The plane was shot down -- U.S. view

[brooklynite]

Source: CNN

The plane was shot down -- U.S. view

A radar system saw a surface-to-air missile system turn on and track an aircraft right before MH17 was shot down, a senior US official tells CNN’s Barbara Starr.

A second system saw a heat signature at the time the airliner was hit, the official explained.

That leads the U.S. to conclude the Malaysian airline was shot down.

The U.S. is analyzing the trajectory of the missile to try to learn where the attack came from. The U.S. has not determined who was responsible, the source said.

Other senior US officials tell CNN’s Evan Perez and Elise Labott that the United States so far has “nothing to substantiate” Ukraine’s claims that pro-Russian separatists shot down the plane.


Read more: http://cnnworldlive.cnn.com/Event/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17?hpt=hp_t1

[dixiegrrrrl]

1. Oh my.......this is gonna get interesting.

Right about now everyone is running around covering their asses, concocting a story and looking for a fall guy.

Anybody wanna guess who?

I vote for Colonel Mustard in the Game room.

[Coventina]

23. Do you mean the Billiard Room?

*Clue Geek*

Of course, the weapon we already know.....
And, certainly not one from the standard game....

What an awful, awful day...

[bluestateguy]

2. Always release the bad news after the markets close

Well, maybe that's a reach, but it seems like that's a common pattern.

[Agschmid]

3. Also...

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101838653

[dixiegrrrrl]

4. SBU intercepts phone conversations of separatists admitting downing a civilian plane

(FULL TRANSCRIPT; VIDEO, an dPics, here:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

Reuters: Separatists in Ukraine say they have found flight recorder of downed airliner

Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was allegedly shot down by a group of Russian-backed Cossack militants near the village of Chornukhine, Luhansk Oblast, some 80 kilometers north-west of Donetsk, according to recordings of intercepted phone calls between Russian military intelligence officers and members of terrorist groups, released by the country’s security agency (SBU).

[Hulk]

7. Nice going, Putin. Keep those arms coming.

This is just downright sad and disgusting.

[Warpy]

5. Shot down or bombed

although if they were skirting heavy weather, that's also a remote possibility.

I think we need to wait for the investigation. That will turn up what, if anything, blew up that plane and knocked it out of the sky.

BBC reported earlier that both sides claimed it.

[geek tragedy]

9. there was a radar lock on the plane that coincided with its

destruction. so, most likely a separatist surface to air missile, and a fancy one at that.

[8 track mind]

30. probably an SA-5

Russia has LOTS of those mothballed since the Soviet days. Its high altitude and nasty fast....

[geek tragedy]

31. Buk's have been seen in the area, I don't believe s-200's have.

VERY unlikely Russia would be dumb enough to launch one from its own territory

[8 track mind]

35. you are right

According to reports it looks to be the SA-11, or Buk

[BlueEye]

10. At this time it's looking like it was shot down.

Multiple corroborated eyewitnesses saw a surface-to-air missile go up, and burning wreckage come down.

And at the cruising altitude of 33,000 ft, we're talking about serious missiles here. Not some toy like what Hamas is using, but a highly sophisticated, Russian-originated system.

[virgogal]

11. I heard that there was no burning wreckage coming down.

That there was no fire until it hit the ground.

[Fred Sanders]

14. That seems strange , if shot down by a huge missile, why then an explosion at one groundimpact area?

[Bosonic]

27. If you care to look around

There are lots of unpleasant photos/videos of dead passengers spread around geographically, indicative of break up in the air.

[onenote]

29. Because if the missile didn't hit the fuel tanks, they would explode when hitting the ground

and the missile didn't have to hit the fuel tanks to take down the plane.

By the way, a 777 has fuel tanks with a capacity of between 45,000 and 55,000 gallons. To give you some perspective, the 737 that most people fly for routine domestic hops has a fuel capacity of under 7,000 gallons.

When the fuel tanks on a 777 blow up, they make a very large explosion.

[passiveporcupine]

26. what I've read is that it came down all over the place.

It came apart in the air and pieces and body parts were falling into people's yards.

[jakeXT]

6. The intelligence sources didn't say whether the missile was fired by Ukrainian forces or pro-Russia

A Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU -2.17% plane carrying 295 passengers and crew came down Thursday while flying over the battle-torn east Ukraine region of Donetsk, after it was hit by what U.S. intelligence agencies said was a surface-to-air missile.

The intelligence sources didn't say whether the missile was fired by Ukrainian forces or pro-Russia separatist rebels.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/malaysia-airlines-loses-contact-with-plane-over-ukrainian-airspace-1405612373

[Adrahil]

12. It's prudent to be careful...

.... otoh, why would the Ukranians be shooting at a plane coming from the West? And why would they target such a large plane... the separatists haven't been using large cargo airplanes, or any planes really?

And we know the separatists have been shooting down Ukranian planes, including transport planes and yesterday, the Russians seem to have shot down a Ukrainian Su-25.

It's prudent to not jump to conclusions, but there seems to be a clear suspect.

[jakeXT]

15. They have been told the Russians are coming

Ukraine Says Russian Plane Shot Down Its Fighter Jet

MOSCOW — The Ukrainian government said on Thursday that a Russian military plane had shot down a Ukrainian fighter jet in Ukrainian airspace the previous evening, a serious allegation of direct intervention by Russia’s armed forces.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/world/europe/ukraine-says-russian-plane-shot-down-its-fighter-jet.html?_r=1

[Adrahil]

32. But a large jet... at 30,000 ft.... coming from the west? Not a chance. NT

[Fred Sanders]

16. It is one unnamed source, and one unnamed source never used to be news.

[jakeXT]

17. Sources, but hey... it's the Judith Miller paper /nt

[herding cats]

8. A bit more on this here

US confirms MH17 was shot down

MH17 "was shot down" and there "may have been American citizens on board", US vice-president Joe Biden has said in Detroit.

Senior US officials has told the Wall Street Journal and CNN that a surface-to-air missile shot down MH17.

As explained by Barbara Starr on CNN, US intelligence had found a heat signature from "a massive event" and "information from intelligence assets" confirming the use of a surface-to-air missile system.

"Information from intelligence assets that a surface to air missile system … was tracking an object, they believe it was the object. There was at racking of the aircraft from a surface-to-air missile system."

"[US intelligence has] another asset that gives them a heat signature, an infrared heat signature that tells them there was a massive event … they put both of these pieces of information together and concluded that the plane was shot down.

"What they don't know and what they're doing now is putting that trajectory together backwards

"Was it the Russian side of the border? Was it the Ukrainian side of the border? What the launch point was, that remains the big question."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live#block-53c83451e4b01dcef5b4b592

[Fred Sanders]

18. Full context of Biden statement:

"A Malaysian aircraft, heading from western Europe to Kuala Lumpur, as it crossed the border of Ukraine and Russia, apparently, and I say apparently because we don't have all the details, and I want to be sure of what I'm saying, apparently had been shot down. Shot down, not an accident. Blown out of the sky."

[ballyhoo]

13. The US did the same thing to Iran Air Flight 655..Their

response was more or less and "oops".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

[Agschmid]

19. It's important to remember that incident as this one continues.

[ballyhoo]

22. Yes. The US response once the shooter is known should be interesting.

[Fred Sanders]

20. And America has to this day denied responsibility.......

"The event generated a great deal of controversy and criticism of the United States. Some analysts have blamed U.S. military commanders and the captain of Vincennes for reckless and aggressive behavior in a tense and dangerous environment.[5][6]

In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice.[7] As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million, an average of $213,103 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims. However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran.[8]

To this day, Iran Air still uses flight number IR655 on the Tehran–Dubai route as a memorial to the victims, contrary to the informal convention amongst many other airlines that discontinue flight numbers associated with tragedies."

[ballyhoo]

21. Yes. I read that. I just wonder whether this will keep the

US from getting too sanctimonious over the Ukraine shooting. I'm investigating the possibility of a third group having done the shooting, one that needed quick diversion from other matters. But it will be difficult because everyone is afraid to say anything. Thanks for your comment, Fred. I read a lot of your posts and mostly agree with you.

[jakeXT]

25. The commander got a medal

In the immediate aftermath the ship`s commanding officer, Capt. Will Rogers, sent a message to his superiors, saying, ``The order to fire is a burden I will carry for the rest of my life.``

The Navy investigated and concluded that ``stress . . . and unconscious distortion of data may have played a major role in this incident.`` Although no disciplinary action was recommended, the finding did not fully absolve the actions of the officers responsible.

Behold, two years later, the Navy`s ultimate disposition of the tragedy:

``The president of the United States takes pleasure in presenting the Legion of Merit to Capt. Will C. Rogers III, U.S. Navy, for service as set forth in the following citation:

``For exceptionally . . . outstanding service as commanding officer, USS Vincennes from April 1987 to May 1989 . . . .


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1990-04-06/news/9001280334_1_uss-vincennes-iranian-airbus-rogers

[ballyhoo]

28. Sweet Jesus..........

[Swede Atlanta]

24. We need to take a step back......

In the immediate aftermath of a tragedy like this we need to be cautious about assigning blame. We need to let the investigation continue. The investigation will be very difficult given the circumstances with tensions between Ukraine, the separatists and the Russians.

Early evidence suggests this was a surface to air missile but its source has not been identified. There is a lot of evidence to collect before a picture of the event becomes clear.

I would suggest before we start pointing fingers anywhere we show some respect for the lives of nearly 300 passengers that were lost. Those passengers were parents, children, siblings, aunts, uncles, grandparents, grand children, etc. Lives will be irreparably changed by the events of this violence.

I noted on a CNN blog today people were immediately blaming Obama for this because he was "leading from behind" and wasn't forceful in Syria and Crimea. Now is not the time to engage in petty political mud slinging.

[blkmusclmachine]

33. Sad

[James48]

34. Reuters is now reporting 23 Americans were on board. n/t