Targeting Huawei: NSA Spied on Chinese Government and Networking Firm
Source: Der Spiegel
The American government conducted a major intelligence offensive against China, with targets including the Chinese government and networking company Huawei, according to documents from former NSA worker Edward Snowden that have been viewed by SPIEGEL. Among the American intelligence service's targets were former Chinese President Hu Jintao, the Chinese Trade Ministry, banks, as well as telecommunications companies.
But the NSA made a special effort to target Huawei. With 150,000 employees and 28 billion ($38.6 billion) in annual revenues, the company is the world's second largest network equipment supplier. At the beginning of 2009, the NSA began an extensive operation, referred to internally as "Shotgiant," against the company, which is considered a major competitor to US-based Cisco. The company produces smartphones and tablets, but also mobile phone infrastructure, WLAN routers and fiber optic cable -- the kind of technology that is decisive in the NSA's battle for data supremacy.
A special unit with the US intelligence agency succeeded in infiltrating Huwaei's network and copied a list of 1,400 customers as well as internal documents providing training to engineers on the use of Huwaei products, among other things.
... "We currently have good access and so much data that we don't know what to do with it," states one internal document. As justification for targeting the company, an NSA document claims that "many of our targets communicate over Huawei produced products, we want to make sure that we know how to exploit these products."
Read more: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nsa-spied-on-chinese-government-and-networking-firm-huawei-a-960199.html
N.S.A. Breached Chinese Servers Seen as Security Threat
Source: New York Times
... Washingtons concerns about Huawei date back nearly a decade, since the RAND Corporation, the research organization, evaluated the potential threat of China for the American military. RAND concluded that private Chinese companies such as Huawei were part of a new digital triangle of companies, institutes and government agencies that worked together secretly.
... The man behind its strategy is Ren Zhengfei, the companys elusive founder, who was a P.L.A. engineer in the 1970s. To the Chinese, he is something akin to Steve Jobs an entrepreneur who started a digital empire with little more than $3,000 in the mid-1980s, and took on both state-owned companies and foreign competitors. But to American officials, he is a link to the Peoples Liberation Army.
... As long ago as 2007, the N.S.A. began a covert program against Huawei, the documents show. By 2010, the agencys Tailored Access Operations unit which breaks into hard-to-access networks found a way into Huaweis headquarters. The agency collected Mr. Rens communications, one document noted, though analysts feared they might be missing many of them.
... The N.S.A.s operations against China do not stop at Huawei. Last year, the agency cracked two of Chinas biggest cellphone networks, allowing it to track strategically important Chinese military units, according to an April 2013 document leaked by Mr. Snowden. Other major targets, the document said, are the locations where the Chinese leadership works. The countrys leaders, like everyone else, are constantly upgrading to better, faster Wi-Fi and the N.S.A. is constantly finding new ways in.
Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-chinese-servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html
cstanleytech
(26,276 posts)intelligence on a foreign government is ok now that Snowden is the one doing it?
I mean ok revealing that there is a database of phone records being kept by the NSA I can understand but at what point does it go to far?
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)At the traitor Snowden. This will damage our national security. We are supposed to be spying on the Chinese. Now they know what we can and can't do. Maybe he's damaging America as a favor to Putin.
I'm glad Snowden revealed how our phone calls are monitored but he has turned traitor since then.
I also question why the New York Times published this. Perhaps because it was already published elsewhere.
dotymed
(5,610 posts)It doesn't matter that "our" government IS creating another cold war and that they spy on our "most favored nation trading status" country where they encourage the elites to enslave their populace so their (our corporate) profit margin is unbelievable and send our manufacturing jobs there while our working class is almost gone unless you will work part-time, for peanuts and no Union.
Shoot the messenger, he did it....ridiculous.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)... You know that the NSA exists to do foreign spying, right? That's what it's there for. It is absolutely traitorous to reveal perfectly legitimate foreign intelligence operations.
RC
(25,592 posts)What the hell is wrong with us that we feel that we must treat every one else as adversaries?
Actually, why does the NSA feel they are entitled to treat everyone, including American citizens, as adversaries? Where are the terrorists they are supposed to be monitoring? Have they ever caught any from their spying?
People need to stop assuming the NSA is doing the job they are supposed to be doing, when it is so obvious that they clearly are not.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)opening the doors for Chinese spies. While the NSA shouldn't be spying on US citizens, it's hardly fair to criticize them for spying on foreign operators. Unless you believe it's only the US/NSA that is doing so, and that China/Russia/Whoever are just reacting to US spy games.
creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)because they are adversaries.
The NSA feels entitled to treat the Chinese like adversaries because that the kind of thing they were created to do.
We've caught lots of terrorists.
The NSA was doing its job. This latest revelation shows they were doing very well at penetrating Chinese IT.
RC
(25,592 posts)creeksneakers2
(7,473 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Chinese trade
baldguy
(36,649 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Have you ever heard of the neo-cons and their Pearl Harbor and the run up to Iraq? We make our own enemies. This is no different. Paranoia for Profit.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)spy agencies to to gain information? Would they stop if the US stopped? Do you think it's acceptable for other countries to do it, but not the US?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Proof enough that there are people in the world that only wish harm to America. Unfortunately, there are some who refuse to accept that and will criticize any attempt to prevent it.
MADem
(135,425 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)Right? Right? She maybe has a phone, computer, whatever electronic device made in China? Then the NSA gotta spy on her because she might be a Chinese spy herself?
There are much better ways to deal with situations like that, than spying on everyone and their pets and gathering so much data, you don't have the resources to deal with it. Important information gets lost and buried in the shear mass of mostly worthless data.
Why not keep the spying to the Chinese, rather than the NSA paying American companies to spy on their customers, world wide, including inside the US.
No matter how you slice and dice it, the NSA is a rogue , out of control agency, that needs to be reigned in. They and their sister agencies make, or even just designate enemies, as an excuse to spy on them because they are "our enemies".
Who doesn't the NSA spy on? That should tell you something right there. And their secret kangaroo courts, with their automatic rubber stamping doesn't not make it Constitutional either. That is only a fig leaf to hide the tools they are using to screw us all.
The world is not our enemy. We need to stop treating it as such. We need to deal with our own unwarranted paranoia for profit and work to help others, instead of using the problems we create, as an excuse to be suspicious of others motives.
MADem
(135,425 posts)And that's why they engage in the same kind of shenanigans that every other nation engages in. It's all part of the game:
Really--the naive outrage is astounding--of course everyone is spying on each other. As that French government official revealed, the only thing that is surprising is that there are people who are actually surprised at this.
Back in the old days, before wiretapping, we used HUMINT. We had people who listened in, who broke into places and stole documents, who used their wiles, personality and more to obtain information, who later, photographed documents and put them on a microfilm, a microDOT, even. This is just an extension of that, and like it or not, it's not going away.
They may--or may not--be able to "place limits" on it, but the only way to categorically assure you are not being tapped on your phone is the same way that you could assure you were not being tapped a hundred years ago--stay off the phone. LIMIT your exposure.
That might be unsatisfactory to some, but that is the simple truth. Shooting the messenger, calling me an "apologist" or other invective, will not change that basic fact. And, mark my words, our intel services may be forced, by outraged "How DARE you!" demands from the citizenry, and ratchet back THEIR domestic surveillance, but those demands will fall on deaf ears beyond our shores. The only thing that will change is WHO is listening to you.
And what will eventually happen is what always happens when there's something we cannot or will not do, for political/ethical reasons--we'll contract it out. Just like Europe has been doing, for YEARS. France already spies for Germany, Germany spies for France, and everyone shares with the Brits. There will just be more "musical chairs" to get around national laws, and the game will play on.
Again, shooting the messenger will not change this, but take your shots, call me names, get your poutrage on, if it makes you feel better.
The NSA is no more of a rogue than every single one of the European security services, most of the South American ones, the Russians, or PLA Unit 61398--what those guys in China do do makes USA look like Goody Two Shoes. And if you think that Edward Snowden has "freedom" from all manner of surveillance in his little Russian hideaway, then Chris Christie has a bridge he will sell you at a very deep discount.
The only thing that has changed--or will change--about this game is that the world is slightly less naive.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Which is why at least FIVE(!) countries were listening in:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/26/merkel_phone_tapped_by_5_countries/
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/merkels-phone-tapped-by-at-least-5-countries-2013-11-24
Of course only for the USA was the faux outrage dial turned up to 11....
And in a laughably under-reported story a few weeks later, Merkel joined the 21st century and got a secure phone...All of a sudden all the eavesdropping ended...
RC
(25,592 posts)The real outrage, where people actually know more about what is going on, was world wide.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 24, 2014, 01:27 PM - Edit history (1)
Exactly which universe do you live in??
You know the concept of secure phone lines is more than 50 years old, right?
And just to mention *your* missed point -- In case you forgot, the only stated reason Snowden started this whole charade was to "expose wrongdoing against U.S. civilians"....I fail to see how this story advances that goal....
penultimate
(1,110 posts)that he thinks the US is the only country that spies, or at least is the only country that shouldn't be allowed to spy. I asked if he thought other countries spied, and if it is okay for them to do so, but he never replied.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)of successful operations, bad guys being nabbed, etc. etc...
I'm also pretty sure that Greenwald will make sure that those stories never see the light of day, since they don't jibe with his agenda (which is why I've long maintained that his brand of 'adversarial reporting' is pure bullshit)....
RC
(25,592 posts)If there were actually proof of 'successful operations', you can be sure the NSA itself would be using them in its propaganda defending itself in what it is doing. Those 'successful operations' are conspicuously missing, even when the NSA is called on it. They managed to come up with one. Just one. Surely they could do better than that, with all the data they have collected on most everyone.
Do all those 'successful operations' have to be kept secret for national security reasons? Somehow that is supposed to make sense? ehh, not for those of us that do not support the NSA's out of control, unethical, unconstitutional, illegal, amoral, paranoid based, wholesale spying, both here and around the world on our friends and adversaries alike.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)For a multitude of reasons, even big successes must be kept classified from time to time...
And for the record, Greenwald does have a documented track record of conveniently forgetting or straight-up ignoring facts which contradict the story he's trying to sell us...
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)What are friends for, if you don't trust them. Do you spy on your friends? Why or why not?
Cha
(297,042 posts)he doesn't have any "worshippers".. ROFL
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)He really does not want to be able to return to the US.
Historic NY
(37,449 posts)from the Pentagon to big business. THE NSA should be jambing them and killing them at their computers terminals.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)And Michelle made some "free speech" comments in her presentation, there, too.
Can't have that as the "lede!" Eddie's gotta bigfoot on anything POTUS or his crew does!
If they visit Aruba there'll be some Ooooh-La-La revelation about our conduct with them, too.
Eddie's either working for the Paul organization, the Putin organization, or the CIA. If not one of those, he's just an attention seeker.
Rumold
(69 posts){Quote} Edward Snowden has not leaked a single document to any journalist since he left Hong Kong in June: 9 months ago. Back then, he provided a set of documents to several journalists and asked that we make careful judgments about what should and should not be published based on several criteria. He has played no role since then in deciding which documents are or are not reported. Those decisions are made entirely by media outlets that are in possession of those documents. Thus, calling a new NSA story Snowdens latest leak or asking why would Snowden decide to publish this now? as though hes doling out documents one by one or deciding which documents should be published is misleading in the extreme: those decisions are made exclusively by the journalists and editors of those news outlets. {/Quote}
"misleading in the extreme" --- that would be your post
MADem
(135,425 posts)You're acting as if only Chance was written down in the record book after Tinkers to Evers to Chance you know. That's not how it works. He handed off those documents with not just the anticipation, but the expectation that they would be disseminated. He's an accessory. He provided the stolen materials.
He can repeat his little talking point and try to sell that story you're touting, but he can't get away with a Two Degrees of Edward Snowden game. And neither can you!
Rumold
(69 posts)he gave the documents to journalists, they are publishing their stories.
thats pretty clear.
in your fantasy world, snowden is running the New York Times, Der Spiegel, The Guardian, and i guess every other publication on the planet.
you should probably stick with baseball
MADem
(135,425 posts)He can't get those "documents" back.
According to HIM, the horse has left the barn. So...what's the point in bringing him home? To "warn" us? Fuck that. We can easily figure out what he had access to, and we can assume the worst, and we can plan for it.
He's in the prison of his own making. Unless, of course, he's on our team and playing a rather bold game. Now THAT would piss off his champions!
I think you are the one who might want to limit your exposure and perhaps stick with tiddly winks. You just don't get it, clearly. Snowden's not "running" any media outlets. He doesn't "own" any media outlets.
He gave it all away.
Supposedly.
And "supposedly" he has no control over the dissemination of this material.
So why do we need him back?
Let him rot. Unfortunate fellah. He's Russian mold now, poor lad...
Maybe he can start a new life in Mold-ovia!
Rumold
(69 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Poor you.
Response to MADem (Reply #50)
Post removed
MADem
(135,425 posts)Well, he's definitely in violation of US law and will never come home if you're correct on that score.
I think the one "puking into word salad" ain't me, here.
And the "check your meds" comment was just flat out rude to DUers who have mental illness--but that's what people who aren't progressive do; they use "mental illness" or "you throw like a girl" or "you're gay" insults to try to shut people up.
Very nasty stuff you're shopping.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Oh yes, he did. He is responsible for whatever gets released from them.
If you give matches to a kid and tell them to make a judgment about when to use them, who'd responsible when they burn the building down?
pragmatic_dem
(410 posts)that's they way you really are.
MADem
(135,425 posts)pragmatic_dem
(410 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Newsjock
(11,733 posts)There, got that out of the way. Carry on.
Ex Lurker
(3,812 posts)This is what the NSA should be doing instead of dragnetting every cell phone account in America.
cstanleytech
(26,276 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)He's basically firing up the Cold War on steroids. From the NYT piece:
China does more in terms of cyberespionage than all other countries put together, said James A. Lewis, a computer security expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.
The question is no longer which industries China is hacking into, he added. Its which industries they arent hacking into.
Now I'm really wondering to whom he reports...!
Cha
(297,042 posts)on China(good) while Leaking from Russia..
So, they're releasing this now while the First Lady, Malia, Sasha, and her mother, Marion Robinson, are visiting China on a good will trip?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Which isn't the trademark of a whistleblower; it's the trademark of an extortionist....
Cha
(297,042 posts)take Sherlock Holmes to figure it out.. not that we're not.
Snowden's a fucking shit-stirrer for Russia.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Be done with this drama.
That is what he wants and unless he is given immunity, such leaks will continue to the point of making the NSA impotent because all their games would be known by adversaries and vulnerabilities patched up/encrypted etc.
vdogg
(1,384 posts)Negotiating with a terrorist. We should never give in to his demands. The condition is stop leaking and then we'll talk, not the other way around. Anything else just sets a bad precedent.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)He is out there, safe with his stash of explosive revelations neatly protected.
Either we give him immunity and bring him home or this will continue.
Holding firm will feel good but at what cost?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Let's see the rest of his cards. Put it all out in the open.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)and the NSA would be a joke by then.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)It's about time it was gotten rid of.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Just upthread, I'm being told that Snowden isn't doing the leaking!!!
That he doesn't have "control" of those documents anymore!!!!
He can't "stop" the leaking, even if he wanted to!!!!!
So why bring him home? What difference will it make? Leave him in his Russian prison, in a land where he can really enjoy the Russian definition of "freedom."
People are already "ho-humming" over this stuff. Why? Because everytime Snowden's li'l buddies leak something, we learn something very similar about the targets of the NSA's investigation. We're spying on our allies? They are spying on us, AND each other--and SHARING their data! Ooooh, we're spying on poor widdle China? They're probably already IN your computer, to say nothing of half the platforms in the frigging Pentagon.
No one--and I mean no one--does more computer hacking/spying/intruding than the Chinese. They make us look like total pikers.
Now more people will realize it.
Eddie--unintentionally or otherwise, aware or not--has finally done the NSA a solid. This lastest "leak" --aimed at Obama in an effort to embarrass the nation as his wife and children are on a goodwill tour -- has had the opposite effect and has benefitted their battered reputation.
Ain't that peculiar?
Now, the question is this--was that serendipity, an accident, a tactical mistake ... or part of a strategic roll-out?
fujiyama
(15,185 posts)especially those I felt were apologists for the NSA, but c'mon, this is the kind of thing the NSA was formed for - to gather foreign intel.
Just end this. The DOJ could grant Snowden immunity, we could prosecute those that created the apparatus to go beyond the international, and make intel smarter and more effective.
But I guess it's easier and much less work to just collect every American's private info...
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)he doesn't have "control" over all those documents anymore.
Bringing him home will NOT end this--at least that's what "Team Ed" is insisting.
So he can just sit where he's at -- it'll make no damn difference.
pragmatic_dem
(410 posts)all granted amnesty under the govts various too-big-to-jail protection programs.
Just don't get caught smoking a joint or downloading too many documents at once from MIT.
Holder and DOJ are all over your ass.
BenzoDia
(1,010 posts)pragmatic_dem
(410 posts)to China for pennies on the dollar. They've put our resources to good work over last 30 years.
Nothing brings the capitalist and the communist closer together than unlimited access to cheap, unregulated labor markets.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)Amateur Hour!!
FSogol
(45,468 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)successful operation against a legitimate foreign target?? (and this isn't the first time they've done this, either...)
WHO on Earth could possibly benefit from this story OTHER than the Chinese Government?
So after all the snark and insults and people putting me on ignore, is anyone else finally starting to open their eyes and have doubt on SnowWald's true motivations?
randome
(34,845 posts)The President arrives in the Netherlands today. How much does anyone want to bet that a classified document about the Netherlands is released today or tomorrow?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)since Obama had a scheduled meeting with the Chinese President:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014763797
snooper2
(30,151 posts)(considered a major competitor to US-based Cisco)
Somebody wrote that