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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:36 PM

29. They hate Catholics

When I was a kid growing up in the South, Catholics were the most hated denomination. Even more than Jews.

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Response to SansACause (Reply #29)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:19 PM

50. for the Red Scare, everything they said about the Commies was what they'd been saying about the Jews

since 1910, and about the Catholics since the 1850s, and about the Masons since 1800, and about...

a hundred years ago they liked the Muslims!


heck, they liked Osama back in the 80s... (and now we like al Qaeda, if they stick to Libya and Syria)

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:36 PM

30. Sorry Loser

Jesus was the original socialist, he was for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, not rich fat racists and /or banksters.

As John Fugelsang says, Jesus never asked for a co pay.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:41 PM

31. Guy probably doesn't remember Jesus and the moneylenders

Hell, I'm not even sure if he's read the Bible.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:42 PM

32. rec'd because xtain nonsense should be broadly displayed....

Jesus says greed is good!

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:44 PM

34. They just have no idea what's in that book, do they?

It'd be remarkable if it wasn't so abhorrent.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 04:45 PM

36. Oh please!

These so called "Christians" wouldn't recognize JC at all. Plus JC loves everyone no matter what color, preference, et al.

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Response to Iliyah (Reply #36)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:58 PM

94. Remember when Jesus called the Caananite woman a dog?

Lotsa love there.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #94)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:56 PM

99. Remember when Jesus cursed the fig tree? nt

 

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Response to Ace Acme (Reply #99)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:06 AM

113. In many respects, Jesus was a fairly loathsome creature.

His whole "if you love your family too much you can't love me" narcissism leaves an awfully sour taste in this father's mouth.

His "don't have a care for the morrow" crapola doesn't sit well either.

But, from what I can tell, Jesus is a fiction, so it doesn't really matter.

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Response to Ace Acme (Reply #99)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:49 AM

127. That was a later interpolation in an era where Mithraism was a serious competitor to Christianity

Guess what tree was sacred to Mithra?

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:02 PM

38. So sayeth the

Kock Puppets. Rofl

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:04 PM

39. No! Jesus is weeping in heaven because

 

of you jerks. STFU.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:04 PM

40. Better to go with a Protestant preacher of "personal prosperity". Bible be damned. n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:06 PM

41. Catholic School 50 years ago

 

Pope Francis is just getting back to basics which I heard in school 50 years ago; not all the BS about abortion, BC, gays, etc., but the compassion and caring for the poor, sick, and elderly. I am no longer Catholic because of all the other "doctrine", but nice to see this Pope cares more about these issues which are on a collusion course with the basic Catholic US Repukes minset. Watching this as a former Catholic and very AMUSED.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:07 PM

42. Just one verse

He may be right. Jesus may, after all, be crying in heaven. Having his name invoked so cynically. Having his words spun so thoroughly. A simple verse describing a single action has been unrecognizably twisted and distorted - all to justify the economic system he himself spoke against.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:08 PM

43. Lucifer is snickering in Hell over Moseley's twisted defense of capitalism

I know that for a fact, because the same source that tells Moseley what Jesus is doing up there in heaven keeps me equally informed on what the devil is doing down there in his hot little den of iniquity.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:10 PM

44. Well, here is some other New Testament stuff

"Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Matthew 19:21
"For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in." Matthew 25:35
"They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." Mark 12:40
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because He has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed." Luke 4:18
"So he replied to the messengers, Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor.'" Luke 7:22 [ E-book: The Kingdom strikes back ]
"Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys." Luke 12:33
"But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind." Luke 14:13
"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'" Luke 18:22
"Beware of the teachers of the law . . . They devour your widows' houses . . . Such men will be punished severely." Luke 20:46-47
"'Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it." John 12:5
"In Joppa there was a disciple named Tabitha (which, when translated, is Dorcas), who was always doing good and helping the poor." Acts 9:36
"Cornelius stared at him in fear. What is it, Lord?' he asked. The angel answered, Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.'" Acts 10:4
"After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings." Acts 24:17
"On the contrary: If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.'" Romans 12:20
"For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem." Romans 15:26
"All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do." Galatians 2:10
"Give proper recognition to those widows who are really in need." 1 Timothy 5:3
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." James 1:27
"Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, 'Here's a good seat for you,' but say to the poor man, 'You stand there' or 'Sit on the floor by my feet,' have you not discriminated among yourselves and becomes judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him? But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court?" James 2:2-6
"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth." 1 John 3:17-18

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Response to mindem (Reply #44)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:46 PM

74. None of which actually refutes Moseley's central point

His argument was that Jesus addressed his comments to individuals, not to governments. But it's a stupid argument, because pope Francis's comments were specifically directed at "trickle-down" economic policies which are practiced by governments, not individuals. It's a bit like saying that because Jesus never specifically mentioned Argentina, the pope is forbidden to ever comment on issues relating to the country of his birth.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:10 PM

45. Jesus Christ never lived in a nation like ours and did not advocate overthrow of the ones He did

live in. Instead he told his disciples to pay their taxes to one of them when asked. These people have totally ignored the Bible they claim to believe in.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:11 PM

46. Only in America would the public tolerate this crap.

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:14 PM

48. Hey, Catholic League guy! Are you going to put up with this shit?


I'm talking to YOU, Bill Donohue. Take a break from trashing Bill Maher and direct a little of your whining at this Moseley asshole.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #48)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:22 PM

51. That is a great point. Where is he?

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:16 PM

49. The Jesus I worship is not a conservative.

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:26 PM

53. "Teasus"



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Response to KansDem (Reply #53)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:54 PM

63. Ridiculous

The Christian rightists won't accept that hippie unless he gets a shave and a haircut.

That suit and tie isn't fooling them one bit.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #63)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 11:18 AM

138. Well, there's always this one...


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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:26 PM

54. Unexpected Pope Bonus:

He just may prompt the RW evangelicals to get so caught up in "correcting" his theology that they let their old-time anti-Catholic hate out in the open.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:27 PM

55. The gummint . . .

. . . isn't supposed to intervene to stop poverty, but it says right there in the Bible, the gummint is supposed to intervene between a woman and her doctor!! And the gummint isn't supposed to then intervene to help her child grow to adulthood with good healthcare and an education, cuz the gummint isn't supposed to intervene with food stamps or schools! Dammit!!It's all right there in the Bible!!! Jeeezus was a capitalist cuz he lived in the Roman Empire which was capitalist! Um, an empire that had slavery!!! That's right! And if God hadn't intended slavery, he wouldn't have allowed THAT! And besides, those slaves were too ignorant and lazy to become capitalists and get OUT of slavery like it says in the Bible!!! And Jeeeezus said that the gummint is of the people, by the people, and for the people . . . Um, ok he didn't say that, but 'Merka is a Christian country!! And that means every man for himself! Self-reliance! I got mine, fuck you!!! Um . . .

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:29 PM

57. Here is a good cartoon about the tea party and Jesus

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:30 PM

58. Actually, there was a response from Jesus

“Take care! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of possessions.”

The question the teabagger is refering was made by one brother who was unhappy with his share of an older brothers inheritance. It had nothing to dowith the treatment of the poor or even distribution or wealth.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 05:50 PM

61. I truly dislike religion

When O when will we finally out grow Santa Clause. Its not lookin good.

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Response to Buck Stopin Harry (Reply #61)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:16 PM

105. Welcome to DU



Buck Stopin Harry!!!

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Response to blue14u (Reply #105)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:14 PM

145. thanks much Blue

Tell me more about Warren

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:10 PM

66. And then there is this...

The narrative of the "Cleansing of the Temple" tells of Jesus and the money changers, and occurs in all four canonical gospels of the New Testament.

In this Gospel episode Jesus and his disciples travel to Jerusalem for Passover, where he expels the money changers from the Temple, accusing them of turning the Temple into a den of thieves through their commercial activities.[1][2] In the Gospel of John Jesus refers to the Temple as "my Father’s house" thus in some views making a claim to being the Son of God[3] although it is common in the Abrahamic religions to refer to God as God the Father.

And this...

"Render unto Caesar" is the beginning of a phrase attributed to Jesus in the synoptic gospels, which reads in full, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

(Wikipedia)

So, IMHO, Jesus most certainly would disapproved of the Wall Street robber barons and said that one should pay their fair share of taxes.

Even a fictional character in the Repub's and TP's play book would reprimand them today for being total hipocrites.

But they pick and choose the text to promote their own agenda. My ex is like this. That is why he is my ex.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:19 PM

69. Obama stated it so succinctly in 2008

"They are not only stupid, they are proud of it" or something close to that.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:46 PM

73. LOL

a real nutcase that really turns people off to his kind of religion.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:52 PM

75. So what chapter and which verse? These two Bible aspects are strangely absent. That's what 12 years

of Catholic school education has done to me; made me a pedantic liberal.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 06:59 PM

77. Christ does like to appear in a lot of store bought food items

 

Clearly he uses capitalism to spread the word

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:00 PM

78. Mr. Moseley is a major nut job

 

He was, briefly, an unwanted advisor to the Senate Campaign of Christine "I'm not a witch" O'Donnell.

After the campaign was over, he sued her for his time and lost.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:26 PM

87. These idiots are dumber than a box of rocks....

 

Really.......

In Jesus' time the social network was largely tribal or religious. It was totally dependent on individuals helping others.

But this moron doesn't understand that humanity has evolved beyond that structure and that we have agreed a social engagement where the entire society commits to support the lowest among us.

They fail to recognize that Jesus often spoke in parables which communicated a core message but around which the story was largely unimportant. The same applies here. Jesus would recognize that we live in a vastly more complex society where the idea that you could rely on your tribe or your religious institutions to provide for the vast needs of people is unsustainable.

I have no doubt that Jesus would view the societal safety net as God's creations finally coming together to promote justice, fairness and generosity as nearly an ultimate good. The fact he has to frown on the GOP as those that are so self-serving and hateful makes him cry.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:29 PM

88. Pic and website

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Response to underpants (Reply #88)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 08:40 PM

97. If arrogance had a face, this is what it would look like.

And it's surprisingly common.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:30 PM

89. Christ the logician.

Yes, i am familiar with these lines of propaganda. I don't need to know who is Moseley, they are legion. Such pseudo-Christians, or neo-Pharisees search to find a phrase they can wrench out of context, and graft onto their agenda.

One typical fundamental argument this sort uses, says Jesus speaks only to the individual (this is a basis of protestantism). No, Jesus speaks to all men. All men are brothers, and this was presented early in Genesis. Cain said to God, "And the Lord said to Cain: Where is thy brother Abel? And he answered, I know not: am I my brother's keeper?". -- Genesis iv. 9. Cain was wrong. This message is re-inforced in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, which is in the Gospel of Luke x. 30-7. We are responsible for each other, a good neighbour (and by extension--a Christian) is one that helps those in need. We are a community. Christianity is a communal religion, it is not an individual pursuit.

Christ was a logician. As Christ logically taught we have only one master: it is God or Mammon. This principle is even taught in some business schools, in that, they acknowledge one can not concentrate on two demands at once. One will be primary.

No man can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one, and love the other: or he will sustain the one, and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. -- Matthew vi. 23.

Capitalism (which was generated in the area where Calvinistic protestantism met the industrial revolution) is a form of mammon worship. Capitalism wants to maximise profit. Capital is stored and accumulated labor. Without this cache of labor--there is no capital. Profit is receipts minus expenses. In every capitalistic business exchange the goal is to increase this vigorish. To accelerate and expand the principle: to get the most, while giving the least. To reduce to the ultimate simplicity: everything for nothing. THIS IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF JESUS CHRIST, AND HIS WAY. He gave all, and demanded no material in return. A capitalist is a materialist (some of this definition).

Christian economic theories were: the early, simple communism of the early church, the theory of just prices of Augustine, the distributivism of Chesterton. In capitalism, as we know it to-day, there is given great power to the owner, or the chief economic officer, or simply management. In his business he demands to be as powerful as faro of old, an absolute despot. The dissenter is to be crushed, his prescribed role is to be silent and obedient. This is rather standard US business management theory. In regards to the Church of Christ, Peter’s Barque, it is anathema.

The greed of capitalism is complete. Community and justice are not to be considered. The desire is maximisation of profit. How is that done? Reducing cost of production, and increasing the price. When this is done fully, the product which is the goods and the labor would be reduced to zero, and the price would be all. Which is an absurdity. A nothing that costs all. A complete concentration of wealth, with no distribution. To receive everything, to give nothing.

The petty viciousness of the Republicans (or "Conservatives", and their teabaggers contingent has no limit. Any action of government that would help the non-rich they would not permit. Their arguments reduce to the principle and cry "the rich are too poor, and the poor too rich; we must rectify this by all means". They worship Mammon, and hate the poor.

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:47 PM

92. That is a fantastic post

thank you

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:15 PM

103. Amazing & thank you

 

Do you write professionally, and if so, where can I find your publications.

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Response to Caretha (Reply #103)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:47 PM

109. Well, thank you too.

Hell-o Caretha,

No. I have not made a dime in such. I wanted to be read. I have been quoted in the local daily, but they have never published one letter. I am part of the proletariat (construction, but practically blacklisted: age, politics in the local, not built like a sprinter), often without employment. My only writing (and photographic) outlet has been a few internet journals. The chief being a voice from the rustbelt. Most of the post, was a few sentences here and there that i quickly cut and pasted, i often have particuular subjects i gravitate towards.

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Response to rustbeltvoice (Reply #89)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:43 PM

108. Welcome to DU



rustbeltvoice!!!

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Response to blue14u (Reply #108)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:53 PM

110. Thank you, Blue 14u.

It feels good to be received warmly.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:43 PM

91. "Jesus never said the government should help the poor," is a favorite rightie talking point

However, think of what the government was in the 1st century Middle East: It was the Roman Empire. Yes, at that time, the Jews were living in the province of Judea under the Roman Empire.

Now if you think about the Romans, their thing was conquering other people and exploiting them and occasionally putting them to death in gruesome ways if they objected. This was an empire where infanticide was legal and where the testimony of a slave was admissible only under torture. This was an empire where huge audiences gathered to watch men fight to the death, and not on TV, but right in front of them, a live "snuff film," as it were.

Have you seen Terry Jones' series, available on Netflix, "Barbarians"? He notes that some of the so-called barbarians thought the Romans were over-the-top on violence and cruelty.

Would the Roman Empire ever have organized official charity for its conquered people? It was about as likely as the Romans converting to Judaism and becoming pacifists.

But there is evidence that among themselves, the Jews of Jesus' time used community resources to help the poor. Custom demanded that people not harvest all their crops so that the poor could "glean" the leftovers.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #91)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 05:49 PM

152. I think there was a local taxation right to most roman's provinces....nt

 

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Response to Sand Wind (Reply #152)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 07:57 PM

154. But the bulk of it still went to the Romans

and let's face it, who was the local Jewish puppet king? Herod. Good luck getting him to fund charity.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #154)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:26 PM

155. Right, there is that....

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 07:51 PM

93. He no

doubt thinks Jesus was a blue eyed blonde white guy as well. There was a time when stupid people knew when to STFU, now they get elected to office by the GOP.

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Response to ctsnowman (Reply #93)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:53 PM

150. I wonder if the USA would be a "Xian nation" if everybody realized

that Jesus looked a lot more like Jerry Stiller than Jeffrey Hunter.



Source: Popular Mechanics - The Real Face Of Jesus
Advances in forensic science reveal the most famous face in history.


http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/forensics/1282186

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:11 PM

102. These people are truly INSANE.

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:40 PM

107. Eat shit, 'bagger. In case you didn't notice, no one gives a damn what you think.

 

Scream into your pillow, methbagger--it's considered entertainment at this point, because you long ago lost the privilege of being taken seriously.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 10:31 PM

111. Jesus told me that teabillies need a come to Him meeting and quick.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 2, 2013, 10:32 PM

112. The Bible Is Far More Leftist Than Right Wing

First, there are several Biblical quotes that directly endorse collective ownership, which are often ignored by the evangelical Christians:

And all that believed were together, and had all things in common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.


Acts 2: 44, 45

And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,
Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.


Acts 4:32-37

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing.
Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Romans 13:1-7

Second, in direct contradiction to those who preach the prosperity gospel, i.e., that being rich reflects the Lord's favor and being poor reflects God's disfavor, the Bible contains numerous provisions expressing hostility to the rich:

"Jesus entered the temple area and drove out all who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves."

- Matthew 21:12

"On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple area and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves,"

- Mark 11:15

"In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money.

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.

To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

- John 2:14-16

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

- Mark 10:25

Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

- Luke 18:25

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24

Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

- Luke 18:25

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

- Matthew 19:24


“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows”

- I Timothy 6:10

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #112)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:22 AM

115. I can thump that Bible right at them. I say they're going to hell. If they act up, I repeat myself!

Good selection to make the points there. But I suspect most of them never read the Bible, anyway. They listen to their RW pastor, televangelists, politicans and hate radio to get their version of things. Sick.

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Response to TomCADem (Reply #112)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 04:07 PM

151. Then why does Jesus say that heaven is a kingdom, rather than a democracy?

Democracies DID exist back in those days. Yet Jesus said heaven was a kingdom, and that he was the king. Kings rule, they don't share power. There are no votes in heaven. And kingdoms are usually ruled by men, with women being second-class citizens.

Sounds like North Korea to me.

Jesus could have said heaven was like a democracy, but he didn't.

I'm always astounded that people who live in a democracy are itching to die to spend eternity in the gulag of a kingdom.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #151)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 02:17 AM

161. Jesus NEVER called himself King.

He didn't even like people to call him "Good Teacher" because that was like people worshiping him and he put that aside for God only.

He indicated that he had a place in His Father's Kingdom and that people would be there with him if they followed the way of truth - simplest version, love God 1st, yourself and others equally.

When his disciples argued about who should be at his right hand, the place of honor, Jesus went about washing everyone's feet and took the most lowly position to show them that it wasn't about compettion. Their squabbling about it was addressed a few times - enough so that he said that the last shall be first and the first shall be last. That to strive to be most important in Heaven is to miss the point entirely.

The people who want to go to Heaven are people who'd like to have the time and energy to really give peace a chance. Who are fine helping others and not being the first to get this or that new toy. It's a good place for those who can deal with that vibe and with being in some sort of connected state with the energy of God and others who have passed on. It's a place to evolve to.

Earthly Kingdoms are nothing like Heaven because whereas God cares about everyone, Kings just don't have that energy or time. They are finite beings with bodily requirements. A person's spirit can rise above the pettiness even here on Earth at times, so why couldn't it after death? Energy doesn't vanish it just changes form even according to science.

Jesus also taught Christians to call God their Father in Heaven. Living in a Kingdom when you are kids of the King, isn't a bad gig. Do you like your family? Can you understand that it might just be like this really large family reunion for human kind getting to meet and greet and hang out for eternity?

Even on Earth righteous Kings don't Lord it over their people. Their purpose is to make sure the kingdom runs smoothly and that the people are content enough to live in relative peace with each other. If mere humans can do that, then what about souls who have evolved from this level to something more? What about a being that has been here since before time began?

Maybe it's all just a collective fantasy but if it isn't hurting others then people ought to just get their big old noses out of other people's beliefs and let them be.

I don't advocate trying to convert or judge anyone who has made up their mind that God doesn't exist. But when they try to tell ME what is and isn't true about God, I just have to ask, HOW can you even THINK to know? Obviously you are missing a lot of Theological background due to the general statements you're making. There are complete ideas that run through Jesus's various teachings and even if a person only studied what he said and did he explains why the Kindom of Heaven is different from kingdoms on Earth.

You don't need a democracy in heaven because everyone is equal and it isn't about all this decision making and goal setting. It's about BEING who you are in spirit and connecting with God and others in the world of the spirit.

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #161)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:29 AM

164. +1 Thoughtful post, Tigress. n/t

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #161)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:22 PM

172. Jesus never called himself a king?

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” - John 18:36

Notice, Jesus didn't say "my father's kingdom," or "my father's servants."

Nope, it's HIS kingdom and HIS servants. In fact, Jesus here refers to his disciples as "my servants."

Who has servants in a kingdom? That would be the king.

I understand where you're coming from in your post, especially the special dispensation we allow for always assuming that Jesus is meek and loving. Thus we were all indoctrinated as children.

But the Bible tells us a different story about a Jesus who fashioned a scourge and beat his fellow human beings with it, a megalomaniac who demanded fealty from everyone: "if anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire (the lake of fire), and they are burned" - John 15:6-8.

This is the Jesus who called the Caananite woman "a dog" in Matthew.

And, there's this:

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison,
and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or
a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of
the least of these, you did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
- Matthew 25:41- 46

You have your version of Jesus - nicely supported by your interpretation as displayed in your post - and then there's the version of Jesus that comes through his own words and actions. I really don't see why you would assume that such a person's heavenly kingdom would treat all of its inhabitants equally or fairly.

And that doesn't even get into how a loving god could condemn whole segments of frail humanity - billions and billions of "souls" - to everlasting torture because, what? They passed a homeless person on the street and failed to help them?

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Response to stopbush (Reply #172)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 09:18 PM

173. You are taking it out of context. A) He's being accused of trying to disrupt Roman Rule.

The Pharisees didn't want the common people to be lifted up so they took the talk about Jesus being the "Messiah" or "Savior" and tried to convince Pontius Pilate that he was a credible threat to the Jewish state of affairs where they accepted Roman rule as law. Telling him that made him "King" of the Jews. Judas was with a group that really wanted a military coup and Jesus wasn't militant enough for them so he threw Jesus under the chariot (no buses back then, but you know what I mean.)

So he's saying that the "kingdom" he describes is not of this world because IF he had a kingdom in this world, he'd have followers that would prevent him from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. His disciples DID try to stop them, even cut someone, but Jesus told them "No" and went along peacefully.

Jesus also talks about ALL who believe are "sons and daughters" of the God. There are multiple passages where he sets things clear, but he is letting things be murky at this point because he's supposed to be executed to fulfill the conditions around his life.


FULL
33 Pilate then went back inside. He called Jesus over and asked, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

34 Jesus answered, “Are you asking this on your own or did someone tell you about me?”

35 “You know I’m not a Jew!” Pilate said. “Your own people and the chief priests brought you to me. What have you done?”

36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom doesn’t belong to this world. If it did, my followers would have fought to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. No, my kingdom doesn’t belong to this world.”

37 “So you are a king,” Pilate replied.

“You are saying that I am a king,” Jesus told him. “I was born into this world to tell about the truth. And everyone who belongs to the truth knows my voice.”






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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #173)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 11:39 PM

178. Sorry, but Jesus thinks he's a king.

The cute "I know you are but what am i" word game he plays with Pilate notwithstanding.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #178)

Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:59 PM

183. He knows who he is, but not any type of Earthly king and if you don't get that....

He's the son of God. Ok. A Prince who will be King at some point, but he's not claiming that title here on Earth. The Kingdom of Heaven isn't anything like here and it isn't about politics and such. That's why people have to clear their minds and hearts of all the bs and get centered.

The reason Rome is involved is because somehow Jesus is challenging their status quo. He's being called a rebel leader of a plot to lead the Jews against Roman rule. That is the supposed rational for Jesus being crucified. It's a lie, but Jesus let's it ride because his martyrdom is meant to be. He's willingly laying his life down for others.

Yeah, he got testy with people at times, but he still came through for those who stuck with him.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #172)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 10:02 PM

174. B) To get to Heaven, you need to break from ALL the BS. You took Matthew 25 out of context also.

People who really want to be in Heaven are going there not to "get" something, but to "be with God" and "be at peace" It may not be everyone's cup of tea. Probably boring to many people.

BUT the alternative simply is what it is. People who don't focus and join with this energy and aren't willing to let go of all the crap of this world just don't belong. It's order or chaos and to be part of the order, one has to let go of the chaos. You can't have both.

People who "THINK" they are going to Heaven because they "did all the right things" but spent their life hating gays and persecuting them, voting against feeding the poor because rich people need more money for gold toilet seats will be in for a shock. That is what Matthew 25 is about. People who do kind things for others without judgment and work to better the lives of others may not be focused each moment on doing that good for Jesus, but Jesus said that HE would see it that way.

ON Earth he is a servant of God, a messenger and a martyr but he is also truly God's son, so a Prince of Peace and when EVERYTHING is over, a King in the Kingdom of Heaven but he also promised his disciples would be Kings at that time as well.

Yeah, he's going to call people on their hypocrisy. People in the reich wing think all their hate is in the name of God, but Jesus said in Matthew 25 - NO IT ISN'T. People who live their life the best they can and still feel a bit lowly and unworthy will still be brought into Heaven because God can work with a willing soul, but not an arrogant one.

Just think of how difficult it is to try and talk to a teabagger and convince them about the simplest of realities. Obama - born in the USA. End of story. You are sane, rational. You have the facts at your disposal, but their own delusional convictions are more important than any fact. Everything Obama does that is good they see as evil. IF you can't work with a teabagger, think of how much harder it is to work with a whole world of people that think every new guru has the answer, when the truth is simpler and more complicated than that.

SIMPLE: Jesus said, "Love one another as I have loved you and love God most of all."
It isn't for everyone, I guess, but I think it's a great way to live my life so I don't have regrets. Jesus was willing to lay his life down so that others could believe in forgiveness. The whole idea of man heading to Hell was already written and people thought they had to be perfect to get out of it. Instead, Jesus said, "I'll pay the price, just accept that and live everyday going forward without sin." He set up the disciples to help people forgive themselves when they made mistakes and move on with their lives. Keep being better to each other.

COMPLICATED: Each person makes choices every day about how they will live, how they will treat others and "SAYING" that I believe in Jesus and treating other people like shit, still leads me to Hell.

I believe it would most likely be a Hell of my own making because there is a mentality of "if it isn't just so, it's awful" that spoiled rotten kids and selfish adults share that cause everything that doesn't go their way to be such an affliction upon them.

REALLY believing in the message of Christ and the messenger means I treat others with respect at every possible moment and repent when I don't. For a long time I felt like a bad person because I wouldn't piss on *ush to put him out if he was on fire and some days I'm right back in that space and have to work my way out of it. BUT I do it for my own sanity, not necessarily for *ush. I do it because I believe in Jesus as a peaceful, but no nonsense kind of guy.

God and Jesus aren't in Hell torturing anyone. It isn't their wish for anyone or their purpose. It's simply the alternative. (There may be others, who knows and Heaven may be a figment of my imagination, but I'm still happy living my life the way I do, believing as I do, because I think it makes ME the best person I CAN be.)


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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #174)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 11:42 PM

179. So, if a person lives an exemplary life but renounces Jesus entirely, what then?

According to Jesus, that person is going to hell.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #179)

Sun Dec 8, 2013, 03:21 PM

184. Well, if you renounce Jesus entirely, why would you want to be in Heaven anyway?

I suppose someone like that might just cease to exist.

But people who think they are all "buddy-buddy" with Jesus and say, "Lord, Lord, when did we see YOU hungry or in jail etc" are the subject of Matthew 25. They think if they go to church, donate to the right charities and be seen in all the right places that their superficial commitment to their faith is enough.

It's like thinking one can buy a Stairway to Heaven. Jesus was ragging on the rich who were hoarding their wealth and treating the poor and servants like subhumans most of the time, but throwing money around publicly so they still "looked like good little Pharisees" obeying all the laws on the surface, but doing all kinds of evil in private.

But the second part addresses people who do good because they care about others. THOSE people belong in Heaven, but if someone entirely rejects the idea of it, not sure what happens there. One of my favorite movies is "What Dreams May Come" because I think we do a lot to create our own Heaven or Hell even here on Earth.

I think going to Heaven is about evolving to our "spirit self" and leaving the mortal stuff behind. Becoming beings of consciousness and light. Maybe I'll wind up in Hell because I don't believe perfectly, but I doubt it. It's a big universe, if people aren't actively behaving evilly or just ignoring the whole issue of doing good onto others, I think something good will happen when they pass on because I think people's energy continues in some fashion with or without the baggage we accumulate on Earth.

Those who can let go move on to a place of peace and understanding because that is what they want most of all deep down in their heart of hearts and from the very bottom of their soul.

Those who can't let go, take their wars and pain with them and create their own hell. That's what I think.


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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #184)

Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:59 PM

186. You should read your Bible, because right now, you're just offering opinions.

You think this, you think that, but that's all in your mind, it's not in the Bible.

I agree that one can't buy a stairway to heaven, but you ignore the fact that most Christians do just that mentally, ie: they imagine what THEY think heaven is about and/or what Jesus meant by this or that, or what it means to "be a Christian," but none of it is based on anything but the person's pre-existing biases and life view. Why do you think that there are roughly 33,000 different sects of Christianity in the world? It isn't because there is any one sect that embodies the one TRUE belief, but there are enough sects out there that everyone can find one that conforms to their existing world view.

In the OT, Yahweh's enemies weren't cast into eternal torture. They were sent off to oblivion, where they had no consciousness. So, when Yahweh ordered the Jews to commit genocide, they were "only" wiping out a people (men, women, children and even animals...save for the women who were spared immediate death so they could act as sex slaves and be raped by their conquerers), not condemning them to eternal suffering.

The hell of torture is largely a NT concept offered up by Jesus.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #172)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 10:57 PM

175. C) About the Canaanite woman... had to look it up - not a Biblical scholar

Jesus does push back at people to see if they are sincere or not and it's also to make the point that he offered salvation to the Jews first as was foretold, but that gentiles came to him willingly and with their faith and humility already in hand. A lot of stuff he does highlights the facts that there are issues, but that they can be overcome.



Canaanites are the descendent's of Adam and Eve's OTHER kid, Cain who killed his own brother Abel. There is a lot of animosity between average Jews and this tribe at the time. It is the Canaanite elders who have done a lot to set up Crucifixions at that time... so with him knowing where all this is headed you can see why he might be annoyed that someone from her group would be wanting him to heal their child. But I don't think he is genuinely rejecting her as much as making a point that this kind of thing is a big deal. It's switching gears from his ministry being all about reaching the Jewish community and going outside of it. It's about showing that gentiles believing in him is even a bigger deal because they didn't have the whole history of the messiah etc.. to base their faith on.


So he pushes back, but when she says, "Yes, I am a Canaanite, but even dogs get scraps from the table and you can heal my daughter." She shows that she's there for a sincere reason and it does not matter to her that the Jews and Canaanites don't get along.


https://bible.org/seriespage/faith-canaanite-woman-matthew-1521-28

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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #175)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 11:52 PM

180. Wow, you've really ramped up the apologies for Jesus this time.

It's much simpler than that: a woman with a very sick child comes to Jesus for help. He rejects her twice, rudely and in no uncertain terms. He says he wasn't sent for "her" kind. He says that she's a dog, and that he's not going to waste his crumbs on her.

Only when the woman completely debases herself and says, "yes, I'm a dog" does gentle Jesus, meek and mild come around and agree to help her daughter.

What kind of compassion is that? Who the fuck gave Jesus the right to "test the woman's faith" when she was already distraught about her sick daughter? Fuck him! Maybe if he had children of his own he wouldn't put a fellow human being through such mental anguish. The poor woman believed Jesus could help her, she came to him and asked repeatedly for his help, but that wasn't enough for the loathsome shit. He had to "test" her faith.

And what if she had failed his little fucking test? What if she had given up after being rejected twice and then being called a dog? Who could blame her for feeling she had failed in her attempt to get help for a child near death? Most people would give up after being treated so inhumanely. Suppose she had just walked away before groveling at his feet and saying "yeah, I'm a dog, just like you said, Jesus?" Would her child have been healed? Don't think so.

But Jesus would have felt OK about it. After all, she was ONLY a Caananite. You know, the people from the wrong side of the tracks. They're not sincere when asking for help for a dying child. They want something else!

I swear, the excuses people make for the shitty side of Jesus are unbelievable.

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Response to stopbush (Reply #180)

Sun Dec 8, 2013, 02:46 PM

182. I think you put your own spin on it too.

The actual words he said, could imply being a "pet" like different intonations of "gringo" can still be a slur but without a lot of heat. Yeah, I'm a Caananite. So what? Heal my kid. People who really hang out with other races and deal with them face to face aren't always 100% "pc" because sometimes stuff needs to be talked about aired out.

She had to be able to really believe that he would heal her. It may be he's only acting the way she expected him to act in order to fully bring several layers of healing not only to the kid, but to the Jews and Caananites in general.

This is like Osama Bin Laden's wife coming to ask for her child to be healed by someone who had lost family in 911. Their people were really in conflict. If he didn't address it, people at that time wouldn't understand it. Caananites working with Rome to bring about crucifixions. They weren't just from the wrong side of the tracks, they were selling the Jews out, but still representing themselves as Jewish.

He went to that area to heal her kid. Just like he knew he had to let his best friend die and lay dead for 4 days so that the miracle would be real proof, it wasn't easy to do. But he met people where they were at and confronted them with the bs of the time and worked with them to rise above it.





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Response to Tigress DEM (Reply #182)

Mon Dec 9, 2013, 12:10 AM

187. You're making stuff up to apologize for Jesus.

Why? The actual background is so much richer and interesting...and fact-based.

Jesus calling the woman a "dog" was very purposeful. Dogs are regularly found to be contemptible beasts in the OT. They were hardly considered to be "pets" in the way we think of pets today. This is the context in which jesus called the woman a dog, and there is no way one can consider his words to be expressing anything toward the poor woman than contempt.

You might find this article of interest: http://www.academia.edu/1460522/Attitudes_toward_Dogs_in_Ancient_Israel_A_Reassessment

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 08:40 AM

125. Yes, Dufus, those are tears, but in all fairness, I think Jesus is laughin' at y'all.

Do you folk EVER read what comes after the verse you think nails your opinion to Jesus' lips?


http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Luke/Discipleship-Trusting-God
<snip>
It should be noted that the brother really does not want an arbiter but an advocate on his behalf: "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me." This may have been Jesus' clue that there was a danger of greed in the situation.

Jesus refuses to judge between the two. He has not been appointed their judge, but he cannot avoid the opportunity to turn the request into an opportunity for instruction: "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions." When Jesus makes this warning, he has more in mind than monetary accumulation. If Jesus were alive today he would see the attitude behind the expression "The one with the most toys wins" as a prescription for failure in life. The ancients knew, as moderns also know, that life consists of more than the accumulation of wealth.


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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 09:34 AM

134. How un-Christian can these people be?

The Jesus of the "Sermon of the Mount" would be tickled pink by the Pope's rejection of unfettered capitalism. Mr. Moseley must have read a different book.

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Response to Laelth (Reply #134)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 01:38 AM

160. Mr. Moseley must have read a different book. AGREED nt

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 12:59 PM

140. Typical 'merka tea-party idiot. Take one quote out of

the Bible and put your own interpretation on it.

Jesus was a corporation-loving capitalist who believed in amassing riches and never giving to the poor? Jesus believed in Social Darwinism? Really? Who is actually dumb enough to believe this tripe?

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 01:05 PM

142. The religion of women and slaves was not going to please a Tea Party asshole. n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 02:53 PM

144. Jesus would say, "Go hang out with the money-changers. I'll get my whip and be right there."

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


And ALL of the right wing would try to crucify him again.

If only there were a Jesus. Maybe he'd come clean up some of this shit.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:44 PM

148. Jesus was not into any "isms" whatsoever.

There is no ism that can contain the infinite and unconditional love of God for all mankind.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 03:50 PM

149. Even on World Nut Daily he's catching flak

The comments are pretty scathing.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Tue Dec 3, 2013, 06:00 PM

153. I'm starting a debate here : Christian's economics theories. Link :

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 03:08 AM

162. I never saw anything in the New Testament that seemed to me a vision of an economic system

But there did seem to be a lot there -- and in the older Jewish traditions which produced Christianity as a splinter group -- about the importance of interpersonal justice. There's also a lot -- in the older Jewish texts and in the Christian texts -- that rather directly and angrily criticizes oppression, including economic oppression:

Woe to you who issue evil decrees, you who write unjust laws
to turn justice away from the needy or to rob My poor of their rights,
so widows may be your loot and orphans your prey!
What will you do when the day of wrath comes, in a sudden tempest from afar?
To whom will you flee for help, and where will you hide your wealth?

Isaiah 10

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 04:17 AM

163. And a Tea Party govt would ensure there are plenty of poor for us to take care of. n/t

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 05:36 AM

165. Rightwing god is a real dick.

 

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Wed Dec 4, 2013, 07:24 AM

166. Absurdity upon absurdity.

This is the kind of nonsense that religious belief leads to. According to this man, the "son of God" is "weeping in heaven" because of something someone called "the Pope" said.

Anyone can believe whatever they want, but accepting this short statement requires you to believe an awful lot of hooey. You must believe in an all-powerful being who is invisible and undetectable but is for some reason male. You must believe that this male god had a human child (male, of course), without involving a woman except as a carrier and delivery vehicle. You must believe that this male child is ALSO a "god". You must believe that this male son god died and was bodily transported to a place somewhere in outer space called "Heaven", and that as a result the sins of everyone who hears and believes this tall tale are forgiven on the spot. You must believe that this male son god somewhere in outer space is "weeping", despite being all-powerful and omniscient, and having created the entire Universe in the first place (or was that Dad?). Finally, you must believe that the weeping male son god in outer space holds conservative, far-right-wing views about an economic system called capitalism.

My goodness. That is a LOT of hooey to believe in all at once! But these people do it without batting an eye. No WONDER so many of them believe that Obama was born in Kenya. That's an incredibly easy lift compared with the son god hooey!

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 11:13 PM

176. shouldn't this be posted in the Religion forum?

 

The other post that was "breaking news" about the Pope was posted in the religious forum, I think that's where this belongs?

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Fri Dec 6, 2013, 11:23 PM

177. Heresy.

Nuff said.

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Sat Dec 7, 2013, 12:00 AM

181. Jesus dies fo somebody's sins

but not yours

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Response to Galraedia (Original post)

Mon Dec 9, 2013, 02:33 AM

188. Moseley quit reading that text as soon as it became a bit challenging

Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”

Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?”

Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.”

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