Russian politician proposes new divisions of Ukraine
Source: Reuters
(Reuters) - A prominent Russian politician has proposed dividing Ukraine along the lines of an infamous Nazi-Soviet pact and suggested that regions in Western Ukraine hold referendums on breaking away from Kiev.
In a letter sent to the governments of Poland, Romania and Hungary, Vladimir Zhirinovsky also suggested those countries hold referendums on incorporating the regions into their territory.
(...)
He is deputy speaker at the Duma and his party holds a minority in the parliament. But his ideas and language resonate with a large part of the Russian population and the Kremlin's increasingly pro-nationalist rhetoric.
His letter, seen by Reuters, suggested Poland, Hungary and Romania, who are now in the European Union, might wish to take back regions which he said were in the past their territories.
Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/24/ukraine-crisis-partition-letter-idUSL5N0ML1LO20140324
Crazy rhetoric reminds me of the Soviet Union in 1950-1960s (think Khrushchev in the UN)...
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Seriously. Suggesting that another country drop dead?
blackspade
(10,056 posts)The bullshit land grab continues.
radicalliberal
(907 posts). . . "Germany has no interests beyond the Sudentenland"?
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 24, 2014, 03:30 PM - Edit history (1)
Too bad he hasn't. Not that it matters, since when Putin acts, he makes me think of Zhirinonvsky. Like Putin, Zhirinovsky is a Russian imperialist and a homophobe. He is also antisemitic. While I don't believe Putin is an bona fide antisemite, he would tolerate antisemitism if he saw a political advantage in it. I'm really not sure Putin is a bona fide homophobe. While Zhirinovsky may be a bona fide bigot, Putin is merely a demagogue. However, to the victims of bigotry, that is a distinction without a difference.
There is a difference between being nationalist and an imperialist. An imperialist is also a nationalist, but a Russian can be proud of being Russian without thinking he has the right to lord it over the Ukrainians (or Georgians, Armenians, Azers, Estonians, Lituanians, Latvians, Belorusans, Turkic peoples in central Asia or Poles). An imperialist is an upper class criminal with an army and who doesn't know how to read a map. Imperialism is simply slavery on a national level. If some individual believes he is so superior to another that he have the right to keep the other prisoner and collect for himself the wages on the other's labor, that is slavery. Imperialism is where the rulers of one nation feel that they are so superior to others that have the right to occupy the other nations and take control of its natural resources for its own benefit.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)I'm curious what you think of a point I made in another post as to possible imperialistic aspirations on the part of Putin. Wouldn't it make more sense from an imperialist perspective for Putin to have taken over the "Stans" first if he truly had imperialistic aspirations? He could have had them easily with no NATO to confront and thereby built up his resources and strength. Instead he never went for it. This point alone leads me to believe that Putin's goal has always been to reestablish Russia on the world stage and make it an economic superpower from within. My thinking is that since Russia was becoming an economic threat more than an imperial one....the US decided to do something to weaken that position.
Igel
(35,274 posts)Russia is the rump of an empire, with a lot of ethnic minorities that in themselves are a bit of a problem as far as Moscow is concerned. They created problems in the early '90s and as long as they behave themselves they're okay.
Russia's demographics say that it can't absorb many more "ethnics". It's got a falling Russian population and a strong nationalistic, quasi-imperialistic view ("messianic" is one word for it).
Putin's view, IMO, go in two directions.
(1) Unite Russians. Pull them in where they're safe; where they form a bloc; where they're a clear majority and call the shots. Racial purity? Nah. But certainly ethnicity; nobody's put that clear a racial spin on it.
There are Russians and then there are Russians. Belorus is Russian enough for a union with Russia. Talk was of including Ukraine. Even now you hear calls of "we're one people"--with Russia as the big, older brother. Which is how it was billed by the Slavophiles 150 years ago. Same rhetoric; same basic idea. It's tempting and easy to view them as the same, but there are differences. Even if Putin does cite those folk and the 20th-century heirs to Slavophilism, the modern version of Slavophilism, of the Russian Idea, isn't quite the same as before. Some is nuance. Some probably goes deeper, but it's hard to separate out all the strands cleanly because there's not a single spokesman that represents a clear-cut, neat view.
(2) Dominate everybody nearby. That gives you a market, a dominant sphere; it nurtures both your paranoia as well as your megalomania. Paranoia, because then it means they can't be subverting you, dominating you, offending you. And megalomania because you get to demand not just acceptance of your awesomeness, but gratitude for being as awesome as you are. (Putin's still pissed that all the statues saying how wonderful Russia and expressing undying gratitude and loyalty were taken down in much of Eastern Europe. The proper response to that arrogance, uppity-ness, is to utterly humiliate them and then condescendingly ask them to rejoin the family.)
Mixed in is the idea that the Russians are just plain superior in terms of their culture. It's like a soccer match with two sides rooting, both saying there team is better. Stronger, sure, but that's an exponent of superior culture. Hence the demand for the preservation of Russian culture. Belorusian's going to be wiped out in a generation or two because between the Empire and the USSR, it's a minority language. Even Lukashenka doesn't want to protect it all that much. Russians wouldn't mind the same fate for Ukrainian.
Even the whole "homophobia" business is Western weakness; look closely you can find views that the idea of GLBT rights is foisted on Russia by the Jews. Numerous religions are all but banned because they're Western weakness. Putin and conservatives hate people like Sorokin, who are bit players in the cultural scene in Russian (but considered very good writers by the "weak" intelligentsia). Instead you get all sorts of popular crap that revels in Russia killing other countries and dominating them. The stuff that American Democrats mostly find repulsive.
All sorts of stuff falls into the category of "Western weakness"--which is why some people don't like it when it's said right up front--"Invade Ukraine, we won't/can't help." You don't call your own bluff; you don't parade your weakness; you don't invite a bully to hit you by saying, "You know, if you hit me I'd just run home crying." It makes bullies happy.
All this "weakness" stuff sounds like Hitler, to be honest, but it's both different and the same: the "sameness" is that it goes back to the same nationalist source, mixed with a messianic vision of being superior. The difference is that Hitler hit upon race and culture; Russia just hits "culture". 3rd Rome, 3rd Internationale, it's ultimately Russia that's going to be the salvation of whomever because, gee, they're better. It's also consistent with paranoia because it motivates others irrational hatred of Russia, in their eyes.
Ini this case, though, it's not just that Russia is better--it's perfectly suited to be a bridge between East and West, with the strong points of each and the weak points of neither. So it's the natural dominant power for both coasts of that continent.
It's not simple imperialism. But since a lot of folk here like to call anything "anti-Semitic" or "not progressive enough" fascist or imperialist, it's a nice short-hand to use the word "imperialism," because to call the USSR "imperialistic" is a truthful oxymoron and it also undercuts those some would like to support wholeheartedly because they oppose the "imperialist" West.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)You seem to have a pretty good grasp on the Russian psyche in general. I have personally experienced the paranoia that permeates the culture and have wondered why it seems so "there". You sum it up quite well. You also explain quite succinctly why American Dems seem to misunderstand where Russia is "at" in regards to weakness, perception and basic human rights. I have seen consistent economic progress during my trips to Russia (8 times since 2005) and wonder how you feel about New Russia economically...any thoughts in that regards? Also I have mentioned to other posters on numerous occasions that I believe that in Russia it could always be worse and we could actually end up with someone worse than Putin and with a more unstable world (considering nukes), what do you think in relation to that subject? Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Being a KGB officer, you can sure his eyes are facing west.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)that the Arabs and other Muslim nations would get upset with him. Of course, they are at least mildly upset over Chechnya, but Putin can handle that level of bad will. Take over Uzbekistan, which is the modern country from which Timur the Lame came, then Putin might have a more serious problem on his hands.
Putin has had designs on Ukraine for some time. In 2004, Putin made it clear that Ukraine would have better relations with Russia if Viktor Yanukovich were to be elected President. This is the same election campaign where Yanukovich's opponent, Viktor Yushchenko, was slipped a dose of dioxin in something he ate and nearly died; his face is still disfigured as a result. No one can prove anything, but Russian (read: Putin's) involvement is widely suspected. Even if he had nothing to do with Yushchenko's poisoning, Putin was going too far in meddling with Ukrainian electoral politics.
Of course, no war has ever been fought a beautiful woman who left her husband for a handsome prince. Most wars are fought over trade routes or related issues, and the trade route that is most emblematic of the age of fossil fuels is the oil pipeline. That is why Putin sent Russian troops into Georgia in 2008. Putin wants to control the oil that comes out of Siberia and doesn't want anybody else having any say in where it goes. He doesn't want pipelines running through Georgia or Ukraine that crosses directly into the West without going through Russia. That would diminish Russia's influence in the world.
If we Yanks want to do something about Putin's hold on petro politics, we should stop listening to the Koch brothers and other climate change deniers who profit from oil and move forward with supplementing and replacing it with renewable energy. That would be healthier for the environment, the economy and the interests of world peace.
go west young man
(4,856 posts)once again wouldn't it have made sense (if one had imperialist views) to push further into Georgia during the 2008 crisis instead of holding off. He could have taken Tablisi easy and put a complete halt to the US pipeline that Clinton implemented running from Azerbaijan through Tablisi onto Europe. He didn't do it and I'm relatively sure he could of gotten away with it, especially in light of the fact that the UN found that Georgian troops initiated the shelling. Once again the grand imperial view doesn't add up.
My theory is that Russia has become an economic threat...not an imperial one. The imperialist narrative is the US's excuse to slow Russia down and reel it in before it becomes too big of an economic player. Of course the neocons would much rather be selling the Ukrainian natural gas to Europe, thereby cutting off Russia's rapid growth. The lose lose for regular folks on both sides is the old Cold war which leads to Russian alienation and American MIC expansion. Both sad outcomes for regular citizens on both sides, from my perspective.
ozone_man
(4,825 posts)I agree with you btw, that Putin is not looking to re-establish the Soviet empire, but rather a eurasion economic union. Russia has been essentially shut out of the western econonomics since Glasnot, so they decided to try a different route. This includes new natural gas trade with China, and enhanced trade with the Stans, Baltic provinces, Belarus, Ukraine (if possible), others,.. Also, Russia is very tolerant of different ethnicities unlike the nation states of Europe.
This site seems to be a balanced source for info:
http://www.hazar.org/blogdetail/blog/china%E2%80%99s_approach_toward_the_eurasian_economic_union_630.aspx
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)There's still no oil pipeline running around Russia through Azerbaijan and Georgia. Why risk a protracted war when he had a perfectly satisfactory result? Moreover, Russia also annexed Georgian territory in the aftermath.
Once again, the story of Helen is a good story, but it's the work of bards from the Greek dark age with no basis in fact. Over a century after Schliemann's excavation in Hisarlik, archeologists are finally discovering that there was a Trojan War, that the Myceneans did in fact lay waste to Troy about 1250 BC, but evidence shows that what the Myceneans wanted was access for their ships to the Hellespont without interference from the Trojan navy. There are few particulars.
My theory is simply that very few wars are fought over religion, ideology or a woman like Helen. They are fought over trade and resources. An imperialist war is no different. British gunboats forced China to open her ports to the infamous British East India Company, and even forced the Chinese Emperor to legalize opium so the East India Company could sell it. In short, an imperial threat is an economic threat. It is true that Russia, China and India are emerging as strong economies to rival the US, but that doesn't mean that any of those powers won't tried to subordinate weaker states to their will, and not necessarily give a rat's ass for what hardships the populations of weaker countries must endure in order to convenience the stronger economic power.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,153 posts)He's Russian.
Go mind your own country, asshole.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)If we are just going to choose the borders we like following a military conquest. Same exact logic.