Russian TV sparks outrage with Ukraine child 'crucifixion' claim
Source: AFP/Yahoo
Moscow (AFP) - Russian state television has provoked a storm of criticism after it aired an uncorroborated report claiming that the Ukrainian army publicly nailed a three-year-old boy to a board in a former rebel stronghold.
Ukraine accused Russia of ratcheting up its propaganda war by airing an interview in which a woman gave graphic details of the alleged incident in the Ukrainian flashpoint city of Slavyansk, which neither AFP nor other media have been able to confirm.
Channel One television at the weekend broadcast footage of a woman who said she recently saw Ukrainian soldiers round up people in central Slavyansk, which the army took over this month after three months of clashes with separatists, and nail an insurgent's child to a notice board.
A spokeswoman for Ukraine's interior ministry, Natalya Stativko, on Monday slammed the report as "following in the footsteps of Goebbels," Nazi Germany's minister of propaganda.
Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/russian-tv-sparks-outrage-ukraine-child-crucifixion-claim-114839196.html
That's Russian state media for you.
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Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)
zeemike
(18,998 posts)But of course that was more believable...and we went to war over it...killed many thousands...spent trillions to avenge that...
But that was not Nazi propaganda though, because Saddam was a bad man, and if not true it could have been.
daleo
(21,317 posts)That's just a general policy, regardless of the source.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Putin will have to ban cell phones, don't think his people would be to happy about that kind of ban.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)I am NOT saying it is, but you are basically saying since this was reported by RT news it had to be false. Given the tensions in the Ukraine, I can NOT dismiss such an act out of hand.
On the other hand I do NOT believe it was the result of any policy of the Government of the Ukraine or its Army.
Similar actions have been done by US forces in the past (Read some of the reports of US Troops in 1969-1970 in Vietnam, and US papers reported some of the worse war atrocities of all times in the Philippines after the US took it from Spain in 1898, in the US effort to put down Forces that wanted Independence.
On atrocities in the Philippines:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War#Sideco_house_.28Emilio_Aguinaldo.27_seat_of_First_Philippine_Republic.29
http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/58/
Vietnam War Crimes Working Group files:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_Crimes_Working_Group_Files
Just a comment that such an atrocity may have occurred, you can NOT just dismiss it because you dislike it. On the other hand, the real issue is this something the Ukrainian government is tolerating or is it something outside the control of that government?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
?w=604happyslug
(14,779 posts)The issue is NOT if something like this occurred, but what controls is the Ukrainian Government using to contain its troops from doing such things? Patton issued an order during WWII, paraphrase "As you know rape will occur in this war, if you find one of your soldiers had rape someone, sent him to me for trial and execution". Patton was making the point that he would NOT tolerate rape or other war crimes and if an American Soldier under his command did so, that soldier would be punished.
Right now, we do not know what is the position of the Ukrainian Governments to the actions of its soldiers. The Government had refused to state it will investigate let alone punish war crimes done by its own soldiers. That as the point I was making, such an act COULD have been done. Similar acts have been done in previous wars. The issue is WHAT IS THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMENT ATTITUDE TO SUCH CRIMES? Right now, it seems to be ENDORSING such crimes by calling the people in revolts all types of names except that they are humans.
To that point, you bring up Aliens. I point out the US has had problems with war crimes, but at least the US does admit such things occur AND have adopted rules to at least minimize them. To that point, you dismiss it, as if I was discussing Aliens. No wonder I am staying out of most Ukraine threads, to many people who either support Russia or the Ukraine, without thinking and when someone brings up facts they do not like, they attack the facts they dislike.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)how is the Ukrainian government supposed to take a position on something that didn't happen?
Get back to me when you found out who threw those Kuwaiti babies out of their incubators.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)That is the point I was making. At present I have NOT seen ANYTHING that shows that the Ukrainian Government cares if War Crimes occur or not. This was a great opportunity for that Government to show where it stands, but simply saying it did not know of such an incident, but it will investigate. Nice and simple. You are NOT saying anyone is lying, or RT is doing propaganda, you say, if such a thing occurred, the person who did it will be punished. You can also claim you have no evidence of it occurring, but you will look into it.
That is how you handle such accusations, you agree that it is horrible and your troops did not do it, but also say you will look into it to make sure it did not occur and if it did, you will punish the offender.
People forget, the reason the Holocaust was unreported during WWII was that we knew the Nazi hated Jews, and had put them in Ghettos, but the nature of those Ghettos were NOT mentioned by the Nazis, who also kept quite about the Death Camps.
Reports of both the Ghettos and Death camps did leak to the Allies, but the Allies refused to address them do to the "Bouncing Belgium Babies" scandal of WWI. The Bouncing Belgium Babies was a British Propaganda claim as to what the Germans were doing in Belgium in WWI (i.e. throwing babies into the air and stabbing them with bayonets as they fell to the ground). These reports were found to be 100% false after WWI, so when the reports of the Holocaust came out staring in late 1942, the Allies just refused to believe them. Even when the Red Army took the first of the Death Camps, the reports of the Russians were rejected by the West as Russian Propaganda. It was only when Allied forces liberated the Concentration Camps themselves did they realize how true had been the reports. It quickly became clear that the camps the US and the Western Allies liberated had NOT been the Death Camps the Russians had taken.
Thus you had the two extremes within 25 years. A false propaganda claim (The Bouncing Belgium Babies) and the true reports of the Holocaust. How do you handle reports in a war, where you can NOT verify the facts? Do you dismiss them like the reports of the Holocaust, or give them full value like the Bouncing Belgium Babies?
The best way to handle it is say you can not verify the report (Which is what RT did) and if your army is the one being accused you denounce such acts as barbaric and say you will look into it. You just do not dismiss it like the Allies did with the Holocaust during WWII. You also do not embrace it like the West did with the Bouncing Belgium Babies of WWI. You say, if true, it is a crime and you will PUNISH the Offender. If false, you will denounce the person who made the claim.
It is a simple and direct response. You end up joining the accusers as saying such an act is a crime, but also point out so it lying about such a crime. Simple and elegant and what most countries have done since WWII. The US even did it during Vietnam (then when the US found out the accusations were true, just covered it up, for by then it was old news).
You just do not continue to claim that the people you are fighting are sub humans who should be killed no matter what. And you do NOT dismiss such claims as propaganda given that in this type of war such acts can and do occur and you have to make every effort to prevent such crimes by your own soldiers. The first step to prevent such crimes is to admit your soldiers can do so, and if they did so they must be punished. The Second step is SAYING such crimes can occur and if such an accusation is made, you will investigate it. You can also then attack people making false reports but you would have shown the world (and the other side) you have control over your soldiers and you will do all you can to prevent them from doing war crimes.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)one does not say "we'll look into that we share your outrage" every time enemy propaganda makes stuff up about one
One certainly may dismiss Russian state media--it's garbage.
When the story comes from a legitimate news source, then it should be treated as something worth considering.
reorg
(3,317 posts)Galina Pyshnyak – Eyewitness Account of Ukrainian Atrocities in Slavyansk (Part 2, subtitled in English)
English translation of transcript:
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/slavyansk-refugee-remembers-brutal-execution/
happyslug
(14,779 posts)As I said when this sub thread first started, I do NOT know if this is true or not, but if it is true, people need punished. On the other hand, if false the report should be label false and why it was found false published.
My concern is that the Ukrainian Government is taking the position its troops do not do war crimes. That absolute position in untenable for all armies have committed war crimes. The real issue is to punish those that do, so that the rest of the troops get the message such atrocities will NOT be tolerated. To punish someone, you need to investigate, and many of the stories of atrocities will be false or otherwise unprovable, but at least investigate, or at least SAY you will check out this story in case there is some truth to it.
Every time I read about someone denying a war crime occurred right after it is reported, it shows that the people in charge are more worried about covering up the war crime, then preventing them. That is my concern, not that this woman's story is true or false, but that this is a story that can be check out quickly and shown to be true or false AND IT HAS NOT BEEN. People have said no one else reported such a crime, but that is not the same as if no one else saw the crime. On the other hand the board where this was done on, can be located and visually inspected and then tested for blood. One to two day's work, given where this occur is now in the hands of the Government of the Ukraine.
The best way to prevent war crimes is to tell your troops you will INVESTIGATE such war crimes, and during the fighting do so when possible,
Now, you can not investigate every war crime report (you should try, but it is often impossible) but the ones that can be checked out quickly, as this one can be, should be checked out quickly and shown to be false (as many on this board think it is) or true (unlikely, but possible). My position is check it out before dismissing the accusation.
reorg
(3,317 posts)While the rebels may have reasons to overstate the threat of war crimes in an attempt to gain support from Russia, it seems clear that the central government not only threatens to terrorize the supporters of the "Donetsk People's Republic" ("we will kill dozens and hundreds of rebels for each of our soldiers who dies"
, but actually carries out this threat by bombing buildings and reportedly killing civilians.
She claimed it was in front of thousands of people. Yet not one photo, not one video.
Not one person in Slavyansk heard of it.
Galina Pyshnyak--using her married name--has Mr. Pyshnyak, a Berkut, as husband. He was a "fighter" for the DNR. Her cell phone, her Facebook, all, all have shown her address in Russia for a while. She wasn't in Slavyansk at the time.
And all four of her children are, apparently, alive.
But if you only watched Channel 1, you'd not know this. As of COB today there'd been no correction. In fact, only "dissident" media, by and large, have reported on it.
"Just a comment that such an atrocity may have occurred, you can NOT just dismiss it because you dislike it. On the other hand, the real issue is this something the Ukrainian government is tolerating or is it something outside the control of that government?"
I would point out that the blockquote is incoherent. The *real issue* is whether this incident is something that's "tolerated" or just out of the "control of that government"? I'd have thought that the first "real issue" is the truth of the proposition--you seem to be assuming as beyond doubt, after giving lipservice to the idea of questioning it, that it is true. If we assume that the thing is true, then yes, there is a real issue.
And that's not the Kievan government. It's why it's so easy to believe the worst of somebody because a state-run media agency has decided to broadbrush an entire ethnicity based on the attitudes (more than on the actions) of a few percentage points of the population. Well, I guess we do it based on a few seconds of phone call looking at hypotheticals, so why not? Domestic political points are worth a bunch of dead "ferners". It's the American way.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)My point was simple, Civilian Leadership MUST show they are in control of their Troops. One way is to say if their own troops commit a war crime, such soldiers will be punished. Thus you do not denounced this accusation (or admit that if actually occurred), you admit if it occurred it is a war crime and whoever did it should be punished AND that you will investigate that accusation.
Such a simple and direct answer will do several things:
First it will put your troops on notice that if they did anything like this, you will punish them,
Second it tells the other side you will look into such crimes and if true you will punish who did so (cuts out the need for the other side to do retaliation, and makes any such retaliation a war crime itself).
Third, if the report is False, you can site it as false once you have the evidence it is false.
Fourth, if true, you can cover it up (as the US did with its war crimes in Vietnam and the Philippines) OR bring the criminal who did it to trial, to show the world it is NOT your government's policy to commit war crimes.
Thus the real issue is NOT if this report is true or not, but how is the Government handling such reports? If the Government is doing nothing, it is showing support for such war crimes (even if the report is false), if it says it will look into it, it is telling the world that the Government will NOT tolerate war crimes for if evidence of such war crimes exists, they will find it and prosecute whoever did the war crime.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Hersh gave a speech last week to the ACLU making the charge that children were sodomized in front of women in the prison, and the Pentagon has tape of it. The speech was first reported in a New York Sun story last week, which was in turn posted on Jim Romenesko’s media blog, and now EdCone.com and other blogs are linking to the video. We transcribed the critical section here (it starts at about 1:31:00 into the ACLU video.) At the start of the transcript here, you can see how Hersh was struggling over what he should say:
http://www.salon.com/2004/07/15/hersh_7/
freshwest
(53,661 posts)happyslug
(14,779 posts)We have to many people on DU, who support one side or the other (more that support the Ukraine, but a few that supports Russia just as blindly). Like most Civil Wars, this war is in flux and people are complaining that one side or the other has a secret agenda.
My favorite right now is people complaining that Russia does not seal off its border with the Ukraine. My answer is, How? The border between the Ukraine and Russia is not a river, mountain, sea, lake or ocean, but a line drawn in the dirt. It is much like the border between Ohio and Indiana, a line drawn decades ago with working farms on both side of that line (and a line that is not fenced, except to keep livestock in some field on one side or the other of the border).
Russia to close off that border, would have to redo the Berlin Wall but not around a city but over 1300 miles of border.
The Berlin Wall was only 96 miles long:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall
Now the wall between East and West Germany was 810 miles long, but went through hilly terrain. It started with a restricted zone 3 miles from the border, where only the most loyal of Citizens could go. Then 1000 meters from the border was a Fence, that no one was alone over. This fence was guarded over was watch towers AND dogs were often run between that fence and the fence along the actual border, but these dogs were kept on a wire that kept them off the six foot wide and then 20 foot wide dirt paths. No grass were permitted to grow on those paths and groomed almost daily so that if anyone cross them, they would leave foot prints.
On top of this East Germany's border had been drawn in a manner so that it was a clean border. Tendency was to use ridges so much of the above was in any small valley behind the ridge. Concrete Walls were used in towns and cities, but rarely elsewhere.
That is a border, and even it failed to prevent crossings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_German_border#1967.E2.80.9389:_the_.22Modern_Frontier.22
Now lets look at the border of the Ukraine and Russia. First it is NOT in the hilly terrain of German but on the Russian Steppes. The Steppes is like the US Mid west from Western Ohio to the Dakotas, flat as a pancake. Thus no natural borders exists, no ridges to be used. The border is a line drawn in the dirt.
The border is 1426 miles long,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_border
For comparison the US - Mexico border is 1954 miles long:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico%E2%80%93United_States_border
Thus the US Mexico Border is 1/3 longer then the Ukraine-Russian border AND 1,255 of those miles is along the Rio Grande, which is a natural border, something that does NOT exist between Russia and the Ukraine. The rest of the US - Mexico border is mostly desert, not prime farm land as is the case with the Ukraine-Russian border. Thus you have something call "Cover" to hide in, i.e. what ever is planted on those farms with the Ukraine-Russian Border, something missing is most of the US - Mexico Border and the US still can NOT close its border.
Thus it is almost impossible to close the Russian-Ukrainian border, for the US-Mexican border while longer, is more of a natural border then the farms in both sides of the Russian-Ukrainian Border. Yet people are demanding that it be closed. My comment is HOW, given the nature of the border? Russia of today is NOT the Soviet Union of the 1960s, it is not the centralized totalitarian state that Soviet Union had been. Thus getting arms, even tanks, in Russia today is NOT that difficult even if Putin wanted to stop such movement of weapons. Saying that, people still demand Putin close that border, something I do not think he can do, even if he wanted to.
http://www.npr.org/2014/03/30/296516967/caught-between-russia-and-ukraine-border-cities-share-only-worry
Unmenacing Dennis
(50 posts)Wouldn't really surprise me, as he's sure as Hell not working for America.
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)The details were horrifying. Ukrainian officials had nailed a 3-year-old, clad in just his underwear, to a wooden board “just like Jesus,” right before his mother’s eyes, according to Russian state television. Then, said Galina Pyshniak, Channel One’s sole witness and a pro-Russian refugee, the military in Slovyansk had grabbed the mother, tied her to a tank, and dragged her three times around the city’s central Lenin Square. “The Ukrainian army are not liberators—they’re bastards,” she said.
“One’s mind refuses to understand how anything like that could happen today in the center of Europe, while one’s heart does not believe that such thing is possible at all,” Channel One’s anchor philosophized.
But Russian opposition leaders said Monday that there was no evidence that such a public execution had taken place in Slovyansk. Alexei Navalny and Boris Nemtsov called the story “dangerously false” and called for the management of Channel One, Russia’s most popular channel, to be put on trial for broadcasting it.
The calls came after the independent Moscow-based newspaper Novaya Gazeta dispatched a reporter, Yevgeny Feldman, to Slovyansk last weekend to search for more witnesses of the alleged execution. “Nobody I spoke with in Slovyansk has heard a thing about this,” he tweeted.
more
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/15/there-s-no-evidence-the-ukrainian-army-crucified-a-child-in-slovyansk.html
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)There was one regarding a Canadian soldier being crucified near Ypres in 1915: https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081013050120AAN41ft
Another recent example came from Egypt, regarding Christians being crucified in front of the Presidential palace: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/08/22/jonathan-kay-how-egypts-crucifixion-hoax-became-a-classic-internet-urban-legend/
Crucifixion makes good propaganda, because it's so emotionally loaded. Note that in this case the story revolves around a child, which greatly amplifies its emotional loading.
Propaganda.
