Kerry privately urges Poroshenko to provide evidence of Kremlin involvement with separatists in Ukra

[dipsydoodle]

Source: Interfax Ukraine

Kerry privately urges Poroshenko to provide evidence of Kremlin involvement with separatists in Ukraine's east.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry in a private talk with Ukrainian President-Elect Petro Poroshenko urged him to provide evidence of Russian involvement with separatists in the east of Ukraine, The New York Times reported on Thursday.

According to the newspaper, Kerry asked Poroshenko for the information so as "to know what to confront Russian officials with."

As reported, on Wednesday Poroshenko met with Kerry and U.S. President Barack Obama in the Polish capital Warsaw.

Previously, Russian President Vladimir Putin has asked U.S. President Barack Obama to provide evidence of Russia's military presence in Ukraine, if he has any.

"Let them present this evidence," Putin said in an interview with French media, repeating that Russia had no troops in Ukraine.

Read more: http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/208027.html

---

Kerry Demands Poroshenko Prove Russia’s Involvement in East Ukraine Events.

MOSCOW, June 5 (RIA Novosti) – US Secretary of State John Kerry has urged Ukrainian President-elect Petro Poroshenko prove that Russia is involved in the independence movement in the eastern regions of Ukraine, according to The New York Times.

During a meeting in Poland on Wednesday, Kerry asked the newly elected president to provide evidence of a connection between Moscow and Ukraine’s independence supporters, according to the media outlet.

The politicians also discussed the democratic development of Ukraine. Kerry expressed admiration for the people of Ukraine and congratulated Poroshenko on his victory in the May 25 presidential election.

After talks with Kerry, the president-elect met US President Barack Obama to discuss US help in training Ukrainian military forces, and Ukraine’s energy security.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140605/190366404/Kerry-Demands-Poroshenko-Prove-Russias-Involvement-in-East.html

[jakeXT]

1. If they have to ask a disgraced oligarch for evidence

In an interview with French TV, he ridiculed US claims it had evidence of Russian military interference in eastern Ukraine.

"The entire world remembers the US secretary of state demonstrating the evidence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, waving around some test tube with washing powder in the UN Security Council," he said.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27691607

The not-very-nice things U.S. officials used to say about Ukraine’s new president

...

Back in 2006, U.S. officials were describing him as "disgraced" and "deeply unpopular."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/05/29/the-not-very-nice-things-u-s-officials-used-to-say-about-ukraines-new-president/

[Tommy_Carcetti]

2. Putin's funny.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/ukraine-crisis-russia-crimea-idUSL6N0M122M20140304

Russia's Putin denies Russian troops took Crimea

MOSCOW, March 4 Tue Mar 4, 2014 6:09am EST

(Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin denied on Tuesday that Russian troops seized Ukraine's southern Crimea region, saying "local forces of self defence" were responsible for taking over official buildings.

Putin also told a news conference that Russia had no interest in provoking separatist sentiment in Crimea.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/04/17/russia-putin-crimea-idUKL6N0N921H20140417

Putin admits Russian forces were deployed to Crimea
MOSCOW, April 17 Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:51am BST

(Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin said Russian forces had been active in Crimea in order to support local defence forces, the first time he has admitted deployment of Russian troops on the Black Sea peninsula.

"We had to take unavoidable steps so that events did not develop as they are currently developing in southeast Ukraine," Putin said in a televised call-in with the nation. "Of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces."
______________________________________________________________________________________________

[dipsydoodle]

3. Your first link is prior to 16 Mar 2014

and your second link follows their referendum that day when they voted to join Russia.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. Yeah, and *this* is from March 3, 2014.

Don't play stupid.

[dipsydoodle]

6. I can only suggest you forward that to Kerry

in an effort to help prevent him from making any further lame redundant remarks on the subject to Ukraine's new President.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. Kerry's not the one whose credibility is suspect here. nt

[dipsydoodle]

8. The credibility issue

revolves around the fact that the State Dept. gets information from Kiev only - nowhere else. Jen Psaki confirmed that during a meeting with the press in answer to relevant direct questions on the subject.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. And Putin's credibility issue is that he flat out lied about Russian military in Crimea.

Which in my opinion is the far more glaring issue.

Why should we trust Putin now?

[MBS]

32. + 1 n/t

[happyslug]

64. And you expected anyone is a war to tell the Truth?????

When the Crimea was taken over by Russia, Putin was very careful, he made sure no Russian Soldier or Sailor opened fire first. Such soldiers could defend themselves, but they had to retreat if they could. Any actual take over was done by locals under the supervision of Russian Troops.

Now, Russia had the RIGHT to defend its basis in the Ukraine, even from the Ukrainian AND Russian had the right, by treaty to send in troops if Russia thought it was necessary to do so.

Putin NEVER denied the above, for the simple reason everyone could see it happening.

AS to taking over the basis, Putin made sure no photo of Russian Soldiers in Russian Uniform were taken by the simple policy of issuing new black uniforms to the troops sent in. Thus the troops actually taking over various parts of the Crimea, where never accepted as Russian Troops. In fact I do not believe Putin has made that claim to this day. Putin HAD awarded awards to Russian Units that took part in the take over, but only as support for "Crimea Forces" or to "prevent" violence between Ukrainian forces and the Crimea Forces (i.e. told the Ukrainians to surrender so they would attack them as breaking the "peace" with the Crimea forces.

You may say this is unimportant, nothing but propaganda, and to a degree you would be right. On the other hand Putin can NOT be charged with taking over the Crimea for the only thing we have on paper or video supports the above.

Thus Putin has kept his word, he did NOT permit "RUSSIAN" Troops into the Crimea other then as permitted by his treaty with the Ukraine. You can NOT trace any of the actual takeover of the Military bases to Russian Troops, for the Troops that actually took them over always said they were NOT Russian Troops but Crimea Troops. Putin can claim he had no command over troops of the Crimea till the Crimea voted to become part of Russia. He kept this word to the letter of the law. That is what everyone hates him, you can NOT prove he broke international law. His awarded of awards were to Russian Units that did what they were permitted to do under the terms of the Treaty he had with the Ukraine. Thus proves nothing except Putin will protect Russian Interest within the confines of International Law.

[SamKnause]

5. Sounds like a reasonable request,

if and that is a big IF, we could trust our government.

They have proven time after time they can not be trusted.

(We live in a culture of over-classification. TRILLIONS of new pages of text are classified each year. More than 4.8 million people have security clearance.

In one instance it documented, a government agency was found to be classifying one petabyte of new data every 18 months the equivalent of 20m filing cabinets filled with text.) Snippets from an article in the Guardian.

If the government of the U.S. is representing the best interest of We the People why is everything being kept secret ???

Does the U.S. government, the military brass, our police forces, our penal institutions, our district attorney's, court penalties sentencing, U.S. CEOs, and Wall Street have reputations of honesty and fairness ????

[JackRiddler]

9. So Kerry himself lacks this evidence?

That's funny, because the Russians (or someone!) seem to have pretty good evidence of U.S. covert intervention in Ukrainian affairs. How did that happen?

[jamzrockz]

10. Americans use unsecured

cell phones, the Russians don't.

[karynnj]

12. One might guess that the Russians are the one's with the superior spy network

Are you ok with the Russians spying?

Not to mention, the Nuland conversation was taken out of context. Do you really think that various American diplomats do not speak of the various politicians who may be in power in the future? In any country, there likely are people you might prefer not to come to power - and others you might indicate were not harmful. In Ukraine, there were likely more of the former than the latter.

[jakeXT]

27. NYT: “In Ukraine War, Kremlin Leaves No Fingerprints.”“Mr. Putin may not be directing these events..

Times reporter Sabrina Tavernise traveled to Donetsk but could not find the desired evidence. The Russian nationalists said they had no connections to Moscow and were motivated simply by a determination to help protect fellow ethnic Russians from the escalating military assault from western Ukraine.

Despite those disappointing findings, the Times front-page story on June 1 still made the desired point through its headline: “In Ukraine War, Kremlin Leaves No Fingerprints.” The phrasing assumes that Russian interference is real, just that the culprit has been careful to wipe away any evidence.

The article stated its conclusion this way: “Mr. Putin may not be directing these events, but he is certainly their principal beneficiary.” But is that tendentious phrasing even true? Putin has shown a willingness to have a dialogue with Ukraine’s new President-elect Petro Poroshenko in hopes to calming down the crisis on Russia’s border.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/06/04/the-only-standards-are-double-standards/

[Tommy_Carcetti]

29. The problem for Putin is that his credibility's been totally shot after Crimea

So when he comes out saying Russia has no presence in Eastern Ukraine, it sounds awfully similar to his claims that the Russian military wasn't in Crimea....claims which he completely contradicted after the annexation of that territory was complete.

And the fact of the matter is that right now there are Russian citizens who are fighting in Eastern Ukraine on the side of the seperatists. Extremely well-armed Russian citizens. See the Vostok battalion amongst others. One clearly has to wonder how these Russian citizens are so well armed and who's arming them.

[JackRiddler]

49. Help me out, what's the name for your fallacy?

I mean this one: "Someone lied or did something bad in the past. Therefore any bad claim made about this person must be true." Even if there is no evidence for the claim. Even if it's just an invention, or wishful thinking.

Kerry himself seems to lack the evidence of a Russian state intervention in Ukraine and it ain't, as someone suggested above, because the Americans are too nice (use unsecured phones!) and therefore leave evidence, whereas the Russians are so devious that they can "wipe their fingerprints" of the evil the New York Times presumes but cannot prove they have done.

The fact of the matter is that right now by admission of CIA and FBI, they have their personnel (not volunteers, like the Russians) in Ukraine, serving as "advisers" to the Yatsenyuk government coalition (which consists of neoliberals with outright fascists as the junior partner). Kiev is conducting a bloody crackdown on the ethnic Russians of eastern Urkraine.

And neither the New York Times nor Kerry can produce evidence of intervention by the Russian state. If Russian nationals are helping the ethnic Russians being attacked in Ukraine, this is not much of a surprise.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

86. Actually in the US legal system a person's prior lies can be used to impeach their crediblity...

....on subsequent matters. And a person's prior bad acts can be used as evidence to show a pattern of behavior.

So we have it undoubtedly clear that Vladimir Putin lied about his troops not assisting with the Crimean annexation given that he later admitted the exact opposite. And now we have Putin saying the exact same thing about the situation in Eastern Ukraine.

Now, it is true that those prior lies alone are not smoking gun evidence in and of themselves that Putin is lying about Eastern Ukraine. But when you couple it with the other evidence that also indicates all sorts of Russian footprints over Eastern Ukraine, Putin's credibility becomes incredibly suspect.

Right now it is undisputed that there are Russian nationals from Russia fighting in Eastern Ukraine. That has long been established by news and video reports. You have Igor Girkin, a Russian military intelligence officer, who is leading the Donetsk separatist military campaign. You have the "Vostok Battallion" paramailitary force who come in extremely, extremely well-armed...far better armed and organized than you would ever think any sort of "volunteers" would be. When members of that battalion were killed in combat, their bodies were shipped back to Russia. And when you consider Russia also commissioned a "Vostok Battallion" paramilitary force to help fight its battles in Chechnya, again there is a strong sense that history is repeating itself.

Then you have the fact that the militants have attacked Ukrainian-Russian border crossings so that supplies and weaponry can come in from Russia.

Now, I know you and some others have claimed any Russian national participation are "volunteers" and are not acting under state color. Some have drawn the comparison to Americans fighting in the Spanish Civil War, or various other foreign conflicts where the US military itself wasn't involved. However, they aren't considering the main difference between those situations and this one: the Spanish Republicans weren't demanding to become part of the United States (or even to have one part of Spain separate from the other). Thus the mindset of any foreigner going to fight in a situation like the Spanish War would be entirely different than the mindset of a Russian national going to fight in Eastern Ukraine where separatists have demanded specific regions of Ukraine separate from Ukraine and join none of than Russia itself.

In other words, these Russian nationals are not fighting out of any greater ideological purposes but are in essence fighting for Russia itself, since the ultimate intent of the militants is to have Donetsk and Lugansk annexed by Russia. Now you have to consider Putin--if he brings in his regular troops and invades Ukraine, he'll undoubtedly face strong sanctions from the West, far stronger than what's currently been imposed on him. But if he plays the paramilitary game, sending in Russian military agents and paramilitary forces, he can achieve similar results while maintaining an air of plausible deniability. Plausible deniability was in fact what Putin skated on in Crimea all the way until the coast was clear and he could take off the mask.

Even if one were to assume that these Russian nationals are completely volunteers free of all control or agency of Moscow, Putin could easily throw cold water on the situation by asserting unconditionally that Russia would not recognize any entrance of these separatist regions into the Russian Federation. But he hasn't done so, and given his "Novorossiya" remarks a couple months back, I doubt he has any interest in making any such statement.

[JackRiddler]

87. This is not a legal proceeding and you are sticking to the fallacy.

Someone's word in court can be rendered impeachable as testimony, because they are known as a liar. And yet still, you cannot pretend that every factual statement they made is proven untrue simply because they said it.

In other words, court policy notwithstanding, no one is the famous Cretan who always lies; they will generally lie out of interest. E.g., the sun may still rise in the east, and that's still true if a Cretan said it, etc.

However, this isn't even your fallacy. You go even further: Your doctrine with regard to Putin and Russians seems to be that once someone is designated (by you) as a liar about anything, then you can make up any accusation against them that you feel like and consider it to be proven true. So this is a kind of hyper-fallacy. (I'm sure it has a name, do you by any chance recall it? "He's an asshole, so he's fair game for any bullshit I hurl"?)

If we look at Putin's interest, it's actually complicated. His government did not prompt or support the change in Kiev, but was taken by surprise. The February Kiev regime expressed immediate belligerence toward Russians. Given the close NATO-U.S. connections of the Yatsenyuk government, it's no surprise that Moscow (rightly or wrongly - and I'd say wrongly!) sought to secure Crimea, an overwhelmingly Russian peninsula with Russian bases and a population that welcomed annexation. The last thing Moscow now needs, however, is a destabilizing civil war in the rest of Ukraine, and so, logically, Putin has been looking to negotiate a solution.

As long as the ethnic Russians in the east are under violent attack from the Kiev government, there are doubtless pressures on Putin to help protect them, for example to allow volunteer Russian ethnic paramilitaries to get through the border. You say, " I doubt he has any interest in making any such statement" that he opposes separatism, and I'm sure it's true. Not as long as ethnic Russians are being killed by Kiev. This doesn't mean the Russian state has an interest in stoking the Donbass separatist movement, or attempting to seize territory that, again, will only bring enormous headaches: civil war, terrorism, refugees, trade war with the West. The Russian state's real interest is self-evident: a ceasefire.

If peace is reestablished and Ukraine continues to have semi-unfixed elections, sooner or later the toppling of the austerity government is practically guaranteed. In fact, it's clearly the Yatsenyuk side that would have the realpolitik interest in ethnic strife. If the issues are about ethnicity and fear, they can retain a solid base, which may explain their willingness to make a coalition with out-and-out fascists as their partners, even though these fascists, as you like to point out, are unpopular. If the issues become economic, however, they may be able to sell the IMF-EU austerity bullshit for a while, but inevitably will become very unpopular.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

88. If you bothered to read my posts upthread....

....I expressed my opinion that I did not believe Putin's claim that Russian forces were not involved in the unrest in Eastern Ukraine. That opinion was based on my observations of the facts as I know them, including the fact that Putin had made the exact same claim about Crimea and was ultimately revealed to be a liar. It was also based on my observation about Russian nationals known to be currently fighting in Eastern Ukraine, and to the sophistication and extent these individuals appear to be trained and equipped not usually associated with freelance volunteers.

So all I've really done is put forth my opinion and to state the facts which I believe support my opinion. Take it as you will.

I do sense that you are attempting to falsely recreate the dynamic of the situation in Eastern Ukraine as a "massacre" of ethnic Russians. As if following the change in power in Ukraine back in February, the Ukrainian army set out upon Eastern Ukraine to specifically target peace ethnic Russian people living in Ukraine and impacted great unprovoked violence upon them. However, this is anything but the case. What you see in Eastern Ukraine now is and has always been a military operation against armed militants. It was the separatists who seized Ukrainian government buildings by force and declared themselves sovereign powers. While the Ukrainian government did offer amnesty to these individuals and did signal they were open to the possibility of further decentralization in favor of regional government, the militants expressed no interest in leaving. They then engaged in a campaign of intimidation where individuals (including journalists and deemed as threats to these self-proclaimed "People's governments" were beaten, kidnapped or even murdered. The militants grew continuously better equipped and better armed. Notably, the majority of citizens in Eastern Ukraine did not actually want to separate from Ukraine or join Russia, but the well-armed minority of militant separatists that were sitting in these government buildings was not making life easy for the majority. And at some point, enough became enough and the military operation began to root out these people. Unfortunately, with the flow of both weaponry and manpower over the Russian border, it hasn't been a simple operation.

[karynnj]

11. It is relevant to add that Kerry is meeting with Lavrov, the Russian Foreign Minister

It seems reasonable, sensible and logical that before the meeting, Kerry would ask the Ukrainian President to provide proof on the President's claims.

The use of the word "demands" in the second is an attempt to negatively color Kerry's action - as demand has an authoritarian feel for it.

Does anyone think it would be a better idea for Kerry to not ask for any proof the Ukrainian government has? I would think that especially those who routinely post from rt - not the op - would prefer that the US not meet Lavrov with accusations for which they have no backup for. That certainly does not mean that the US (Kerry or anyone) should take anything given to them as indisputable truth.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. Vladimir Putin to Dubya, 2008:

"You have to understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a country. Part of its territory is in Eastern Europe and the greater part was given to us."

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/03/opinion/stent-putin-ukraine-russia-endgame/index.html

[happyslug]

61. I read that Article, and I seriously has doubt on the author's position.

Lets look at one paragraph:

The United States can threaten economic sanctions, expel Russia from the G-8 and consider a range of other measures, but the Kremlin must have already discounted these possible countermeasures well before it executed its carefully planned takeover of Crimea

carefully planned takeover????? Even Kissinger admits that Putin did not spend million hosting the winter Olympics to blow all he had gain by taking the Crimea right afterward. Putin was REACTING to what was happening in Kiev, not causing what happened.

Now, her article starts out with this paragraph:

For Moscow, the drama that has been unfolding in Ukraine for the past three months is a domestic and an international issue. After all, if a revolution can unseat an unpopular, corrupt government in Kiev, why not in Moscow?

Now, that projection if I have ever read projection. As long as the Red Army is united it can put down any revolt or coup. Right now they is NO movement with the Red Army other then to support Putin. Thus any possibility of a "Orange" type revolution in Moscow is about the same for one in Washington, i.e. Zero. Putin has a strong support, and his main opposition is the Communist party, which is presently supporting what Putin is doing in the Ukraine. I think the author wants a revolution in Moscow and she wants it run by the "Liberal" opposition that gets less votes then the Communists, but they have no support from the Red Army, the bureaucrats that run the Government, the Orthodox church or any other nation wide organisation. The Liberal opposition is as large is it is going to get for to get larger it has to win support from people presently supporting Putin or the Communists, and once the liberals do so, they have to give up on many of the programs they base of support demands. i.e. to get larger they have to adopt a program much more like the Communists and Putin, but if they do they base of support today will leave them.

Thus if anyone is going to replace Putin it is the Communists. They are strong at the local level and in the bureaucracy and in the Army (and has strong connections with the Orthodox Church). In many ways they followers still want to have more government control over the assets of Russia then does the Putin and his supporters, they want increase spending on the poor and other social spending (in which they are supported by the Orthodox Church). Putin strength has been to provide these services himself and cut back on any support the Communist get for advocating these programs. The main difference is the Communists want to crack down on the Oligarchs, who Putin see as his main source of support (and again the Communists are supported by the Orthodox Church is this matter). The Oligarchs see Putin as the Strong leader that can do what is needed to stay in power and thus preserve they power (When Yeltsin was replaced by Putin, it was do to the fact the Communists were set to win the next election do to the Russian people rejecting Yeltsin's adoption of radical capitalism in the 1990s, the people brought the line they had to sacrifice for almost 10 years, but it was finally getting to a point the the people were saying NO and prepared to vote the communists back in. Yeltsin was out, Putin was in and with Putin all types of Social Programs were adopted, Pensions were increased, old people had enough money so that they no longer had to go on the street to try to see what they had in their homes. Putin even made sure the Army was feed (if you remember reports from the 1990s, you had Russian Soldiers begging for food on Russian Public Highways).

My point is Putin is secure, for no one wants the Communists in Control and the liberal opposition is to weak for anyone to worry about. Thus a revolution is Moscow is almost impossible. Thus the author claim of a concern by Putin of such a revolution amounts to wishful thinking on the part of the Author. Putin may be replaced, but it will be by someone just like him and who will carry out his program.

As to the quote the Author used, it is almost the same comment I have made about the area between the Mountains of Silesia and the Pacific Ocean, the various nationalities are concentrated along the rivers between those two pieces of geography, with the people of both intermixing in the flat areas between those rivers drainage area. The Poles are along the Vistula, the Ukrainians along the Dnieper, the Russians along the Volga. Moscow is between three rivers and is the center of Russia, which spread down all three rivers, the Volga (the largest River in Europe heading for the Caspian Sea), the Northern Dvina (heading to Archangel and the Arctic Ocean) and the Neva- Lake Lagoda-Volga-Baltic Waterway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neva

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Ladoga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga-Baltic_Waterway

All three river systems have been connected by man made canals since the early 1800s, and before that by ox draw wagons between the three river systems (the areas is all flat. Moscow is more or less in the center of these three systems, thus since the 1200s they have been more or less treated as the best way to move cargo around Russia and all three systems combined is the heart of Russia.

The biggest problem with the Russia system is the Don. The Don is connected by canal to the Volga, and thus connect the above system to the Sea of Azov and thus into the Black Sea. The Don is a Russia River, but its main tributary is the Donets which flows from the Ukraine into the Don. The Donets is also that part of the Ukraine where people speak Russian not Ukrainian. In many ways the Don has been so close to the Volga that it is part of the Volga system. In many ways this explains the high number of Russian Speakers in that area, it is overflow from the Volga.

Thus the heart of Poland is the Vistula, the heart of Ukrainian is the Dnieper, and the heart of Russian is the Volga AND the Northern Dvina AND the Neva- Lake Lagoda-Volga-Baltic Waterway AND the Don.

in the flat lands where the drainage areas of these rivers overlap is where the people of these waterways also overlap. This is not like in Western Europe where the Alps isolate Italy from France, Germany and Slovenia, Where Spain and France is divide by the mountains in between. Where France was defined for centuries as not including anything the flowed into the Rhine (Louis XIV was the one who pushed the French border to the Rhine, and that German Speaking part of France has been a problems ever since). Mountains make excellent borders, Rivers, lakes and small sea do not (people use water transportation if it is available thus River, Lakes and Small Seas unite people through trade not divide them by the geographical fact of they existence).

Now, as you go further East, you run into rivers that flows NORTH into the Arctic. The Ural is the last river the flows south, and then into the Caspian Sea, an inland sea. The Ural was for centuries the de facto border between Russia and the remains of the Mongol Empire, till the later was taken over by Russia. As the population of Russia grew, its ability to raise troops to attack and occupy what is now Siberia grew. By the time of Catherine the Great, Russia had reached the Pacific and was doing its best to stop the raids into Russia from what is now Kazakhstan (Catherine finally decided she had to spend the money and conquer what is now known as the Former Soviet Central Asiatic Republic, to stop the slave raids into Russia. She was about to launch such an attack when she died and succeeded by her son Paul, who dropped the plan. Since it was 1796 Paul and after his death in 1801, Nicolas I. Central Asia had to wait till after Napoleon was defeated. The Russian finally got around to taking over those areas in the late 1800s.

My point is Russia's Natural Borders overlapps Poland's, the Ukraine, and even Belarus. Now Belarus is a unique country, it is basically the Pinsk Swamps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsk_Marshes

Being in the middle of a swamp, Belarus is really not part of any of the countries around it, but at the same time drawn to those countries. Thus holistically this has always been a border area, mostly between Russia and Poland, with the border shifting between the two depending on which was stronger. This had an effect on the Ukraine, for the Pinsk Swamps flows into the Pinsk River which flows into the Dnieper. At the same time the swamps made the area impassible in summer (Thus when attack, the smart invader did it is winter, the ground when frozen became a huge frozen highway).

As far as the Ukraine is concern, Belarus is its northern neighbor, being a close ally of Russia makes the existence of an independent Ukraine, without permission of Moscow, a meaningless term. What I mean by that is Russia can accept an independent Ukraine, but not a hostile Independent Ukraine. And what is important is NOT how the people of the Ukraine sees they relationship with Moscow, but how Moscow sees that relationship.

Now, if you read the above carefully you will see that each of these countries are centered around rivers. The problem is as you get away from those Core Rivers, the population tend to mingle. Thus what is Ukrainian, what is Poland, what is Russia, what is Belarus is at best ill defined in this part of the world. Thus Putin's statement about the Ukraine has an element of truth to it. In many ways it extends to far into Russian speaking areas (i.e. the Donets and the Don) and in some ways to much into Polish speaking areas and in areas of people speaking Belarusian. Stalin when he drew up the borders of the Ukraine, wanted as many Russia speakers as he could put in the country, thus its high Russian Speaking areas of Eastern Ukraine. Stalin had done that in 1924, in 1945 Poland gave up those parts of then Eastern Poland that spoke mostly Ukrainian to the Ukraine. This upset Stalin's plan of 1924, but enlarging the Soviet Union was more important to Stalin then maintaining high Russian population percentage in the Ukraine.

Thus the borders of Eastern Europe are at best arbitrary. The heartland of the Ukraine is the Dnieper River, the real question is how far east and west does it go? Is the Donets really in the Ukraine or is it Russia? The Donets flows into the Don, a Russian River.

And lets not forget the reverse argument, does the Ukraine include the Don? Today, the Don is a 100 % Russian River, but the Donets flows into the Don from the Ukraine. You have Ukrainians speakers in the area (through most mostly speak Russian for that is what most people speak).

As to the Western Ukraine, that was part of Poland before WWII, should it not be Polish today? Polish Speakers still exist in the area.

Here is a map of actually spoken langagues:



Map of "Legal" Languages. Notice Alsace Lorraine in the above map it is shown speaking German, in the map below it is show speaking French. It is NOT illegal to Speak German in France (including Alsace Lorraine) but it is illegal to do any official act in any language other then French (including going to School, thus French is imposed on non French Speakers in France, and that has been the case since Louis XIV).



http://indo-europeanlanguages.blogspot.com/2012/08/languages-and-linguistic-map-europe-2012.html

I bring the situation up in Alsace Lorraine for I can use it to make a point as to Eastern Europeans and not get to many people mad at me. What is the official language and what is taught in schools, may NOT be what is spoken at home. That appears to be the case in Eastern Europe to a much higher degree then shown on the map. On the other hand the map is the best evidence we have so I am using it, for it does include Three Polish speaking areas in the Ukraine and Two Ukrainian speaking areas inside Poland.

The areas have been more or less stable since 1850, but in 1850 a lot more overlap (please note Stalin did the most to "solve" the problems of such overlap, he was the one who removed a lot of minorities from all over Eastern Europe. The Germans out of Silesia and Prussia in addition to Czech Republic.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3hQpdyNPpuA/S9vg3rmY_OI/AAAAAAAACOE/DjVgqRnyGDU/s640/Languages+europe_1850c_1901c.jpg

Slavic Languages of Europe:



I bring up the issue of language, for language is what drives most nationalities and something the author ignores for it upsets her world view of Russia.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ALVbofYd_q8/UIvfgpCh1DI/AAAAAAAAFMI/aki-VXb076w/s1600/Dialec+map+in+Europe+-+Belarusian.png

[JackRiddler]

63. Informative & appreciated

Many Western writers are selectively blind to the unfortunate reality that Putin is popular in Russia, and the Communists and nationalists are the opposition, and somewhere down below are the liberals the West likes, who are seen as having failed miserably, fairly or not. It's unfortunate, but it's a lot like the U.S. under Nixon -- he was a dirty crook and cheated in the elections but he didn't actually need to do this, especially not in 1972. And given the absolute disasters of the Yeltsin years, the insane failures of Harvard-planned shock therapy, the creation of the oligarchs and mafias through privatization, the assault on the parliament in 1993, the first Chechen war, the meltdowns of the late 1990s -- it's not so surprising that you should see this kind of reaction and desire for a strongman. And they fall for a lot of authoritarian horrors, repression against gays, racial minorities, journalists, artists. But smart, liberal Western writers think Pussy Riot and Kasparov are a serious opposition, when these are an unwelcome joke to most Russians, like the hippies were to the U.S. majority in 1972. And as long as what they're offering is a different oligarchy (Pussy Riot endorsed Khodorkovsky, for fuck's sake), it's not like they are in any way a progressive alternative. It sucks.

[happyslug]

65. I hate to say this the Communists of Today's Russia are the most progressive group

They want Russia to improve, they want to crack down on the Oligarchs, they have plans to help the poor of Russia. Thus they continue to win 1/3 of any vote. The Communists are to powerful for Putin to Crush, but not powerful enough to overthrow him. If Putin does anything that harms Russia badly, the Communists will walk into power, thus Putin is careful. Thus Kissinger's comment that the Putin's actions in the Ukraine is one of reaction not action. Putin did not want the overthrow of the Government, and I do not think he would have done anything until the New Government started to make noise about kicking the Russians out of the Crimea AND actually started to do things that indicated they were serious. Putin then reacted by sending in Russian Units to Support the Russian units in the Crimea, and when the Crimea government indicated they disliked what was happening in Kiev, supported they call to join Russia. Putin also "gave" the Crimea Government some help by telling them where they could get volunteers to help them. AND by sending those Volunteers to where the Crimea Government could tell them what to do.

Just a Comment, Russia is not ready for a "Revolution" and if it was, the US would be opposing it for the US does not want the Communists back in control of Russia.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

85. I can't speak for the author's ultimate opinion...

...regarding whether Putin himself could be vulnerable in his own country. He does appear to be quite popular in Russia, and I don't doubt that a good amount of that popularity is indeed legit.

Mainly, I just wanted to bring forward that purported quote, which when one considers Putin's statements back in April regarding "Novorossiya" makes the accuracy of such a statement quite believable.

[bemildred]

14. Kerry, Lavrov agree Ukraine should not be 'pawn' in East-West power struggle

PARIS - Secretary of State John Kerry and his Russian counterpart agree they don't want Ukraine to be a "pawn" in a power struggle between East and West.

Kerry met with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov Thursday in Paris.

Kerry and Lavrov say Moscow and Washington agree that Ukraine should be a peaceful, stable and prosperous bridge between Russia and Europe. But they acknowledge difficulties in bringing the crisis to an end in the former Soviet republic.

http://www.canada.com/news/world/Kerry+Lavrov+agree+Ukraine+should+pawn+EastWest+power+struggle/9910316/story.html

[bemildred]

15. Lugansk residents granted humanitarian corridor to flee Ukraine

PRO-RUSSIAN activists organised a humanitarian corridor today for residents of Lugansk to cross into Russia to escape fighting in Ukraine.

Large sections of the Russian-Ukranian border lay wide open after Lugansk insurgents captured three government bases in a series of humiliating defeats for Kiev’s forces on Wednesday.

National Guard forces ran out of ammunition and had to flee their base near the city after hours of battle.

Anti-Kiev forces also seized a border guard headquarters on the city’s outskirts and forced guards out of another base in Sverdlovsk on the Russian border.

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-18b7-Lugansk-residents-granted-humanitarian-corridor-to-flee-Ukraine

[bemildred]

16. Russia Says Thousands Crossing Border to Flee Ukraine

MOSCOW--Russia's prime minister said Thursday that a military operation in eastern Ukraine to subdue a separatist rebellion has forced thousands of civilians to flee across the border into Russia, but Ukrainian authorities responded that there was no evidence of a refugee crisis.

Russia has increasingly painted the fighting as a humanitarian issue, proposing a resolution before the United Nations Security Council this week calling for the creation of corridors allowing noncombatants to leave and insisting that Ukraine cease what it calls military operations against civilians. The West has reacted coolly to Russia's U.N. proposal and has been skeptical of previous claims about asylum seekers.

Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev described a flow of children and families who want to stay in Russia, saying four thousand people had already requested asylum. He ordered government support for regions receiving refugees, which are "in a very difficult situation."

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/russia-says-thousands-crossing-border-to-flee-ukraine-20140605-00742

[dipsydoodle]

24. If nothing else Russia's got a better National Anthem anyway.

[bemildred]

26. I'm just glad they are letting them out.

if you're going to have a war, at least let the bystanders leave.

[dipsydoodle]

31. Couldn't agree more

.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

37. I always found it odd that the RF would re-adopt an old Soviet/Stalinist relic as its anthem.

But that was Putin's call.

[dipsydoodle]

43. Was because it because its a hymn

and generally accepted by Russia's population ?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

45. I dunno.

Perhaps, although it's just comes off as bizarre to me that people would want back an anthem of a dead nation that was commissioned by one of the most brutal men of the 20th Century.

I mean, you don't see Germans pining for Horst Wessel Lied these days.

[JackRiddler]

60. That you would make this comparison speaks volumes.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

83. Speaks volumes to what?

That it's rather creepy that the Russians chose to take out of mothballs the tune to an homage to Stalin and adapted it as their national anthem (after previously already having a different anthem of their own)? Sorry, that's how I see it.

The Soviet Union--especially under Stalin--was a bloody, brutal, authoritarian bastard of a nation with little respect for human rights and there's no need to look fondly back upon it at all. It was nothing more than an attempt to reboot the failing Russian Empire with a half-assed attempt to use Marxist ideology as a guise to sell it to the people.

[happyslug]

66. You prefer the first words of the tune we call the Star Spangle Banner?

To Anacreon in Heav'n, where he sat in full glee,
A few Sons of Harmony sent a petition
That he their Inspirer and Patron would be;
When this answer arrived from the Jolly Old Grecian:
"Voice, Fiddle, and Flute, no longer be mute,
I'll lend you my name and inspire you to boot,

Refrain
And besides I'll instruct you, like me, to intwine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."

The news through Olympus immediately flew;
When Old Thunder pretended to give himself airs.
"If these Mortals are suffered their scheme to pursue,
The devil a Goddess will stay above stairs.
Hark, already they cry, in transports of joy,
Away to the Sons of Anacreon we'll fly,

Refrain
And there with good fellows, we'll learn to intwine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus' Vine."

"The Yellow-Haired God and his nine fusty Maids
From Helicon's banks will incontinent flee,
Idalia will boast but of tenantless shades,
And the bi-forked hill a mere desert will be.
My Thunder no fear on't, shall soon do its errand,
And dam'me I'll swing the Ringleaders I warrant.

Refrain
I'll trim the young dogs, for thus daring to twine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."

Apollo rose up, and said, "Pry'thee ne'er quarrel,
Good King of the Gods, with My Vot'ries below:
Your Thunder is useless" — then showing his laurel,
Cry'd "Sic evitabile fulmen,[7] you know!
Then over each head, my laurels I'll spread,
So my sons from your Crackers no mischief shall dread,

Refrain
Whilst, snug in their clubroom, they jovially twine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."

Next Momus got up with his risible Phiz
And swore with Apollo he'd cheerfully join —
"The full tide of Harmony still shall be his,
But the Song, and the Catch, and the Laugh shall be mine.
Then, Jove, be not jealous of these honest fellows."
Cry'd Jove, "We relent, since the truth you now tell us;

Refrain
And swear by Old Styx, that they long shall intwine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."

Ye Sons of Anacreon, then join hand in hand;
Preserve Unanimity, Friendship, and Love!
'Tis yours to support what's so happily plann'd;
You've the sanction of Gods, and the Fiat of Jove.
While thus we agree, our toast let it be:
"May our Club flourish happy, united, and free!

Refrain
And long may the Sons of Anacreon intwine
The Myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's Vine."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Anacreon_in_Heaven

[JackRiddler]

72. So much better!

Ha, thanks. I just went and found this on youtube. Quite good. Goes better than the SSB.

Now Mr. European History above, with the comparison of the Russian anthem to the Horst Wessel Lied (!!!), seems to have missed that the latter was a Nazi party song, and was never a national anthem -- unlike the Soviet national anthem which was repurposed into the new Russian anthem.

What's funny is that the Germans today sing the SAME Deutschlandlied that the Nazis also did, as this anthem dates back to the 1848 revolution. They now omit the "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles" stanza (which was originally meant as nation above religion or royalty, and acquired its warlike significance under the Nazis).

But it's the same goddamn song! Germans sing the same national anthem as under the Nazis (same lyrics, just without the third stanza), just as Russians sing the same one as under the Soviet Union (different lyrics!).

[jakeXT]

79. I was surprised by "Die Wacht am Rhein" in Casablanca, but it seems it was a copyright issue

Originally the "Horst-Wessel-Lied" was slated to be used in the scene as the German song, since it was at that time part of the de facto national anthem of Nazi Germany. However, the producers realized that the "Horst Wessel Lied" was copyrighted. While that would not have been a problem in the United States, the UK or other Allied nations, a copyright dispute would have hurt or prevented showings in neutral nations which still honored German copyrights. Thus, the producers of Casablanca chose "Die Wacht am Rhein".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Wacht_am_Rhein

[Tommy_Carcetti]

84. You completely missed my point.

That Horst Wessel Lied wasn't the official national anthem of Germany isn't the point. The point is, the song was a relic of that era with a very specific context to it. Just like how the Confederate Battle Flag wasn't actually the national flag of the Confederate States of America but it still brings with it a very specific context.

Now, as it relates to the Soviet State Anthem that has since been adapted into the Russian National Anthem, the music to that was commissioned by Stalin and written for Stalin. I hope we can all agree that Stalin-- along with Hitler, Pol Pot and maybe one or two others--was one of the worst persons of the 20th Century. Why Russia would want to look back fondly upon old Stalinist relics, I have no idea. Unlike--for the example you provided--Deutschlandlied, the Russians can't say the song existed before Stalin. Different lyrics or not, the repackaging of the song despite the fact the Russian Federation already had another national anthem is disturbing.

[JackRiddler]

89. Germans still singing the Deutschlandlied.

No one thinks anything of it. Same song, different lyrics (actually the same lyrics but with the most offending stanza omitted). Just like the Russians did with the Soviet anthem (except they use different lyrics). Your comparison is telling because of the resort instead to the Horst Wessel Lied. Why not compare to the Deutschlandlied, since that's the obvious analogue? Both countries still have the same anthem as in the 1930s! I suppose you want to equate the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany, but imply Russia is continuous with the USSR but Germany is not continuous with the Nazi Reich, and also not equate present-day Russia with present-day Germany. Pretzels! How about you just give up trying to use the anthem as evidence of something so horrible? People grew up with the song and they like it. New lyrics. (As far as I'm concerned: all anthems, all flags = nationalist bullshit.)

And since people are generally prone to false dichotomies (you have shown this a few times with your knee jerk anti-communism among other things), they saw the sorry shape of Russian life in the 1990s under the Western-oriented plunder oligarchs around Yeltsin, with constant crises and impoverishment and lifespans literally shrinking, and they got nostalgic for a strong man and at least some aspects of the Soviet days. Sucks. You'd wish the West had learned the lesson of what happens when you apply extreme capitalism and punitive debt/austerity regimes on subjugated territories, but they're hot to repeat it in Ukraine.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

91. The Deutschlandlied was written long before that country's darkest era.

On the other hand, the music to the current Russian National Anthem was written specifically for Stalin at the height of his power. To revert back to it (with a switching around of the lyrics to make it more palatable) is bizarre.

And the Russian Federation isn't continuous with the USSR (just as modern day Germany isn't continuous with the Third Reich). That's exactly my point. So why all the Soviet nostalgia? You have the city of Volgograd that now goes back to calling itself Stalingrad a few days out of the year, and from the news today apparently Putin has come out and said he'd support a referendum asking whether the name should be reverted permanently.

Lest you think I'm just being hard on the Russians for this because I'm just a mean old guy, there actually is a relevant basis for my concerns here. When you have Putin namedropping Novorossiya or bemoaning the loss of the Soviet Union, the imperial mindset that existed both in the Soviet Union and in the Russian Empire before it begins to seep back into the forefront. And going back to my original point, it makes it seem that Putin's interest in at least Eastern Ukraine is a lot more vested, far beyond simply wanting to see a cessation in hostilities. Thus, there is certainly a basis where Russia would actively be involved in seeking to aid the separatists in their efforts if the end game is those regions petitioning to join Russia (and that is the stated endgame of the separatists).

Also, you are aware that the Soviet Union was far, far more about old school Russian imperialism than it was about promoting Marxist economic ideology. Back in the early 20th Century, the Tsardom began to disintegrate and Russia's status as an empire seemed to be coming to an end. Knowing that the people were no longer interested in belonging to a monarchy, Russian nationalists struggled to find some sort of way to reboot the old empire in a new form to ensure its survival. Ultimately, the prevailing mechanism was to use Marxist economic theory to appeal to populists. However, as much as they pretended the Soviet Union to all be about communism and Marxism, Moscow really just needed a way to stay at the top of its game, and communism/Marxism was just a means to an end. Eventually, the charade fell apart, and the countries that had been subjugated under both the Russian Empire and the USSR for centuries finally were able to break free of Moscow's chokehold. You would think that would be a good thing, but a strain of Russian nationalism echoed here by Putin bemoans this fact greatly. And while it might be tempting for western Marxists to think of the USSR as some sort realization of Marx in the real world, it was actually all a bloody, brutal sham that had little to do with Marx and everything to do with Russia. A Potemkin village of sorts, if you pardon the pun. The Soviet Union ought not to be emulated or celebrated in any respect, especially at its very worst under Stalin.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

82. Over the Soviet/Russian anthem? Absolutely.

If one were to consider both anthems in respect to their original lyrics, the Star Spangled Banner would evoke images of people in a pub singing a silly drinking song. Whereas the Russian anthem would evoke images of, well, Stalin.

The Russian national anthem is essentially the Mississippi state flag of national anthems.

Now, do I prefer the original lyrics of the SSB over Francis Scott Key's? No, but I'll preface it with the fact that my affinity for the Star Spangled Banner is strictly based on local and not national pride. As a song itself, the lyrics are somewhat clunky and it's a bit symbol obsessed. But as a native Marylander, we do take pride that the lyrics were written in Maryland. And any good fan of the Baltimore Orioles revels in the chance to shout "O!" when it comes to the part, "O say does that Star Spangled Banner yet wave....".

[JackRiddler]

62. So which story is more likely?

Everyone agrees there is deadly fighting involving armed factions as well as military-police regulars in eastern Ukraine, with casualties probably at 1,000 at this point, shelling, tanks, attack helicopters, RPGs, etc.

Like it or not, Moscow is claiming refugees are fleeing across the border.

And Kiev is claiming they're not.

One of them is lying. Which story is more plausible on its face?

[bemildred]

67. I have no doubt people are fleeing. nt

[JackRiddler]

68. So then this story is a case...

wherein the Russian government is almost certainly telling the truth (and they will be able to demonstrate this with pictures soon), while the Kiev government is clearly lying. These are based on assessments of self-interest, not on who's right or wrong in the conflict.

[bemildred]

70. They are all spewing bullshit, if that's your point.

I don't think much of the Kiev government, no. They went right to military force, in a situation where that was a disastrous, stupid thing to do. Instead of trying to win the East over they alienated them. I can't tell how much of that is bad advice, and how much a failure to understand the situation, and how much native belligerence and stupidity, but it is bad any way you slice it.

I've been worried about Ukraine since November when I found out we were meddling there. I feel like a prophet, but I am not a happy prophet.

I am very annoyed, I may have to take some time off, a lot of people are going to suffer and die and it was not necessary.

[bemildred]

17. Harper, Obama opposed to G7 leaders meeting with Putin

Prime Minister Stephen Harper joined U.S. President Barack Obama in opposing the plans of some G7 leaders to meet Russian President Vladimir Putin this week, The Canadian Press has learned.

During two days of closed-door G7 leaders' talks in Brussels, Harper and Obama were firmly aligned against the plans of several fellow leaders to sit down with Putin, a source close to the talks said Thursday.

Harper has consistently urged other countries and Canadian businesses to actively isolate Putin on the world stage.

France invited Putin to Friday's commemoration in Normandy to mark the 70th anniversary of the D-Day invasion, which began the liberation of Europe from the Nazis.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/harper-obama-opposed-to-g7-leaders-meeting-with-putin-1.2666102?cmp=rss

[dipsydoodle]

19. Tough.

.

[bemildred]

20. Harper says Putin should be at D-Day ceremonies but also grasp strong message

http://www.citynews.ca/2014/06/05/harper-says-putin-should-be-at-d-day-ceremonies-but-also-grasp-strong-message/

[jakeXT]

25. France is going to train Russian sailors in about two weeks

PARIS—France is preparing to train hundreds of Russian seamen to operate a powerful French-made warship this month, defying calls from the U.S. and other Western allies to keep the vessel out of the Kremlin's hands, people familiar with the matter say.

More than 400 Russian sailors are scheduled to arrive on June 22 in the French Atlantic port of Saint-Nazaire to undergo months of instruction before piloting the first of two Mistral-class carriers back to Russia in the fall, said one of these people.

The training is a pivotal step that deepens France's commitment to fulfilling the $1.6 billion contract to supply Russia with the carriers, which are built to launch amphibious attacks.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/france-moves-to-defy-allies-on-sale-of-warship-to-russia-1401877000

[bemildred]

28. Yes.

The morals and ethics of a mink in heat.

[MisterP]

46. reminds me of the penny-dreadful crap that helped whip up WWI

where the Tories said the French and Russians would raise the Double Eagle over Manchester Town Hall, pleading women "mowed down brutally by gleaming Cossack shushkas"

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/37470/37470-h/37470-h.htm
http://sinclairthebudgie.deviantart.com/art/England-Invaded-2-invasion-literature-before-WWI-450546506

[jakeXT]

50. Selling papers and selling war ?

Lord Northcliffe in fact hired Le Queux to find the likeliest invasion routes, but to boost Daily Mail sales the Uhlans were sent into every town from Sheffield to Chelmsford--so as to increase circulation numbers in each one. The invaders always sweep through 3-5 counties in one go, and zip around within each county by the strangest ways;

http://books.google.com/books/about/Politicians_the_Press_Propaganda.html?id=gdAGfACAtJQC&redir_esc=y

[MisterP]

57. for the 1895 campaign he showed Portsmouth's town hall heaped with the dead

didn't win, though--so it turns out that 2010s America is MORE naive than Victorian Britain, somehow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Harmsworth,_1st_Viscount_Northcliffe

[JackRiddler]

52. Harper is totally the ally you want.

[bemildred]

18. Left Out of G7, Putin Wishes World Leaders 'Bon Appetit'

ST. PETERSBURG, RUSSIA — Vladimir Putin, shut out of a G7 summit over Russia's role in Ukraine, parried the snub on Thursday with a terse message for world leaders who lunched without him in Brussels on Thursday: “Bon appetit.”

Putin should have been hosting the heads of leading industrialized nations at a summit of the G8 in the Black Sea resort of Sochi this week.

But the G7 nations scotched those plans in protest against Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region in March, and the leaders of the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Canada, Italy and Japan held their summit without him.

Asked how he felt about this, Putin barely broke stride to spit out an answer to Kremlin reporters who had been advised to await him at the bottom of a sweeping staircase at the Russian Geographical Society after a meeting on Arctic policy.

http://www.voanews.com/content/reu-left-out-of-g7-summit-putin-wishes-world-leaders-bon-appetit/1930387.html

[dipsydoodle]

22. Bit like saying

[bemildred]

23. You cannot threaten people with things they are not afraid of. nt

[bemildred]

21. Obama, Cameron give Putin a month to meet Ukraine conditions, or face further sanctions

President Barack Obama and British Prime Minister David Cameron laid down new markers for Russia on Thursday, giving Moscow a month to meet their conditions in Ukraine or face further sanctions.

The new thresholds for action were spelled out at a joint press conference, following a Group of Seven world leader summit that was rearranged to exclude Russian President Vladimir Putin after his aggressive moves in Ukraine. The United States and Europe also have imposed economic sanctions in response.

To avoid even harsher sanctions, Cameron said, Putin must meet three conditions: Recognize Petro Poroshenko's election as the new leader in Kiev; stop arms from crossing the border; and cease support for pro-Russian separatist groups concentrated in eastern Ukraine.

"If these things don't happen, then sectoral sanctions will follow," Cameron said, standing before a row of United States and British flags. "The next month will be vital in judging if President Putin has taken these steps. And that is what I will urge President Putin to do when I meet him later today."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.597235

[jakeXT]

33. get away from the border.....make sure no arms cross the border /nt

[bemildred]

39. Fat chance. Can we close our border? nt

[bemildred]

34. Who are the masked mercenaries in Ukraine?

---

Not a united force

At this stage it is still hard to determine who is fighting on the separatists' side, and the number of insurgents in Donbass is also unclear. Some estimates put it at several thousand. Some of the fighters have made their way into the country crossing the porous border with Russia, which stretches for hundreds of kilometers.

The separatists do not have a homogenous command structure. The Vostok battalion, for example, is under the command of Alexander Khodakovsky, a former employee of the Ukrainian security agency. This is why some experts doubt that the battalion has anything to do with the Chechen squad of the same name. According to Oleg Orlov, head of Russian human rights organization Memorial, the group is only called Vostok because it is operating in eastern Ukraine. He pointed out that the original Vostok battalion was dissolved in 2008.

Orlov recently returned from a trip to Donbass. He said he did not see any Chechens among the pro-Russian fighters. "But there are men there from the Caucasus and Russia who make no secret of their nationality," he added.

Orlov said the people in eastern Ukraine would perceive North and South Ossetians as Chechens. "For most of them, bearded Caucasians are automatically Chechens," he explained.

http://www.dw.de/who-are-the-masked-mercenaries-in-ukraine/a-17686984?maca=en-rss-en-world-4025-rdf

[dipsydoodle]

55. Ingushetia leader: There are Ingush volunteers among Luhansk, Donetsk militants

There are Ingush volunteers among the unlawful armed groups fighting in Luhansk and Donetsk in east Ukraine, Ingushetia leader Yunus-Bek Yevkurov told Interfax-Ukraine

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ingushetia-leader-there-ae-ingush-volunteers-among-luhansk-donetsk-militants-2-350797.html

Volunteers.

[bemildred]

59. Yep. Volunteers. nt

[dipsydoodle]

76. Closest analogy that comes to mind

is the International Brigades who fought for the Republic during the Spanish Civil War.

Many non-Spaniards, often affiliated with radical communist or socialist entities, joined the International Brigades, believing that the Spanish Republic was a front line in the war against fascism. The units represented the largest foreign contingent of those fighting for the Republicans. Roughly 40,000 foreign nationals fought with the Brigades, though no more than 18,000 were entered into the conflict at any given time. They claimed to represent 53 nations.[112]

Significant numbers of volunteers originated in France (10,000), Germany and Austria (5,000), and Italy (3,350). More than 1,000 each came from the Soviet Union, the United States, the United Kingdom, Poland, Yugoslavia, Hungary, and Canada.[112] The Thälmann Battalion, a group of Germans, and the Garibaldi Battalion, a group of Italians, distinguished their units during the Siege of Madrid. Americans fought in units such as the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, while Canadians joined the Mackenzie-Papineau Battalion.[113]

Over 500 Romanians fought on the Republican side, including Romanian Communist Party members Petre Borilă and Valter Roman.[114] About 80 volunteers from Ireland formed the Connolly Column, which was immortalized by Irish folk singer Christy Moore in the song "Viva la Quinta Brigada." Some Chinese joined the Brigades, and the majority of them eventually returned to China, while some went to prison or French refugee camps, and a handful remained in Spain.[115]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War

[bemildred]

77. There are people who like war, war groupies.

There are various reasons for it, but it always happens. In a place like Ukraine, with lots of ethnic/religious divisions, and lots of ex-military, when you crank the war fever up, you get lots of volunteers. Especially in the beginning, before it gets really ugly. It is not a rule, I have no theory of it, but it works great as an indicator of what to expect.

[bemildred]

35. Eastern Ukraine Has Been a Mafia State for Years. Can Kiev Break the Cycle of Violence?

Separatists? Fascists? Disguised Russian special forces? Theories have multiplied to explain who exactly the armed men who have wrested control of parts of Donetsk, Luhansk (Lugansk in Russian), and other areas of eastern Ukraine from the Ukrainian state, cutting its residents off also from participation in the recent presidential elections. Very likely, martial law will follow in the region upon completion of the transfer of presidential powers to Ukraine’s newly elected leader, Petro Poroshenko. The separatist forces have clearly exposed the limits of Kiev’s capacity to govern, and in so doing they have acted in accordance with Russian state interests and swelled the waves of anti-state violence presently engulfing eastern and southern Ukraine.

But these facts alone do not mean that those armed men are simply Russian agents, or even Russian-trained militias. Instead, alongside Russia, the forces of the “Donetsk People’s Republic” and the “Lugansk People’s Republic” serve first and foremost what we call a mafia state.

The idea itself is not new. It gained currency particularly in reference to Russia in the wake of WikiLeaks, which disclosed the details of a January 2010 briefing by Spanish prosecutor José Grinda González—one of Europe’s top experts on organized crime—analyzing Russia as a “virtual mafia state.” One year later, British journalist Luke Harding published Mafia State, a memoir detailing the intimidation and Cold War spy-game-like scare tactics that he faced at the hands of Russian secret services while he was The Guardian’s bureau chief in Moscow, an assignment that ended when Russia denied him re-entry in 2011. In recent months, commentators have increasingly—and rightly—pointed out the need to think about Ukraine not just as a state, but also as the sum of its regions. Here the “mafia state” idea can help us to understand the events of recent months, especially the perverse phenomenon of the separatist militia-driven “people’s republics” of the Donbas. Even allowing for the distinctiveness of Soviet legal culture, “rule of law” as such was a myth in the Donbas even before the Soviet collapse. Combine might-trumps-right with the long-standing culture of anomie and graft classically described by Aleksandr Zinoviev as Homo Sovieticus, and you can see that the mafias and “people’s republics” of Donetsk and Luhansk have been decades in the making.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118010/eastern-ukraine-mafia-state-can-kiev-impose-rule-law

[bemildred]

36. Concerns about possible escalation of Ukraine crisis have risen -ECB

(Reuters) - The European Central Bank said on Thursday concerns have risen about a possible escalation of tensions between Ukraine and Russia which could affect the euro zone via trade, financial links and oil prices.

Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region in March was met with protests from Western nations, which have imposed visa bans and asset freezes on officials, lawmakers and companies close to Russian President Vladimir Putin.

At the G7 summit that ended on Thursday and was held without Russia, leaders threatened to impose harder-hitting sanctions if Moscow does not help restore stability to eastern Ukraine.

The ECB published its staff macroeconomic projections, drawn up by staff from all euro zone central banks, on Thursday. An article in the publication said hard data for the euro zone appeared to be largely unaffected by events in Ukraine, but that there was "anecdotal evidence of possibly increased uncertainty related to the crisis".

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/05/ecb-ukraine-idUSL6N0OM59820140605

[Sunlei]

38. They sent all those 'fighters' From Ukraine back to Russia. Why did russia accept their dead?.

red cross and “200”— Soviet-era military code for their dead.

?resize=1000

[bemildred]

40. Cameron and Putin clash in tense face-to-face talks in Paris

Yap yap yap.

David Cameron and Russian President Vladimir Putin held face-to-face talks today for the first time since the crisis in the Ukraine.

The Prime Minister met Mr Putin in Paris at the Charles De Gaulle Airport ahead of tomorrow's D-Day commemorations in Normandy. It came after Mr Putin was warned that he has one month to end Russia's destabilisation of Ukraine or facing crippling economic sanctions.

After the meeting Mr Cameron said he gave the Russian President a 'very clear and firm set of messages' during the talks and said the current situation is 'not acceptable'.

The Prime Minister said: 'This was a meeting with a very clear and firm set of messages, which is that there is an opportunity for a successful, peaceful and stable Ukraine especially now there's been a presidential election.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2649904/Cameron-Putin-clash-tense-face-face-talks-Paris-PM-Western-leader-meet-Russian-President-start-crisis-Ukraine.html

[jakeXT]

44. Will it be more than one armed battle group ?

Britain offers tanks and 1,000 troops for Nato show of strength against Putin

Britain has offered Nato an armoured battle group including up to 25 tanks to join exercises in Poland as a show of force against Vladimir Putin.

The deployment would see as many as 1,000 British soldiers join Nato forces for war games across the border from Ukraine later this year.

The offer was disclosed as David Cameron prepares to meet the Russian president on Thursday and wrangling over the Ukraine crisis seems certain to dominate world leaders’ visits to the D-Day anniversary events.

The diplomatic storm over Ukraine continued as Barack Obama condemned Moscow’s “dark tactics”, while Mr Putin hit back against American aggression.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/10876222/Britain-offers-tanks-and-1000-troops-for-Nato-show-of-strength-against-Putin.html

[bemildred]

47. I see a bunch of ignorant politicians posturing ineffectively like buffoons.

Worrying about how things look and their careers. Meanwhile Ukraine is descending into civil war.

[bemildred]

48. Gwynne Dyer: The irony of Vladimir Putin's visit to Normandy

The presence of President Vladimir Putin on the Normandy beaches on the 70th anniversary of the D-Day landings was planned long before the current conflict over Ukraine, but it is a useful reminder of the fact that Russia is not some Asiatic tyranny on Europe’s eastern borders. It is a European country that has played a major role in the continent’s affairs for centuries.

Not only were the Russians on the same side as the “Western” allies in the Second World War. They did most of the heavy lifting in the war against Nazi Germany, and they paid by far the highest price.

While 850,000 American, British and Canadian troops were landing on the French coast in June 1944, 6 million soldiers of the Soviet army were fighting massive battles with the German army in eastern Europe. The land war on the Eastern Front was already three years old, and by June of 1944 the Russians had won: the Germans had already begun the long retreat that ended above Hitler’s bunker in Berlin eleven months later.

The price the Russians paid for their victory over Nazi Germany was huge: at least 11 million military dead (compared to fewer than 1 million dead for the Western allies). No other country in history has lost so many soldiers, but in the end it was the Red Army that destroyed Hitler’s Wehrmacht: 80 percent of Germany’s 6 million military dead were killed on the Eastern Front.

http://www.straight.com/news/658876/gwynne-dyer-irony-vladimir-putins-visit-normandy

[Xolodno]

54. Yeap....

Putin already stated he would meet Poroshenko and Merkel to discuss the situation.

....and you have the other politicians suddenly "making a demand" after the fact...that he meet with Poroshenko...guess to save face or something.

Poroshenko is pragmatic and will shift to where the wind is blowing. He'll give what Putin wants (a more autonomous east that will insure Ukraine will never join NATO) while giving those in the west of the nation, what they want...IMF loans and a generation or two of indebtedness....whoops, I mean "a path that will eventually result in the Ukraine joining the EU of the stature....such as its stellar member Greece".

I wouldn't be surprised in a few years if the economic costs are so high, that the populace finally says uncle...and a deal is struck to where Ukraine gives formal recognition that Crimea is Russian territory in exchange for economic help or lower energy costs, etc.

If Poroshenko doesn't....Ukraine will burn (along with his economic interests), I'm sure Putin has the assets he needs deployed. They'll be so much destruction and loss of life due to the civil war...the costs of rebuilding and national reconciliation would be prohibitive. And then you get either a dividing up like Yugoslavia...or a partition.

[bemildred]

58. And that is the "good" outcome.

Poroshenko does seem more pragmatic than the hysterical fools in Kiev, one thinks of Baghdad Bob, but I'm waiting to see what he does.

[bemildred]

41. Lavrov: Normandy meetings participants should find ways to help settle Ukraine conflict

Russian President Vladimir Putin joins the leaders of France, Britain, the United States and Germany to mark the 70th anniversary on June 6 of the Normandy landings that opened the western front against Hitler's forces.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/lavrov-normandy-meetings-participants-should-find-ways-to-help-settle-ukraine-conflict-350804.html

[bemildred]

42. Germany's Merkel pledges to help new Ukraine leader, says country will need Russia's help too

BERLIN - Chancellor Angela Merkel says Germany stands ready to help Ukrainian President-elect Petro Poroshenko tackle the problems his country faces.

A pro-Russian insurgency in eastern Ukraine threatens to split the country, already struggling with corruption before the uprising that toppled Moscow-backed former President Viktor Yanukovych earlier this year.

Merkel said Thursday that Ukraine will need Russia's support as well. The chancellor has sought to keep lines of communication open with Russia even as the country is isolated by the West for its involvement in Ukraine.

Poroshenko told reporters in Berlin he hoped Moscow had understood that "the position of the Russian Federation is obviously harmful for both sides."

http://www.canada.com/news/world/Germanys+Merkel+pledges+help+Ukraine+leader+says+country+will+need/9910694/story.html

[bemildred]

51. Putin Forever? Russian President's Ratings Skyrocket Over Ukraine

Russian President Vladimir Putin is enjoying almost unprecedented job-approval ratings in his country.

And the only reason for this popularity surge, sociologists say, is Russia's tough stance on Ukraine.

"A fierce anti-Ukrainian campaign was launched," says leading sociologist Lev Gudkov, the head of Russia's independent Levada polling center. "Authorities have used the language of war, the language of the 'fight against fascism,' of mass consolidation and unification."

Despite Western anger at Russia's role in fomenting separatist unrest in Ukraine – including its dramatic annexation of Crimea -- Moscow's crusade against what it portrays as a neo-Nazi threat emanating from Kyiv is paying off at home.

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-putin-approval-ratings/25409183.html

[JackRiddler]

90. This explains it all.

For Putin, it would be politically damaging not to support the ethnic Russians of Ukraine at a time when ethnic Ukrainian fascists are in a Kiev government that is conducting a violent crackdown. It's up to the Kiev government to let the situation cool off. Sending attack helicopters isn't the way. Massacring protesters in Odessa was really a) barbaric & criminal and b) stupid!

It would be also be politically insane for Moscow to want to stoke the separatists, as this will cause a civil war, refugees, chaos, terrorism, etc., for no particular benefit to Russia as there will also be trade war, economic disruptions, difficulties in developing resources, etc. etc. Not to mention instability on a global scale.

[bemildred]

53. Topless feminist stabs wax Putin in France

The same day President Vladimir Putin was to arrive in France for D-Day anniversary events, radical feminist protest group Femen destroyed the Russian leader's statue in a Paris wax museum.

A topless member of the radical protest group Femen used a metal chisel to stab and bash in the face of Putin's statue in a famed Paris wax museum on Thursday.

The activist, who had 'Kill Putin' written on her bare chest, reportedly screamed "Putin is a dictator" while destroying the figure at the Grevin Wax Museum, French daily Le Parisien reported.

Police arrested the activist shortly after the attack, which happened near statues of US President Barack Obama and recently abdicated Spanish King Juan Carlos, both of which escaped without a scratch.

http://www.thelocal.fr/20140605/femen-stab-beat-putin-wax-statute-in-france

[JackRiddler]

69. Femen stunts highly questionable...

Ukraine is not a Brothel, directed by 28-year-old Australian film-maker Kitty Green, has “outed” Victor Svyatski as the mastermind behind the group. Mr Syvatski is known as a “consultant” to the movement. According to the Femen website, he was badly beaten up by the secret services in Ukraine earlier this summer because of his activities on behalf of the group. However, Ms Green reveals that Svyatski is not simply a supporter of Femen but its founder and éminence grise. “It’s his movement and he hand-picked the girls. He hand-picked the prettiest girls because the prettiest girls sell more papers. The prettiest girls get on the front page... that became their image, that became the way they sold the brand,” she says.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/the-man-who-made-femen-new-film-outs-victor-svyatski-as-the-mastermind-behind-the-protest-group-and-its-breastbaring-stunts-8797042.html

The fast-food feminism of the topless Femen

Blond young women stripping off their shirts to protest for...women’s rights. Le Monde Diplomatique’s Mona Chollet reviews the purportedly feminist protest group called the Femen, finding little evidence of feminism and a budding affinity with France’s anti-Muslim right. Amina Tyler, Alia el Mahdi and other young Femen of the Arab Spring would do well to have a second look at their Ukrainian mentors, she suggests.

Exclusive April 2013, by Mona Chollet

SNIP

The permanent reduction of women to their bodies and their sexuality, the negation of their intellectual abilities, the social invisibility of women who cannot please the male gaze: these are keystones of the patriarchal system. It is rather stupefying that a purportedly feminist ’movement’ — there are no more than twenty Femen in France — cannot see this. «We live under male domination,» Inna Shevchenko told The Guardian, «and nudity is the only way to provoke them, to get their attention.» So, a feminism that bends to male domination: well, it had to be invented.

Shevchenko not only accepts this order of things, she approves of it: «Classic feminism is a sick old woman, it does not work anymore. It is stuck in the world of conferences and books.» She is right: death to sick old women, they are not even pleasing to look at! And books? They are full of words that cause headaches.

In his excellent book on the use of bodies in politics, Claude Guillon said of Shevchenko’s sick old woman: «Even the most charitable of readers would say that Shevchenko’s statement expresses the presumption and the cruelty of youth. But we should also add: the greatness of its imbecility! The image of feminists as old ladies, cut off from the rest of the world — and if Inna read books she might have known this — is an abiding anti-feminist cliche. A pity to see it taken up by an activist who pretends to be renewing feminism.» More recently, the group’s members in France resigned themselves to publishing a book, of interviews. «In France, you have to publish something in order to be taken seriously,» sighs one of the Femen in an interview in Liberation. Oh, the misery.

[bemildred]

71. I just thought it fit in with the general tone of the discussion. nt

[JackRiddler]

73. What bothers is the "feminist" designation.

It's a broad philosophical tradition and shouldn't be so easily hijacked. (Imagine, "Topless liberal..." or "Topless Communist..." that would be a NY Post style headline.)

[bemildred]

74. OK. nt

[jakeXT]

78. Just ask our group here at DU what they think about "femen" being run by a man using women.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=25392

[yurbud]

56. so now it's wrong to help separatists a government thinks will support their interests?

Does our policy change from day to day, or do we have different sets of rules for us and them?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

81. Call me when Syria or Libya wants to be aborbed into the United States. nt

[yurbud]

92. .they might have chosen that if they knew the other choice was Somalia like chaos

[bemildred]

75. Ukraine closes border posts after night assaults

DOLZHANSKY: Ukraine said Thursday it had abandoned three checkpoints on the Russian border after a series of night-time attacks by separatists, and AFP reporters on the scene said at least one had been taken over by the militants.

The decision to leave the border posts came as the government vowed to beef up its security presence to counter pro-Russian rebels amid reports of continued fighting in the country’s east.

The three checkpoints, all in the volatile Lugansk region, were targeted in attacks by pro-Russian rebels overnight Wednesday to Thursday, the border guards said in a statement.

“After an exchange of fire, the threat to the lives of people crossing the border prompted the evacuation of civilians and border guards at the checkpoints,” the statement said.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/582426

[Sunlei]

80. There are also those phone calls from well dressed and armed people who took over-

Ukraine's Gov. buildings..then cell-phoned someone back in the motherland and asked for reinforcements and supplies.

pretty darn obvious they were not locals.