Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

JI7

(89,186 posts)
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:00 AM Jan 2014

Asha Mirje, Indian Politician, Says Women Invite Rape With Their Clothes, Behavior

Source: huffington post

An Indian female politician and activist has said rape victims may have invited attacks by their clothes and behaviour, fuelling a national debate over a series of incidents of sexual violence against women.

Asha Mirje, a Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) leader in western Maharashtra state, questioned at a meeting on Tuesday why a 23-year-old physiotherapy student who was gang-raped on a bus in Delhi in 2012 was out late at night.

"Rapes take place also because of a woman's clothes, her behaviour and her presence at inappropriate places," she said.

Women must be "careful", she said, and think if they are inviting assault.

"Every time such a statement is made by a public figure it justifies rape," Kavita Krishnan, secretary of the All India Progressive Women's Association, a lobby group, told Reuters.

While Mirje is thought to be the first senior female public figure to make such comments about the Delhi rape, other members of commissions looking after women's affairs have made similar remarks about less high-profile attacks.

"Mirje is reflecting what is a much larger problem. There are many others who hold such views," Krishnan said.

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/29/asha-mirje-rape-comments_n_4686379.html



44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Asha Mirje, Indian Politician, Says Women Invite Rape With Their Clothes, Behavior (Original Post) JI7 Jan 2014 OP
She's telling herself she will never be raped Warpy Jan 2014 #1
She has internalized the strictures on women to a great degree Hekate Feb 2014 #44
Dumbass. SoapBox Jan 2014 #2
Asha Mirje: jsr Jan 2014 #3
Whilst in more, shall we say, 'enlightened' countries, these sentiments seem laughable ... brett_jv Jan 2014 #4
some still hold those views, look at all the rape comments from elected republicans JI7 Jan 2014 #5
Yes, well, you can instruct me as to what I'm supposed to do ... brett_jv Jan 2014 #6
You enjoy that determination of yours not to pass judgment on condoning gang rape. Squinch Jan 2014 #17
Your spin on what I've wrote ... is not at all what I'm saying. brett_jv Jan 2014 #26
They need to be educated by the application of appropriate, public, unending revilement. Squinch Jan 2014 #27
The only thing we're in disagreement about is 'what is more likely to work' ... brett_jv Jan 2014 #30
"gently educate them in a way that doesn't come across as condescending"? Demit Jan 2014 #7
Seriously. Can you believe this shit? Gently educate people not to gang rape. And we shouldn't Squinch Jan 2014 #15
I'm talking about the leadership/this stupid lady politician, not the rapist/murderers themselves .. brett_jv Jan 2014 #20
"Culture" is just an excuse. ReRe Jan 2014 #8
Agreed ... brett_jv Jan 2014 #21
If I remember correctly... ReRe Jan 2014 #43
Surely you jest. MadrasT Jan 2014 #9
"drive otherwise good men into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust" hue Jan 2014 #11
I'm talking about what THEY think, the mentality of this woman and others like them ... brett_jv Jan 2014 #23
No one is thinking you are defending the rapists. Your defense of that woman's words Squinch Jan 2014 #29
Yes, many people here are misconstruing my words ... brett_jv Jan 2014 #32
No, brett, I won't be referring back to your pearls of wisdom. You go on and do your gentle Squinch Jan 2014 #34
What are you talking about ... it worked right here in the USA with this very subject ... brett_jv Jan 2014 #37
And you go on gently educating in the face of violence, rape and death. Squinch Jan 2014 #38
I love how he continues with his mansplaining. Demit Jan 2014 #39
And his gentle educating of me included an accusation that I was, "throwing feces." Squinch Jan 2014 #40
Gently educate them? They already know it's wrong! Dash87 Jan 2014 #18
What I'm saying is that I doubt this woman knows that her BELIEF on 'causality'... is wrong. brett_jv Jan 2014 #25
So what did she do to 'invite' getting brutally killed? What part of her outfit said 'MURDER ME'? ck4829 Jan 2014 #10
Someone remind me, please VWolf Jan 2014 #12
The parts of the world where Muslim views hold sway? brett_jv Jan 2014 #35
Rape is never the logical conclusion of any other action. marble falls Jan 2014 #13
Yeah, when middle-aged and elderly women get raped it's always because of their trashy outfits. tanyev Jan 2014 #14
Because, for the love of God, we must NEVER require men to be responsible for their own behaviors! Squinch Jan 2014 #16
The only difference between this politcian's view Kelvin Mace Jan 2014 #19
He's inviting a severe beating with that comment. Arugula Latte Jan 2014 #22
It's a woman who said it. Squinch Jan 2014 #28
What he said IS true, you know. Aristus Jan 2014 #24
Why do we women do this to each other?!? catbyte Jan 2014 #31
Because we are in the habit of taking on the responsibilities of others. This is a classic example. Squinch Jan 2014 #36
Where do they get such stupid people? closeupready Jan 2014 #33
you think this woman is illiterate ? JI7 Jan 2014 #42
what an asshole of a human being frwrfpos Jan 2014 #41

Warpy

(110,913 posts)
1. She's telling herself she will never be raped
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:09 AM
Jan 2014

because she doesn't dress that way.

She's deluding herself.

Hekate

(90,202 posts)
44. She has internalized the strictures on women to a great degree
Sat Feb 1, 2014, 12:06 AM
Feb 2014

You are quite right -- she thinks it will protect her. I know the psychological mechanism all too well -- how sad....

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
4. Whilst in more, shall we say, 'enlightened' countries, these sentiments seem laughable ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 03:47 AM
Jan 2014

Nevertheless, when you're talking about a completely different culture, one with different mores, a vastly different socio-economic arrangement, and a very different system of education ... such as what we see in the Middle East and many parts of the Asian subcontinent ... I'm not entirely sure that we in the West exactly deserve to 'judge' these types of opinions.

I mean, obviously, for the most part, here in the USA and most of the Western World (an area that is, on average, quite a bit more 'modern' in it's views towards women) we practically laugh at assertions along the lines of women can 'invite' rape, simply by the way they dress or where they choose to be at given moment in time, but ... we don't live in these incredibly sexually-repressed cultures ourselves.

I think it's instructive to remember as well that it really was not so long ago that large segments of the Western population (mostly men, but some women as well) held a view that's not altogether removed from the sentiments of Ms. Mirje. Hell, that movie with Jodie Foster where she's raped on the pinball machine (forget what it's called) is really not all that old ... and it was clearly meant to speak to this type of mentality within our culture, which was still somewhat rampant at the time it came out some 30 years ago. It was made 'for a reason', let's not kid ourselves.

What I'm basically getting at here is that it's not terribly surprising to discover that some other societies in the world are roughly 30 years behind the rest of the Western world in terms of grasping the concept that rape is a violent act committed by criminal men as opposed to the 'expected outcome' of 'temptresses' behaving in a 'seductive' manner that drive otherwise good men into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust.

So, what I mean is ... let's be real. A sizable part of the world still lags behind the 1st World/West when it comes to real understanding of 'cause and effect' when it comes to the gender/sex relations (along with many other, including religious, issues).

The best thing we can do is try to gently educate them in a way that doesn't come across as condescending. There obviously remains a very deep-seated belief amongst some cultures that males are not really in complete control of their sexual impulses ... and it's obvious, because if they DIDN'T have these beliefs, we wouldn't still see so many cultures where women are ordered to cover their faces and hair and legs and all that, purely for the purpose of protecting women from sexual assault, right?

Rather than ridicule them and/or just throw up our hands in disgust, we need to seek to educate, share what our sciences have discovered, and bring the rest of the world along with us. Like I said, don't forget that this view held sway even amongst our own, not so very long ago.

JI7

(89,186 posts)
5. some still hold those views, look at all the rape comments from elected republicans
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:00 AM
Jan 2014

and don't make excuses based on things like culture . there are many in india who disagree and are outraged. support those people. express outrage and disgust at people like the one in the OP without making excuses of culture.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
6. Yes, well, you can instruct me as to what I'm supposed to do ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 04:47 AM
Jan 2014

But that doesn't mean I have to do as you demand.

Personally, I'm going to just let those 'many in India' that you speak of ... 'express their outrage and disgust', and agree with them, while despising the actual criminals involved, from afar.

But as I do that, I'll keep in mind that it wasn't so long ago that 'The Accused' was made, remember exactly WHY it was made, and not pass judgement (from atop my white horse) on a view that's apparently largely held by a society that's clearly years behind our own when it comes to their understanding of such matters.

'Culture' may not be great 'excuse', but it can still provide a rational explanation ... that's all I'm saying.

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
17. You enjoy that determination of yours not to pass judgment on condoning gang rape.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 10:05 AM
Jan 2014

I suppose the widespread cultural practice of murdering those of different religious beliefs or tribal affiliations should be gently tolerated, too, then. Because we must not judge. And culture may not be a great excuse but it provides an explanation.

What crap.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
26. Your spin on what I've wrote ... is not at all what I'm saying.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 12:41 PM
Jan 2014

The woman, from what I'm reading, is not 'condoning gang rape', and nor am I. It's very possible for two people to look at the same exact event, and both believe that event is horrible and heinous ... whilst having a totally different opinion as to what the causality of the event was.

My only real point here was ... this attitude we have in the west that rape is purely an act of violence, not one of lust or sex, is a relatively new in world history. Given how backwards that part of the world is ... is it really that surprising that there's people over there (esp. older people who grew up with the 'old' way of thinking .. the one that led to veils and head-to-toe clothing for women) who still haven't 'gotten our memo'? I don't think it's that surprising.

People like this woman need to be educated. The rapists, OTOH, need to be shot.

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
27. They need to be educated by the application of appropriate, public, unending revilement.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 12:51 PM
Jan 2014

She is abetting the rapists by saying they are not responsible for their actions, that the victims are the perpetrators.

You are saying we should be "gentle" with her as she does this. You are saying that not being gentle is judgmental condescension. Again, that is crap.

Gentleness does not have a place in fighting these destructive attitudes that put women at risk by saying it is "cultural" or "natural" and therefore less wrong.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
30. The only thing we're in disagreement about is 'what is more likely to work' ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:24 PM
Jan 2014

We both desire the same outcome, believe me.

You know where I found out that the real cause of rape was violent men who desired the feeling of power, as opposed to being an act based on lust? It was ... SCHOOL. & I was a KID, in the 70's. And I quickly discovered that this (relatively new view on the subject) was spreading to everyone around me and becoming a part of the cultural zeitgeist. I came to believe this via education and at a young age.

Thus, my response to this 'news', if you will, was quite different from what it'd have been with someone screaming it in my face, at 60+ years old, living in a society where that particular view was NOT the dominant paradigm.

I'm not saying be 'gentle' and 'educational' in our approach because I have some 'soft spot' for friggin' rape, not even close. I'm saying that when you approach people (esp. older folks) with vitriol, histrionics and ridicule about their life-long beliefs ... all they do is dig in their heels and shake their head. I'm talking about what I think is more likely to WORK. Not because I think their beliefs aren't WORTHY of vitriol ... I think they are ... but I GREW UP knowing this Western paradigm on the subject. They did not. They learned something very different about it.

Thus, I think the 'better' (as in 'more likely to work') approach is 'education' ... not throwing our feces at them, much as we may feel that is deserved.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
7. "gently educate them in a way that doesn't come across as condescending"?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:36 AM
Jan 2014

Your attitude drips with condescension.

The idea of "gently educating" gang rapists is repulsive to me. Rape can't be excused by "mores" or a "vastly different socio-economic arrangement." It is violence against women. And it is always wrong.

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
15. Seriously. Can you believe this shit? Gently educate people not to gang rape. And we shouldn't
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 09:57 AM
Jan 2014

think this attitude is flatly wrong because... I lose the thread there. I think it's because Jodie Foster made a movie.

Yes, we should judge this attitude. Yes, we should show all the disgust we feel at this attitude. No we should not condone and coddle this attitude. This attitude legitimizes rape, this attitude says that men are never responsible for men's behavior.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
20. I'm talking about the leadership/this stupid lady politician, not the rapist/murderers themselves ..
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 12:10 PM
Jan 2014

Last edited Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:02 PM - Edit history (2)

For fucks sake, you can string those bastards up for all I care.

My main point here is ... it's not terribly surprising to hear that this belief still holds sway in the Middle East and even India ... where there are Muslims, this attitude exists. That's why they make their women cover up, because they believe this to be true about men, that they can't control themselves, their animal natures.

This shouldn't shock us to hear ... esp. when this view on the 'causality' of rape was common even in our own society, not that long ago, and is still believed by a small sliver.

People like this lady politician need to be EDUCATED about the true cause of rape. If you were to approach her with our Western view (i.e. it's about power/violence, not lust) with the type of attitude everyone's showing on this thread ... it probably would not 'work'.

Obviously you think differently, so we can agree to disagree on that point.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
8. "Culture" is just an excuse.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 07:33 AM
Jan 2014

Rape is an act of violence, no matter where on the earth it occurs. And then, when the victim is blamed, that's another act of violence. And when the victim is shunned by her friends and family, there is another act of violence. Any country who allows this to go on in their society cannot call itself civilized.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
21. Agreed ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 12:13 PM
Jan 2014

I'm really just saying in a long-winded (but I thought well-argued way ... obviously many disagree) ... it's not surprising to me to hear. The leadership their clearly needs education.

Do you think you're going to get through to them by responding in the way (I won't NAME this type of response, otherwise I'll get trouble for that) everyone here is to me? I personally doubt that will work. You have to bring people along to change their backwards attitudes about stuff like this.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
43. If I remember correctly...
Fri Jan 31, 2014, 01:11 AM
Jan 2014

... there is some activism in India after this gang rape occurred. I think there were some rather large protests. Look it... India is a hard case. They say if you want to change your life, just take your "vacation" in India. What's their population now? 1.5 billion? I could go on and on about India. But whether they call themselves a "democracy" or not, the government's got a long way to go if they blame rape on women/girls/boys and not on the rapist.

MadrasT

(7,237 posts)
9. Surely you jest.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 07:34 AM
Jan 2014
I mean, obviously, for the most part, here in the USA and most of the Western World (an area that is, on average, quite a bit more 'modern' in it's views towards women) we practically laugh at assertions along the lines of women can 'invite' rape, simply by the way they dress or where they choose to be at given moment in time, but ... we don't live in these incredibly sexually-repressed cultures ourselves.


Similar assertions are made in the Western World, especially the USA, all the time.

hue

(4,949 posts)
11. "drive otherwise good men into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust"
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 09:09 AM
Jan 2014

"otherwise good men" are not driven "into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust." Your statement here places the onus of rape on the woman. You just don't understand RAPE and may not want to understand it since you justify rape in other cultures so craftily.

It doesn't matter if the woman wears NOTHING such as a married couple in their home; if the woman does not want to have sex She should not be forced as it is RAPE! Sexual intimacy should always be consensual.
The onus for the violent forcing belongs to the one who forces! Period.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
23. I'm talking about what THEY think, the mentality of this woman and others like them ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 12:15 PM
Jan 2014

OF COURSE I DON'T THINK THEY ARE OTHERWISE GOOD MEN.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the way I worded that, so ... I understand why you got that idea from my words, but that wasn't meant to signify what *I* think of such men or the situation. I think they're friggin' scum who should be shot.

And don't friggin' accuse me of justifying RAPE ... I'm explaining the wrong-headed ATTITUDE this lady has about it, two different things.

Jiminy Christmas ...

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
29. No one is thinking you are defending the rapists. Your defense of that woman's words
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jan 2014

as understandable because "culture" is what everyone is objecting to. Your insistence that we be gentle with her attitude, and your accusation that not being gentle is condescension is what everyone is objecting to.

No one is misconstruing your message.

You are not being misunderstood. You are being disagreed with vehemently.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
32. Yes, many people here are misconstruing my words ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:35 PM
Jan 2014

You must not be reading very closely. I was directly accused of justifying rape (post 11). AND of wanting to 'gently educate' the gang rapists themselves (post 7).

However, please read my Post 30 ... I think that sums up my response to your comment as well.

Although let me also add that when I say 'understandable' I don't AT ALL mean 'oh, we should go along with it'. Far from it. Only that it's NOT SURPRISING. Do you understand the difference? You go back 50 years in our own country and take a poll, you'd find that the majority of people here in the USA would've agreed with what this lady was saying. We've LEARNED differently in the interim. Over there ... they need this same education that we've gotten.

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
34. No, brett, I won't be referring back to your pearls of wisdom. You go on and do your gentle
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:49 PM
Jan 2014

educating. Because in history, that has never worked. Ever. And it's the last refuge of the fans of the status quo.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
37. What are you talking about ... it worked right here in the USA with this very subject ...
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:07 PM
Jan 2014

Not every cultural paradigm has to be shifted via the 'righteous folk' vehemently degrading other people's wrong-minded beliefs. Especially one where 'what's right' ... is really fairly self-evident, as it is in this case.

Hell, many of us liberals try to do this all the time with the idiot right-wingers ... we get in their face, call 'em names, tell 'em they're friggin' stupid, etc. And they do it us as well. How often do you think minds are changed through this method?

Compare that to how often we change minds through 'education'.

I believe Education works better.

But you go on and throw the proverbial feces at people. See how far it gets ya.

Good day ...

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
39. I love how he continues with his mansplaining.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:22 PM
Jan 2014

He seems to be giving up on the idea of gently educating us on what he's talking about, tho. He's moved right past condescension and right into blaming us for misreading him. So many here misconstruing his words! This guy, who pats himself on the back for having such a modern attitude, has absolutely no self awareness.

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
40. And his gentle educating of me included an accusation that I was, "throwing feces."
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 02:25 PM
Jan 2014

I can really see how he thinks that kind of thing is going to work to change people's thinking.

Dash87

(3,220 posts)
18. Gently educate them? They already know it's wrong!
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 10:14 AM
Jan 2014

The rapists know its wrong, but they do it anyways because they can get away with with. This politician's statements are a way to ass-kiss the power structure to advance her political career. That's like saying that we should have tread lightly in the civil rights movement because Americans were just following their cultural beliefs and needed to be educated otherwise.

Cultural practices like this don't deserve respect or tolerance. They need to be stamped out of existence world-wide.

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
25. What I'm saying is that I doubt this woman knows that her BELIEF on 'causality'... is wrong.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 12:24 PM
Jan 2014

She knows the rape is wrong, ffs we all know that, instinctively. OF COURSE the 'cultural practice' of 'rape', assuming that's what you're talking about, should be stamped out worldwide.


ck4829

(34,981 posts)
10. So what did she do to 'invite' getting brutally killed? What part of her outfit said 'MURDER ME'?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 08:05 AM
Jan 2014

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
35. The parts of the world where Muslim views hold sway?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:52 PM
Jan 2014

It seems like they are most definitely not living in the same Century as the rest of us.

It's obvious in so many friggin' ways it's not even funny.

And this is another one of those ways.

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
16. Because, for the love of God, we must NEVER require men to be responsible for their own behaviors!
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 09:58 AM
Jan 2014

We must NEVER suggest that it's actually the rapists who are in the wrong.

This woman is a moron, plain and simple. And an astonishingly destructive one at that.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
19. The only difference between this politcian's view
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 10:22 AM
Jan 2014

and the GOP stance is that this woman says out loud what the GOP firmly believes but seldom admits to, since when they do, they lose elections.

Aristus

(66,099 posts)
24. What he said IS true, you know.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 12:22 PM
Jan 2014

In exactly the same way that men having heads and bellies and soft, penetrable skin is an invitation to get stabbed or shot to death. Or having a dick and balls is a clear invitation to have someone slice them off. See? It's the victim's fault...





catbyte

(34,175 posts)
31. Why do we women do this to each other?!?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:30 PM
Jan 2014

Just like female genital mutilation in Africa. Why must be a party to our own oppression and pain?

Squinch

(50,774 posts)
36. Because we are in the habit of taking on the responsibilities of others. This is a classic example.
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:55 PM
Jan 2014

These rapes are not the fault of the women, but you can set your clock by the amount of time that it takes for a contingent of women to say, "We must stop this by doing X."

It is not up to us to stop this. It is up to us to throw the responsibility for these things back into the laps of those who do it, and those who let them think the attitudes that lead to it are "just culture" and therefore unchangeable and acceptable.

JI7

(89,186 posts)
42. you think this woman is illiterate ?
Thu Jan 30, 2014, 06:16 PM
Jan 2014

and people all around the world including in the US have said similar things .

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Asha Mirje, Indian Politi...