US ponders military exercises in Baltics in bid to reassure Russia's neighbours

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Guardian

US ponders military exercises in Baltics in bid to reassure Russia's neighbours

Joe Biden says US exploring sending ground troops to Baltic region to try to prevent further territorial aggression by Russia

Dan Roberts in Washington
theguardian.com, Tuesday 18 March 2014 14.43 EDT

The US is considering sending ground troops to the Baltic states on new military exercises as it seeks to reassure Nato allies in eastern Europe of its commitment to preventing further territorial incursion by Russia.

Vice president Joe Biden spoke of the plan during a meeting with the Estonian president Toomas Ilves after calls for a tougher US response to Russia’s attempted annexation of the Crimea.

It follows a Pentagon announcement of extra US F-15 jets to join Nato patrols in Poland and the Baltic on March 5, and recent requests by the Ukrainian government for possible US military assistance outside the Nato area.

“We are exploring a number of additional steps to increase the pace and scope of our military co-operation, including rotating US forces to the Baltic region to conduct ground and naval exercises – as well as training missions,” said Biden.


Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/us-military-exercises-baltics-russia

[Catherina]

1. Total insanity Everything's going according to plan. Neos pissing in their shorts from joy n/t

[fleabiscuit]

14. Umm, "insanity" is pretty good.

I’m going to go with ‘Batshit ludicrous bullshit.’ I'm hoping that source is really out to lunch.

Replacing “crazy” for ableism and preciseness of language
http://whatprivilege.com/replacing-crazy-for-ableism-and-preciseness-of-language/

snip
"...Finding the word
You’ll have to ask yourself what you actually mean in order to figure out how to convey your thought to someone who’s not living in your head with you. I’m not going to get into every possible usage of crazy, i.e., “the weather’s crazy all over the place.” I’m sure you can figure out alternative terms and phrases for those things on your own.
I am going to cover some replacements for “crazy” in the context of describing human beings. Because mental illness is not well-understood (and most people receive little or no education in it, even with what’s considered a good liberal arts education), it can be a struggle to express better how someone’s just plain “crazy.” This list will help..."
snip

[coldbeer]

23. ‘Batshit ludicrous bullshit.’

fleabiscuit, you have a way with words. !!!

I googled "batshit crazy" because I was trying to think of this this
lunatic who is batshit batshit .... google gave me Bachman ...
made my day!

thanks fleabiscuit!!!

[TeeYiYi]

16. I smell money...

In the age of instant information and social media, we're witnessing the rollout of the new mic boogeyman.

TYY

[Catherina]

35. This one was easy too, just dust off all the old stuff

and with the added bonus that our populations had 60 years of anti-Russia brainwashing.

[TwilightGardener]

2. Russia really shouldn't have mentioned the "Russians" in Latvia. That was

el-stupido.

[geek tragedy]

5. Yep, oopsie on that.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304020104579429332129542004

Not used to having truly independent states in the Baltic.

[bahrbearian]

3. There is alway money for the Military

[geek tragedy]

4. Russia has routinely tried to bully the Baltic states since they escaped its leash

back in 1989.

With the Russia asserting its right to intervene militarily anywhere it claims ethinic Russians are being mistreated and to 'liberate' territories with ethnic Russians living in them for annexation by Mother Russia, hell yes they're going to want reassurances that NATO will defend them.

The Russians hate the Estonians and would like nothing more than to dish out some punishment to them.

Russia is going to experience blowback for its actions.

[7962]

6. I believe this would be a good thing. Russia has a large, but hollow military. Mostly conscripts.

A show of support for some of these smaller countries, who actually ask for it, will be a sign for all of Europe. Russia is not the only country watching what we do; the whole world is. And if it looks like we can be bullied by a country with a smaller GDP than Brazil, we will end up in a lonely and dangerous place.

[pangaia]

22. Why WE?

Let Europeans handle it. They have guns and planes, I think..probably bought most of them from us.

[CFLDem]

29. That was tried twice before.

Then we realized they couldn't handle their shit and had to step in.

Much better for all involved if we don't follow the previous world war scripts and instead approached this from a position of strength.

[840high]

34. ...^ that

[7962]

36. Because its high time we realize no one will do ANYTHING if we're not involved. Look at the Balkans

Genocide happening right in their own backyard and they couldn't bring themselves to do anything about it. Until Pres Clinton stepped in. Look at Rwanda. Clinton said that was his biggest regret; not stepping in. No one else did either. The only country that doesnt wait for the US is Israel, but they dont dare go outside their own backyard because then it would be all about them.

Too many countries in this world only respect power, nothing else. If we dont stand up to Putin, he WILL take other countries. He'll have to "protect" all those Russians living elsewhere. Estonia, Latvia, etc. He wants the USSR back. Its been obvious for years. He backs Iran and Syria, among others.

We may not like it, but thats they way it is.

[pangaia]

43. I agree with you.

But, maybe it is time we found a way to get other countries with the means to get off their asses, so to speak.

[JackRiddler]

46. The U.S. and France both intervened in Rwanda.

Western powers intervened in Rwanda years before the genocide in 1994. France and the US armed and dispatched the sides in the eventual civil war. Rwanda was a French client state. The USG set up the Museveni regime in Uganda, where it then armed and trained the Rwandan Patriotic Front under the leadership of Paul Kagame. He received military training at Ft. Leavenworth.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023544340

[7962]

47. My comment mentioned Clinton mentioning not intervening in 94 as his biggest regret.

Any prior involvement would just be MORE reason to have put a stop to the massive killing that was going on. Just as many mention how we armed and helped the Afghans run the Russians out and then left them to themselves without any continued help from the west. And look what happened there.

[JackRiddler]

48. Right, and Clinton is lying.

His government was intervening in Rwanda. As was France. The two imperialist powers backed different sides in the conflict prior to the genocide. It's amazingly ahistorical of Clinton to pretend his role was as a bystander, which he now purports to regret. As a participant, he can't pretend he didn't participate, but should have participated so as to do something that was actually opposed in spirit to what he actually did. He doesn't even condemn France for its intervention to support the genocidaires during the genocide! That would have been hypocritical, but at least it would have related to true facts, and would not have been completely divorced from the reality of the actual, indisputable, historically documented Western military interventions in Rwanda at that time.

The myth of Rwanda as a case of "failure to intervene" by the West to deter the genocide, when in fact Western powers were intervening militarily to make things worse, has become one of the favored canards of "humanitarian" interventionists (read: drummers for new Western wars) ever since.

[7962]

50. PRIOR is the key word. The US or Europe couldve stopped what was going on by simply showing up.

The UN was there and as usual, did nothing but watch. You can keep blaming the us and france all you want. The Hutus did the killing. I dont think the humanitarian interventions in Haiti and during the Tsunami and earthquakes are viewed as drumming for new wars.
Or now, we can do nothing. Let Putin have whichever countries he chooses. Let N Korea invade the South. Let China take land from the Japanese and expand further into the Pacific. Let iran continue to support terrorist groups and make a nuke. Let the Serbs start over again and finally take Bosnia and Kosovo. Sounds like 1938 all over again.

[JackRiddler]

51. I know, you don't want to get it.

In 1994, the Hutu Power militias did most of the killing (not "Hutus&quot , but possibly the conditions for the genocide wouldn't have occurred in the first place if not for -military! - intervention in Rwandan affairs by two Western powers acting out of their perceived geostrategic interests (which is the only reason the motherfuckers in power ever act, even when they do the occasional good thing during a natural disaster because for reasons of PR).

And the direct intervention by French troops in support of the genocidaires (read that, damn it!) was not PRIOR, it was DURING. They were there! How can you discuss the theoretical bullshit about what the West could have done while ignoring what the West actually did? There was a Western intervention during the genocide, and it illustrates perfectly what's wrong with intervention.

The rest of your rant is standard neo-con war-lovers' American century boilerplate. There's always a reason -- many reasons! -- for the U.S. to spend a trillion dollars on the military (not enough! too low!!! alert alert!) and intervene militarily everywhere in the world.

Or else: Hitler!!!

[7962]

56. Yes, I'm a neocon. I didnt know neocons could think the Iraq war was a crime.

But let's just keep on going down the road ignoring what others do. Lers see where it gets us with Iran, North Korea, etc. Now that Vlad has his chest pumped up, lets see whats next on his agenda. He's going to push against us even more. My bet is we wont like it. I hope YOU are right and I am wrong. But I doubt it. We'll see soon enough.

[JackRiddler]

58. I didn't say you were a neocon.

You are giving neocon boilerplate. About that, there is no dispute here. Your little speech could just as easily come from Kristol or a supporter of McCain.

Neocon boilerplate is largely similar to liberal imperialist boilerplate:

Watch out for China, who's going to stop Russia, Iran, North Korea, U.S. forces are needed all around the world to police and intervene for peace and justice.

And you topped it off with the classic neocon boilerplate ("1938!&quot and, of course, the wilfully ignorant abuse of the Rwanda example.

And North Korea? Really?! Get real. It's a starving nation with about the third the population of South Korea. The only conceivable threat is their nuclear weapons, which they'll never use except to posture and get aid packages. If they ever do, fine, we're in agreement: nuke them. That doesn't require any U.S. forces in South Korea.

Fuck that. A trillion dollars a year into this bullshit, so as to create the enemies they pretend to defend against, and to build a surveillance empire. Fuck them. Fuck the Pentagon.

Meanwhile, children in this country actually starve!

Sir (I'll presume; that's likely), I do not belong to your "we." We are both U.S. citizens, presumably. But your "we" is definitely not mine. You don't speak for America. America is not a "we" that you get to direct against phantom enemies. That's the most fundamental pro-war boilerplate.

[7962]

57. Well, that didnt take long

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014759557

[JackRiddler]

59. Successfully provoked. Congrats.

Just like with the coup d'etat the U.S. supported to replace the Ukrainian elected government (elections were next year) with a coalition that includes open fascists, and that immediately attacked the Russian language (it's not like there was any more pressing issue).

Hip-hip hooray.

I remember the Cold War. The hardliners at Pentagon and Kremlin were ultimately allies, against the dream of a different world. Mission accomplished.

[7962]

61. You sure you shouldnt be over at "Infowars"?

[JackRiddler]

62. With a bunch of right-wing American nationalists?

I think you'd fit right in.

Is that your level? (Duh....)

What's the title of this thread, again?

[geek tragedy]

66. ya, poor widdle innocent Russia has been provoked into threatening an invasion of

yet another of its neighbors. Why oh why do people insist on forcing Russia to threaten the nations it's bullied for centuries?

[Lurks Often]

7. Paranoia on both sides

Russia has a long history of being invaded from West & East, so the inclusion of the former Warsaw Pact nations into Nato makes them nervous.

The former Warsaw Pact nations have first hand knowledge of being under Russian control and don't want a repeat, so they joined Nato because Russia makes them nervous.

It's not as if the Europeans have a long history of playing nice with each other either..............

[christx30]

9. See, if Russia hadn't of

treated people like crap and killed millions of them during the USSR days, they wouldn't have any reason to be nervous. Stalin killed more people than Hitler. They deserve any animosity that is directed toward them by other countries that used to be in Russia's sphere of influence.
And as an ex-member of the KGB, Putin was part of the problem, which is another reason they don't trust him. I don't think it's paranoia on the part of the Baltic countries at all. It's a well founded fear and mistrust.

[7962]

11. ^^^^^^This!

[TeeYiYi]

13. Yeah, but...

...he's just a guy that likes to fish and ride horses in the countryside with his shirt off. I'm sure if you could see his eyes behind those groovy shades, you'd feel the same way as I do... kinda' warm and fuzzy all over. So, move along. Nothing to see here except sexy...



TYY

[christx30]

15. Good point, actually.

George Bush Jr. looked into his eyes and saw a good soul.
And if you can't trust an endorsement from Bush, who can you trust?
Forget everything I said. Russia is good. Putin is good. Everything is fine. La la la!!!

[Octafish]

45. George Bush was afraid of horses.

Wasn't afraid to show his appreciation for thoroughbred plants, however.

[red dog 1]

54. John Wayne was afraid of horses too

(From Cracked.com)
"if there was one thing John Wayne hated more than commies, it was horses.
Or at least he hated riding them."

[red dog 1]

53. He loves horses; but hates reporters, especially those who disagree with him

(Oftentimes reporters who disagree with him mysteriously disappear)

He is a "Macho Man" though:
(From Wikipedia)
"Notable examples of Putin's macho adventures include:
Flying military jets,
Demonstrating his martial art skills
Riding horses, rafting, fishing, swimming in a cold Siberian river (doing all that bare chested)
Tranquilizing tigers and polar bears with a tranquilizer gun,
Shooting darts at whales from a cross-bow for eco-tracking,
Driving a race car,
Riding motorcycles,(bare-chested?)
Scuba diving at an archaeological site,
Attempting to lead endangered cranes in a motorized hang glider, and much more.

Too bad he's also a homophobic, war-mongering asshole.

[epona]

8. Tensions escalating with Russia and US at same time that plane is missing?

Are you at all concerned about the tensions between US and Russia happening at the same time as the plane has gone missing? I had read that there were scientist on board that hold patents on the microprocessors that are in our weapons?

"On Saturday, Texas-based Freescale Semiconductor confirmed that 20 employees were passengers on Flight 370. Twelve are from Malaysia and eight from China, the company said." http://media.freescale.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=196520&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1907348&highlight=

http://www.cwcdefense.com/media-center/white-papers/embedded-high-assurance-computing-using-the-freescale-trust-architecture.html

http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=P4080

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/08/world/asia/malaysia-airlines-plane-passengers/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/465557/Malaysian-plane-20-on-board-worked-for-ELECTRONIC-WARFARE-and-radar-defence-company

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/us-military-exercises-baltics-russia

[MineralMan]

12. Post Hoc Ergo Proper Hoc

That's Latin for "jumping to the wrong conclusion based on coincidence."

[Holbrook22]

28. Actually, it means 'after this therefore because of this.'

Its more specific than just jumping to the wrong conclusion. It's a conclusion that's wrong in a particular way, namely, thinking that one thing causes another just because the one thing happens before the other thing. Famous example of this fallacy: the sun comes up after the rooster crows; therefore the crowing of the rooster causes the sun to rise.

[Igel]

30. Consider it a contextually-driven translation. n/t

[MineralMan]

49. Yes, I'm aware of that.

I was responding to the poster in the context of that post. The word "coincidence" at the end of my very loose translation is the explanation of the actual translation from the Latin.

It is the coincidence that causes the cause and effect logical error. Without coincidence, there is no error.

Thank you for your reply.

[okaawhatever]

10. +100 nt

[cosmicone]

17. Oh No!!! This will make Putin wet his pants

Just the announcement is making him shake in his boots.

[Berlin Expat]

18. No, but

if NATO did something comparable to Able Archer 83, that might make him a little nervous. Especially if we don't inform the Russians that we're going to do something on that scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83

[geek tragedy]

19. the announcement isn't supposed to scare him, just remind him

that he's not allowed to lay a finger on the Baltics

[Berlin Expat]

20. Yep....it needs

to be made crystal clear to Putin that the Baltics and the former Eastern Bloc states are totally off-limits. End of story, period.

[okaawhatever]

68. Putin needs to be scared of f#$#king with NATO. That's why he won't touch Estonia unless

he's lost his mind. It will take several more years of training and building up Russia's military before he can touch NATO's power and he knows that. That is why he's screwing with everyone on this. NATO and the Baltics need to do something to show that we will invoke Article 5 and NATO just isn't a paper tiger. When we do Putin will be like, "chill out, gosh guys. You're overreacting. I'm not gonna invade, I just said I was worried, what are you paranoid?" and it should be over Then he will go back to Russia and say,"look at these videos. I told you the West was nuts Look at the war they tried to start with us.". His poll numbers will go up and all will be happy in Moscow again.

[rdharma]

21. Oh, joy! The Military Industrial Complex LOVES "sword rattling"......

[geek tragedy]

27. given that the Russians/USSR in the past conscripted people from the Baltics

for forced labor at Chernobyl, one could understand why they want to make sure the Russians don't get any ideas.

[rdharma]

31. Keep up with the nonsense.......

...military conscription was universal in the Soviet Union.

BTW - It was the Soviet Union who drafted ..... not the "Russians".

Still fighting the cold war, old boy? Sad!

How about Vietnam? You still fighting that one too?

[geek tragedy]

32. The past is never dead, it's not even past. nt

[rdharma]

33. To your time machine, Mr. Peabody! nt

[bitchkitty]

52. LOL! n/t

[7962]

37. "Russia" still has mandatory military conscription. Same thing regardless of how you name them. nt

[rdharma]

38. I never claimed that Russia DIDN'T have military conscription.

Many countries still do. What's your point?

[7962]

39. You made such a deal about Soviet Union vs Russia. You dont think they'll be Crimeans drafted too?

[rdharma]

40. You need to catch up on the conversation.

You don't seem to know what's being discussed.

Sure ......I think Crimeans will be conscripted into the military when they join Russia. But that wasn't the point of discussion.

Please come back and leave your comments when you've caught up on the topic.

[7962]

41. Yes, your response to reply#27, who points out that these countries have every reason to fear Russia

You seem to think all that matters is defense companies will be happy. Maybe you should read up on the history of appeasement over the past century.

[rdharma]

42. Sorry... but post #27 is pure BS!

Conscription for clean up service in Chernobyl was not targeted.

We would have used this on them like stink on......... if it were true.

[Earth_First]

24. Nice diplomatic strategy...

That'll go a long way towards diffusing an already tense situation.

[rdharma]

25. The RW nuts want confrontation........

..... and the fat cats in the MIC are laughing ............all the way to the bank.

[mazzarro]

44. Seems that there are RW DU nuts as well gearing for war - n/t

[JackRiddler]

60. Got tired of Snowden?

There were plenty in 2003, talking the same shit, structurally speaking.

[joshcryer]

63. Flat out falsehood.

[JackRiddler]

64. 2003? You betcha.

About a third of the posts on the planned war of aggression favored it, as did of course Sen. Clinton and Kerry, et al., citing the familiar talking points about WMD and rape rooms.

[joshcryer]

65. Link a post?

I don't remember that at all.

[JackRiddler]

67. We'll have to differ in our recollections.

Tell you what, if you can figure out how to search the site from 9/2002 to 3/2003, you'll find plenty. Google Advanced offers very limited results, all of them by appearances front-page articles, not posts.

https://www.google.com/search?q=google+advanced&biw=1280&bih=681&sa=X&ei=SiEqU6iGLsjn0gGQiIDADA&ved=0CBgQpwUoBg&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A09%2F01%2F2002%2Ccd_max%3A03%2F20%2F2003&tbm=

[lumpy]

26. I don't have faith in flexing military muscle to solve problems.

[red dog 1]

55. K&R...Thanks for posting