Malaysian plane crashes on Ukraine-Russia border - live

[Bosonic]

Source: The Telegraph

• Interfax reports that a Malaysian plane has crashed in Ukraine
• The plane was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur
• 295 people were on board

16.20 The plane is thought to have crashed near Shaktersk.

16.15 Interfax news agency are claiming that a Malaysian passenger plane has crashed in Ukraine, near the Russian border.

"A Boeing Malaysian Airlines that was flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur began to descend about 50km before entering Russian airspace, and was subsequently found burning on the ground in Ukraine," an aviation source told Interfax.

Interfax said that 295 people were on board at the time.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10974050/Malaysian-plane-crashes-on-Ukraine-Russia-border-live.html

---

Thick black smoke from the area in east Ukraine where a Malaysian airliner reportedly crashed.

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/489792197370589184

[KeepItReal]

1. Flight is MH 17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur

Interfax is claiming it was shot down from an altitude of 10K (about 32,000 ft). No confirmation yet.

Link to live coverage on SKY News:

http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-crashes-with-295-on-board

[Bosonic]

2. Malaysia Airlines Plane Crashes in Ukraine With 295 on Board

Malaysia Airlines Plane Crashes in Ukraine With 295 on Board

A Malaysia Airlines plane carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew crashed in Ukraine near the country's border with Russia, according to an Interfax report.

The Ukrainian Air Traffic agency reportedly confirmed Malaysian Airlines plane crashed near Ukrainian-Russian border. Reuters, citing Interfax as well, reports that the plane was shot down at an altitude of 10 km above eastern Ukraine, which has been the battleground of a months-long war between Ukrainian government forces and pro-Russian rebels.

The flight was said to be "found burning on the ground in Ukraine," a source tells Interfax. Below is the flight path of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which left from Amsterdam on Thursday.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-ukraine/#:eyJzIjoidCIsImkiOiJfNmt2enU0Nm5rcTV0aHo1ZSJ9

[maddezmom]

9. Horrible

[joshcryer]

3. Video of a young eyewitness:

They say it was shot down.

[Reter]

276. It was removed fast, what a shock

n/t

[icymist]

4. Another Boeing 777.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-malaysian.html

[geek tragedy]

5. KAL007 redux. nt

[dipsydoodle]

208. And Iran 655.

[geek tragedy]

210. yep. nt

[JackRiddler]

264. And TWA 800.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/20/did_us_govt_lie_about_twa

[joshcryer]

6. Other post here with a few details:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014848338

Don, you should not lock the thread with more posts when they are posted at the same time.

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. LBN rules are clear: the first thread to be started remains

and that was this one (reorder LBN by start time to see this). Number of replies (or recs, for that matter) doesn't come into it.

[joshcryer]

86. Fair enough.

But the other thread had more comments so I felt it bore consideration, but if sort by time says so, then I suppose it's better to go that route.

[KeepItReal]

7. Interfax is claiming it was shot down

They say it may have been shot down by a BUK anti-aircraft missile (NATO calls that an SA-11 or SA-17).

Damn.

[Agschmid]

13. Not the first time it's happened.

If true this is a terrible tragedy.

[echochamberlain]

297. definitely shot down

intercepted radio / cellphone transmissions of separatists confirms it was shot down, using Russian technology.

[brooklynite]

8. Flight Track

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/MAS17/history/20140717/1000Z/EHAM/WMKK

[riverwalker]

10. rumors a Russian BUK ground to air missile

shot down the plane?? Twitter has gone berserk, don't even know if this is possible, how would they know?
OMG 300 souls lost, I have chills.

[KeepItReal]

16. Shoulder-fired SA-7 and SA-14 cannot reach 32K ft. Had to be a SA-11 or SA-17 (BUK).

Russia/"Rebels" have been shooting down Ukrainian jets this week.

Someone misidentified this commercial flight.

[geek tragedy]

19. someone just ended the Ukraine conflict.

Russia pushed things way too far giving its local thugs these kinds of missiles.

[joshcryer]

23. I'm shocked.

I would have never thought Russia would give them these weapons.

[geek tragedy]

26. WHich explains the sanctions on Russia this week.

Look for sector-level sanctions to be applied now. Maybe the entire Russian economy.

[Bosonic]

36. Watch before lifenews sanitizes its videos

check out from 20-30s

&feature=youtu.be

[joshcryer]

40. Wow, downloading now.

What the fuck. I actually commented a few hours ago how Russia couldn't afford to give those weapons over to the rebels for fear Czech rebels could get a hold of them! What a clusterfuck.

[Capt. Obvious]

66. Czech rebels?

[joshcryer]

69. Apologies, meant Chechen.

Sorry for confusing them.

[Capt. Obvious]

76. You had me scrambling

as I had heard nothing of problems in the Czech Republic

[hedgehog]

71. I think the poster meant Chechen rebels

[joshcryer]

72. Thanks.

That's what I meant, posted before you helped me correct.

[hedgehog]

79. Hope I wasn't being patronizing,

since my concussion, I often make a slip of the tongue!

[joshcryer]

83. No worries.

I've been struggling in the same vein (not a concussion but a head issue; intense migraines), so I typed "Chech" and it auto-corrected to "Czech," so I assumed it was "correct." I appreciated your comment greatly.

[freshwest]

284. Greetings fellow migrainer. But I've had concussions, too. I'm lucky I know my name...

Last edited Fri Jul 18, 2014, 12:25 AM - Edit history (1)

[freshwest]

282. What a lovely landscape, good roads, infrastructure. I can't help but think of the Bundies.

Guys with guns eager to go to war. What a waste of resources and time and life. The good Earth keeps on giving. No one shows respect. Downloaded for irony.

[freshwest]

279. I only see semantics when Ukrainian arms makers under contract to Russia spread these around.

They are joined at hip and always have been. That's why they've gone on a rampage and want to join Russia. They made a living on the arms industry, part of eastern Ukraine's manufacturing base.

That's why I don't call these Russian arms, guessing they never crossed the border to Russia. A technicality to some, but it puts a different light on it to me, even though it doesn't exonerate Putin in any way.

I just can't clear that up without some info and I'm not seeing it. Tell me where I am wrong.

[Fred Sanders]

32. Jump to conclusions, no mourning for 295 innocent loves. Take a break from the hate for a minute.

[LanternWaste]

93. You then believe that individuals are unable to both speculate and mourn simultaneously

You then believe that individuals are unable to both speculate and mourn simultaneously, and that speculation is a de-facto example of hate?

[Fred Sanders]

102. Speculation is a de facto example of jumping to conclusions without evidence. You can mourn and

speculate at the same time, be my guest, it is a free internet.

[jeff47]

150. Yes, the terrible speculation caused by the rebel leader claiming responsibility.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025252010

[Fred Sanders]

159. More speculation....Twitter....great source you got there ....

[jeff47]

170. Yes, we can't possible trust the rebel leader's own twitter account.

I'm sure you'll shortly have a nice RT story blaming it on the US.

[Tetris_Iguana]

55. Exactly my thoughts. nt

[another_liberal]

245. Or . . .

We gave our pet thugs the wrong kind of missile.

[maddezmom]

246. You just never quit do you?

[another_liberal]

247. Oh, you don't like . . .

The nagging voice that keeps on reminding you how starting a war with the Russian Federation is sheer insanity?

[maddezmom]

250. Wtf? Who is talking about starting a war

with Russia on this thread?

[Cha]

268. No one is talking about it but mccain and another liberal.

[maddezmom]

270. This schtick is getting old to me

As is the feigning innocent.

[The Magistrate]

273. I Agree, Ma'am: The Feigned Innocence Just Reeks....

I can get along with an honest rogue, but a man has to be forthright about doing what he does if he expects to meet with respect.

[joshcryer]

21. "Misidentified."

I think they shoot at anything flying over.

[KeepItReal]

68. Commercial airlines fly that corridor frequently. It should not have been deemed a hostile.

There was a NOTAM to commercial aviators last month that advised avoiding that region.

Apparently airlines fly it anyway.

Here's a link to the NOTAM: http://www.notaminfo.com/latest

[joshcryer]

70. I'm thinking it was just bad luck.

Flying over the wrong guys with the wrong capabilities.

[misterhighwasted]

163. Sounds like that is exactly what happened. They thought it was a cargo plane.

oh good lord!

They tweeted their success just before the report came in about the MH plane being shot down.

[freshwest]

287. DU thread indicated that to be the case. Tweets and several videos posted:

Last edited Fri Jul 18, 2014, 10:43 AM - Edit history (1)

7. Ukrainian security service on their official channel intercepted terrorist Bezler phone which confirms Boeing hit:

Translation:

0:20: A: Just now, just now, "Minera" group downed an airplane. It fell on Yenakivo.
0:26: B: Pilots? Where are the pilots?
0:29: A: We're going now to search and take photos of the wreckage.
0:33: B: How long ago?
0:34: A: About 30 minutes.

0:44: C: Yes, "Major"
0:45: D: From Chernuhino, they downed the plane.
0:48: C: Who?
0:49: C: From Chernuhino post, cossacks that are stationed at Chernukino.
0:56: C: The plane broke up in mid-air, near Petropavlosk mine. First 200 (ed: ?). Found first 200 (ed: ?). Civilian.
1:12: D: So what's going on?
1:15: C: Stupid civilian plane.
1:18: D: Understood. Are there many people?
1:20: C: FUBAR. Wreckage falling right in peoples yards.
1:24: D: What model?
1:26: C: I haven't figured it out yet. Haven't yet gotten to the main debris. I'm still where the first bodies fell.
1:31: C: There's wreckage of internal containers, seats, bodies.
1:35: D: Understood. Are there any weapons?
1:37: C: Nothing at all. Civilian stuff, medical supplies, towels, toilet paper.
1:43: D: Any documents?
1:45: C: Yes. Indonesian student. From Thompson university.

1:52: About that plane shot down near Snezhnovo Torez. It turned out to be a passenger plane. Fell near Grabovo, there's lots of bodies, women and children. Right now the cossacks are inspecting it.
2:03: On TV they are saying AN-26, Ukrainian transport, but are saying it's labeled Malaysian Airlines.
2:12: What was it doing in Ukrainian territory?
2:16: Maybe it was transporting spies. Who knows. It's war.

to ReverendDeuce

More at the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5253748

Operating on the 'Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out' mindset.

[freshwest]

275. That was bad enough. Now they've done themselves in. They must quit this.

[Sunlei]

108. Putin's troop build-up & his BUK launchers. One of his people fired the missile, probably drunk.

Putin was on the phone with Obama and informed him first that there was an issue just reported by air traffic control!

Putin you IDIOT!!

[MoonchildCA]

11. Commercial airline shot down.

If that does turn out to be true, that's scary as hell!

[CBGLuthier]

30. That would be two for Russia and one for the US.

Will it change a thing? I doubt it. The world has lost its collective mind.

[JackRiddler]

263. Depends on TWA 800.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/20/did_us_govt_lie_about_twa

[CreekDog]

290. So you're saying the Russians shot it down

Interesting.

[JackRiddler]

293. TWA 800? I don't think so.

[CreekDog]

300. the Ukrainians shot down TWA 800? is that what you're saying?

or did you go down this road to give examples of planes Russian weapons did not shoot down?

kinda weak. kinda obvious though.

[JackRiddler]

302. Sorry if you're not reading.

I responded to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=848418

Now skip off and go bother other people.

[conservaphobe]

12. The entire world should crush all those responsible.

Time for these games to end.

[another_liberal]

140. Will you be at the front . . .

"Ready to give life and limb!"

Just curious?

[SummerSnow]

14. Oh no, disturbing and sad. There are many media speculations. Ugh.

[OKNancy]

15. yes... speculating it was shot down by the Russians

[SummerSnow]

29. If it's true I wonder if Putin is rekindling an old grudge

against Malaysia cause they supported Afghanistan during the Russian invasion of Afghanistan in the 80s. Their relationship seemed to have improved over the years but with Putin who knows ?

[TwilightGardener]

17. It would have had to be at pretty high altitude--

yikes.

[Bosonic]

20. ~10km apparently

ie not MANPAD reachable

[conservaphobe]

24. Yep. They're already saying it would take a very advanced air defense system. nt

[TwilightGardener]

28. Yeah, the sort that a ragtag group of "self-defense rebels" always have on hand...

[Xithras]

47. Could have been either side at this point.

Both sides control anti-aircraft systems of the same model. The Ukrainians inherited them from the Soviet Union post-breakup, and the rebels have at least one (spotted by the media) which they claim was seized from Ukrainian forces (the Ukrainians, of course, say that Russia gave it to them).

Both sides of this conflict are reliant on poorly trained fighters with little practical experience before the current rebellion. It could have been a rebel who thought the plane was another Ukrainian fighter jet (they've been pounding the hell out of the rebels lately), or it could have been one of the Ukrainian nationalist troops who assumed that Russia was coming to visit. Or it could have been a false flag operation staged by one side against the other (either side could potentially benefit from this, if it can be conclusively pinned on the other).

Somewhere out there, in all that wreckage, is a plate with an identifying number for the missile. Unless someone has actual video of a launch or missile strike, we won't know the truth until it's found.

[joshcryer]

54. There is no Ukranian AA deployed in Donbas.

So it would have to be from the rebel side.

And as Igel pointed out, if they deconstruct / tear apart the plane before investigators can get there, then you'll never know what happened.

[Tetris_Iguana]

58. I don't think the world will wait for an investigation

Before acting decisively.

[Xithras]

65. I'm sure there's some somewhere.

Given Ukraine's current paranoia that a full blown Russian invasion is imminent, I find it hard to believe that they have no AA units in the eastern part of the country.

That said, it looks like the rebels may have already admitted responsibility via social media. My list of "or"'s apparently didn't account for the possibility of honesty. It's such a rare thing nowadays.

[joshcryer]

67. Eh, they admitted it before realizing what they did.

You can expect back tracking and conspiracies to follow soon.

[Igel]

106. The Ukrainians, as the Russians like to point out, don't really control the east.

In fact, that area is hotly contested. For about 10 miles to either side of Grabovo it's all rebel territory. The area south and SE of that is a hot zone, where the Ukrainians are just barely hanging on. They have little heavy equipment there for fighting back and have lost territory there and taken heavy losses, with constant complaints about the low level of support they're getting--they hold a narrow strip along the border, and the reports about Grad fire from the Russian side of the border have been persistent and widespread. When your back's against the border it's fairly easy to tell what direction the fire's coming in from.

It's most likely that if they were going to bring in something it would be useful against tanks and APCs. If they did have something to shoot down a plane, they'd probably have something to take out choppers and UAVs. If they did have something that could shoot down a plane at that altitude, they'd most likely fire at something they could see (not something 20 miles away) or that had gone overhead (not something crossing from the far NW border).

There's no equivalency in the odds here. Not even close. The default hypothesis is that it was the rebels using Russian-provided equipment. (Why Russian provided? Because for a month of bombing they didn't have this kind of equipment and didn't get it from any new Ukr military bases they took over. Then when it shows up, it shows up right against the Russian border for its first uses, which, if you're going to have SA systems, isn't where you'd put them--you don't want something like that being among the first things captured in case of attack.)

[TwilightGardener]

57. I think it will have come from Russia, either directly or via

their little green men.

[Adrahil]

137. While true....

... what would the Ukranian gov't forces be doing shooting such a large plane.

OTOH, the Russian-backed rebels have been shooting at large "transport" planes.


Nothing is certain, and I'm gonna be careful here, but I'd say the rebels are FAR more likely to be the culprit.

[hack89]

51. The sort that groups being armed by Russia would have on hand. nt

[BumRushDaShow]

18. Just sad

[brooklynite]

22. MAS confirm has lost contact with MH17

New Straits Times (KL):

KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysia Airlines (MAS) has confirmed that it has lost contact with MH17 which was bound to Kuala Lumpur from Amsterdam.

On its Twitter page, MAS said: “Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH17 from Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian airspace. More details to follow.”

The Boeing 777 was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew.

[Igel]

25. Well, this should be interesting

I wonder if the rebels will take credit for this or leave it to the Russians.

Or maybe try to say that it's just fascists that shot it down, because that's what fascists do.

Too high for shoulder-fired weapons.

Downed about 25 miles NW of D'yakovo, near a little berg called "Grabovo, Donetsk oblast, Ukraine" if anybody wants to use Google maps, and is closer than that to the Russian border.

D'yakovo's been the site of some heavy fighting as the DNR tries to retake control of their supply lines through the border crossing there. The SU-25 shot down today was either there or over near Krasnodon, reports haven't said which but that's where the real fighting is currently. Ukraine has limited military radar capacity in the area, their only coverage would be for high-flying civilian planes. It's unclear why the Ukrainians would have shot down a plane that high moving in that direction at that height. However, others would be motivated--others without good access to Ukrainian flight-control data.

I wonder if the DNR will be like the LNR was a couple of days ago with the Antonov: Round up workers and have them cut the plane to pieces for scrap within a day or two to avoid any investigation.

Sympathies for the crew and passengers. Ukraine's closed the air space over that area a time or two in the last month. Hadn't heard that it was officially re-opened.

============ update

One separatist press source reported it was a Ukr military plane that crashed. They "downed" a An-26. Or possibly a fighter. The pro-Russian supporters at that site are a bit rabid, but are tied in with the rebels "media information center". http://rusvesna.su/news/1405607531

RIA Novosti (the Ukrainian version) just says "crashed." "Catastrophe." The overriding assumption there is that it just neutrally fell. Now, that's still possible. But it's not the way to bet. They also say that the assertion that a Russian plane or Russian-provided weapons shot down the Su-25 is "absurd".

No doubt Strelkov, Gubarev, and Belokamennaya are busily discussing how, exactly, it's all the fascists' fault right now.

[joshcryer]

34. Already blaming NATO / CT flowing rapidly.

Anyone but the rebels...

[Igel]

45. Of course.

Because if it's the rebels, that means it's the Russian FSB.

Ukrainians had all the information that it was civilian, and no military radar. Russians had military radar and frequent recon flights along the border, but no civilian radar info.

The first social media reports from Torez and Grabovo were that it was too small or had the wrong profile to be a Boeing-777, so it couldn't be. Had to be something else. Transport or fighter or UAV. Something that was appropriately a military target. Then it was confirmed as civilian, and the story had to change.

[joshcryer]

27. Twitter fascists saying the "airpspace was closed."

Victim blaming to the core. Yes the original track of the plane was to avoid Ukraine altogether. The pilot clearly decided to shave off an hour or so of flight time. It doesn't excuse these fascist murderers from what they did. :'(

[Igel]

56. Making some awfully big assumptions there.

This is the first plane allegedly shot down by the Ukrainians. Even choppers that violated their airspace weren't shot down. And they had pretty much nobody there--and the closest place they could have the right kind of installation is probably out of range. That's going to be a tough call for fact-based analysis.

The Ukrainians would also have had the flight information from civilian radar and transponder signals. And zero to no military radar in the area. The rebels are proud of that point. The Russians have their military radar but control would have just passed or been about to pass to Russian airspace control. Don't know where the borders are for that kind of thing--even Crimea, whatever the Russian media say, is still officially Ukrainian airspace according to the international civilian aeronautics board.

What's left to account for are the immediate reports from rebel sources that it was an An-26 that was shot down. Although they did use the passive (not "my sbili" 'we shot down' but just the passive "sbit" 'was shot down'). This might be official speculation or just more rah-rah jingoism from the separatists.

Then there were reports that it couldn't have been a Boeing-777. It had the profile of a military plane.

Only when it was confirmed on the ground was it suddenly something shot down by the Ukrainian military. Even though the rebels are proud of being able to shoot down planes over 20k feet. And given Snizhne recently, may well have believed this (as their first reports were) to be something that could drop bombs. The rebels also have no good radar or air-recon (except what's provided by the Russians) and would have gone by visual sighting.

Either way, it's Russian provided equipment or Russian men involved. Perhaps some of the anonymous "little green men" that surfaced earlier today?

No, that would violate an article of faith.

[joshcryer]

64. I was saying their original flight path avoided Ukraine:

You can see their official flight path here: http://rasp.yandex.ru/map/air/#center=59.15947561919468%2C34.863517000046734,zoom=4,number=MH%2017

They avoided Ukraine completely.

But the actual flight path is here: http://www.flightradar24.com/2014-07-17/13:08/12x/MAS17/3d6095b

They clearly deviated. Not sure what you're saying with regards to the Ukrainian military because I don't believe they are responsible. It's either the Russians, Russian supplied weapons, or Russia + FSB support with bad intel. There's no way Ukraine did this. It's the rebels the whole way.

[Igel]

121. "Fascist murderers."

I assumed you were engaged in rebel-speak, in which all things Ukrainian are obligatorily preceded by "fascist". These days after reading so much Russian "stuff" I tend to think of the word "fascist" as an ethnic label that just means "Ukrainian". After all, they're all "fascists," and "murderers," and out to kill "peaceful people" (i.e., "civilians"--Russian has a word for that but they don't use it in this conflict).

So instead of dealing with just the post, I thought I had to show that it was unlikely that the "fascist" Ukrainian forces had much of a likelihood of having downed the Malaysian civilian airliner.

Sorry if I drew the wrong conclusion.

[joshcryer]

128. Not at all.

I consider the rebels fascists and have always referred to them as such as they are following Dugin's roadmap for Ukraine. The rebels are actually fascists and when they refer to Maidan protesters as such they are merely hiding the fact that they themselves are fascists.

Sorry if my vernacular went in the unexpected direction. I have no good will toward the rebels / separatists / DNR people. They are terrorists in my eyes.

[DonViejo]

31. AP: Malaysian jet shot down over Ukraine, official says

An adviser to Ukraine’s Interior Minister says a Malaysian passenger plane carrying 295 people has been shot down over a town in the east of the country, the wire service reports.

Anton Gerashenko says on his Facebook page the plane was flying at an altitude of 10,000 meters (33,000 feet) when it was hit Thursday by a missile.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/official-malaysian-plane-shot-down-over-ukraine/2014/07/17/12a26e66-0dc9-11e4-9c90-0c289b74e142_story.html

[BlueCheese]

33. My God.

How terrible. Sympathy for all aboard and their families. And for Malaysia.

[Mr.Bill]

35. I'm sure McCain will call a press conference

to say it was caused by Obama's weak foreign policy.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

46. Andrea Mitchell has him on right now and he's already inferring blame on Obama.

[MoonchildCA]

99. Why MSNBC gives him the time of day, I have no idea.

He's such a transparent, war-mongering a-hole. I can't stand the sight of him anymore.

[tridim]

48. He just did, on Andrea Greenspan's show.

[Mr.Bill]

61. Well at least he's predictable. n/t

[BumRushDaShow]

74. Walked by the teevee and saw his ugly mug

blabbering away about "not jumping to conclusions" and then somehow confusing the civillian plane downing with the earlier reports of a military jet downed.

I swear no one will want to fly that poor airline.

[riverwalker]

37. Rebel leaders Facebook" We warned them not to fly in our sky"

https://twitter.com/grasswire/status/489798868939198465/photo/1

[geek tragedy]

38. Ugh. Monsters. Just monsters, no othe word for those pigs. nt

[maddezmom]

41. Oh dear god

[joshcryer]

42. Christ.

[conservaphobe]

49. Time to crush them.

Some will maintain that we take a KUMBAYA approach to this, but people like this don't respond to folk songs around a campfire.

[Union Scribe]

77. When do you ship out, eager soldier? nt

[Tetris_Iguana]

154. I doubt they'll ever leave their armchair.

[warrant46]

164. Key Board Commandos

As one of my Commanders in Viet-Nam once said---

"Don't fret men, there's Plenty of Glory for Everyone"

[TwilightGardener]

59. Good work, there, Pooty-poot.

[herding cats]

63. They went too far.

This is what happens when you give weapons like those to thugs like these. Putin knew that when he did it though.

[another_liberal]

152. Since the plane was painted in Russian colors of white, red and blue . . .

It was much more likely a Ukrainian fighter pilot who made the attack, mistaking the passenger jet for a Russian aircraft.

https://www.google.com/search?q=malaysia+airlines+aircraft+pictures&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WQHIU9r0IsyGyAS9i4KoCw&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=929

[Bosonic]

156. You've got to be fucking kidding

This is weak sauce, even for the RT peanut gallery

[TwilightGardener]

185. Their central office needs to deliver them the same talking points, they appear

to be in disarray this morning. Get on the same page, Putinistas!!

[another_liberal]

191. Fascinating . . .

Please do tell us more?

[another_liberal]

183. No, I am not "kidding" . . .

My theory makes more sense than just saying, "THE RUSSIANS DID IT AGAIN!"

[Agschmid]

184. It doesn't.

[Bosonic]

186. You make as much sense as you usually do

[another_liberal]

189. Then don't bother replying to my comments . . .

You will not be irreplaceable.

[Bosonic]

193. I ignored your first ridiculous post to my OP

When you continued to spread your shite around, I felt I had to speak up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014848337#post135

Malaysian Airlines again . . .

Maybe its another suicidal copilot?

More likely, though, it was some hot shot Ukrainian fighter pilot who saw the red, white and blue trim of the airliner and thought it was a Russian aircraft.

[another_liberal]

197. Why is it ridiculous?

It is the same airline, one has to consider the possibility their personnel control is just really poor. On the other hand, Ukraine does have a number of high performance interceptors (and plenty of American financed air-to-air missiles for them) why not at least consider the possibility of mistaken identity in this case. It's not like the Ukrainian air force has had a spotless on-target record in its attacks heretofore.

[snooper2]

242. you walking these "theories" back yet?

[another_liberal]

244. Why would one "Walk back" a theory?

What do you think a "theory" is in this context? It is only a possible explanation. Why does that frighten you so much?

Theoretical means: "In need of proof."

I'm as eager to see some proof as anyone else. Let the proving begin!

[maddezmom]

271. No one frightened or scared or whatever you want to call it....

Just sick of he same old stuff from you everytime. BTW, did you read those links where you asked for them?

[CreekDog]

291. Which means you've entertained EVERY possibility, except one

How obvious can one be?

[EX500rider]

240. Why would the Ukrainian Air Force shoot down a Boeing at 30,000 ft headed east?

After it had overflown their entire country at high alt headed ESE? They do have air traffic controllers and the plane would have had a transponder.

[IronGate]

171. Are you for fucking real?

There is absolutely no evidence of this at al.

[maddezmom]

173. Sadly, yes

[another_liberal]

188. No, and there is no evidence yet for any other theory.

Just because don't jump at every chance to blame Russia for everything, you act like I said something fantastic.

[Igel]

202. Twitter post from Strelkov.

Posts of photo of BUK moving through Snizhne on its way to Dmitrivka not long *before* the plane was shot down.

Claim of Buk missile launch at the right time.

Other planes shot down by rebels. Including one earlier today (a Sukhoi-25, that was shot down, near Torez).

Claim that Ukr has no AA capability. And that after the Sukhoi was downed today the Ukr air force did exactly what it did before--grounded its planes. (That worked out well for the insurgents the first time around. I'd assume they'd try the same trick again. If it was the insurgents the last time, because today they claimed they had no way to knock down a plane that high. But almost anything that can take down a plane at 21k feet can do the same trick at 33k feet. Either they're lying about their capabilities today or they just said Russia knocked down the Antonov earlier this week.)

Question as to why if a Ukr fighter did it, thinking it was a Russian plane. He'd have seen that it had managed to penetrate Ukrainian space from the NW nearly to the Russian border--meaning it had to come from SW Belorus and cross hundreds of miles, instead of moving from the nearest airbase 50 miles away and making a quick pass 1 mile inside the border to hit presumptive targets. That assumes he just had it on his onboard radar and shot it from a distance. But if he got close enough for your idea--he saw the colors on the tail--then he'd see it wasn't a bomber at all But if you're eye-balling it from the ground, it's moving in the right direction to be a Ukr military plane and it's too high to do much else with unless you know your planes very, very well. If you're a Russian Sukhoi you'd see the plane moving from clearly Ukrainian airspace into "rebel" airspace and could use on-board radar to take it out before you could see details. No reason for a fly-by, and every reason to avoid one: You wouldn't want the last transmission from the Ukrainian plane to be, "We're 30 miles from the border and were just buzzed by a Russian air force plane". Seriously.

It's rather like going to a carnival and shooting at the little ducks so you can win a prize. Then when you hit the 3rd duck and go to claim the stuffed animal for your girl the carnie operator says, "No! You didn't hit it! A small meteorite hit it--and that's the only theory that we have any evidence for."

You have to engage in some highly motivated thinking to chuck out what little we know or strongly suspect to be true in order exculpate the most likely candidates and fall down the list to the much less likely based on a similarity of colors on the tail.

Or you could just read RT and some of the posts there and save yourself the trouble.

Owen Roberts?

[another_liberal]

207. It is now being reported that the attack may have been intended for Putin.

The Russian President's plane, returning from Brazil, crossed the same area half an hour later, and some sources are suggesting the Ukrainian attack which shot down the Malaysian plane was intended to shoot down Putin's very similar aircraft.

[Agschmid]

215. It's not the similar, in fact it has two extra engines...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_presidential_aircraft



ETA: Comparison shot...

[another_liberal]

243. Maybe so . . .

Lets hope there is a serious investigation, and that the true cause is discovered.

[Agschmid]

251. And I hate to source RT but even they are saying this...

http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/

[EX500rider]

241. I really doubt the Ukrainians want to kill putin and maybe get nuked in return.

[herding cats]

178. That's some twisted logic that would make a pretzel envious. nt

[another_liberal]

187. I think it makes a lot more sense than blaming Russia . . .

Just because you don't like them anyway.

[herding cats]

190. You do realize the plane was shot down deep in rebel territory?

I think you're missing that fact in your speculation.

[another_liberal]

192. Are you suggesting Ukraine's air and land forces aren't also, "deep in rebel territory?"

They are, you know, deep enough to be on the Russian border in several places.

[Igel]

204. You need a map.

They control a narrow strip along the border from Donets'k oblast up to near Krasnopartizansk, the Ivaryne border crossing where even RIA Novosti has finally gotten around to posting without comment the footage of Grad fire from a mile or so inside Russian territory near the town of Gukovo.

There are repeated clashes near Saur-Mogila (which is a high point that the rebels retook last week) near D'yakovo, where the 72nd motorized is pinned down. Fighting continues around Krasnodon, Krasnopartizansk. They're having trouble fending off assaults in both areas. If you're going to take missile batteries in to that area, you'd want them for fending off the ground forces making mincemeat out of your men, not for fighting the non-existent (or nearly so--depends who you talk to) DNR/LNR air force.

At the same time there have been frequent UAV incursions and chopper incursions across the Russian border. Oddly, these are much easier to shoot down. Some UAVs have been shot down--AK fire can do that, as Afghanistan fighters can tell you. No choppers have been brought down. At least not by the Ukrainians. We don't count the one downed during the ceasefire.

The official policy is to surround the DNR and LNR. You don't surround a city by plunging into the middle.

[another_liberal]

212. Why do you think it had to be over Ukrainian-controled territory to be downed by them?

Modern anti-aircraft weapons have quite a good range. That is even more the case with air-to-air examples, since they are carried on aircraft to begin with.

[Igel]

274. Because you either use radar or sight.

Because I don't assume that all Ukrainians are just inherently bad people that like crucifying children any more than I think every Russian wants to crucify a Ukrainian on the front of an APC. I have no need to rustle up sins to pin to them.

(Missed the APC reference? It was reported about the same time as the kiddie crucifixion, but was supposed to have happened in Lugansk to a Ukrainian POW. I suppose one report must have preceded the other, but I don't know the order.)

That said, the most innocent place for a Ukr Buk to down a passenger jet is in rebel territory. But that would mean taking a big, expensive, dangerous piece of equipment where it would serve no purpose. There's no air force behind rebel enemy lines. It's also the least likely place.

If it's going to be downed, it would be downed where it can be observed, where it's a threat, and where they'd have the wreckage under their control. Not where it's observable only by radar (remember--not much Ukr radar in that neck of the woods) and where it's no threat at all.

My assumption is twofold. First, a lot of the spurious argumentation here is driven by a need to show moral rectitude that really has no business on this thread. Second, whoever shot it down assumed it was a military target.

Most of the moralizing immediate vanishes with the assumption that both sides are people and not cardboard cutouts in a morality tale. No need to impute ultimate evil to either side. No need to speculate irrationally that Putin was on a plane and it was attempt on the Great Leader's life. Once people are people, there's a great sense of relief, not just a great sense of accuracy.

The rest vanishes with the recognition that whoever shot it down thought they were downing a military plane. Then it's a question of negligence, and how easy it would have been to verify what the plane was. The rebels get off really easy on this score because they had no really fast means to track the plane.

What's left is a vestigial sense of guilt, the same kind of guilt that you have when you simply fail to see somebody on a dark, rainy night as they step in front of your car. You may not be guilty in any legal, preventable sense, but you feel guilty. And nobody wants to be allied with some group that is guilty in that nebulous sort of way.

But then there's PR. Not everybody can distinguish between the two kinds of guilt. It's hard to stop being an omniscient judge and reading hearts and minds of entire ethnicities, attributing evil or righteousness to one or the other. So it'll lead to bad press. They may be trying out spin--by shooting down a fighter the valiant insurgents actually saved a passenger plane, how could you accuse them of shooting down a passenger plane. But that relies to local rebel commanders being omniscient. It rings false through and through, except for those who already believe in their commanders' omniscience; they need serious counselling.

Then there's the additional attention. Some believers in ultimate goodness of the rebels rely on their being on the side of the little man, a lot of people searching for dignity and money and human rights against oppressors. If they suddenly have a country that can send in 50k troops and 5k tanks, who's been providing leaders, advice, munitions, funding, armaments and milintel for the last few months, that kind of myth pops like a bubble. The true believers in the Russian World and 3rd-Rome Orthodoxy are fine with it--they'd revel in knowing that Putin-father really does love for them personally (and in some cases, sexually) and they really are the heart of Russia, fighting to bend the arc of history to reverse the horrible historical injustice that occurred in 1991 and restore Russian greatness to what it was under Stalin. Meh. For the most part, more attention to Russian intervention is a bad thing for those people's ambitions.

And Western politicians must have groaned and knocked back a shot after hearing of this. Because they've been super-intent on the same goal: Let the war be a small one self-contained. If Russia really wants to control the country, we care about human rights but not 40 million Ukrainians. They care about stability, because that's money. They care about money and stability because that's votes. Sanctions = less money. Challenging Russia = less stability. As long as it's their war, let it be--sanctions are a show, sanctions force stability, sanctions serve the politicians. But 298 dead, including 3 infants and 23 Americans? Dozens of Europeans. And 3rd worlders! Dang. It's not a local problem, and if Russia's really involved with these rebels and they *did* shot down the plane, even by accident ... the politicians may have to *do* something.

And that can't be good for soldier of fortune Strelkov-Girkin, for the PR man Borodai, for Father Frost Gubarev. I mean, would you really want him to host your child's holiday party?

But once you get past all of the political ramifications, it's still a "whodunit". And it would be nice if one of the accused wasn't given all the evidence and told to lead the investigation.

[The Magistrate]

277. Excellent Comment, Sir

My hat is off to you.

[CreekDog]

292. You seem to be willing to blame anybody but Russia

Interesting.

[hack89]

248. Except Russian military aircraft are not painted white, red and blue

secondly, if he can see the colors he can see that it was a Boeing 777 and thus not a target. That big logo on the tail would also be a reason not to think it was Russian.

[blackspade]

254. Highly unlikely.

Russian military planes do not use white, red, and blue livery. They use various forms of aerial camouflage.

[MohRokTah]

272. Um, it's been verified to have been a SAM

so your theory is as much bunk as your RT BS you constantly post.

[hedgehog]

73. Do we know for certain who authorered this Facebook page?

[joshcryer]

205. It wasn't FB, it was vk.com, his official site:

https://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_7256

The link is no longer there, but it's his official feed where he posts updates. They've been backtracking for a few hours now. They thought it was a cargo plane.

[hedgehog]

214. Thank you for that information!

[JackRiddler]

294. vk is vkontakte, a Russian FB analogue.

His page, not his site.

[joshcryer]

295. Nitpicking.

That's his official page on the net.

[Igel]

75. Translation.

(Comments in ().)

Report from Strelkov, Igor' Ivanovich ("Commendant" of rebel forces based in Donets'k)
17 JUL 2014 17:50. Communique from the insurgency.

In the Torez region we (or "they&quot just shot down an An-26 plane, it's someplace past the "Progress" mine.
We (or "they&quot warned them not to fly in "our sky."
And here's video confirmation about the next "bird fall".
The bird fell behind a pit heap, residential area wasn't struck.
Civilians did not suffer.

And there is also information about a second downed plane, probably an Su."

(He has no doubt that it was his men that knocked it down. Keep in mine, though, that Strelkov wasn't near the site. He probably just heard that there was a downed plane, a large one, and assumed that it was an An and wanted to claim the victory for the brave local international brigades fighting against the fascist junta in Kiev.)

[Union Scribe]

80. Is there a link to the FB post?

All I see is the alleged screenshot on Twitter, but I'd rather see it in situ.

[Igel]

226. Sorry, I don't do Twitter.

And I scrupulously avoid FB. I'm a teacher, and too many teachers get canned because they screw up on Facebook. Even innocent things in the wrong context can be grounds for dismissal, and I have a mortage and kid to care for and feed.

As for Twitter, I can't set up a texting list on my iPhone. Me, social media ... I miss usenet or whatever it was in the '90s.

And let's not get started with Instagram or whatever the newest fads are. Blech.

[KeepItReal]

97. Sky News reports the same info you posted.

http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-crashes-with-295-on-board

It seems the rebel leader thought they downed another Ukrainian AN-26 or IL-76

[Renew Deal]

112. Warned who? And the people on the plane are civilians.

[KeepItReal]

120. Rebels warning/taunting Ukrainian military. MH 17 flew into hostile airspace for some reason.

There was a official warning to avoid that area.

http://www.notaminfo.com/latest

[jakeXT]

145. I think that is pushing planes from Crimea and the Black Sea into mainland Ukraine.

POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION UKRAINE AIRSPACE, PARTICULARLY OVER
CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV.
DUE TO THE POTENTIAL FOR CONFLICTING AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL (ATC)
INSTRUCTIONS FROM UKRAINIAN AND RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES AND FOR THE
RELATED POTENTIAL MISIDENTIFICATION OF CIVIL AIRCRAFT, UK AIRCRAFT
OPERATORS ARE STRONGLY ADVISED TO AVOID, UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, THE
AIRSPACE OVER CRIMEA, THE BLACK SEA, AND THE SEA OF AZOV, WITHIN THE
FOLLOWING LATERAL LIMITS:

[Igel]

227. Yes and no.

The international aeronautics board says Crimea is Ukr. Russia really says otherwise and even announced during a meeting of the board that they'd granted control over Crimean airspace to Russia.

It was part of the usual information war that's happening. It's a hoot to watch and read, but annoying if you're caught up in it.

It forced the aeronautics board to even announce, specifically, that it had not changed anything and that the Crimean airspace would continue to be managed by the Ukrainian aviation agency, whatever it's called. That was not reported in the Russian media, not that I'm aware of.

I'm not surprised there are conflicting reports. I'd have expected the Malaysian flight, though, to have skirted to the north of the Donbas even if it meant staying in Russian airspace longer. It's not like they could avoid it. (But maybe that would have taken it over militarily sensitive areas. I assume Russia has them--the US does and the USSR certainly did).

[jakeXT]

232. Also maybe the airspace around the closed airports is closed

Earlier, Ukraerorukh told ITAR-TASS that “for technical reasons” the international airport of another eastern city, Lugansk, has been closed till September 10. The official website says current repairs of lighting and radio navigation equipment, the runway and power supply cables are in progress.

All passenger flights in the airspace over the Donetsk and Lugansk regions are prohibited by the Ukrainian aviation authorities.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738155

[Agschmid]

199. Just mentioned on MSNBC now...

Of course no confirmation of anything.

[Tetris_Iguana]

39. Wow

[Marrah_G]

43. Very sad :(

[herding cats]

44. I cannot believe they did this.

No one can believe they did this where I am. We're all looking at each other in shock these thugs just shot down a passenger plane plane full of people! WTF were they thinking?

[rebecca_herman]

60. The same thing as any terrorists, I guess

It's sickening

[Igel]

62. They were thinking they were shooting down a SU-25 or An-26.

They only had visual sighting, if it was the rebels and not their allies.

There's a good reason for the airspace to be closed.

They rebels have been into coining "fall words": "Listopad" is the word for "autumn" (leaf-fall), and they've said that this summer is "mostopad" (bridge-fall) and termed this "ptichkopad" (bird-fall).

[Agschmid]

50. SKY-NEWS, seems to confirm the missile?

http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board

[joshcryer]

52. Rebels confirm it in post #37.

At the time of posting they didn't know it was a civilian airliner, of course.

[LisaL]

98. That's absolutely false.

They are denying they shot down this airplane.

[joshcryer]

100. Of course they are.

Now.

[LisaL]

110. They never admitted to either, either now or before.

So claiming they admitted to it is absolutely false.

[joshcryer]

114. They said they shot a plane down.

They didn't know what the plane was, just that they shot one down.

[LisaL]

125. They did know which plane it was. A military plane.

That is what they are bragging about.

"The Ukrainian government said on Thursday that a Russian military plane had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet in Ukrainian airspace the previous evening, a serious allegation of direct intervention by Russia’s armed forces."

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-says-russian-plane-shot-down-its-fighter-jet.html?_r=0

[joshcryer]

131. "previous evening"

[LisaL]

134. And?

What is your point?

[joshcryer]

136. This plane got shot down a couple of hours ago?

ie, this evening?

[LisaL]

142. What is your point? You claim rebels admitted it. But the truth is they denied it.

They admitted to shutting down a military plane, not the civilian one.
WTF does this morning or yesterday evening has to do with any of it?

[joshcryer]

144. The original statement links videos to this crash.

Not to a military crash which we don't even have video of yet.

If a plane was shot down yesterday, they post 45 minutes after this plane today, and post videos of this plane todays' crash, which plane are they fucking referring to?

[LisaL]

153. What original statement?

Do you have the actual translation of it, before claiming to know what it says?

[joshcryer]

158. They took down their original statement.

https://www.facebook.com/EuroMaydan/photos/a.523254484437560.1073741828.523004674462541/652641631498844/?type=1&theater

[LisaL]

166. What does it say, exactly?

[joshcryer]

175. Here:

In the region of Torez (think he's referring to the village of Torez in Eastern Ukraine 65km from Donetsk) an AN-26 (Antonov Military cargo plane - turboprop) plane was just brought down, and it's laying somewhere pas the "Progress" mine (assuming coal mine) We warned people - don't fly in "our skies". Here is video confirmation of another "birdie's fall". Birdie fell beyond residential areas. Peaceful citizens have not suffered. There is also information about another downed plane - apparently a "Su" (Sukhoi - another Soviet / Russian manufacturer)"

http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2ayjgp/breaking_malaysian_passenger_airliner_crashes_in/cj02zyx

Emphasis mine. If they didn't think it was a military plane they would not have been posting about how happy they were to shoot it down. They think it was an AN-26 like they shot down the other day, which, btw, was at a very high altitude and could only be brought down by Buk.

[freshwest]

288. You may want to look at this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025253748

The last video says the rebels went to look a what they'd downed and they said it was a civilian plane. They had time to check out the bodies and debris:

7. Ukrainian security service on their official channel intercepted terrorist Bezler phone which confirms Boeing hit:

Translation:

0:20: A: Just now, just now, "Minera" group downed an airplane. It fell on Yenakivo.
0:26: B: Pilots? Where are the pilots?
0:29: A: We're going now to search and take photos of the wreckage.
0:33: B: How long ago?
0:34: A: About 30 minutes.

0:44: C: Yes, "Major"
0:45: D: From Chernuhino, they downed the plane.
0:48: C: Who?
0:49: C: From Chernuhino post, cossacks that are stationed at Chernukino.
0:56: C: The plane broke up in mid-air, near Petropavlosk mine. First 200 (ed: ?). Found first 200 (ed: ?). Civilian.
1:12: D: So what's going on?
1:15: C: Stupid civilian plane.
1:18: D: Understood. Are there many people?
1:20: C: FUBAR. Wreckage falling right in peoples yards.
1:24: D: What model?
1:26: C: I haven't figured it out yet. Haven't yet gotten to the main debris. I'm still where the first bodies fell.
1:31: C: There's wreckage of internal containers, seats, bodies.
1:35: D: Understood. Are there any weapons?
1:37: C: Nothing at all. Civilian stuff, medical supplies, towels, toilet paper.
1:43: D: Any documents?
1:45: C: Yes. Indonesian student. From Thompson university.

1:52: About that plane shot down near Snezhnovo Torez. It turned out to be a passenger plane. Fell near Grabovo, there's lots of bodies, women and children. Right now the cossacks are inspecting it.
2:03: On TV they are saying AN-26, Ukrainian transport, but are saying it's labeled Malaysian Airlines.
2:12: What was it doing in Ukrainian territory?
2:16: Maybe it was transporting spies. Who knows. It's war.

Of course, anyone can decide what they think was done.

[geek tragedy]

107. They bragged about it when they thought it was a Ukrainian military jet.

So, it's absolutely true that Putin's thugs bragged about it. They just thought they had killed Ukrainians instead of Dutch and Malaysians.

[LisaL]

111. But they did shoot down a military jet.

Presumably it was flying much lower.

[geek tragedy]

115. This morning? nt

[joshcryer]

117. That's what they're saying now.

They're saying they shot down a military jet and the other plane just magically blew up and that they weren't involved. There is so far no evidence of another plane being shot down at conveniently the same time this civilian plane was shot down.

[TwilightGardener]

123. The well-oiled Russian disinformation machine, clackety-clack, clackety-clack,

going full steam.

[LisaL]

129. Yes, the military plane was shot down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-says-russian-plane-shot-down-its-fighter-jet.html?_r=0

[joshcryer]

133. "previous evening"

This plane was shot down not even two hours ago.

[Igel]

130. It was a Su-25.

A Sukhoi fighter. In a different area.

And the jury's still out how they shot it down and *if* they shot it down. They'll talk to the pilot before they say much more, but they've already indicated there's a good chance it was downed by an air-to-air missile. But in this case the Boeing downing will trump that particular bit of news.

[joshcryer]

139. They're trying to down that downing to this one.

Even though the videos referenced obviously reference this downing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

218. They claimed they shot down a turboprop An-26 at the same place, today

DONETSK, July 17. /ITAR-TASS/. Militiamen of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) brought down a military transport Antonov-26 (An-26) plane of the Ukrainian Air Force on the outskirts of the town of Torez, eyewitnesses said.

A missile hit the An-26, it fell on the ground and caught blaze, they said.

On July 14, militiamen of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic downed another An-26 of the Ukrainian Air Force.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164

[Arkana]

53. Another lost Malaysian airliner?

E: Oh, god...it was shot down? Jeeeeeeesus.

[Igel]

81. Almost certainly.

But for those who need proof beyond any doubt, it's best to say that there's a chance it's just a highly implausible accident.

Then again, all civilian jet crashes are highly implausible. It's just that this particular area has a track record of planes being shot down in the last week, all by a single side.

Immediate likely culprit: seccessionists and whoever gave them the SA (or the Russians directly).

Second in line: the pilot, if he really did ignore the warning that the airspace was closed. (I wonder if he confirmed this, and with whom?)

[brooklynite]

206. This one's not lost...

...it's clearly laying in a field in Ukraine, and the fuselage will allow the cause to be determined.

Which won't stop some folks from disputing the findings in favor of baseless conspiracy theories.

[mylye2222]

78. French media just saying now

THE plane is both property of Malaysia Airline and Air France. A majority of the passengers my be Dutch thought. ..

[FourScore]

82. Let's not forget the people lost today.

My heart goes out to those on board and to their families.

[KeepItReal]

101. Yes. Whatever the cause, it is a heartbreaking tragedy.

eom

[TwilightGardener]

84. There should be immediate calls from the rest of the world that Russia

NOT be allowed to investigate--or it will be like the Polish-President crash all over again. They cannot be trusted. An international team must investigate.

[Bosonic]

122. Good luck with that

Donetsk People's Republic Deputy PM tells Interfax it will "most likely" give flight recorders to Moscow's Interstate Aviation Committee

https://twitter.com/johnson/status/489815343578509312

[TwilightGardener]

126. Unbelievable.

[dipsydoodle]

87. An airliner has crashed.

Anything else on the subject is conjecture.

[joshcryer]

90. Ukraine detected Buk missile launch:

http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/07/17/7032211/

[maddezmom]

91. True, but the large debris field they are reporting lead many to speculate it blew up, etc

Not crashed.

[jeff47]

168. Conjecture is pretty accurate when people say, "We shot it down".

With a nice tweet showing the plume from the wreckage.

'Course that was when the rebels thought it was a military plane.

[Tetris_Iguana]

89. Ya ok

[The Magistrate]

95. Train You Ride Is Never Late, Sir...

[maddezmom]

105. You make me chuckle, Sir

[davidpdx]

253. Sir, the propaganda police are out in force

and they continue to out do themselves with the latest and greatest lies. Fail indeed!

[steve2470]

266. funny stuff ! :) haha nt

[geek tragedy]

96. How have you not been banned yet? nt

[karynnj]

260. My thoughts exactly - this is one of the worst

[TwilightGardener]

104. Yeah, sure, that's very likely.

[IronGate]

118. Really?

You actually believe that shit?

[Igel]

92. RIA Novosti just posted an interesting article.

It says there were two planes downed in the area--the first was an An-26 and the second the Boeing. (They already claimed that the rebels downed an An-26 today, Thursday, citing the rebels. Now that it's clear the Boeing's crashed, they have a problem. When they're shown to be wrong, it'll be an easy mistake to make, not an obfuscation.)

They report Poroshenko isn't "excluding" that the plane was knocked down. But that the insurgents say they lack anything to bring down a plane that high. (Which is interesting--since that's immediately saying they lack anything that could have brought down the Antonov earlier this week. They have a problem.)

Poroshenko is setting up a committee to "investigate."

(The inference you are intended to draw is that RIA is tactful but clear: Poroshenko isn't excluding that his forces shot down the plane--since the Russians obviously wouldn't (that would be absurd) and the rebels can't. RIA isn't lying, not obviously. But they are really engaging in a lot of misleading and innuendo. And this is the official state news service, not something that's supposed to have a clear editorial bias like RT. Then again, I've concluded Poroshenko sets up a committee to investigate everything. "I suspect I need to take a crap, but am setting up a committee to investigate and report back to me." No, I don't like Poroshenko.)

[Sunlei]

94. The barbarians on the ground are picking through the luggage and wreckage already

A lot of big chunks of wreckage all over the place in the rural areas. The plane was 5 hours out of Amsterdam to Kuala.

[joshcryer]

103. They will "salvage" anything they can.

Before investigators can even put a boot on the ground.

[Sunlei]

119. shabby looking "country-people" are picking through the luggage right now.

The plane came down in big chunks, luggage still in the frames they load it into.

[Tetris_Iguana]

211. Disgusting

Although I can't say I wouldn't do the same if I was a dirt poor bumpkin from a second world nation.

So glass houses and all that....

[joanbarnes]

109. 18 years to the day that TWA 800 was shot down.

[TwilightGardener]

113. Er, well...officially, not shot down.

[Renew Deal]

116. TWA 800 was not shot down.

At least that cannot be proven.

5. The NTSB said a spark in a fuel tank led to the explosion

In November 1997, more than a year after the crash, the FBI announced that a criminal act did not bring down the ill-fated plane. At that point, it was up to the National Transportation Safety Board to figure out the cause of the explosion.

A full four years after the crash of TWA Flight 800, the NTSB released its official report: It found the probable cause of the accident was a spark in the center fuel tank that eventually led to the explosion that brought down the aircraft. While they offered their best theory on where the spark came from, they never found a definitive answer.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/14/us/twa-flight-800-five-things

[joanbarnes]

132. Have some more cool aid...

[Agschmid]

143. I think you drank it all...

Bummer I like kool-aid.

[Renew Deal]

146. You're the one posting conspiracy theories

[KinMd]

177. Alex Jones acolytes are here

[brooklynite]

195. My wife Uncle worked on the TW 800 wreckage analysis for Boeing

and said there was no evidence of a missile strike...

But don't let me get in the way of a good conspiracy theory.

[Reter]

278. It was 100% shot down

It tested positive for explosives. Then the FBI came up with this ridiculous story that bomb-sniffing dogs were responsible for the residue.

[Renew Deal]

280. Link?

And Infowars doesn't count as a source.

[Reter]

286. Everyone knows it tested positives for explosives

It was all over the news in 1996, then days or so later James Kallstrom said weeks earlier, bomb sniffing dogs were on the plane for exercises, and must have left some residue behind. I'm really surprised you don't remember (assuming you were an adult in 1996).

Here's something quick, but it doesn't mention the bomb sniffing dogs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_800_conspiracy_theories

"Explosive residues[edit]
As wreckage was recovered, preliminary testing indicated the presence of explosive residue on three samples of material from three separate locations of the recovered airplane wreckage (described by the FBI as a piece of canvas-like material and two pieces of a floor panel).[14] These samples were submitted to the FBI's laboratory in Washington, D.C., which determined that one sample contained traces of cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine (RDX), another nitroglycerin, and the third a combination of RDX and pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN);[14] these findings received much media attention at the time.[15][16] While investigators from the FBI viewed these positive tests as strong indications of a criminal act, the NTSB was more cautious, noting the lack of any patterns on the recovered wreckage characteristic of an explosion."

[jakeXT]

172. Ukraine also shot one down 14 years ago

MOSCOW, Oct. 13— In strained language that acknowledged only a ''tragic coincidence,'' Ukraine's president, Leonid Kuchma, stated today that he accepted investigators' preliminary finding that his military accidentally destroyed a Russian airliner over the Black Sea last week with an errant missile.

Mr. Kuchma's written statement, released tonight, did not explicitly state that the military was at fault. ''Obviously, final results of the commission's inquiry will be known after experts complete their in-depth investigation and make appropriate assessments public,'' he said. ''But even today it can be said that a big tragedy took place.''

Earlier today, Ukraine's military had taken responsibility after nine days of increasingly vaporous denials.

Seventy-eight people, most of them Russian émigrés to Israel, died when the Siberian Airlines flight from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk exploded and plunged 35,000 feet into the sea off the Russian coast. Four minutes earlier, a Ukrainian air defense exercise fired two long-range antiaircraft missiles at a drone off the Black Sea's Crimean coast.


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/14/world/after-9-days-ukraine-says-its-missile-hit-a-russian-jet.html

[jeff47]

176. With our magic missiles that travel 2x their maximum range.

[Renew Deal]

233. Anderson Cooper just said TWA 800 was "shot down."

I expect a retraction soon.

[Agschmid]

237. Good lord. I'm sure that video will be available soon too.

It's not easy to do what they do in the media but there are quite a few mistakes so far today.

[Reter]

281. "Quite a few mistakes so far today"

And that wasn't one of them.

[Agschmid]

283. It was.

TWA was not brought down with a missle, I've watched all the movies which state otherwise and in my opinion the official story, is exactly that.

[Reter]

285. Watch the recent Netflix one

You will change your opinion.

[Renew Deal]

238. He just made the retraction

13 minutes later

[Agschmid]

239. Good.

[Diclotican]

124. Bosonic

Bosonic

If this is true - and it looks like it might be - then the rebels - and russia have managed to paint them self into a nasty corner I doubt Putin do know how to make himself look good at - to shoot down an unarmed civilian airliner is kind of something you just do not do - even if you do are in a civil war on the ground....

And I do not hope - it wil end in the same fire as it did just 100 year ago - when an attentat in Sarajevo - ended in a 4 year fire who destroyed most of Europe - and was experienced all over the war.....

Diclotican

[Maedhros]

216. Unfortunately, shooting down unarmed airliners IS something that countries do.

Kaleva OH-ALL shot down by the Soviet Union on 14 June 1940.

PK-AFV shot down by Imperial Japan on 3 March 1942.

BOAC Flight 777 shot down by Nazi Germany on 1 June 1943.

El Al Flight 402 shot down by Bulgaria on 27 July 1955.

Libyan Airlines Flight 114 shot down by Israel 21 February 1973

Korean Air Lines Flight 902 shot down by the Soviet Union on 20 April 1978

KAL Flight 007 shot down by the Soviet Union on 1 September 1983.

Iran Air Flight 655 shot down by United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988.

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 shot down by Ukraine on 4 October 2001.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents

[amandabeech]

289. Whoever did this must come forward immediately,

admit the mistake, apologize profusely and humbly, offer compensation, with a statement saying that the perpetrator understands that financial compensation is completely inadequate and cannot bring back the departed, and apologize profusely and humbly again.

Otherwise, there is the possibility of much more serious consequences.

Himming and hawing about and pointing fingers elsewhere does not cut it.

How is this being viewed in Europe, Diclotican?

[Diclotican]

298. amandabeech

amandabeech

The rebels commander stated officially, on twitter that they had shot down a military jet belonging to the Ukraine air force - before the twitter was scrubbed as they might have discovered who they really was shoot down - an civilian airliner with no link to the Ukraine air force what so ever... So it is possible that it was the ukrainian rebels who manage to shot down the airline - mistaking it for a ukraine military aircraft of sorts....

But even admitting that would not make things better - the airliner is still shoot down - and 300 people is still dead - sadly I doubt anyone will came forward and say they did it - and admit to the mistake - if not forcefully been forced to do it by external powers.... Like Russia - as Putin was on a aircraft flying over the general area to other parts of Russia (Russia is a huge country spanning a lot of landmass - and also have more than 11 hours difference between Arkhangelsk and the Pacific ocean in the west) and it could be - that the rebels who was using SA-11 (BUK) was after Putin - not the 777.... That is an implication that would make heads roll if it is possible - specially as the russian politics is rather byzantine in their actions sometimes - and specially at the level of Putin... The Byzantine empire was not just exporting the Orthodox religion to Russia back in the days it sees Putin was also on the phone with President Obama just after the shoot down - and I suspect Putin had a lengthy communication with Obama about this and other things who was on his mind at the moment.. So It looks like Putin might not be in the know about what happened on the ground - or might be have been the target - the russian presidential aircraft - and the 777 could look similar from the ground at 33.000ft.. (or 10.000 meter).....

I think for the most part it is a shock to everyone - that the airliner was show down - I'm not sure if anyone have come to conclusion yet about how did what and why... It is to early to judge yet - and to point fingers to who did it... Rather the opposite - Ukraine have been in a civil war for a long time now - a low simmering war who I suspect many got tired of in the end - the conflict in the Middle east have for some reason got more attention lately - and then bom Ukraine was back in fashion with a shot down of an airliner... Raggedness who did it - i would take a lot of time to identify - and to get to the bottom of it all - to get to know who did it really.... I suspect someone on the rebel side of this conflict really had a bad day when he discovered what was happening...

Diclotican

[get the red out]

127. Horrific!

Such a terrible loss of life.

[another_liberal]

135. Malaysian Airlines again . . .

Maybe its another suicidal copilot?

More likely, though, it was some hot shot Ukrainian fighter pilot who saw the red, white and blue trim of the airliner and thought it was a Russian aircraft.

https://www.google.com/search?q=malaysia+airlines+aircraft+pictures&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=WQHIU9r0IsyGyAS9i4KoCw&ved=0CBwQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=929

[icymist]

138. OMG! FOX 'News' is showing the bodies!!!

Stupid only channel I can pickup after the demise of analog is a Fox affiliate which just switched to Fox News! They're showing wreckage with bodies and body parts strewn about!

[TwilightGardener]

141. Stay classy, FUX.

[Renew Deal]

147. If they are, others probably are as well

Particularly foreign sources

[icymist]

149. That's what they are claiming as they show this.

Guess they think that makes it alright. SICK

[Renew Deal]

155. All I can say is that it is more common in other places

Middle East and Europe.

But if you are a passenger family member, imagine seeing a relative in the wreckage?

[LongTomH]

209. Totally irresponsible and callous!

[Rapillion]

148. Curious timing

The US just announced new sanctions and a civilian airliner is shot down, gruesome photos and film footage at the ready. Coincidences are possible but . . .

Who benefits from an escalation of this war?

[Agschmid]

179. Crap post.

[Rapillion]

201. Wow

The analytical brilliance of this post was overwhelming.

[Agschmid]

203. It doesn't take much to recognize a conspiracy theory.

[Rapillion]

217. Except no theory was stated

And people get together to plan terrible things every day.

[maddezmom]

180. Why don't you tell us who you think benefits?

[Rapillion]

196. Because I don't know nt

[maddezmom]

198. Well by your post above you see to have someone in mind. Why not say?

[hrmjustin]

182. Who do you think did this?

[Rapillion]

200. It is possible

that people who want to widen the conflict would do this. I don't have enough information to know. There are political factions in Russia, the US and Ukraine who want a broader conflict.

[misterhighwasted]

151. Did Pro-Russian separatists shoot down the WRONG PLANE??

News saying pro Russian separatists tweeted a claim of 'shooting down a Ukranian cargo plane' just moments before the MH Airliner demise was reported.

Tweet says "they were warned to stay out of our airspace".
300 people dead, because of a case of mistaken identity?

What is the relationship between Russia & Malaysia?
just asking.

[Renew Deal]

157. Just heard on Sky News that they are claiming the Ukrainians did it

Looks like their story is changing fast.

[Agschmid]

162. Sky seems to have the most "facts"...

Not sure that it's reliable but they are making the most claims about what happened.

[Renew Deal]

165. One of the claims was that this is not a populated area

But I see plane parts next to homes

[Agschmid]

167. And a whole lot images made it into social media...

For an unpopulated area.

[jeff47]

181. Problem is it was hit over rebel territory.

So apparently the Ukrainians drove deep into rebel territory, set up a SAM site, shot down a plane, and then pulled back out of rebel territory. All without anyone noticing the troop movements.

Or, the rebels mistook it for a Ukrainian cargo plane.

[OKNancy]

160. that would seem to be the most logical speculation

If they did indeed do the shooting.

I'm pretty sure it was shot down and not an accident. Who did the deed, I guess and their motives are still open for questioning.

( I think it was the Separatists, but that's just opinion)

[Igel]

169. Look upthread.

The tweet was posted. Not by me.

With my translation.

The timing is the only reason I'm not cautious about the tweet: Tweets have been claimed for both sides that turned out to be damnably fake. This one, however, requires a bit of omniscience to be faked--if fake, it looks pretty sure that it would have had to be faked before it was known to anybody outside of rebel-held territory that a plane had come down.

[KeepItReal]

174. Here are the Ukrainian planes the rebels have shot down lately:

July 12, 2014: Il-76 plane was downed near the government-controlled airport in Luhansk


July 14, 2014: Antonov-26 military transport plane was shot down Monday along the country's eastern border with Russia

July 16, 2014: An SU-25 Attack Jet damaged from a MANPAD in the zone of the counterterrorist operation in East Ukraine as a result of which the pilot made a forced landing, the Ukrainian Defense Ministry reports

[brooklynite]

194. MH17: Dozens of bodies scattered around wreckage: Report

New Straits Times:

GRABOVO: Dozens of bodies were scattered around the smouldering wreckage of a passenger jet that crashed in a field in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, a Reuters reporter said.

An emergency services rescue worker said at least 100 bodies had so far been found at the scene, near the village of Grabovo, and that debris from the wreckage was spread across an area up to about 15 km (nine miles) in diameter.

Broken pieces of the wings were marked with blue and red paint - the same colours as the emblem of the Malaysian airline which lost track of a Boeing 777 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was carrying almost 300 people.

“I was working in the field on my tractor when I heard the sound of a plane and then a bang and shots. Then I saw the plane hit the ground and break in two. There was thick black smoke,” said a witness, who gave his name only as Vladimir.

[TexasTowelie]

213. Yahoo is reporting 23 Americans on board.

http://news.yahoo.com/maylasian-plane-crash-ukraine-russia-153426322.html

A Malaysia Airlines passenger plane was reportedly shot down near the Ukraine-Russia border Thursday killing all 295 people on board, an adviser to Ukraine's interior ministry said.

Both government officials and pro-Russia separatists fighting in the region denied responsibility.

An aide quoted by Interfax said the total number of dead in the crash was more than 300 and includes 23 U.S. citizens, while an Associated Press reporter at the scene reported seeing at least 22 bodies.

In brief comments made in Delaware Thursday afternoon, President Obama said the White House was aware of reports of American fatalities and was working to determine whether there were U.S. citizens on board flight MH17.

[alcibiades_mystery]

219. CNN Analyst making a good point: no smoke trail leading to crash site in explosion video

He argues, lacking a smoke trail to the crash site, he doesn't think it was a missile strike at all, as any missile strike causing the plane to come down would have caused 1) impact, 2) fire, 3) smoke trail.

[Agschmid]

220. It's a valid point especially since the impact video was released.

[Igel]

230. If it caught on fire like on the movies.

If it exploded at 33k feet from initial impact and then fuel explosion, I don't know. We see video impact. Not sure we see the source of the problem.

Apart from movie special effects, I don't have much experience with plane wrecks.

It should also be pointed out that there are chunks, with a lot of debris that covers something like 4 square km, including the actual village of Grabovo.

Need radar data and blackbox information. Last radio transmissions would be nice, too. And investigation of the crash site by somebody who isn't a suspect in shooting it down.

[joshcryer]

221. Video of alleged Buk leaving Torez/Sneznoe area:

Pic of deleted tweet showing off the Buk they have:



Please let's not revise history my fellow DUers, the rebels did this.

[joshcryer]

222. Pic of Buk in Torez today, hours before shooting:

[Comrade Grumpy]

223. I'm willing to wait and see where the evidence leads.

[joshcryer]

225. DNR claims to have the black boxes.

And will be handing them over to Moscow.

I don't know about you but I can't see a credible investigation done this way.

Especially as locals scrounge through the wreckage and salvage what they can.

[Bad Thoughts]

228. They just lost credibility

The correct--or at least the most neutral--answer is to hand them to Malaysia.

[joshcryer]

229. And call for international investigators.

As it stands now they're trying to pull a huge coverup.

[warrprayer]

224. Another Malasian 777

... with "transponder problems", you would sort of think since they were going to be flying over a war zone where just a week ago a plane was shot down, they would make absolutely sure this essential piece of safety gear was in perfect working order....

how perfectly convenient.

[Igel]

231. Don't see any evidence of transponder failure.

Have seen minute-by-minute listing of its location, so the transponder was working.

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/17/mh-17-shot-down/ gives the precise location.

[dipsydoodle]

234. There is no evidence whatsoever at present.

Just the fact that the plane crashed accompanied by supposition.

[Igel]

252. Strictly speaking there's no evidence I have of a plane crash.

The problem is all the circumstantial evidence puts means, motive, and opportunity on the side of the rebels or the Russians. And those are the two groups that have the evidence or will be given the evidence that would show guilt.

Now, there are two real sides in this. Neither side should be given the evidence. By vehemently denying that one side has a dog in this fight, when they reach the answer they already know to be true it will just be easier to say, "See, they showed what they wanted and what I wanted. I am at peace with the world." Sing it, Babe: "la-la-la-la!"

In other words, right now there's no evidence. And if Russia and its puppy dogs of imperialism get to analyse the evidence, we can already predict the direction the evidence will take.

Now, it may be possible to use circumstantial evidence, some of which we have (of course, that's not True Evidence (tm), because True Evidence is evidence beyond any doubt), to show that the guilty are guilty and the innocent are innocent. But that'll have to work around gaps in the evidence, as well as what evidence Russia produces.

And Russia has pretty good evidence-production facilities. (The rebels? Not so much.)

[CreekDog]

265. Why so concerned the pro-Russian rebels might get blamed?

why so concerned?

is it that alarming that they might get blamed? why am I not losing any sleep over this?

[totodeinhere]

235. I just flipped over to RT to get their take on this and a commentator is saying that

the Russian separatists in East Ukraine are saying that it was the Ukrainian government that shot the plane down. I am just throwing this out there. I'm not saying I believe it or not.

[jakeXT]

236. AP did photograph them driving around

Ukrainian government forces manoeuvre Buk anti-aircraft missile launchers as they are transported northwest from Slovyansk, eastern Ukraine. The government said its troops wrested back Slovyansk from rebels on Saturday. (Dmitry Lovetsky/Associated Press)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-claims-victory-in-rebel-stronghold-of-slovyansk-1.2697356

[geek tragedy]

255. of course that's what they're saying, their side just murdered 300 people

so they are awfully desperate to deflect

[totodeinhere]

267. And now Putin is weighing in.

MOSCOW: Russian President Vladimir Putin has blamed the Ukrainian government for the crash of a Malaysian Airlines jet that was shot down over eastern Ukraine, killing all 295 people on board.

The government in Kiev is responsible for the fighting in eastern Ukraine between government troops and pro-Russian rebel forces which caused the downing of the civilian aircraft, Putin said at a cabinet meeting last night, according to a transcript released by the Kremlin. Putin has repeatedly denied Russian involvement in the fighting in Ukraine.
Vladimir Putin talks tough about MH17 and Kiev's alleged role in the tragedy.

Mr Putin said Ukraine bore responsibility for the downing of a passenger plane, saying it would not have happened if Kiev had not resumed a military campaign against separatists.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/vladimir-putin-blames-ukraine-for-mh17-tragedy-20140718-zua9b.html#ixzz37mOpH2VX

While we don't know officially yet who is responsible, you are right that it was probably the pro-Russian separatists. If this is confirmed I suspect that the Russians will take the tack indicated by Putin in this statement.

[geek tragedy]

269. yup. He can expect a massive new round of sanctions as a result. nt

[jakeXT]

249. Malaysia Airlines MH17 was flying just 1,000ft above restricted airspace

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was flying just 1,000 feet (300 metres) above restricted airspace when it was shot down, according to the European air traffic control body.

Eurocontrol said Ukrainian authorities had barred aircraft from ground level to 32,000 feet but the doomed aircraft was cruising at 33,000 feet, still within range of sophisticated ground-to-air weaponry, when it was hit. All flights in eastern Ukraine have now been barred from the area, Eurocontrol added.

"The aircraft was flying at Flight Level 330 [approximately 10,000 metres/33,000 ft] when it disappeared from the radar," said Eurocontrol. "This route had been closed by the Ukrainian authorities from ground to flight level 320 [32,000ft] but was open at the level at which the aircraft was flying."

It also emerged that as recently as a month ago British airlines were given the all-clear to overfly the area where flight MH17 was downed, after being told that operations were "normal" in the region.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-mh17-flying-just-above-restricted-airspace

[joshcryer]

256. Weird headline, the plane was flying almost as high as it could.

Certainly as high as normal operating procedure allowed. Could be read either way. Regardless it was in what was considered safe space.

[jakeXT]

257. 10000 ft more is possible

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_777

[joshcryer]

258. You really don't put a plane full of people at the service ceiling though.

I mean, I suppose another 5000 feet wouldn't have hurt.

But then the Buk could reach that altitude anyway, all the way up to the service ceiling. So there's nothing they could've really done. Wrong place, wrong time.

[jakeXT]

259. 40000 maybe

The Buk is a self-propelled, medium-range, medium-altitude surface-to-air missile system with a maximum range of 13 miles and a ceiling of 39,400 feet. With a semi-active radar homing guidance system and a 70-kilogram warhead, it’s entirely capable of hitting a large plane at 33,000 feet and causing a catastrophic decompression.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/somebody-shot-down-a-malaysian-airliner-over-eastern-ukraine-eb542e040570

[jakeXT]

299. Ukraine told MH17 to fly lower... Air India did fly at 40000 ft

Malaysia Airlines says they filed flight plan requesting 35 000ft through Ukraine airspace but instructed by Ukraine air traffic control to fly at 33 000ft.

http://www.news24.com/World/News/LIVE-Malaysia-Airlines-crash-20140718

The Air India 787 which was flying westwards was a full 7,000 feet higher at 40,000 feet at the Ukraine-Russia border because aircraft flying in opposite directions maintain different levels to avoid the danger of the mid-air collisions.

http://www.firstpost.com/world/an-air-india-flight-was-near-mh17-technology-nails-indian-ministrys-lie-1624417.html

[BlueCheese]

261. As I understand it...

The rebels behavior is something like this:

(Plane crashes.)
"Ha ha, we shot down one of your planes!"
(Reports that civilian airliner has crashed in that area.)
"The Ukrainian government shot down the plane!"

[joshcryer]

262. That is exactly what happened.

[R3druM]

301. Typical

[echochamberlain]

296. Putin's game up

The prickly narcissistic realpolitik of Putin has been exposed, with inevitable consequences: a direct chain of events and consequences to the Kremlin.