Racial disparities in public school students suspended starts in preschool

[Redfairen]

Source: Associated Press

Even preschoolers are getting suspended from U.S. public schools — and they're disproportionately black, a trend that continues up through the later grades.

Data to be released Friday by the Education Department's civil rights arm finds that black children represent about 18 percent of children enrolled in preschool programs in schools, but almost half of the students suspended more than once. Six percent of the nation's districts with preschools reported suspending at least one preschool child.

.......

Earlier this year, the Obama administration issued guidance encouraging schools to abandon what it described as overly zealous discipline policies that send students to court instead of the principal's office. But, even before the announcement, school districts have been adjusting policies that disproportionately affect minority students.

Overall, the data shows that black students of all ages are suspended and expelled at a rate that's three times higher than that of white children. Even as boys receive more than two-thirds of suspensions, black girls are suspended at higher rates than girls of any other race or most boys.



Read more: http://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2014/03/21/thousands-of-preschool-kids-face-suspension

[newfie11]

1. I thought we were over this

I guess it will never end! I hate this country! Btw I'm white.

[secondwind]

4. I'm with you. Very depressing. I'm a senior, and I hardly recognize this country anymore. :-(

[newfie11]

6. I'm a senior too

And remember well the late 50s and 60s. It is appalling to see this country going backwards.
I've lived all over this country, my kids played with other nationalities and thank God they did.
The most racists folks are ones that have no friends of different color/nationality. They have to try to feel superior somehow!


I am disgusted and ashamed of what we have become.

[awoke_in_2003]

27. No, racism just got more subtle...

that was, at least, until Obama was elected.

[madaboutharry]

2. What is wrong with us?

This is so depressing.

[hollysmom]

3. you can be white and still be discriminated against.

I remember in the 50's being in grammar school. There was a kid who was always acting out. we all knew he was beaten pretty bad by his father, but nothing ever seemed to be done. I guess as an 8 or 9 year old I had no idea what to do. I don't know how DYFUS worked them or if it even existed. But I can tell you the teachers all harassed him. I was like he was a trouble maker, lets drive him out of here.
In high school there was no question that you could not be black and treated well. I did finally speak up there once. I have no idea why the teacher who was so kind to me picked on the 2 black kids in the class. After class, I told her they are not the trouble makers in the class, I sat behind them and there just worked hard. She never picked on them in that class and never spoke to the boys I identified, but that was just in one class. Well, I told her who were the ones cheating and generally cutting up it was a couple of boys who sat next to me.

[M0rpheus]

17. It's not a question of whether white students can be discriminated against...

But your comment highlights the problem pretty well.

You have the troubled white student with a hard life who was picked on by staff because he acted out, in contrast to two black students who did what they were supposed to do and received similar results.

Not surprising in the least back in the 50's. Absolutely "frustrating" that some version of it is still happening today but, I'm still not surprised.

[elleng]

24. Right, its the distinction between 'discrimination'

and 'invidious discrimination.'

Definition
'Invidious discrimination involves formally or informally classifying people into different groups and according the members of each group distinct, and typically unequal, treatments, rights and obligations without a rational justification for the different treatment. If there is rational justification for the different treatment, then the discrimination is not invidious. The criteria delineating the groups, such as gender, race, or class, determine the kind of discrimination.'

Many of us aren't aware of the difference. People discriminate all the time, every day, like between places we'd like to visit, foods we prefer, classmates we prefer, schools we prefer, jobs we prefer, behaviors we don't like. Plain old 'discrimination' is a necessary part of everyday life, without which we could never make decisions.

[M0rpheus]

25. Welp, now I've learned a new term for the day. Thanks!

[elleng]

26. You're welcome, M0rpheus.

[awoke_in_2003]

33. Thanks for the new word. Nt

[elleng]

34. You're welcome, awoke.

Its a VERY important word and concept, and more people should be aware of it.

[marshall]

83. I think the issue is when students and teachers have no common ground

When the teachers are mostly white middle class, and their training is based on that social group's lifestyle, there will be clashes with students coming from other experiences.

When I was teaching I reflected on an instance when I went to see the movie The Color Purple at a theatre. I was one of very few white people in the audience. I noted that there was a lot of talking back to the movie. When Celie did something people called out something like "good for you" or "be careful." Not those phrases exactly, but something like that. Then I thought about times I attended African American churches. There was a similar calling out to the minister by the congregation during his sermon.

Both instances were nothing like my own cultural experience. Then as I was teaching and struggling to maintain discipline, I looked differently on those black students who seems to be disrupting my classroom order by speaking out in what I considered out of turn. I still wanted them to raise their hands or wait to speak until I called on them, but I didn't automatically assume their violation of this was some kind of affront to my authority.

That is just a small example of what I think is the main caus of the problem, a lack of shared cultural experience. And the drive to funnel all students into the same path.

[noiretextatique]

42. of course, your anecdote is as compelling as a scientific study

NOT . this is not about INDIVIDUALS, per your anecdote. this is about SYSTEMIC racism.

[hollysmom]

52. I realize there is rampant systematic racism and it is not right

I just meant there are some people that look wrong with work and dirty clothes - the "poor white trash" thingie. Of course it is not the same. I just meant that there always had to be someone on the bottom, This boy was disruptive by being loud with his voice, I wonder now if he had hearing problems. the local school had no blacks, there were not any Asians so who could they pick on. . Since that pretty segregated town in the 50's, has people of different religions and races and whatever. But back in grammar school, there had to be someone at the bottom.

[RC]

5. Everyone is entitled to Equal Rights, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference, skin color,

nationality, religion, or anything else others use to divide and categorize us to 'prove' some groups of us are better than others.

List of Human Rights
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/list-of-human-rights.html

[blackspade]

7. I'll put this in the 'no shit' file

Punishment in schools have always had a racial component.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

54. Yes

[BumRushDaShow]

8. This has been the case for decades and decades

and I doubt it will change. Maybe a century from now.

[mountain grammy]

9. Nothing surprises me anymore.

Judges getting kickbacks to send kids to private juvenal detention facilities at taxpayer's expense. Administrators calling the cops because a kid farts in class. I don't mean to diminish the struggles of people in third world countries where conditions are far worse, but we do seem to be headed in that direction.

Better late than never for the Administration, time to forcefully address the racism in public schools. Do I think Arne Duncan is up to the task? Sadly, no.

[AngryAmish]

10. Why do teachers and administrators discriminate against children of color?

Is it training? The kind of person who goes into teaching? Is it the culture of education?

[Shemp Howard]

18. You are mistaken.

As I mentioned in my post #16 below, I am a teacher with more than two decades of experience teaching in urban schools.

And I must tell you that I have seen very little teacher (or administrator) racism. Very little. Public school teachers, in general, see their profession as a real calling, an opportunity to help young people. And that is doubly true in urban schools, where the challenges are so much greater.

Yes, I've heard other teachers make veiled racist remarks. I'd say perhaps 5% of my fellow teachers have some racist feelings. I'm sorry if that number doesn't fit anyone's preconceived notions, but it is the truth as I see it.

For every one racist-leaning urban teacher, there are twenty who will stay after school - at no extra pay - to work with all of their kids, black and white.

Suspensions are a desperate short-term fix to attempt to keep order in a classroom. I have never once seen a suspension used as a racial club. I'm sure it happens, but I've never seen it.

So what's the long-term solution to this mess? I made some attempt to answer that in my post #16.

[noiretextatique]

43. how do you explain the results of the study?

I don't think the results of the study means that there are a few racist teachers. I believe it demonstrates the insidious, perhaps even unconscious, attitudes and beliefs about African-Americans that infect just about every institution in American society. Even African-Americans are immune to the disease.

[Shemp Howard]

57. I thought I did.

Blacks get suspended more than whites do. And that's because of economics.

I've had many, many black students from urban middle-class families in my classroom. By and large, they don't get suspended. And that's because they don't misbehave. And that's because they have the self-awareness and self-control necessary to succeed. They grew up in safe and stable environments.

We could attack a problem that no longer exists (institutional racism). Or we can attack a problem that does exist (the crushing poverty of many blacks).

[BumRushDaShow]

61. "We could attack a problem that no longer exists (institutional racism)"

Are you fucking kidding me? This right here invalidates everything you say if you are now asserting that "institutional racism" no longer exists.



Game. Set. Match.

[Shemp Howard]

65. well then

I never was one for debating via silly pictures, so I suppose this thread is closed.

[Supersedeas]

84. do you mean that you, as a teacher, don't solve every educational problem through

the dogma of institutional racism....how vile, shocking, it's criminal. //sarcasm alert.

For those who espouse engaging in civil discussion with cute pictures (lifted from someone else of course), what more do you expect that a knee jerk reaction motivated by the dogma de jure.

Frankly, I have a lot of respect for what you had to say, because of your first-hand experience, and because you had the courage to say it.

[alp227]

71. can you please provide evidence institutional racism is "a problem that no longer exists"?

other than your anecdote?

[Doctor_J]

74. I would tend to agree with shemp

This appears to be more of a socio-economic issue than racial. Of course the poverty is skewed racially, so...

[knitter4democracy]

39. There is some of that, yes.

I would have argued vociferously against a culture issue in education before teaching in my new district, but where I am now, an almost all-white district, has a definite race problem for those students and families we do have. The crap I've heard teachers say is stunning.

Some teachers and admins do crack down harder on students of color, and I think it's about perceptions and expectations. That white girl was just trying to communicate while that black girl was trying to start fight. That sort of thing.

[frazzled]

11. My city has already turned away from suspensions

over the past few years. They don't work, they're stupid, they just make failing or problematic kids more failing or problematic.

Please look at graph at link (not copy-able):

A revised Chicago Public Schools student code of conduct has led to a 36 percent drop in school suspensions over the past several school years, CPS officials said Friday.

“We know that suspensions cut into instructional time, and keep our students out of the classroom,” said CPS CEO Barbara Byrd-Bennett in a statement.

“The Student Code of Conduct that we implemented brought great results — a 36 percent decline in suspensions — and gave our students the support they needed while keeping them in school and learning.”

In 2012, CPS changed its student code of conduct to limit disciplinary actions that took kids out of the classroom. The new code of conduct encourages school staffers to develop alternative strategies and options for dealing with disciplinary issues, including conflict resolution techniques, anger coping therapy and intervention programs.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/25445568-418/36-percent-drop-in-school-suspensions-at-chicago-public-schools.html

[jsr]

12. This is a must read.

[heaven05]

14. surprised?

Not in the least. This is amerikkka after all.

[valerief]

15. And the classroom is supposed to be different than real life how?

No surprise.

[Shemp Howard]

16. Don't take the easy way out!

There is no doubt that blacks are suspended at a higher rate than whites. So what is to be done about this? There are three options.

1. Ignore it.
2. Put in place laws and regulations to punish schools with unbalanced suspensions. Maybe throw in a few feel-good mediation programs.

Option 1 would be the knee-jerk reaction of most on the right. Option 2 would be the knee-jerk reaction of most on the left. Both options are wrong!!!

Option 1 is to ignore the messenger. Option 2 is to kill the messenger.

Here's the third option. Get to the root of the problem. Yes, there is some racism involved here. But not nearly like it was years ago. And I say this as someone who has over two decades of experience teaching in urban schools.

The root problem is economics. Many urban white kids come from higher-income homes. They have support nets of a sort, some stability. But many urban blacks do not. They are adrift. The families have little money, and little hope.

There must be a nationwide push to get factories back to American cities! Urban families, black and white, need good jobs.

But that would upset the free-trade crowd. Even Obama won't call for a return of American industry.

So everyone will take the easy way out. Righties will choose Option 1. Lefties will choose Option 2. Nothing will change. The disadvantaged will remain adrift.

[BumRushDaShow]

22. Yet you just did

Prince George's County, MD has a number of black communities with some of highest per capita incomes in the nation, yet Prince George's County schools also had some of the highest rates of suspensions in MD.

http://www.acy.org/upimages/Suspensions_Spike.pdf

Which makes your argument bullshit.

The white child who engages in a lunchroom food fight or throws toilet paper all over the playground is "admonished" for his "mischievous pranks" while the black child who might talk back to a teacher is summarily suspended or handcuffed and hauled off to jail.

Thankfully the policy is being addressed -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/prince-georges-outlines-new-disciplinary-policy-in-student-handbook/2013/09/18/d7e0221a-1fe3-11e3-94a2-6c66b668ea55_story.html

[kwassa]

32. PG County also has very poor areas close into the DC line

With many of the same social issues that poor areas of DC have. Much of the behavior problems are from these areas.

It does not make the argument bullshit

[Shemp Howard]

36. Uh, no.

You talk about lunchroom fights, talking back to a teacher, whatever.

I've lived all that, daily. As I mentioned earlier, I have more than 20 years of experience teaching in urban schools. And that was by choice. I thought I could make more of a difference there, and I believe that I do.

I've seen very little racial discrimination when it comes to suspensions. A kid that disrupts a class gets suspended. Period. Consider this. Way more males get suspended than do females. Does that imply that schools are prejudiced against males? I think not. Something else is going on there.

When it comes to white vs. black, it's economics. In schools I've taught in, it's the poorer kids (white and black) who show up on the suspension rolls the most. Why? Because they disrupt the classes the most. To borrow a phrase from Al Gore, it's an inconvenient truth.

So let's not deny the problem. Let's honestly fix the problem.

You can post all the links you want. These links all lead to "experts" who have never taught a day in an urban school. Or if they did teach a day, they took the first opportunity to get out and become a consultant or educational researcher. They read charts. They don't actually work with urban kids.

I'm no expert on international politics or the price of coffee. But I do know the urban school environment. I know what's true and what's not.

[Ka hrnt]

41. I agree 100%, though it's not just urban schools.

It is almost certainly an economic problem (for the most part), not a racism one. Education is a field that is dominated by left-leaning individuals--hardly the type you'd peg for racists. I work in a poorer area, but I wouldn't call it "urban" by any means. Outside of my honors classes, my white students are the (very small) minority. I look across the hall at a co-worker's AICE (or my former IB) class and the classroom is almost entirely white students. It's not racism, it's not ability--it's attitude/culture. For whatever reasonS, far more of my black students don't give a hoot about their education. They are generally my worst-behaved students--loud, disruptive, and disrespectful to myself and their classmates. (Again, generally--one of my best students this year is a quiet, polite black student. I'm aware I'm painting with a wide brush here.)

My theory is that it comes down to socioeconomic (SES) factors. Poorer kids (which most of mine are) likely don't have well-educated parents. (Many of my students' parents are first-generation Americans too, so there's likely been a language gap.) So I imagine they have no sense for what an education can do for them, no "educational role models" if you will. (Or perhaps worse, their parents are well-educated and still poor--thus really making education appear "useless.&quot And by the time they reach the last half of their high-school career, the years of apathy and poor grades are catching up to them; many kids (of every ethnicity) simply lack the more basic skills necessary to pass upper-school classes.

But that's just my two cents. A related (to SES) study from UF: To Predict Student Success, There's No Place Like Home:

Current school reform efforts, like No Child Left Behind, emphasize teacher quality as the most important factor in student success, but University of Florida researchers have identified another, stunningly accurate predictor of classroom performance — the student’s home address.

Right down to the neighborhood and street number.

[jaysunb]

80. +1 n/t

[BumRushDaShow]

59. I taught in urban schools 30 years ago

in the mid-80s, when the city was divided into various "Districts" run by superintendents, notably in what was once called "District 5" comprising one of the poorest areas of Philadelphia. So sorry to burst your bubble, but your experience doesn't somehow trump anyone else's. It boggles the mind the arrogance of your assertions.

The problem that you and many others ignore that *I* saw during my early years teaching (before leaving) was that those who wielded the "power" - notably the school Department heads (and most particularly here in Philly, the Vice Principals who spoke for the school Principals) - these folks were the "deciders" and THAT is where the racism occurred.

I am not arguing the fault of disruptive students but am taking issue at the continual denial that the statistics keep showing. These stats mirror adult society in terms of the criminal justice system and the unequal meting out of punishment. The kids who I taught Biology (and later Computer Science) to were coming from some rough backgrounds - and I had full rosters of 125 kids or more for 5 periods... But one could see that kids were kids and when engaged and they see that someone cares, any anti-social behavior tends to be reduced or even ceases. You have reduced absenteeism and cutting. In fact I had kids cutting other classes to sit in my classes (which I had to try to keep them from doing).

The issue needs to cut across all the layers of management of the schools and fortunately some places are starting to "get it".

So keep that head in the sand, why don't you? Ignorance is bliss.

[Shemp Howard]

66. My long-winded response

Last edited Sat Mar 22, 2014, 12:24 PM - Edit history (2)

To your first point, I was not teaching 30 years ago, so I cannot comment on those times. I will defer to you on that. But I would gently suggest that my current urban experience carries more weight than your decades-old rememberances. Things have changed. Frank Rizzo no longer calls the shots in Philadelphia.

As to my "arrogance", I will plead guilty as charged, or maybe I'll just plead no contest. As you know, teaching is a calling. And I get very frustrated and angry when I see the education of kids ruined. So I will state my case forcefully. If that comes off as arrogance, so be it.

To your second point, about the vice-principals and such, you have a point. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I estimate that 5% of my fellow teachers have racist views. I suppose it's roughly the same with administrators. So let's aggressively weed those people out. But it is an error (and almost insulting) to go on a institutional-wide racist witch hunt.

Heck, for most of my career my school principals were black. And many of the vice-principals were black. In my district, they are the only ones that can suspend. They are not stupid people. And I cannot believe they are somehow racist.

Here's something else to consider. In my urban district most teachers, our union, and the superintendent are progressive. I'll bet the vote was 80% for Obama in 2012. Our union overwhelmingly endorsed him. It is a real stretch to see institutional racism here.

To your third point, here we almost entirely agree. But I do take exception to your "someone cares" comment. I know you don't mean it, but that sounds like you're blaming teachers for the problems. Most teachers in my school stay after school to tutor, for free. Others organize clubs and run extra activities. They care, a lot.

But here's the problem. It's something you touched on when you discussed your computer science class. Kids will do better when there is something in the school that connects with them. That basic truth is all but ignored in my district.

We force kids into classes they don't want, for reasons of scheduling convenience. A kid might want to take computer science, but instead gets thrown into a French 1 class. That's crazy, and it would NEVER happen at a private school.

And we force kids to take advanced algebra when they are more interested in learning a trade. But our district has eliminated all the carpentry and plumbing classes. Again, crazy. And almost criminally stupid.

[BumRushDaShow]

67. "institutional-wide racist witch hunt"

It would be interesting to see what you think "institutional racism" is because if you do not think it means that there are often those "in power" or who have "the power" in an "institution" (business, school, organization) - i.e., the department heads, Vice Principals, Principals and District management ("Superintendents" or other higher level cluster/regional hierarchical heads), who have exerted that power to discriminate, doing so selectively based on race or ethnic group, then I can see why you dismiss it outright.

And as a FYI - Frank Rizzo was not the mayor in the '80s and there was certainly no need for that high level of interference when you have schools doing it themselves, on their own, just fine.

The fact that there was a certain high % of vote for Obama is completely irrelevant. Again, those voters (whether they worked for the school system or not) don't necessarily have the "power" to impact (whether positively or negatively) what happens in a school when it comes to discipline meted out on the spot. The school systems most impacted are in the stats and unfortunately, due to the same institutional racism, getting those higher level administrative jobs was difficult for black teachers mainly because of trying to wait out the seniority requirements during a time when the discrimination had been most virulent for school postings.

The key being that no where in my comments have I said "all". Every system is different. However your view has been that "institutional racism" has been eliminated and that argument is about as invalid as that from those who argue that America is "post-racial".

With respect to "meaning it" regarding my comment about "caring", I meant exactly what I said. Before getting a long term assignment, I was subbing and I *saw* the lack of care from teachers - most notably in the classrooms of the hardest of ages to "control", which was Junior High (7th/8th grade). The classrooms were all well-equipped (at least from the science perspective - with astonishing amounts of kits that were to be used for various experiments). Yet these were completely untouched sitting dusty in locked cabinets. Plant shelves with grow lights hosted no plants or dead plants. Fish tanks were left filthy with dead fish. In one particular class, I was able to get all of the children involved to clear away all the disorder and decay and and start fresh, and they finally felt engaged because someone gave a damn.

Children often need to learn the limits of their ability to challenge authority and there are teachers who are so out-of-touch culturally with respect to how to even talk to a child beyond repeating nonsensical 60-year old terms such as "Hey, you just tellin' me jive" and other idiotic lingo, that one can see why there is a disconnect. The "Now now Johnny, you must sit down at your desk" is not going to work with a certain subset of children. And when these teachers couldn't deal with it, they made sure that the children were drugged up with Ritalin with the overused text-book psychology diagnosis of "ADHD", so the children would finally "sit quietly at their desk" with hands folded.

This nation still has a long way to go to address the cultural disjointedness in education - and most notably, public education. And I certainly don't believe that shunting everyone into charter schools will magically solve anything.

IMHO, the problem is in the education of the teachers and the shift towards making education a "business", where a half-century's worth of continual experimentation and chasing unrealistic goals in urban environments continues to fail year after year, decade after decade. E.g., the obsession over teaching "complex thinking" when the child hasn't even mastered the basics.

[noiretextatique]

44. blacks loot, white find

same concept.

[BumRushDaShow]

60. Bingo!

Lots of code words.

[DesertRat]

19. Outrageous! nt

[Android3.14]

20. Do teachers ignore misbehaving white kids?

Probably not.
Kids of financially struggling families tend to act out more than others, and that struggling families tend to be black.
This trend to blame the teachers is disturbing.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. Suspension is an administrative issue.

Last edited Fri Mar 21, 2014, 11:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Teachers may recommend suspension but the administration has to back them up. The evidence shows that suspensions are one indicator that the student is at risk of failure to complete high school, so perhaps what's wrong here is that suspension is an ineffective tool and educators need to employ other (hopefully better) tools to address behaviors that result in suspension.

Of course, we'd have to invest more in public education for that to happen.


And FWIW, when I was in school no elementary level kids were EVER suspended, never mind pre-schoolers.

[noiretextatique]

45. racism is pervasive in American society

education is not exempt.

[Starry Messenger]

48. My biggest discipline problems are usually all middle-class white kids

When I report them, they get a slap on the wrist. Yet every week the suspension list would have lots of Latino and African-American kids on there.

It isn't that the kids are acting differently based on race--it's that the minority kids are getting tougher consequences for the same behaviors.

Thankfully schools (including mine) are working to reduce the suspension rates. But if white kids had been getting suspended at the rates their behavior warranted, these numbers wouldn't have been so uneven, imo.

[Ka hrnt]

51. Their familes probably can't afford lawyers either...

Which could very well play a role in the punishment they are given. (Why risk suspending someone if it may cost the school district tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees?) The ideal data--as I believe someone else mentioned--would be to have a comparison of the consequences by offense, then broken down by racial and socioeconomic factors.

[cpwm17]

21. I grew up and went to school in a mixed-race neighborhood in the 1970's

and among the various races, the black male students caused more trouble than every other race. It was obvious. Many of them seemed to disappear before high school. I assumed at the time that many of them dropped out.

It is unfair to blame the schools.

[BumRushDaShow]

23. I grew up in a mixed-race neighborhhood in the 1970s

that also boasted mixed religious & interracial marriages, and yes , even LGBT couples, because there were only 2 places they were allowed to live back then... and I saw the complete opposite. Mainly because the parents of the black children were professionals with secondary and post grad degrees... while many of the whites were working class.

The white boys routinely drove drunk through the streets yelling profanities, egging cars, and slashing tires. College was not needed because as it is today, back then, the average white high school graduate made more than the average black college graduate. The black families had been of course redlined and were not permitted in the higher income suburban communities and were often forced to put their children in the Friends (Quaker) schools in our urban "liberal" neighborhood.

[cpwm17]

29. Perhaps Southern California (San Diego near the border) where I grew up was different than elsewhere

I lived in an area dominated by boring tract-housing, so there wasn't any real economic divide between the students. The white students in the area grew up in families that were at least tolerant of living around minorities and also being a minority in the school like everybody else, or the families may have chosen to live somewhere else if they could.

I wasn't aware of any students abusing alcohol at the time, but I wouldn't have hung around that type of person if they existed. Perhaps there is plenty to do in San Diego so the students were less likely to engage in that kind of rowdy behavior.

[kwassa]

37. This answer doesn't make any sense.

I can't even figure out what you are trying to say here.

[LeftyMom]

28. What. The. Actual. Fuck.

[cpwm17]

31. Don't shoot the messenger n/t

[LeftyMom]

35. The messenger is fucking racist.

[Starry Messenger]

49. wtf.

[pnwmom]

38. Children who are living in families that are barely getting by,

with parents who are completely stressed out; and children who don't get enough nutrition outside of school, and children who are exposed to lead paint, moldy apartments, and other toxins might show effects in their behavior.

We know that there are a disproportionate number of black children living in poverty. What are we doing about that? Suppose more of them are acting out in school -- wouldn't that be understandable? Shouldn't we work on the root of the problem?

[Shemp Howard]

40. You are seeing things very clearly.

"Suppose more of them are acting out in school -- wouldn't that be understandable? Shouldn't we work on the root of the problem?"

That's exactly what I was trying to say in my post #16!

A friend of mine is a counselor at an urban school. I worked at the same school for a long time. The poverty level is high. She told me that when she first started, she was discouraged by how poorly the students behaved. Attendance was particularly bad. Missing one or two days a week was normal.

Now she is amazed at how well most of the students do, under the circumstances.

No, the students didn't change. What changed was her understanding of the poverty of the area.

That's not to excuse misbehavior. Schools must be orderly for anyone to learn. But the root cause is poverty, not racism. It is worth noting that four of our last five Superintendents were black. And yet the suspensions continued. Because the effects of the poverty continued.

[noiretextatique]

46. some black people are actually middle class

some are even wealthy. given that reality, how do you explain the results of the study?

[Ka hrnt]

50. There's no arguing with words like "some"...

or "many." But that doesn't change the fact that, a "disproportionate number of black children [are] living in poverty." In fact, it's a nearly 3:1 (28% to 10%) ratio of blacks to whites living below the poverty line. If they had the same rates, you'd expect the black students to only represent ~18% of the suspensions. But if SES is a (very) strong correlation to behavior, you could feasibly expect 2.8x that amount (50.4%); that would land you in the general vicinity of "nearly half" as the study reports. I don't doubt racism is playing a role, but I think (as do a few others in this thread) it's far more related to SES factors.

My logic (which admittedly is resting on a lot of assumptions.):

100 randomly distributed students
Let's say there are 10 suspended. That means 2 (18% rounded to the nearest person) should be expected to be black. But if the rate were 2.8 times higher, you would expect 5 (50.4% rounded down to the nearest person) of the 10 to be black. Which is disturbingly close to what the study found.

[Shemp Howard]

56. Good post, very reasoned and well-presented. nt

nt

[Ka hrnt]

64. Thank you.

nt

[noiretextatique]

58. way to miss the point

if the phenomenon of disproportionate suspension is consistent across socio-economic status, that means race IS a factor, per the conclusion of the study. i don't claim it is the only factor.

[BumRushDaShow]

62. Bingo!

And because of the cultural conditioning, the assumption is that when the disproportionate meting out of punishment is looked at by the deniers, they assume that poor black children are somehow more disruptive than white children when the reality is that they are not. But the black children suffer from the stigma of a suspension where the white child is given a reprieve (and a cleaner record), and thus does not become a "statistic". This leads to the false (cultural) conclusion that they are somehow more orderly when in fact, they did not receive the same punishment.

[pnwmom]

53. Who said there weren't? But there is a disproportionate number living in poverty.

They should look at the statistics to control for the effects of poverty.

That would give us better information. But since we know more black children are living in the most stressful and unhealthy circumstances, we should expect to see some effects in the children.

One thing that the schools can and should do is make sure that poorer students aren't also deprived in schools -- deprived of the best teachers.

[noiretextatique]

47. racism deniers are like climate change deniers

the constant denial of racism is just as ridiculous as denying global warming.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

55. Does this mean

that school districts with white administrations suspend more black students?

I teach in an all black school and we don't do many suspensions.

[Ka hrnt]

69. The data are now available on-line...

Here.

[MellowDem]

70. And what are the rates for Asians?

The main problem, by far, isn't racism or racial discrimination. These numbers reflect racial disparities in income, wealth, poverty and opportunity IMHO. Racism could end tomorrow, and these racial disparities would remain as long as our economic system continues to provide lots of opportunities to those who are the most well off while providing nothing to little to everyone else.

I think racism, as an ideology, has very few followers in the US anymore. Racial bigotry, on the other hand, is rampant, and it's cause is continued racial segregation and disparities. Where there is less segregation and racial disparity, there is less racial bigotry. When people don't see much of the "other" and when there are real inequalities between groups, it is a great recipe for bigotry of all types.

You can see it in other countries than the US with no history of racism.

[alp227]

72. I would say really really low,

even though an Asian friend of mine in HS got suspended simply for refusing to take off a beanie. But given that Asian-American students have the highest academic achievement in US schools I would guess suspension rates would negatively correlate. I'm sure Asian-American students do act up...and I definitely know that from personal experience, heh heh...but I can't imagine my teachers putting up with my antics if I were Latino for instance.

[JI7]

73. blacks face racism that asians don't . the relationship between blacks and whites

has a history with racism.

all groups don't face the same type of racism/discrimination.

[NoodleyAppendage]

75. Uh, no. Just being black doesn't give you special status among minorities.

Ever heard of the US Japanese internment camps during WWII? How about how the Chinese "coolies" were treated during the late 19th century. Sorry, minorities have been put upon regardless of the type.

J

[JI7]

82. i didn't say anything about special status, i'm saying the discrimination is not always the same

for example asians are not likely to get stopped for driving in certain neighborhoods because of their race even if they are a minority.

that doesn't mean they don't face any discrimination or that it's worse/better than what others face.

[RandySF]

78. Native Americans had it easy?

[NoodleyAppendage]

79. Exactly. If anything one could argue that the minorities with the largest representation...

…may be better off than those who are even more marginalized by virtue of the sheer paucity of their numbers in the general population.

J

[JI7]

81. no, i'm saying the type of discrimination is not always the same among groups

[RandySF]

76. As a parent whose kid was bullied all through kindergarten I don't know what to say.

What I can say is that he was hit terrorized by the same three kids beginning on the first week of class right up to the final week. The kids were NOT suspended at first, but nothing worked. The principal gave them all kids of chances until one eventually decided to punch my son in the face. And since the district had no interest in what was going on, that was the end of our public school experiment.

[madville]

77. Many parallels in adulthood as well

Here in Florida the black prison population is around 48% of total inmates, but they only account for 18% of the total population.

My county shows a similar trend in statistics as well with the black population making up 40% of the county but accounting for around 70% of the bookings at the county jail.

Several factors lead to this, I think primarily the poverty the black communities here typically experience along with the extra attention they draw from law enforcement. In my county most of the whites live out in the country in rural areas, most of the blacks live in the city limits with more law enforcement presence. You rarely see a deputy out here in the rural areas but town is crawling with the city police focusing their attention on poor areas.