Putin Tells Obama Russia Will Act In Case of Ukraine Violence

[Purveyor]

Source: RIA Novosti

MOSCOW, March 2 (RIA Novosti) – Russian leader Vladimir Putin told US President Barack Obama in a telephone conversation Sunday that Moscow reserved the right to protect its own interests and those of Russian speakers in the event of violence breaking out in eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

The Kremlin press service said Putin responded to Obama’s expression of concern over possible Russian plans to deploy troops in Ukraine by drawing attention “to the provocative, criminal acts of ultranationalist elements being effectively encouraged by authorities in Kiev.”

Putin said that there was a real threat to the life of many Russians on Ukraine’s territory, the press service said.

--clip
“People are afraid for the fate of those close to them and are asking not just for protection, but also to help them receive fast-tracked Russian citizenship,” Kazakova said. “A large number of applications are from members of Ukrainian law enforcement bodies and government officials fearing reprisals from radically disposed groups.”

Read more: http://en.ria.ru/world/20140302/188009718/Putin-Te

[TwilightGardener]

1. The solution would be to offer them refugee status and let them into Russia--

right? That's what Russia would REALLY do if it were honest, instead of invading Ukraine.

[newthinking]

2. Do you feel the answer for Ukrainians who feel threatened

is to have them all leave Ukraine?

[TwilightGardener]

3. Vlad wants to take care of them--he's willing to INVADE to protect them.

Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to let them into Russia? I'll bet Ukraine would allow it if the invasion stopped. They'd be RUSSIA's mouths to feed. Am I right? Problem SOLVED!

[newthinking]

5. So you're advocating that ethnic Russians leave Ukraine

if they are under threat, as the "solution".

Do you even realize what you are saying?

in Response to:
"Wouldn't it be cheaper and easier to let them into Russia? I'll bet Ukraine would allow it if the invasion stopped. They'd be RUSSIA's mouths to feed. Am I right? Problem SOLVED!"

[TwilightGardener]

7. Are they under "threat"? From who?

Has anything happened other than an official-language law? If they're more loyal to Russia than to Ukraine, shouldn't they leave lest they stay as traitors?

[riderinthestorm]

13. That's nuts! These are folks who were arbitrarily segregated by an artificial international border

Its like the Middle East where tribal Bedouins were often grouped into countries with both Shia and Sunni Muslims to disastrous consequences (Iraq). Or Native Americans whose tribal areas span the Dakotas and Canada. Or the Maya who are all throughout Central America and Mexico and who identify more as Maya and less so Guatemalan.

They ARE home. Moving them away from where they are and "to" Russia is a bizarre notion from their perspective. They live there, they have always lived there. Its our international arbitrariness that assigned some of them to Russia and some of them to Ukraine.

[TwilightGardener]

15. Are they Russians, or Ukrainians? And who is harming them to the extent

that they either need refugee status or an invasion to protect them?

[riderinthestorm]

32. The Russians in Crimea are technically Ukrainian but ethnically consider themselves Russian

Presumably that element in Crimea - approximately 60% - would self-identify as Russian Crimeans, and then there's the Crimean Tartars which are a substantial minority in Crimea (if I can recall its about 12% of the population) who certainly don't see themselves as Ukrainian and actually align more with Turkey.

Regardless.

None of those groups needed protection because the region was loosely and fairly peacefully held together as "Ukraine", including the Crimea, until the protests (and Yanukovich's overreaction) threw the place into chaos. So Putin is moving in to seize control of the Crimea, which identifies primarily as Russian.

And which holds the real prize - Russia's only warm water port Sevastopol.

Russia may be saying its about preserving the Russian element in Crimea but its really all about maintaining control of the port.

It doesn't help much that the government that's taken over in Yanukovich's place is similarly awful.

Really awful. So maybe the Crimean population DOES need saving. Its too early to say. Whatever, Putin isn't waiting.

[TwilightGardener]

33. The Tatars are in deep shee-ite, no one's coming to their defense, they'll just

have to pack up and leave if they don't like being Russian. I have read that they would want to belong to Ukraine, though. I have no doubt Putin is only looking at land and assets and bases, and I don't really think he gives a shit about ANYONE in Ukraine except as they serve his purposes. That's why I have to laugh at the assertions that he was invading to protect Russians--they are placeholders for territory, and more valuable to him in Ukraine than in Russia.

I think the new government should be allowed to fully form and hold elections in the very near future, and determine for themselves what sort of Ukraine they want (the EU/financial assistance should help guide them) and I think the eastern/pro-Russia areas should be allowed to say if they want to separate or be annexed by Russia. If there are ultra nut extremists in government, hopefully their influence can be lessened by terms and conditions of aid. Russia is trying to grab as much as it can as fast as it can until then.

[riderinthestorm]

34. We don't disagree however I'll bet there are folks that are going to be stuck in the middle

Ukrainians who are going to get stuck in Crimea as Russia steamrollers in. And ethnic Russians who are going to be caught on the "wrong" side of the border when hostilities really get firing (if it comes to that and this doesn't get resolved diplomatically).

But overall I agree with you. Putin is just using this as an excuse to move in and seize control. The folks in Crimea that are ethnically Russian were most likely not in any jeopardy from the government in Kiev etc etc etc

[TwilightGardener]

37. There may be retribution for either side depending on how it's resolved--

hopefully there are enough eyes on the situation that it's minimized.

[2banon]

40. Hear, Here! Well Said!

[Igel]

35. They're talking about PR officials and dignitaries, on the one hand.

And Berkutovtsy on the other. The Berkutovtsy number about 4000 and all the heavy lifting on the Maidan and other places were done by them. They're not military. They're not police. They're almost all Russian speakers and were loyal to Yanukovich.

The snipers, those who abducted and tortured Maidanovtsy, they were Berkut. They were disbanded.

They have already been fast-tracked for Russian passports. And rumors are that many fled to Russia and welcomed as Russians. Those who didn't were allegedly called to the Crimea and are suspected to be many of the unidentifiably uniformed quasi-insurgents.

That's loyalty. And while the Russian speakers are demanding that their views be taken into account, that was really the call from the Maidan for a few months when only Russian views were judged to have any real importance. They were willing to rule the roost unimpeded; but when not in charge, they demand an equal voice. Or they'll pick up their ball and join their fellow countrymen, apparently.

And it's the ethnic Ukrainians who are the ultranationalists?

[TwilightGardener]

36. Interesting info, thanks.

[Demeter]

14. No, such people don't understand what they are saying

Consider the Trail of Tears in the USA....it's the model for such a suggestion.

Or the Israeli plan do dispossess all the Palestinians...

Or Hitler's campaign for "Lebensraum".

Or ethnic cleansing of any kind.

[TwilightGardener]

18. Can you provide proof of the Trail of Tears in this case? Has any group been

"cleansed"? Or is this simply the bullshit excuse Russia uses to make a land grab? If anyone's going to be "cleansed" or persecuted, it's going to be loyal Ukrainians who don't want to live under Putin's rules in whatever territory he seizes. The Crimean governor already ordered anyone in the police or security forces out who wouldn't follow his command.

[Demeter]

20. Enjoy your stay on Ignore

I'm not going to mince words with you. You are disrupting this thread and destroying the English language. Never mind what you do to factual information.

[TwilightGardener]

22. Am I interrupting the bizarre Russian propaganda machine? Sorry, LOL.

[okaawhatever]

49. Who do we talk to about getting this Russian media propaganda off this site? It's gotten out of

control. Speaking of invasions.......

[Scootaloo]

27. Reminds me of a Haaretz article from a few weeks ago

The article covered protests in Paris that ended up with a bunch of hooligan assholes shouting, "Jews out of France!"
The comments below the article? A bunch of people expressing outrage at the sentiment... and advocating that Jews leave France

[okaawhatever]

42. So your're advocating for the forced annexation of ethnic Ukranians? It's not okay to move the

ethnic Russians but it's okay to tell the ethnic Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars that they now live in a different country? Don't you find it interesting that until now even ethnic Russians didn't want to be annexed to Russia?

But hey, let's tell the Crimean Tatars who were forcibly removed by Stalin and only allowed to return after 1991 that...sorry, the Russians are going to screw you again you now live in Russia. At least there won't be as many to disappoint since most of them died of starvation during exile. Putin is Stalin lite, don't kid yourself.

[Purveyor]

4. I view it as a liberation from the neo-nazis continguent that has over run

Kiev and were threatening to move on the east.

I don't blame Russia one iota for the actions it is taking. So far not a lot of blood has been spilled. Should Russia sit back and wait for the nazi goons from the West to act, that wouldn't be the case.

[TwilightGardener]

6. Well, since it's been less than a week since the transitional government

has formed, why don't we let Ukraine sort out Ukraine's government and plan elections instead of disrupting them with a military invasion? Then we'll see if they actually DO turn out to be neo-Nazis or whatever, and do something eeeevil. BTW, why didn't Russia sign the peace deal that would have left Yanukovich in power?

[newthinking]

8. They outlawed the majority party of ethnic Russians

Explain to me how exactly there will be any chance that they will have proper representation in the May vote without a tremendous disadvantage?

There is not enough time to organize, set a platform, get the word out, etc.

The May election deadline after sacking and eliminating two opposition parties makes it a SHAM.

[TwilightGardener]

11. I don't know, is Canada going to invade America if we outlaw the

Loyal-Canadian Party? Let's not bullshit each other, the "ethnic Russian protection" reason for invasion is, well, bullshit. And the entire world knows that. However, Russia will try to present "evidence" that Russians are being persecuted, I have no doubt. Everybody knows what's coming.

[okaawhatever]

43. Apparently those who only read Russian Times and RIA haven't been told the truth. Ditto the Putin

propagandists who have popped up on this site.

[another_liberal]

21. Thanks, newthinking, for mentioning that oposition parties were quickly outlawed.

It might never have happened as far as some people are concerned, or maybe they think it's the proper way to go about conducting a democratic election.

We and the EU have taken over Ukraine for now, but only because our bankers, stock brokers and "venture capitalists" think they see an opportunity to loot and steal. It looks more and more like we will soon have to abandon the place and leave it in ruins.

[Scootaloo]

28. I wasn't aware of that prior to this post

I've been ambivalent, mostly because I'm aware of all the misinformation coming from both sides.

But an abolishment of rival parties... that sends a fucking clear message as to what's going on.

[another_liberal]

29. The so-called "Transitional Government" in Kiev . . .

In their first day after seizing power, last Saturday, the so-called "Transitional Government" in Kiev passed resolutions outlawing two of the major parties which made up Yanukovich's majority coalition in the Rada Parliament. Yes they did.

[Igel]

38. That's odd.

Yesterday (Friday, February 28) Vladimir Rybak became the new acting head of the Party of Regions. Azarov resigned on Friday.

http://www.unian.ua/politics/891350-ribak-stav-vo-golovi-partiji-regioniv.html

That's days after it was supposedly banned. And just a couple of days after it moved into the opposition in the VR.

People here heard that a bill was offered in the VR to ban the PR and Communist Party.

They assumed that to propose a bill is to pass a bill. Obviously they think that Ukrainians are completely different from Americans or British, in whose legislatures bills are often proposed that sit there, untouched, unloved, and unpassed.

Or perhaps they're unaware of this little habit of legislatures--to allow all kinds of things to be proposed without permission from the Top Dog, even if they're never voted on. Ukraine, the US, Britain, they're just not as well run as Russia, I guess, where the legislature does its job, passing what the Top Dog wants and otherwise waits for orders. Now *that's* a democracy?

The other possible source of the muddle-headed thinking are news reports about the Party's being banned (with the Communist Party) in some strongly pro-Ukrainian jurisdictions. The area around Lviv, for instance, and some other areas in the center and West. Why, one such area banned the two parties on Wednesday or Thursday (again--if the party was outlawed nationally, why ban it locally?). Of course, a national-level judge already said that such banning has dubious legal footings and Constitutional merit.

The thing is, if self-professed znatoki, experts, are wrong on such an obvious point of fact, one that is easily verified and utterly debunked, one has to wonder what more subtle points they may have overlooked, and even--in a small fit of ill-will--wonder if perhaps they've crossed from mere confirmation bias into open disinformation.

The Party is under investigation for violating Ukrainian law. It's a witch hunt, sadly.

[okaawhatever]

44. Be careful with the truth around here. Some only believe what the official Putin press tells them.nt

[newthinking]

47. I stand corrected. It was three regions and the courts overturned it.

But come on, their offices have been burned down, they have been intimidated out of some regions, they have had their lives threatened.

Ya right, you are going to get a successful vote in that circumstance.

[Purveyor]

9. The uprising was peaceful until the neo-nazis thugs showed up with weapons.

I've been following this for weeks and said weeks ago this wouldn't have been allowed to happen to this extent if it had been for the Olympics.

Russia would have acted much sooner than this.

The timing of this uprising to coincide with the Olympics is telling indeed.

Still waiting to fully discover the western 'people behind the curtain' that have/are orchestrating this debacle (for them I might add).

[TwilightGardener]

12. So they say. Why didn't Russia sign and support the peace deal?

[okaawhatever]

45. the protests began when the President was due to sign the EU AA agreement. It was Yanukovych

who set the time table. Had he signed the agreement like they had been working on for years, the one supported by the majority of the country, the protest wouldn't have taken place. It's the criminal President and your bff Putin who created the time table.

[joshcryer]

50. It didn't get violent until the anti protest law was passed.

Until then it was a bunch of no nothing right wingers being a nuisance. No injuries or anything.

[SolutionisSolidarity]

51. You do realize they put Svoboda in charge of the defense ministry right?

The days of of rationally marginalizing the role they played in the protest movement are done. They wouldn't be given the military and police forces unless they earned them. Ethnic Russians should be scared right now, as should Jews, LGBT, and those on the Left. All Russia has to do is wait for an excuse, and with Svoboda in charge they won't have to wait long.

http://peoplesworld.org/ukrainian-ultra-rightists-given-major-cabinet-posts-in-government/

[TwilightGardener]

54. So if the Tea Party wins the White House, Mexico will

pre-emptively invade America under the guise of "protecting" those of Mexican descent? Pre-emptive invasions are wrong, no matter who does them (including the US).

[SolutionisSolidarity]

56. OK, it's just that earlier you seemed to imply that they were being maligned unfairly as NAZIs.

The Far Right appears to be well in control now. I mean actual, self identifying fascists.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980

[840high]

17. Good post. Expressed

my opinion.

[JVS]

52. No, ethnic cleansing is not acceptable.

[jsr]

10. We would never do such thing

[Demeter]

16. Well, never ADMIT to doing such a thing, or planning and fostering it...

until the statute of limitations has passed and most of the war criminals are dead...

[840high]

19. Ha!

[frwrfpos]

23. DU rec

I hope Putin deals with these fascists and anti semites hard and quickly. The Ukrainian government has been literally taken over by the violent fascists and I hope they are taken care like the terrorists that they are.

[Deep North]

53. How much?

...does NASHI pay these days?

[jwirr]

26. We do not like it but I suspect that Putin is doing this to keep "our" troops from going into a

country that is on their border. It is an action that was part of the cold war era as well.

[pampango]

30. People being protected from their own government by foreign intervention is the essence

of the UN's Responsibility to Protect. The UN standard, though, requires proof that genocide or mass atrocities are already occurring. It is not preventative in nature. And it requires the consent of the Security Council.

Putin's interpretation of R2P will open the door to its early and more frequent use to prevent atrocities from ever happening. I had no idea that Putin was such a proponent of the use of foreign militaries to protect citizens from their own governments.

Prevention requires apportioning responsibility to and promoting collaboration between concerned States and the international community. The duty to prevent and halt genocide and mass atrocities lies first and foremost with the State, but the international community has a role that cannot be blocked by the invocation of sovereignty. Sovereignty no longer exclusively protects States from foreign interference; it is a charge of responsibility where States are accountable for the welfare of their people. This principle is enshrined in article 1 of the Genocide Convention and embodied in the principle of “sovereignty as responsibility” and in the concept of the Responsibility to Protect.

The three pillars of the responsibility to protect, as stipulated in the Outcome Document of the 2005 United Nations World Summit (A/RES/60/1, para. 138-140) and formulated in the Secretary-General's 2009 Report (A/63/677) on Implementing the Responsibility to Protect are:

1. The State carries the primary responsibility for protecting populations from genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing, and their incitement;
2. The international community has a responsibility to encourage and assist States in fulfilling this responsibility;
3. The international community has a responsibility to use appropriate diplomatic, humanitarian and other means to protect populations from these crimes. If a State is manifestly failing to protect its populations, the international community must be prepared to take collective action to protect populations, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

http://www.un.org/en/preventgenocide/adviser/responsibility.shtml

[Benton D Struckcheon]

31. This is a hilarious thread.

Putin and his "United Russia" party are easily as fascistic as anything the Ukraine has put up, and by the looks of it the Ukrainian side hasn't exactly distinguished itself.
In here, we have folks beating each other up over which of these scum to support. Oh lord.
Simple fact of the matter is you have a bunch of backwater rubes fighting each other in much the same manner as the Hatfields and the McCoys. The only thing that makes it significant to outsiders is that one of the sides involved has, as a matter of historical fact which no longer has any relevance to the actual power structure of the actual world of the 21st century, veto power at the UN. It's more a testament to the fossilized structure of that body than it is to any reality anyone else lives in.
If Putin wins, whatever that means, he gets to reconstruct the old USSR with Russia and the Ukraine in it, but without the Baltics or Kazakhstan or Azerbaijan.
Oh my. What a prize.

[2banon]

41. pox on both houses...?

what is your thinking as to the significance (if any) certain "pro-democracy" forces from the U.S. might have had in stirring shit up there?

[okaawhatever]

46. you think he won't go after the Baltics after this? It's one of the few ways opposing forces can get

to Russia. Not only that, there is very much an issue with world energy. Putin wants to control the pipelines in Ukraine so he can cut off gas to Europe when he feels threatened. It will also keep competition from moving in. If he can keep the prices of gas elevated it will affect the world market.

All that being said, Putin doesn't want Ukraine because he doesn't want the debt and the cost of improving their infrastructure. He just wants to control it and add it to his trade bloc to give the Customs Union more economic clout. He'll annex it when it's closer to time for him to be invaded.

[JVS]

55. "so he can cut off gas to Europe when he feels threatened."

He already can. The pipeline can always be shut off by Russia. The only thing he needs Ukraine's cooperation for is to keep it flowing.

[DallasNE]

39. But Putin Is Doing Everything In His Power To Provoke Violence

And give him an excuse to invade. Beware of ethnic Russians taking advantage of this situation.

[okaawhatever]

48. There were several foreign policy experts saying they thought Putin would create

false flag scenarios as a pretense for a military crackdown. I think they tried, Yanukovych had a "band of government funded thugs who were hired to intimidate anti-government protesters and promote fear and discord"

http://forward.com/articles/193488/ukraines-unfinished-revolution-sparks-hope-for-jew/?p=3