MH17: Separatists block crash site access as evidence grows against them

[Bosonic]

Last edited Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: The Guardian

President Barack Obama threatened to "increase the costs" on Russia if Moscow fails to deescalate the situation in Ukraine, as US and other western officials said there was mounting evidence that a missile fired by Russia-backed separatists downed the Malaysian Airlines jet which crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday.

All sides have called for a thorough and impartial investigation into what caused the crash, which killed all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board MH17, en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. However, the first group of international investigators on the scene were involved in a tense standoff with the armed separatists who control the crash site at Grabovo.

A unit of heavily armed rebels blocked the 30-strong team from the OSCE, cordoning off a large part of the crash site. The inspectors retreated after an hour-long standoff, having been unable to gain access. They were sent on their way by warning shots fired by the rebel unit commander.

"We will keep coming back tomorrow and the next day and the next day," said spokesman Michael Bociurkiw. "Tomorrow will be a crunch day. There are a lot of experts from the Netherlands and Malaysia gathering in Kiev as well as relatives. The bodies are starting to bloat and decay. An expert team is clearly needed. There is a lot to be done in a short amount of time."

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/mh17-crash-pro-russia-rebels-block-access-ukraine

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OSCE on #MH17 crash site: bodies lying everywhere decomposed, some burnt, others mangled together. Nobody removing them for cold storage.

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490216432253140992

OSCE have no idea who is controlling #MH17 crash site. Appears to be several small rebel groups with no leader. Fate of black boxes unknown.

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490216599278731264

OSCE unable to access all but a small area of #MH17 crash site due to aggressive armed rebel guards. "Some looked slightly intoxicated."

https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/490217113559498752

[heaven05]

1. animals

rabid animals. The human turned into an animal as these 'separatists' are, is a vicious, cruel animal with not one redeeming characteristic. May hell, if there is one, be their reward.

[Coventina]

13. I think you're insulting rabid animals.

Rabid animals are out of their minds with pain and sickness.

These guys....made a CHOICE.

I agree with your sentiments. These guys are scum (I think I just insulted scum!)

[geek tragedy]

2. I wonder what the Putin-humpers will say about this. nt

[William769]

3. Seems like all the Putinista's have gone into hiding today.

Or are in some backroom coming up with more propaganda.

[FiveGoodMen]

15. What constitutes a Putinista?

Is it anyone who's ever agreed with a single statement that he's made?

Come on, who at DU is really an admirer of Putin?

[Throd]

16. I could provide 5 or 6 names.

[William769]

17. Seriously?

Apparently you do not read much here or either pay attention.

[CreekDog]

30. here's an example of a DU poster trying to say that the anti gay law wasn't as bad as it is

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=559235

[groundloop]

4. it really seems that Putin has blood on his hands over this

It was reported yesterday shortly after the crash that Russian backed separatists had claimed they downed a 'transport plane', then abruptly killed the link to that. If so, IMO that sounds like a pretty strong indictment.

[SkyDaddy7]

21. Yes, they were boasting about shooting down a plane on Twitter....

at the same time as the Malaysia flight was shot down. Then they deleted the Tweet.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian-ukrainian-rebel-leader-claims-shoot-down-of-malaysia-airlines-jet/

[lanlady]

23. he sure does

Hopefully, the civilized world will see Putin for what he is -- a thug and a psychopath.

[herding cats]

5. "They were sent on their way by warning shots fired by the rebel unit commander."

The last thing these cretins need to be doing is firing "warning shots" at the OSCE observers. It's bad enough they won't let them in to do their jobs.

[PM Martin]

6. When you say "pro-Russian separatists", that means Putin's thugs.

The separatists are dirty. They are blocking the site because they know they murdered 300 innocent civilians.

[snagglepuss]

11. Exactly nt

[atreides1]

7. I was wrong

It looks more and more as if they did shoot that plane down...but I don't know if it was a deliberate action or if some idiot watching a blip on radar fat fingered the launch button!

Either way, 295 people are dead because somebody screwed up!

[Bad Thoughts]

9. They intended to shoot down a plane: it was intentional

The fact that they screwed up the ID on the plane is immaterial. They are not better than someone who shoots their daughter when they suspect there is a burglar in the house.

[joshcryer]

14. They failed to correctly identify their target.

It was intentional, but a mistake. A massive screw up.

[Igel]

26. That's a really big fine line people have trouble with.

Just saying it is difficult.

They intentionally shot down a plane. Quite possibly that plane--the big metal thing up in the sky.

They almost certainly did not intend to shoot down a passenger liner.

They shot down the thing they intended, but it wasn't actually what they intended to shoot down.

Well, most probably. I'm okay with saying the rebels probably shot it down, that's the way the evidence is pointing right now. But I'm not going to lose sleep over it if it turns out that the Russians did it from their territory (I consider these two things to be pretty much equivalent) or that it was even a Ukrainian soldier who fired the missile. Even though I put that last option a distant third.

[joshcryer]

27. I don't understand it.

No one is ever saying they intentionally and purposefully targeted the plane. But when people do say that they call it a false flag and that the CIA did it or the Ukraine government did it!

So it's basically impossible to acknowledge a potential mistake, but easy to believe a CT of enormous proportions!

[SkyDaddy7]

22. It was obvious they shot it down from the start...

They were bragging about shooting down a plane at the same time as the Malaysia flight was blown out of the sky...Even going so far as to brag on Twitter & then like all guilty parties they tried to delete the Tweet once they realized they had shot down a civilian airliner! That never goes well & usually points to guilt.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pro-russian-ukrainian-rebel-leader-claims-shoot-down-of-malaysia-airlines-jet/

[riqster]

8. My thoughts from early today:

Like it or not, Putin is Responsible for the MH17 Crash

Oh, pity the poor Putinistas (like, say, Sarah Palin). They marvel over the shirtless bear-wrestling macho exploits of Russia’s “elected” leader and praise him for good things he has not done, and ignore the bad things he has done. And the ex-KGB butcher has committed some truly heinous acts.

So now, some inhuman motherfuckers have shot down a civilian airliner over Ukraine. Pro-Russian insurgents initially took credit for this barbarous act, until they realized that murdering hundreds of innocents (including women and children) made them look bad in the press. Now they claim otherwise.

OK, so maybe Putin’s pet terrorists aren’t responsible for this one particular war crime. But it’s important to remember that Putin is the reason for the Ukraine crisis. Were it not for the greed and imperialist actions of Putin and his stooges, there would have been no war in Eastern Ukraine, and thus no missiles lying about to be shot at Malaysia Air flight MH17.

At what point will the Wingnuts of the world wise up? Pooty-Poot is a demon in wolf’s clothing. He needs to be in a cell at The Hague, awaiting a long-overdue trial for his many crimes against humanity.

If you don’t agree, well, just read about and look at the horrific scene of destruction and mass murder in Ukraine.
Ask yourself if you are OK with such crimes, just because the perpetrator happens to be the darling du jour of various extremist pundits and politicians.

[Igel]

28. I can find things to admire in Putin.

Keep in mind that I've been anti-Putin since 1999 when he ran for office. I thought Bush II insane for "looking into eyes" and seeing his soul or however he put it.

I said things about Obama that would have gotten me banned from DU with the whole "reset" crock if I had posted them. Obama basically said, "Okay, I'm going to give you a pass for at least a year and even pretend that you're a good guy. You don't need to deceive and manipulate me, I can do that myself because it's politically profitable."

Even the sarin-gas mess with Assad was pretty neat. Putin managed to get Obama to be the one to save Assad's butt, at the same time getting Obama out of the trap Obama laid for himself. A few months later the Russian press was full of praise for Assad. Why? Because Russian was made an obligatory second language in Syrian schools, thus showing that Syrian wants to be the Russian World's outpost in the Arab world. You can't make up this crap.

Putin took over when the Russian unemployment rate was high and the country in trouble. All the leading indicators looked good. Unemployment was beginning to fall. And corruption had declined. What Eltsyn was doing was working, but the problem was it was late and Putin got all the credit. And while corruption skyrocketed under him, he understood Russians better than El'tsyn. The trains ran on time. Enemies were found to do what Russians needed--stop blaming themselves and, with internal enemies there was something they could do to help themselves and with external enemies there was a strong motivation to band together. He gave cover to the oligarchs and leashed them. He returned to the USSR's narrative of a great empire whose crowning achievement was WWII and industrialization, but mostly WWII--the single-handed fight against fascism and the preservation of true Orthodoxy. The male life expectancy levelled out and has increased. If you're a pure materialist, Putin's been good for the country. (If you have any sense of moral decency, he's an insane maniac.)

Now loyalty to him is a problem. And that whole "single-handed fight against fascism" schtick has landed Ukraine in trouble and handed him absurdly high political approval ratings. He continues to play off internal and external enemies as the source of all the problems. One legislator even said that the Moscow subway wreck a week ago was the fault of the Americans--after all, an American consulting company had been involved and obviously sabotaged it to kill off good, hardworking Russians. NATO is an enemy--as part of an exchange program it makes resources available to high school and institutions of higher learning, most notably language faculties. A fifth column "zombifying" their kids (the guy had to coin a word for that).

All the isolation that's being heaped on Putin, however, is of dubious worth. He doesn't want the economy to crash. BRICS might mitigate the sanctions. However, economic hardship binds the Russians, at least the older ones, together. It gives them a cause, fighting the enemy. They know that Lenin was internationalist and socialism had to be all or nothing in the world, but Stalin had the heretical idea of "socialism in one country". If Russia's isolated, that's okay. Been there, done that.

One legislator's even pushed for returning to 5-year plans. Don't know if that bill passed the Duma.

[Iliyah]

10. No worries, now many of the lover of anything Putin is now focused

on how manly Reagan is over girly Pres O and how manly R would have handled the crisis all over the universe.

[geek tragedy]

18. no, 'we' don't

That's still up to Ukraine. Which I am quite sure will have little trouble disposing of this band of little monsters now that the big monster can't help them

[rdking647]

19. the us and western europe should annonce the folowwing sanctions

given that the separatists are backed and armed by russia the west should announce the folloiwng.
ALL russian aircraft are prohibited from landing at western airports. in addition all western airlines are prohibited from flying to russia

these sanctions will continue until the separatists,including their leader who tweeted about downing the plane are delivered to the international court of justice in the hague to face trial for mass murder.

if russia says we cant get them to surrender,tough shit. they provided the means to shoot the plane down,now they suffer the consequences

[wtmusic]

20. bravo.

[Blue_Tires]

24. what about codeshare agreements?

I don't think there is any legal authority to tell Delta to immediately stop their partnership with Aeroflot...

[Amonester]

32. Not to forget, Astronauts in orbit inside the ISS.

Would Effin Putin shoot them down too? (Or let them die there?)

[Blue_Tires]

25. Something has to be done...

According to the BBC, the bodies haven't even been removed and are starting to decay...

[Igel]

29. This is true.

Before we rush to judgement, though, there are problems.

They just restored power to the area today. It had been knocked out. By whom, I don't know. Often there's a story saying that "shelling" or "an explosion" knocks out power or water. Sometimes the problem happens right where the rebel front lines are, so it's likely a Ukrainian shell that does it. Sometimes it's a rebel shell. Sometimes it happens in the middle of nowhere and you have to think it's a false-flag operation. "Power's out here because of a Right Sector diversionary group--see, they hate you, fight with us. Plus the power to your mine is down so it's not like you have a job now anyway, and we'll pay you to volunteer." It's a win/win for the rebels.

Refrigerators need power.

But you also need refrigerators. They have to be arranged for, brought in.

You need teams to be allowed to the site. Reports are that the more the rebels feel embattled and blamed, the less access they're providing. The leaders of the DPR have things to do, too besides deal with this issue. And it is an issue because while Strelkov sort of commands the military, he coordinates with those under him and they don't always follow orders. As the "commander in chief" his commandership is a bit shakey. In some ways he's just the first among equals.

But that's okay--they're starting to decay? Strelkov's claim is that most of them were dead long before the plane took off. So he has that covered. Risibly, diaphanously, but covered.

[Herself]

31. just starting to bloat? After all this time????

I knew the reports and claims that there was debri and sounds of the black box pinger was false. It's well known what happened to that plane.

Something tells me that the plane was hijacked , and recently shot down. Bodies don't go this long and "just start to bloat" and decay.

[Amonester]

33. ...

[IronGate]

36. Something tells you that the plane was hijacked?

What? The voices in your head?
Bodies do start to bloat and decay within a day or two depending on the environmental conditions.
Ask me how I know.

BTW, your post belongs here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1135

[EX500rider]

39. ".....and recently shot down."

Yes it was recently shot down, that's why it's on the ground in eastern Ukraine. No it was not hijacked and what "something" tells you that it was? lol

[Herself]

41. my bad, I thought it was the malasian air liner that went missing in March. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. I think you're mistaking MH370 that disappeared in March in SE Asia with MH17 on Thursday

Shot down over Ukraine. You have heard of that news, haven't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17

[ButterflyBlood]

34. I've said it before: These separatists are no better than al-Qaeda

And should be treated accordingly.

[GusBob]

35. blow up the vodka factories

They are drunk

[Sunlei]

38. Thats what some Journalists there said, they're all drunk!

[Sunlei]

37. Putin get your people OUT so the Families can gather the remains of the hundreds of their dead!!