Ukraine Crisis: Eastern Rebels Hold Self-Rule Referendums

[Comrade Grumpy]

Source: BBC

Pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine's two eastern regions are holding "self-rule" referendums - a move condemned by the Ukrainian government and the West. Self-proclaimed leaders in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions are going ahead with the vote despite Russian President Vladimir Putin's call to postpone it.

Ukraine says the vote could result in the "self-destruction" of the regions.

Pro-Russian gunmen occupying offices in a number of towns have been involved in heavy clashes with Ukrainian troops.

Reports say there was a fierce fighting overnight on the outskirts of the rebel-held city of Sloviansk, which remains sealed by government troops conducting what the government in Kiev describes as an "anti-terror" operation.

<snip>

On Saturday, Ukraine's interim President Olexandr Turchynov admitted many in eastern Ukraine supported the pro-Russian militants, but warned that the referendums were "a step towards the abyss".

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27360146

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The West and the Ukrainians may have overreached earlier this year. Now, we're seeing the reaction in slow motion. A lot of people are playing a dangerous game here. Who knows where it ends?

[Joe Shlabotnik]

1. Bravo

I hope they absorb some the aspects of the BH uprising that media refuses to cover. Workers, citizens regardless of all ethnicisities, converging in plenums, exercising consensus building and direct democracy to decide their vision and fate: not believing the IMF, and their pre-selected and vetted government shill representatives.

[joshcryer]

4. Eh, Russia is hardly a democracy:

[dipsydoodle]

2. East Ukraine referendum raises fears of partition

(Reuters) - East Ukrainian rebels pressed ahead with a referendum on self-rule on Sunday and new fighting flared in a conflict that has raised fears of civil war and pitched relations between Russia and the West into their worst crisis since the Cold War.

Clashes broke out overnight around a television tower on the outskirts of Slaviansk, the most heavily defended rebel redoubt. They resumed in the morning just before voters made their way to polling stations through streets blocked by barricades of felled trees, tyres and rusty machinery.

"I wanted to come as early as I could. We all want to live in our own country," said Zhenya Denyesh, a 20-year-old student voting at a three-storey concrete and glass university building.

Asked what he thought would come after the vote, he replied: "It will still be war."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/11/uk-ukraine-crisis-idUKKBN0DR04H20140511

[joshcryer]

3. Only 130 polling stations.

Will be interesting. Will have to push through 5-10 people a minute to be able to call legitimacy. It's possible. The queues I'm seeing appear to be quite slow though.

[dipsydoodle]

5. Guardian live updates here

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/11/ukraine-referendum-for-self-rule-in-eastern-regions-begins-live-updates

[joshcryer]

6. Already several reports of people voting more than once.

What a clusterfuck. The lines will be "busy" all day, with people returning and voting again and again.

[davidpdx]

8. Vote early, vote often

Made me think of what Bartlett jokingly said in the following clip (starts at the 1:20 mark):

[joshcryer]

9. "In this building, when the President stands, nobody sits."

That was epic. One day I will watch West Wing... still have House of Cards to finish.

[newthinking]

7. The referendum is a mistake - But it does appear people are interested

The referendum will just be used as propaganda fodder (on all sides) because it obviously is not well organized nor are there neutral monitors. But it does say something that people are lining up.

[Igel]

13. Some are.

It's a problem that the ballots are photocopied and it's easy to just take one and photocopy more. There are not rolls.

The elections aren't free. Yeah, anybody can vote, but if you voice the wrong views you won't be just be intimidated by having somebody present. It speaks loads that some "activists" tried to remove a miner's tattoo that said "Glory to Ukraine." He'd had it for years. Suddenly it meant he was Right Sector, so armed "activists" kidnapped him, beat him and tried to remove it. With knives.

The elections aren't fair. The results will be taken to apply to the entire oblast. But only very heavily urban areas will have polls. Primarily those that are strongly Russian. (No, Slov'yansk is not 100% Russian.)

The counters are strong proponents of having a "yes." The organizers have advertised, campaigned for "yes." They have intimidated at gunpoint media that don't argue "yes," closed some local media outlets entirely (telling the owners and reporters it would be best if they left town), and insist that only the Russian tv view of what's going on is the correct view.

And the best? "Whatever the turnout, we will judge the results to be valid." (Yes, that is a quote. From various. Lyashkin--Lyagin?--being the one I remember. The elections organizer.)

Months ago I predicted the Georgia variant as a viable possibility. Not the one under Putin, the one under Lenin. A small group sets themselves up as the one true legitimate government then, when they're threatened, invites in the Red Army to make them the real government. Then Lenin could turn around and say that they were invited in by the legitimate government to put down those opposed to democracy.

[newthinking]

14. It's not going to do any good. Nobody is supporting it including Putin. But that does not mean that

people in the East do not want to be distanced some from a government many consider to be illegitimate.

I don't think this will go anywhere. And I think it is pretty clear that Putin is not going to enter the region as long as Kiev tempers their reaction and there are not mass civilian casualties.

It is time for us to put pressure on Kiev. People are beginning to realize that Kiev has been completely uncooperative, won't reign in Neo-nazi's, could care less about representing half the people, and is talking out of both sides of their mouth.

[ballyhoo]

15. Everything proceeding as planned. Your point

about the people's interest is paramount to all. It is palpable. Not too much doubt what's going to happen next. I am now on the fence as to whether it should have been delayed. People looked very excited. A bird in the hand...

[pampango]

10. I wonder if they will use the same far-right election observers as with the Crimea referendum.

A day before the election, the Russian-state-owned RT News claimed that nearly 70 international observers had registered to monitor the referendum.

However, concerns have been raised about the observers' objectivity. The OSCE election monitoring mission was not dispatched. According to Yale historian Timothy Snyder, observers were invited by the Russian government from among European far-right parties.

The Ukrayinska Pravda reported that Russia formally asked all Russian-speaking European Union citizens and expats to become observers in Crimea while travel, accommodation and all expenses will be covered.

These included Luc Michel, formerly of the French neo-Nazi party Fédération d'action nationale et européenne, Enrique Ravello, formerly of the Spanish neo-Nazi party CEDADE (currently of the far-right Platform for Catalonia) and Béla Kovács of the Hungarian far-right party Jobbik.

Objectivity of the international observers and the Russian-based Eurasian Observatory for Democracy & Elections (EODE), which claimed to be an election monitoring organization, has been questioned, since many of the "observers" and the EODE have ties to European far-right and neo-nazi groups. including the mission leader Mateusz Piskorski, who is a far-right activist and antisemite.

Shaun Walker from The Guardian reported that during a press conference on the eve of the referendum, some of the aforementioned observers "went on political rants against U.S. hegemony in the world", describing the press conference as "rather bizarre".

Exit-polls were allowed only for the Republican Institute of Sociological Research since, according to Russia-24, no other organizations have applied for accreditation for exit polls.

---snip---

The official result from the Autonomous Republic of Crimea was a 96.77 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 83.1 percent voter turnout. Andrey Illarionov, former Russian government adviser, based on polls over the previous three years stated that the support for the reunification of Crimea with Russia was about 34 percent. Mejlis Deputy Chairman Akhtem Chiygoz argued that voter turnout in the referendum among Crimeans could only be a maximum of 30–40 percent.

Thirteen members of the United Nations Security Council voted in favor of a resolution declaring the referendum invalid, but Russia vetoed it and China abstained. A non-binding United Nations General Assembly resolution was later adopted by a vote of 100 in favor vs. 11 against with 58 abstentions, which declared the referendum invalid and affirmed Ukraine's territorial integrity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Observers

Odd how the folks supposedly so worried about fascists in Kiev would invite so many fascists to observer their own referendum.

Even Russian human rights body finds Crimean referendum falsified

Vladimir Putin’s own Council on the Development of Civil Society and Human Rights has confirmed that the turnout for the so-called “referendum” on the Crimea’s status was much lower than reported, and the results also far less overwhelmingly in favour of joining Russia. The same results have been reported from other sources, however this report can hardly be dismissed as seditious US propaganda. The confirmation that Russia used falsified figures to justify the annexation comes on the eve of other supposed “referendums” planned for two east Ukrainian oblasts.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014797263

[joshcryer]

11. I remember when a Jobbik outlet was cited frequently here.

Those were trying times. Fortunately 90% of those shills were banned.

[pampango]

12. You have a better memory than me. I suppose a few of Jobbik's policies may be superficially

attractive to some on the left, but it is hard core far-right, even neo-fascist.

Jobbik has been described as fascist, neo-fascist, Neo-Nazi, extremist, racist, anti-Semitic, anti-Roma and homophobic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik#Platform_and_ideology

Glad those poster using Jobbik sources were mostly banned anyway.

[Comrade Grumpy]

16. I just watched crowds of people voting and waiting to vote on the BBC.

With all its issues, this referendum has gone off well enough for the separatists to make a claim of popular support.

I suspect the current incarnation of Ukraine is about to undergo some modifications.

[bemildred]

17. Ukraine guardsmen open fire on crowd in east after referendum

KRASNOARMEISK, Ukraine - Ukrainian national guardsmen opened fire Sunday on a crowd outside a town hall in eastern Ukraine and an official for the region's insurgents said there were fatalities.

The bloodshed in the town of Krasnoarmeisk occurred hours after dozens of guardsmen shut down voting in a referendum on sovereignty for the region.

An Associated Press photographer who witnessed the shooting said two people were seen lying unmoving on the ground and insurgent leader Denis Pushilin was quoted by the ITAR-Tass news agency as saying there were an unspecified number of deaths.

Several hours earlier, guardsmen came to the town about 20 miles from the regional capital, Donetsk, and dispersed referendum voting that was taking place outside the town hall and they took control of the building. In the evening, more guardsmen arrived in a van and a scuffle broke out with people who were gathered around the building. Then the guardsmen fired shots.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-guardsmen-open-fire-on-crowd-in-east-after-referendum/

[bemildred]

18. Ukraine security forces riven by mistrust, wrangle over prisoners

MARIUPOL Ukraine (Reuters) - The two men crouched in the shade of a tree. The ballot papers they were accused of forging lay on the front of their Russian-made Moskvich car, stopped and searched by Ukrainian soldiers on the outskirts of the port city of Mariupol, in the country's rebel southeast.

"This is how they did it in Crimea," said warrant officer Timofey Rudyak, who like the other soldiers had been sent 750 km (500 miles) from the capital, Kiev, to restore order to the country's industrial heartland.

Rudyak, 35, said the several hundred ballots, bound in white paper and almost all ticked 'Yes', had been intercepted little over an hour after voting began in a referendum on self-rule; a vote dismissed by Ukraine's government and its Western backers as a sham, a repeat of the vote that saw the Crimean peninsula annexed by Russia in March.

Reuters did not witness the initial stop-and-search, nor was this reporter allowed by the soldiers to speak to the suspects.

https://in.news.yahoo.com/ukraine-security-forces-riven-mistrust-wrangle-over-prisoners-175758023.html