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brooklynite

(93,870 posts)
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:36 PM Mar 2014

Obama: Crimea referendum would be illegal

Source: CNN

President Barack Obama said Thursday he was "confident" that the international community was "moving forward together" in responding to what he called the Russian intervention in Ukraine.

Speaking to reporters at the White House, Obama said that if Russia continues "this violation of international law" in Ukraine, "the resolve of the United States and our allies and the international community will remain firm."

He also said that a proposed referendum in Ukraine's Crimea region -- one that, as proposed by proposed by pro-Russian Crimean lawmakers, would ask residents whether Crimea should be part of Ukraine or Russia -- would "violate the Ukrainian constitution and violate international law."

Any discussion about a referendum must include Ukraine's legitimate government, Obama said. Washington considers Ukraine's legitimate government to be the one installed by Parliament after last month's ouster of President Viktor Yanukovych following months of protests.

Read more: http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Crisis_in_Ukraine_2

44 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Obama: Crimea referendum would be illegal (Original Post) brooklynite Mar 2014 OP
Get Ukraine into NATO and by default you can kick out the Russian fleet /nt jakeXT Mar 2014 #1
I have not seen anything, anything, that remotely touches on the topic of kicking amandabeech Mar 2014 #4
I'm no expert, I don't remember who mentioned it jakeXT Mar 2014 #8
Your extract says that the Russian bases on Crimea could be a problem if Ukraine wished to gain amandabeech Mar 2014 #13
That's what Russia fears jakeXT Mar 2014 #19
I guess Russia fears that Ukraine will act like a Putin-led Russia. amandabeech Mar 2014 #21
I think he didn't want to be slow and incompetent like Assad or Yanukowitsch jakeXT Mar 2014 #23
I'm familiar with Voice of Russia, Counterpunch and Engdahl. amandabeech Mar 2014 #24
BTW the first link is Reuters India, maybe Putin reads the same stuff jakeXT Mar 2014 #25
Your first cite is not responsive to my post. n/t amandabeech Mar 2014 #30
So you think Merkel is right, Putin has lost his marbles and he should have talked to Andriy Parubiy jakeXT Mar 2014 #35
Sometimes in international relations, one has to deal with distasteful people. amandabeech Mar 2014 #36
Medvedev also seems to see nobody to talk to / What about US presidents wrecking nations ? jakeXT Mar 2014 #37
I think that the Ukrainian people through out the crook Yanukovich. amandabeech Mar 2014 #38
"Member countries should have no foreign military bases on their territory" former9thward Mar 2014 #39
The Status of Forces Agreement jakeXT Mar 2014 #41
Oh so some countries are more equal than others. former9thward Mar 2014 #42
If Ukraine as a member of NATO can kick out the Russians then why can't Cuba kick totodeinhere Mar 2014 #17
American Exceptionalism ? /nt jakeXT Mar 2014 #20
There is no basis for Ukraine kicking the Russians out of their leased bases so long as the amandabeech Mar 2014 #22
Issuance of Ukraine-related Executive Order JustAnotherGen Mar 2014 #2
thus says the politician who is occupying a foreign country nt msongs Mar 2014 #3
Which has little to nothing to do with the validity of statement in and of itself. LanternWaste Mar 2014 #5
Germany? South Korea? United Kingdom? brooklynite Mar 2014 #7
We'll see what happens jakeXT Mar 2014 #9
Dumb move, Mr. President. Laelth Mar 2014 #6
Results of elections in which armed individuals wander around outside polling places amandabeech Mar 2014 #14
Hmm ... Laelth Mar 2014 #31
I don't know what they think because they haven't had the opportunity amandabeech Mar 2014 #43
Ethnic Russians are 59% (vast majority?) of Crimea. Assuming the 41% who are not ethnic Russia pampango Mar 2014 #44
Sorry, it is simply not true that the US was caught supporting geek tragedy Mar 2014 #15
It is quite true, as posts here have shown over the past couple of days. Laelth Mar 2014 #32
I have seen them, and they are full of factual falsehoods and distortions. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #34
Actually the EU has already agreed to do something. They have agreed to a $15 loan guarantee to totodeinhere Mar 2014 #18
You can't reason with the "anti-Putin no matter what the facts" crowd cosmicone Mar 2014 #28
I continue to believe that they mean well. Laelth Mar 2014 #33
'Ukraine's legitimate government' iamthebandfanman Mar 2014 #10
please stop repeating the Kremlin's Big Lie of calling Yanukovych's decision geek tragedy Mar 2014 #16
Not a "Big Lie." Mag238 Mar 2014 #26
Nope, a big L-I-E spread by Russia's rightwing government. geek tragedy Mar 2014 #27
Too bad taking food stamps away from hungry people isn't illegal. n/t jtuck004 Mar 2014 #11
Not conceding anything--that's the way to do it. TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #12
Ukraine's legitimate government...the one installed by Parliament after last month's ouster... seveneyes Mar 2014 #29
Putin has ignored what Obama said previously , ... quadrature Mar 2014 #40
 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
4. I have not seen anything, anything, that remotely touches on the topic of kicking
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:58 PM
Mar 2014

the Russians out of their leased bases in Sevastopol and elsewhere in Crimea.

If you have a cite, I'd love to read it.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
13. Your extract says that the Russian bases on Crimea could be a problem if Ukraine wished to gain
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:03 PM
Mar 2014

admittance to Nato. It also states that nations with territorial disputes have difficulty being admitted to Nato, which may be one reason that the current situation in Crimea exists.

The passage does NOT say, however, that Ukraine was then or is now seeking to break the leases that Russia has on those bases.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
19. That's what Russia fears
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:31 PM
Mar 2014

Markov: The Kremlin believes that the current Ukrainian leadership will manipulate the elections planned for May 25 to install a single leader or coalition government functioning much as former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili did in Tbilisi.3 … After that, Kiev may evict Russia’s Black Sea Fleet from Sevastopol4 and purge Crimea of any Russian influence. Ukraine could easily become a radicalized, anti-Russian state, at which point Kiev will fabricate a pretext to justify taking subversive action against Moscow5.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-06/war-yes-war-no-the-ukraine-standoff-as-diplomatic-mashup

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
21. I guess Russia fears that Ukraine will act like a Putin-led Russia.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:58 PM
Mar 2014

In Alcoholics Anonymous, they encourage their members to try to think like non-alcoholics. Thinking like alcoholics is called "stinking thinking."

I'm not saying that Putin is an alcoholic, but he is engaging in old ways of thinking--"stinking thinking."

Furthermore, by his actions in the Ukrainian area of Crimea, he is not only abrogating Russia's responsibility under the 1994 Budapest memorandum, but he is just making Ukraine thoroughly angry. For heaven's sake--the Russian navy just blockaded the entrance to the Ukrainian navy's base. That is a classic act of war.

If Putin had decided that his best actions were peaceful, civil ones, he should have requested meeting with the new acting Foreign Minister and Minister of Defense concerning Russia's lease of the Crimean bases, as a normal country would. Instead, he began to believe the paranoid propaganda put out by his own regime.

If he wants Russia to have normal relations with other countries, behaving like a lying bully is not going to do it.

He is simply nekulturny.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
23. I think he didn't want to be slow and incompetent like Assad or Yanukowitsch
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:09 PM
Mar 2014

It's a risky move, he certainly risks a lot with it.

If his intel was correct, he certainly knows through intercepts about people like Nuland or the Estonian foreign minister.

Or the intel was planted, to force him into the move just like the Soviets were dragged into Afghanistan


The Central Intelligence Agency says it was following events closely enough to have outlined scenarios in which upheaval in Ukraine would become so intense that Russia would take military action.

Two national security sources said the CIA had specifically warned policymakers, shortly before the Russian military moved into the Crimean peninsula, that such a move could be imminent.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4613133



So, what was Russian Intel reacting to, you ask?

Well, according to Voice of Russia, hacked emails pointed to a group of Tatar troublemakers, neo-Nazis and others who were allegedly getting assistance from Turkish Intelligence. There were also two incidents where masked men carried out paramilitary-type operations on government buildings in Simferopol in Crimea on February 27 and February 28 which suggested that something big was afoot. (Russian ambassador to the UN, Vitaly Churkin confirmed that the Crimean interior ministry was attacked on Saturday by armed men sent by Kiev in a statement he made before the UN Security Council.) The incidents were captured on tape and can be seen here:

Here’s an excerpt from one of the hacked emails, also from the same post, allegedly between the coup plotters in Kiev and a Tatar leader:

“Everything is going according to the plan. We are ready to proceed with the second part of the play. As agreed earlier last week, my guys together with people from the “Karpatskaya Sech” and UNA-UNSO will arrive wherever is needed and with the necessary weapons. You only need to let us know the addresses of the warehouses in Simferopol, Sevastopol, Kerch, Feodosia and Yalta, and the time of the meeting…” (The Crimean Anti-Coup Move” Moon of Alabama)

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/04/crimea-river/
 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
24. I'm familiar with Voice of Russia, Counterpunch and Engdahl.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:15 PM
Mar 2014

I used to read Counterpunch and Engdahl, but I have not for some time because I don't view them as reliable.

Consequently, I won't respond to your posts citing these sources.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
25. BTW the first link is Reuters India, maybe Putin reads the same stuff
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:20 PM
Mar 2014

that is printed in Voice of Russia, nobody says it has to be true to react to it.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
35. So you think Merkel is right, Putin has lost his marbles and he should have talked to Andriy Parubiy
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:46 PM
Mar 2014

the secreteray of Defense Council, Svoboda member and founder Social National Party of Ukraine.

The man facing down Putin's aggression as secretary of the Ukrainian National Security and Defence Council is Andriy Parubiy. He oversees national security for the nation having previously served as security commandant during the anti-government protests in Kiev.

Parubiy was the founder of the Social National Party of Ukraine, a fascist party styled on Hitler's Nazis, with membership restricted to ethnic Ukrainians.

http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right


 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
36. Sometimes in international relations, one has to deal with distasteful people.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:03 PM
Mar 2014

If neither Putin nor one of his ministers is able to do that, then they are in the wrong position.

Frankly, I'm beginning to believe that Putin should be in the care of a therapist specializing in narcissistic personality disorder. Not that he would of course--most people with that diagnosis think that they are perfectly fine as they go through life wrecking the lives of other people, and in this case, nations.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
37. Medvedev also seems to see nobody to talk to / What about US presidents wrecking nations ?
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:11 PM
Mar 2014
Sochi - Today I see no legitimate Ukrainian partners for a dialogue, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said.

"Strictly speaking, today there is no one to talk to there. The legitimacy of a whole host of government bodies is raising huge doubts," Medvedev said in Sochi, responding to a question posed by Interfax.

"If people crossing Kyiv in black masks and Kalashnikov rifles are considered a government, it will be difficult for us to work with such a government," the Russian prime minister said.

"If a normal modern power emerges (in Ukraine) based on Ukrainian law and on the constitution, we shall be ready to resume this sort of a relationship," the Russian head of government said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/medvedev-ukrainian-authorities-legitimacy-in-doubt-337500.html



If the Nuremberg Laws were Applied...

If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. By violation of the Nuremberg laws I mean the same kind of crimes for which people were hanged in Nuremberg.

http://www.chomsky.info/talks/1990----.htm
 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
38. I think that the Ukrainian people through out the crook Yanukovich.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:17 PM
Mar 2014

Were the US and Europe around. Yes. Were there irregularities. Yes.

But the Ukrainian Parliament is largely intact, and voted to impeach Yanukovych, a crook of the first water, by a large margin. That same parliament has set national elections for late May.

An election with neutral observers and no armed troops walking around in the streets is the best way of washing away any and all political sins.

Obviously, you do not see things the same way, and there is no point in continuing this discussion.

former9thward

(31,803 posts)
39. "Member countries should have no foreign military bases on their territory"
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:31 PM
Mar 2014

How is it the U.S. has bases in Germany? The U.S. needs to pull out of there. Wouldn't want them violating NATO agreements.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
41. The Status of Forces Agreement
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 06:38 PM
Mar 2014
The Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) is a treaty that sets out the terms under which the armed forces of a foreign NATO member state are allowed to operate in another NATO state, including legal issues such as:

...

The SOFA agreement is supplemented by another agreement specific to the six NATO nations (including the UK and the USA) that have a permanent military presence in Germany, the Supplementary Agreement (or SA). The SOFA was signed in 1951, and the SA was signed in 1959 and last updated in 1998 at the end of the Cold War. With its 83 articles the SA to SOFA is much more detailed than SOFA itself (with 20 articles in Roman numerals – e.g. XX), and more often than not it is mistaken for the SOFA itself.
http://bfgnet.de/policy/sofa.html

totodeinhere

(13,036 posts)
17. If Ukraine as a member of NATO can kick out the Russians then why can't Cuba kick
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:18 PM
Mar 2014

the US out of Guantanamo?

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
22. There is no basis for Ukraine kicking the Russians out of their leased bases so long as the
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:05 PM
Mar 2014

Russians behave in accordance with that lease.

I doubt that the recent days' actions conform to the lease terms, and the Ukraine could conceivably begin eviction procedings. I suspect that the lease has a provision regarding termination, and probably states what tribunal should hear any disputes pertaining to the lease.

No one has suggested that the U.S. is in violation of the terms of the lease that it has on the Guantanamo base lease.

Sometimes law really does come in hand: U.S., Ukrainian and International Law are there to try to keep disputes from turning into wars.

JustAnotherGen

(31,683 posts)
2. Issuance of Ukraine-related Executive Order
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:47 PM
Mar 2014

I don't think this deserves it's own post - but my 'post title' was the subject of the treas.gov emails sent out to US businesses today that engage in import/export and that have BIS and OFAC functions. I think it's a good complement to what you've posted -

2014 Recent OFAC Actions landing page: http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/OFAC-Enforcement/Pages/OFAC-Recent-Actions.aspx

This is a direct link to the PDF - 3 Pages President Obama issued this a.m.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/ukraine_eo.pdf

It's not naming names or anything (I think we are anticipating that later today) but it's making pretty clear we will take a trade and sanctions approach.

Any American citizen can sign up for those emails - but once you have experience navigating the Sec of Treasury and Sec of State instructions and updates from a commerce perspective you can read these and read in between the lines pretty clearly.

I'm liking an approach of 'play nice' we can't throw bombs in this - but we can prevent our telecoms and banks from doing business with you.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
5. Which has little to nothing to do with the validity of statement in and of itself.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:59 PM
Mar 2014

Which has little to nothing to do with the validity of statement in and of itself.

However, I'm quite certain of your sincerity in simply offering, by definition, irrelevant information (but it does make for such wonderful ad copy).

brooklynite

(93,870 posts)
7. Germany? South Korea? United Kingdom?
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:07 PM
Mar 2014

Of course you're talking about Iraq/Afghanistan, where we have troops by virtue of decisions made by a different Administration, and where we're pulling them out.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
9. We'll see what happens
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:20 PM
Mar 2014

Noting that Mr. Karzai had “demonstrated that it is unlikely that he will sign” the agreement, Mr. Obama told him, in effect, that the United States would deal with the next Afghan leader. He warned Mr. Karzai that the longer it took for Afghanistan to sign the pact, known as a bilateral security agreement, or B.S.A., the smaller the residual force was likely to be.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/26/world/asia/obama-keeps-options-open-in-afghanistan.html?_r=0

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
6. Dumb move, Mr. President.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:06 PM
Mar 2014

The truth is that we're not going to do squat about Russia's occupation of the Crimea. We can't because our European allies won't let us. They depend on Russian natural gas. If we tick off Putin, and he decides to spike the price, every sitting government in Western Europe will be thrown out of power. And they know it.

So, given that we can't realistically do anything about this situation, it's silly to call a referendum "illegal." Who cares if it's legal? It will still express the will of Crimea's citizens, and, given that the vast majority of them are ethnic Russians, I suspect they will express a strong preference for independence from the Ukraine (which is now dominated by a right-wing government that we helped install in an unconstitutional coup). In fact, now that I think about it, it's awfully hypocritical to suggest that a referendum is "illegal" when we've been caught red-handed supporting an unconstitutional coup.

The President needs better advisers.

-Laelth

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
14. Results of elections in which armed individuals wander around outside polling places
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:06 PM
Mar 2014

don't generally command a lot of respect.



Laelth

(32,017 posts)
31. Hmm ...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:33 PM
Mar 2014

Do you honestly believe that the ethnic Russians in the Crimean peninsula (and they're the vast majority) don't want to be independent from the right-wing government in the Ukraine that is almost completely run by Ukranians?

Personally, when the Russians in the Crimea vote for independence, I'm going to trust those results. It just makes sense to me.

-Laelth

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
43. I don't know what they think because they haven't had the opportunity
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:00 PM
Mar 2014

express themselves via secret ballot, in an internationally monitored election with no armed men wandering around on their streets.

The people out and about talking to reporters are the ones who want to return to Mother Russia.

If I wanted to stay with Ukraine, which is probably most of the ethnic Ukrainians and ethnic Tatars and perhaps some of the ethnic Russians, I'd stay home and keep my mouth shut.

And if there were some sort of "election" with the Russian military, and it is the Russian military, running around in which Crimea declared itself part of Russia, I'd get the hell out of there if I could.

I'd also be trying to get some info from non-Russian media.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
44. Ethnic Russians are 59% (vast majority?) of Crimea. Assuming the 41% who are not ethnic Russia
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 07:32 PM
Mar 2014

vote No, it would only take a few ethnic Russians to lead to a surprising result in the referendum.

Some ethnic Russians are undoubtedly liberals who may not see a future with Putin's right wing domestic policies and prefer the "humanist", socially liberal policies that exist in Europe. Others may believe that they get along just fine with ethnic Ukrainians and Tatars and are not hung up on the necessity of their ethnic group running everything.

A No vote is unlikely. The date for the referendum was originally scheduled for May 25. It as changed to March 30 and then to March 16. It seems that the legitimacy of the vote is not as important as getting it done ASAP.

... the right-wing government in the Ukraine ...

In the long run, if Ukraine associates more closely with Europe, people are more likely to benefit from a liberal government than if they join with Russia.
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
15. Sorry, it is simply not true that the US was caught supporting
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:10 PM
Mar 2014

an unconstitutional coup.

What happened in the Ukraine is that the constitutional provisions limiting presidential power were thrown out by Yanukovych's flunkies in the court system as unconstitutional, allowing him to act like a dictator, and on February 21, 2014 he agreed that those provisions should be valid again. Then he fled the country.

He was a victim of a coup as much as Ceaucesceau and Mussolini were. Except he was less of a victim because he escaped justice.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
32. It is quite true, as posts here have shown over the past couple of days.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:34 PM
Mar 2014

I won't dig for them. You have seen them, I am sure.

-Laelth

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
34. I have seen them, and they are full of factual falsehoods and distortions.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:37 PM
Mar 2014

Yanukovych signed an agreement restoring constitutional limits on his authority that his crony judges removed at his behest. He then fled the country with the billions of dollars he stole from the public coffers.

that is not a coup.

there is a long history of corruption and abuse of power by Yanukovych and his allies--including stealing elections.

totodeinhere

(13,036 posts)
18. Actually the EU has already agreed to do something. They have agreed to a $15 loan guarantee to
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:25 PM
Mar 2014

Ukraine. This is over and above any other aid pledges and is a direct result of the Russian intervention. Plus they will probably agree to sanctions albeit milder sanctions than what the US wants. And remember that yes Europe depends on natural gas from Russia but Russia also depends on the foreign exchange that it earns from selling gas to Europe.

China would probably be a willing buyer of Russian natural gas in place of the Europeans but there isn't sufficient infrastructure in place to pipe it to China and shipping it overland or by sea would be prohibitively expensive. So the EU and the Russians need each other.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
28. You can't reason with the "anti-Putin no matter what the facts" crowd
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:28 PM
Mar 2014

They simply regard all facts regarding the illegal coup in Ukraine against a democratically elected government as propaganda. It is sad to see dittoheads on DU.

iamthebandfanman

(8,127 posts)
10. 'Ukraine's legitimate government'
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 03:30 PM
Mar 2014

you mean the one installed by a coup ?

I don't think the Russians should have their troops deployed outside their barracks but come on...

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
16. please stop repeating the Kremlin's Big Lie of calling Yanukovych's decision
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 04:10 PM
Mar 2014

to flee the country rather than face trial for his crimes as a 'coup'

 

Mag238

(26 posts)
26. Not a "Big Lie."
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:21 PM
Mar 2014

There was a fascist coup led by anti-semitic right wing terrorists to overthrow a democratically elected government. If you don't like the word, "coup," how about "putsch"?

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
27. Nope, a big L-I-E spread by Russia's rightwing government.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:25 PM
Mar 2014

And too many people on the left swallow it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024618343

Sorry, I choose the truth over Vladimir Putin.

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
29. Ukraine's legitimate government...the one installed by Parliament after last month's ouster...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:29 PM
Mar 2014

The US admin really needs to butt out of this. Placating the repubs is never a good idea.

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