93% of Crimea Votes to Join Russia

[DonViejo]

Source: The Daily Beast

According to exit polls, 93 percent of Crimea voted to join Russia in a referendum Sunday. The U.S. has already rejected the results, saying the vote took place under "threats of violence and intimidation from a Russian military intervention that violates international law." As Jamie Dettmer wrote Saturday, the result was a foregone conclusion.

Read it at Associated Press
March 16, 2014 2:09 PM

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Read more: http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2014/03/16/93-of-crimea-votes-to-join-russia.html

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US REJECTS CRIMEA VOTE, CITES RUSSIAN INTIMIDATION
BY MATTHEW LEE
AP DIPLOMATIC WRITER

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The U.S. is rejecting the vote in Crimea even before the results are released.

The White House says Sunday's referendum on secession is contrary to Ukraine's constitution.

The U.S. says the world won't recognize the results of a vote held under what it says are "threats of violence and intimidation from a Russian military intervention that violates international law."

A written statement from the White House calls Russia's actions in Ukraine "dangerous and destabilizing."

The U.S. is urging other nations to "take concrete steps to impose costs" against Russia.

more
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[africanadian]

1. The truly odd part...

is that 51% also voted for George W Bush to be President of Crimea.

[cprise]

51. The really odd part is the NATO countries don't consider

the parlaiment's vote to oust Yanukovych--while armed insurgents were running though government buildings calling for his execution--to also be the product of intimidation.

[Scootaloo]

52. The WEIRDEST thing about the vote...

Is that Saddam Hussein is now President of Crimea - apparently, his fifth straight win.

[reformist2]

2. Why are we recognizing the new government in Ukraine, then??? This is so stupid.

[penultimate]

6. Do you believe the majority of Ukrainians in the rest of the country want to be part of Russia?

[newthinking]

22. No, but I believe that the goverment in Ukraine does not represent the majority and that has led to

everything we are seeing now. It was predictable.

-International Republican institute and other "NGO"s fomenting false information, supporting radical right wing groups (and lesser right wing of course) and putting Billions of dollars in the effort

Neocons Have Weathered the Storm (and are back in force)
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/14-9

- Kagen's wife (Project for a New American Century) is firmly in the middle of things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland

- Alliances made with Neo Nazi groups (likely in return for the cabinet level positions they now have in government)

- The overthrow is firmly on the back of the Neo-Nazi's, who systematically threaten Party of regions officials and their families throughout much of Ukraine with violence, burn down offices, attempt to outlaw opposition parties, escelate the violence at maidan, ignore the agreement, then once the opposition is away from their offices in fear, they take the partliment buildings with the blessing of all.

- New government looks more like a far right "Tea Party" and does not represent the Ukrainian people in general

"How the far-right took top posts in Ukraine's power vacuum"
http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

[arewenotdemo]

27. I suspected that was Clinton's appointment.

"Hillary Clinton elevated Kagan’s wife, Victoria Nuland, to be State Department spokesperson."

[cosmicone]

28. +1,000,000 n/t

[andlor]

67. +1000!

[wisteria]

57. +1

[jtuck004]

10. Because we helped pay to get it in there. Over $5 billion. Plus cookies n/t

[newthinking]

19. International Republican Institute and Project for a new American Century

Amazing how seven many liberals have bought the line they are being fed.

-International Republican institute and other "NGO"s fomenting false information, supporting radical right wing groups (and lesser right wing of course) and putting Billions of dollars in the effort

Neocons Have Weathered the Storm (and are back in force)
https://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/03/14-9

- Kagen's wife (Project for a New American Century) is firmly in the middle of things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland

- Alliances made with Neo Nazi groups (likely in return for the cabinet level positions they now have in government)

- The overthrow is firmly on the back of the Neo-Nazi's, who systematically threaten Party of regions officials and their families throughout much of Ukraine with violence, burn down offices, attempt to outlaw opposition parties, escelate the violence at maidan, ignore the agreement, then once the opposition is away from their offices in fear, they take the partliment buildings with the blessing of all.

- New government looks more like a far right "Tea Party" and does not represent the Ukrainian people in general

How the far-right took top posts in Ukraine's power vacuum
http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

[go west young man]

35. Great mining for info as always.

Juan Cole just covered this very same subject. http://www.juancole.com/2014/03/neoconservatives-comeback-ukraine.html

It seems those who have been labeling a faction of DU'ers "Putin apologists" can now consider themselves fans of the NeoCon agenda. My how this place has changed. Thanks to all the NeoCon fans here at DU soon the NeoCons will be in full swing again and that pesky thing called the Iraq War will be just a memory that Bill Kristol and his buddies won't have to ponder upon.

[LarryNM]

40. +1000 n/t

[JudyM]

3. What? Not 100%? nt

[Adrahil]

11. This! Putin's thugs are slacking. To the Gulag with them! NT

[JoeyT]

16. Like the vote to oust Yanukovych was?

That's one of the reasons I haven't trusted any source of information this entire conflict: I've never seen near unanimous votes for anything that weren't the result of rigging, corruption, or threats.

If you took a vote for "Oxygen is good" or "The Sun is warm" you'd have a handful of people that would oppose it for one reason or another, even if it was just sheer spite for the person that proposed it.

[Adrahil]

50. The vote to vote oust Yanukovych was not near unanimous, though....

It was a bit over 70%. Most of those opposed did not cast a vote.

[JoeyT]

56. I think that's what happened here, too.

A huge boycott of the vote itself, since, as others pointed out the choices were "Join Russia now" and "Join Russia later".

I tend to automatically distrust any vote that comes in over 75% or so for anything. We have half of our freaking population that will gleefully vote for people that openly acknowledge they hate them. "We're only fit for serfdom, huh? Sounds good to me! Fire up the truck and we'll head to the votin' machine! We gotta stop them damn librals from arglebargle!"

[newthinking]

20. those opposed boycotted. But anyone who knows the cultural makeup of crimea knows

that the majority fall on the opposite side from the current government.

There has been serious talk of joining Russia since the collapse of the soviet union.

The events in Kiev, meant to solidify Ukraine to the west were a huge miscalculation. It drove the population of Crimea right into the hands of Putin.

[arewenotdemo]

32. A miscalculation only if Obama wasn't OK with Ukraine losing Crimea...

so long as it joined the EU and NATO. Only a complete fool could not have foreseen this outcome.

He absolutely forced Putin's hand. The neo-cons have been running Obama's foreign policy show.

His total lack of resistance strongly suggests he has been one all along.

[djg21]

74. This is my understanding too.

Almost 60% of the Crimean population considers itself Russian; less than 28% is Ukranian; and 12% is Tatar (Muslim).

If Putin had allowed international poll watchers, there would be no issue.

[cheapdate]

4. I'm not especially concerned with politics in Crimea or Ukraine.

I don't have much interest in taking sides in this remote, political battle. There are issues at home I'm far more interested in. I'd rather the United States keep neutral and stay out of it (although, obviously that's not going to happen.)

[cosmicone]

29. smart person you are ... n/t

[go west young man]

36. Ditto.

[840high]

37. Thank you - I was

just going to post something similar.

[AngryDem001]

61. +1,000,000!

Also, I'd like to see less FOREIGN aid and more DOMESTIC aid.

[davidpdx]

64. It's short sided an naive to take that kind of a stance

Something that is out of the early 20th century. I'm not advocating military action, but we should be trying to help find a solution. If you want a policy like that vote for Rand Paul in the next election because that is about what he supports.

[cheapdate]

70. Actually, I think Rand Paul is stumping for increased US involvement in Ukraine.

But, that's the not the issue. As I explained earlier, the issue is that my ability to rapidly come up to speed on politics in Venezuela, Ukraine, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Sudan, Mali, Libya, Syria, etc., etc., etc., has about reached its limit.

I'd love it if US foreign policy in Ukraine was as you said, a neutral effort to help the two sides find a solution. But that's not reality. The reality is that US policy is not neutral. We've chosen a side, which as it turns out, is a side whose leadership is populated by far-right fascists. Our position sets us on a path toward increased long-term conflict and renewed hostility toward Russia. For extra measure, the conflict includes a dispute over the ownership of huge sums of gas revenue.

I'd prefer the US not to get involved in this complicated political dispute. Jimmy Carter involved the US in Nicaraguan and El Salvadoarn politics with the best of intentions. The results were ultimately disatrous and I don't see many ways that US involvement in this dispute in Ukraine could turn out well for either Ukraine or the US.

Fuck Rand Paul. I'm not an isolationist, but I'm not a blind interventionist either.

As you put it to me:

"If you want a policy like that vote for (John McCain) in the next election because that is about what he supports."

[justhanginon]

5. Sounds like the Russians learned some of

their tactics from the GOP/Corpocracy tactics in the runup to the Tennessee Volkswagon plant voting on whether to unionize.

[BeyondGeography]

7. Saddam won by more

[Jack for Sanders]

8. The other 7% voted for Ralph Nader

So there is that.

[Adrahil]

12. LOL NT

[tarheelsunc]

9. This vote is less legitimate than Kim Jong-Un's reelection.

The 100% in that one was probably an honest measure given the level of fear. The 93% in no way represents the real opinion of Crimeans since most of the opposition boycotted the vote and the only two choices pretty much were "join Russia now" or "join Russia later."

[former9thward]

34. No those weren't the choices.

The choices were to join Russia or to join Ukraine under the terms of the 1992 Constitution. Try again.

[jamzrockz]

55. Do you have any link

supporting what you just said about the opinions in the ballot?

[former9thward]

58. Yes.

Preliminary results
Join the Russian Federation 93%

Restore the 1992 Constitution and its status within Ukraine 7%

Blank votes
0%
Invalid
0%
Turnout so far is at over 80%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014

[Incitatus]

72. The news report I saw showed two seperate boxes for voters to drop their ballots.

One box for Russia and one for Ukraine with plenty Russian supporters hanging around watching. If that was really the case and representative of how it was in all precincts, the vote numbers do not surprise me.

[2banon]

75. Are you getting your information from Fox News? Completely opposite of the facts.

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Turnout would be a more meaningful number, since the opposition boycotted it

and, given the lack of properly independent observers, you'd want to know who's counting it, and what their evidence is.

[dipsydoodle]

17. Did you notice

they use pencils and pieces pf paper same as us.

[go west young man]

38. Actually Dipsy we don't use those things anymore.

We let machines that can't be fully scrutinized count our votes in secret. Oh the irony.

[dipsydoodle]

41. Yes I know about your stuff

[go west young man]

44. Actually I'm from England...

same as you. Naturalized US citizen for 30 years at this point. I've always wondered what the Russians had to say about GW Bush's brothers Secretary of State deciding the election of 2000. Had that happened in Russia we would have screamed bloody murder. Over here it's just par for the course. Nothing to see here..move along. And the right-wingers who orchestrated that charade are now back up to their old tricks and getting plenty of support even here at DU. Just because it's Russia.

[joshcryer]

23. The highest number I see is 44%:

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723766

Even 50% would not be a true show of support. It'd need to be something like 55%-60%.

[840high]

39. look

erevalnoye, Ukraine (CNN) -- Preliminary results in Sunday's referendum on whether Ukraine's Crimea region should join Russia or become an independent state show overwhelming support for Russia.

With 75% percent of the ballots counted, close to 96% of voters want to become part of that country, according to the Crimean Electoral Commission. An official had announced earlier that more than 80% of voters had cast ballots by the time polls closed at 8 p.m. local time (2 p.m. ET) Sunday.

[T. J. Kong]

43. Voter turnout was placed at between 75 and 80 percent

Voter turnout was placed at between 75 and 80 percent

I also read that the turnout was the highest on record, too.

I suspect that seeing a bunch of armed neo-fascists, roaming the streets, killing cops, and hunting democratically elected, however corrupt, leaders, has a way of motivating folks to get off their sofa. Particularly a state that has had horrific experience with the their evil forebearers.

I remembering being for the protestors on the streets of Independence Square in Kiev in 2013, not really having a strong grasp of what all their grievances were, but was well aware of the corruption of their Gov. (like most others, since the banksters started running the show) but after being surprised by their violence, I started digging deeper, and what I found started making a lot more tragic sense.

"Fuck the EU! - Exactly!" - US-Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs - Feb 6th 2014

[go west young man]

45. Great first post!

Welcome to DU.

[T. J. Kong]

48. Thank you "go west young man" for the warm welcome!

It is sooooo good to be at, a least one, American site that still allows intelligent discussion (and not just childish shouting, and snark, with M$M approved dichotomous "logic&quot on critical, issues of the day.

Priceless.

[Adrahil]

66. Probably thousands of Russians suddenly became "Crimeans"

[happyslug]

69. 58% of Crimeans were Russians to start with

Only 25% of the population of the Crimea are ethnic Ukrainians, 12% are Tartars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

You have to understand the Crimea, it has been attached to Russia since the 1700s, and has been their base against the Turkish Empire since that date. Thus only the most loyal Russians were permitted to move into the Crimea, and then such movement was tied in with the expansion of the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

That was under the Czars, with the revolution of 1917 things changed, the Soviet Union EXPANDED their military bases in the Crimea. During WWII Stalin moved out the second largest group in the Crimea, the Crimea Tartars. After 1954 the Tartars were permitted back into the Crimea, but the Tartars permitted back in where checked for they loyalty to Russia first.

Now, with the Revolution of 1989, the Soviet Union broke up and the Crimea became a hot spot between the Ukraine and Russia. Russia wanted to keep its fleet in the Crimea, as the the people of the Crimea, but the Ukraine wanted to retain it, for it was a source of income for the Ukraine do to the Russia fleet being stationed in the Crimea.

An agreement was worked out, Crimea stayed in the Ukraine, but Russia retained the right to use it as its Naval Base.

In 2004 the Ukraine made a commitment to break with Russia and get closer to the EU. This lead to several things, first a decline in their overall economy, The Russian Rubles went UP as the Ukrainian hryvnia went down (Both have been stable to each other since 2010, the decline occurred between 2004 and 2010).

Second, a break between the Eastern parts of the Ukraine (the part of the Ukraine most tied in with Russia), that lead to a decline in that part of the country over and above what happened in the Ukraine as a whole.

Third, increase debt to RUSSIA, given Russia is the major source of energy for the Ukraine (Russia said, if you do no want to be part of Russia, fine, then pay the price Russia charges Foreigners) Russia charged the Ukraine full price for Natural Gas (This hurt the Eastern part of the Ukraine, but the people living in the Eastern Ukraine blamed Kiev NOT Moscow for the price increase).

This lead to a split in the Ukraine, the industrialized Eastern part of the Ukraine, came to see merger with Russia as they best option, while the Western part of the Ukraine saw that as a Nightmare. Thus the Western Part of the Ukraine liked the proposal from the EU for a 3 Billion Dollar loan and austerity (which would mostly hit the Eastern Regions) while the Eastern Part supported Putin come back, 15 million and a 40% drop in Natural Gas prices (The later helping the Eastern and Southern part of the Ukraine the most).

Sorry, given that back ground, I can see a 95% yes vote for Russia. It is like the 95% vote for Obama in Harlem in New York City, The Watts area of Los Angles and other areas of heavy African America Population. Voting to merge with Russia makes economic and ethnically sense to the locals.

Side note: about 12% of the Population of the Crimea is Tartar, and Putin has made an effort to get them to support the merger with Russia. The leader of the Tartar has told his people to boycott the election, but has also shown signs that he prefer a Russian ruled Crimea then a Ukrainian Ruled Crimea. If most Ukrainians boycott the election, and most Russian and Tartars vote, that could be a 80% turn out and a 95% yes vote. Thus Russia and Tartars make up over 70% of the population of the Crimea, about 25% are Ukrainians with the remainder various other small ethnic groups (Most of whom prefer an enemy they know, Russia, to one they do not know, the groups behind the present government of the Ukraine).

[jtuck004]

14. "threats of violence and intimidation <- Like the democracy we bombed Iraq with?

Funny part is, most of these people seem to actually want them there. Vs our own experience.

[ozone_man]

42. That's right! Iraquis never got to vote on our intrusion.

I'm sure they are much better off now. Especially with all that depleted uranium in the environment, 100's of thousands dead, maimed people, and their oil no longer nationalized. Democracy is great!

[azurnoir]

15. Vladamir Putin is an abomible excuse for a human something is being ignored studiously so in fact

that being until 1954 the Crimea was part of Russia, in 1954 Nikita Khrushchev 'gave' the Crimea to the Ukraine as a sort of gift, and perhaps that explains why the people in the Crimea have voted the way they have

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. If the Crimean parliament had actually organised a fair referendum

with impartial observers, no Russian troops on the street, and the local media able to operate freely and broadcast opinions, and news from the rest of Ukraine, I'd say such a referendum could be recognised; it is plausible that a majority of residents would prefer to be part of Russia. But the way they did it is an evil parody of democracy.

[azurnoir]

21. so Russian troops forced Crimeans to vote for them? or simply forced the referendum itself ? eta

and I take it that the Crimean people were not given a choice when USSR 'gave' Crimea to the Ukraine is meaningless here?

if Western publication had not so studiously omitted that bit of history I might take this more seriously as it is there is plenty to condemn Putin for including his vile antiGay laws but I'm not sure this particular item is entirely valid

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. No, the history is not meaningless

That is why the concept of a referendum to join Russia is valid; it's the implementation that is a savage farce. Russian troops shut down all Ukrainian language TV stations in Crimea, and replaced the broadcasts with Russian (ie the country of Russia) programmes, which have a load of lies about Ukraine on them currently. The Crimean population is currently being massively lied to by the Russian government, and that makes the referendum invalid.

[azurnoir]

26. as are we in the West being lied to

if only by omission

[Ash_F]

25. US outlawed entire political parties in Iraq with the threat of imprisonment and violence.

People went to prison for passing out political reading material.

The Whitehouse should get off its high horse.

[cosmicone]

30. You are correct

The US has unclean hands in every conflict

[lostincalifornia]

53. Really. World War II?

[Adam051188]

54. our government has clean hands in WW2.

who lent Hitler the money to start his war machine?

[lostincalifornia]

59. It wasn't the government it was the industrialists and corporations

[bhikkhu]

60. I care about Crimea being allowed to freely chose its own fate

but. from what I have seen, that's what happened. The russians were certainly heavy-handed about seeing that it was done, but we have been guilty of the same in every similar situation I can think of.

Analogies aren't as important as the result, which is that the majority of people in Crimea chose to leave Ukraine and rejoin Russia. In other circumstances, from everything I have read and heard about it, the same choice would be made over and over again. I hope the whole thing ramps down peacefully. There are so many other regions where populations are "held" more or less against their will, and a general solution or a model for resolving such things is really lacking. The sacred aspect of old borders and sovereignty really doesn't settle things like it used to - we need a new model.

[jamzrockz]

62. On the other hand

Do you really believe that the coup leaders in Kiev would have allowed Crimea to vote for independence without Russia protection? Ofc not, as we speak, Kiev is readying 20k army recruits to be sent in eastern states to stamp out any potential uprising. Its do like I say and not like I do.

[bhikkhu]

68. No, it could have easily been a violent mess

and, realistically, Russia's heavy hand is probably what kept things peaceful overall (though I hate to support things like that).

[bigdarryl]

31. Why is it our bussiness who they vote for when in this country

The rethug party is trying to prevent people of color from voting in this country.

[AAO]

33. The exit polls are never reliable!

[go west young man]

46. Maybe at 11:55 the system will go down...

and all the TV channels will suddenly reflect new numbers out of the blue....oh wait a minute..that was Ohio 2004.

[T. J. Kong]

47. Florida 2000 53.4-43.6%

Gore won the unadjusted Florida exit poll (1816 respondents) by 53.4-43.6%.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/stolenelections.html

[AAO]

71. I had a sarcasm smiley too!

[blkmusclmachine]

49. Who "counted" the votes ?!?!

[dipsydoodle]

65. Well it wasn't Diebold

Crimea noticeably used pencils and pieces of paper for voting : same as the UK.

Final results showed that 96.8% of voters were in favour of joining Russia, the head of the referendum commission said. Mikhail Malyshev told a televised news conference that the commission has not registered a single complaint about the vote. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/17/ukraine-crimea-russia-referendum-complain-result

[DeSwiss]

63. 93% of Crimea Votes to Join Russia....

...while 6% of Crimea Votes to Join the Klingon Empire, 1 % remains undecided.

- I have to say that the Klingon's do offer a better security plan........


''Once you go Klingon you never go backon.....''


K&R

[Cha]

73. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the..

troops of a foreign country".

Svitlana Zalischuk "rejects the vote" in Crimea, too..

The Fight for Democracy in Ukraine: A Conversation with Center UA’s Svitlana Zalischuk

BY Micah L. Sifry

“In the third and last part of our conversation, I asked Zalischuk about the referendum about to take place in Russian-occupied Crimea and the massive Russian troop presence across the border from eastern Ukraine. “Russian invaded Ukraine,” she said, mincing no words about Vladimir Putin’s actions in the wake of Yanukovych’s departure from office. “The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

This is not a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, she said, it’s a conflict between the civilized world and totalitarianism, one that undermines the whole architecture of the European and world community. I asked her about the idea that the democracy movement in Ukraine was mostly strongest in the western part of the country and not so much from the eastern half, where Yanukovych got the majority of votes. She said the picture was more complicated, because Yanukovych himself had campaigned in favor of stronger ties with Europe when he was running for president.”

http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/24827/fight-democracy-ukraine-conversation-center-uas-svitlana-zalischuk

Thanks DV