With Ukraine route off-limits, Malaysia Airlines plane flies over Syria instead

[jakeXT]

Source: Reuters

Published Monday, Jul. 21 2014, 8:44 AM EDT

Last updated Monday, Jul. 21 2014, 8:54 AM EDT

Malaysia Airlines rerouted a Kuala Lumpur-to-London flight over Syrian airspace on Sunday after its usual route over Ukraine was closed, flight tracking data showed on Monday.

...

After Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down last Thursday by a ground-to-air missile in eastern Ukraine, airlines began to avoid the airspace below which the Ukrainian military has been fighting with Russian-backed rebels.

On Friday and Saturday the Kuala Lumpur-London flight, MH4, had taken a different route over eastern Turkey, tracking data showed.

The change in route on Sunday highlights the challenge that airlines face in finding conflict-free passageways on the congested routes between Asia and Europe. Hundreds of flights routinely crossed over Ukraine before Thursday’s incident, and it is not unusual for international airlines to overfly war zones such as Syria or Afghanistan.

Read more: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/with-ukraine-route-off-limits-malaysia-airlines-plane-flies-over-syria-instead/article19688658/

---

[EEO]

1. Huh, this story isn't from the Onion... How about that...

[gcomeau]

3. Why would it be from the Onoin?

The FAA hasn't declared Syrian airspace no-fly... lots of carriers regularly overfly it.

[magical thyme]

15. Maybe because there is a civil war there too?

There are a number of routes they could take with less chance of getting mistaken for a military flight.

[gcomeau]

16. It is completely routine procedure to overfly conflict zones.

Happens every single day. Lots. The FAA determines no fly areas, and Syria isn't one of them. They probably have dozens if not hundreds of overflights a day.

[magical thyme]

18. that hasn't stopped it from sparking an outcry

and in view of the fact that they just lost a commercial plane, it's not real good PR

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/syria-fly-over-sparks-new/1276074.html

KUALA LUMPUR: Embattled Malaysia Airlines faced fresh outrage on Tuesday as it confirmed one of its planes flew over war-torn Syria, just days after the MH17 disaster laid bare the risks civilian aircraft face in flying over war zones.

The Malaysian flag carrier confirmed that flight MH004, bound from London for Kuala Lumpur on Sunday, re-routed over Syria following the closure of the flight's usual route over Ukraine in the wake of the MH17 tragedy three days earlier.


They cited ICAO clearance for the route, and noted that several major carriers used the well-traveled Europe-Asia path up until the MH17 attack, though some other airlines had abandoned it months ago.

[dixiegrrrrl]

19. FAA pertains only to USA flights.

Foreign airlines have different accountability.

[former9thward]

23. This is Malaysian Air.

The FAA has no jurisdiction over it. It does not determine its flight path.

[gcomeau]

24. Pretty much everyone follows the FAAs lead on things like this.

If the FAA hasn't called an area not safe to fly through you're not going to find many other authorities that will.

And the bottom line is I'm not aware of anyone besides some middle eastern regional airlines calling Syria a no fly right now. Are you?


As far as Malaysian air or a GREAT MANY other commercial carriers are concerned there is nothing particularly noteworthy about the path that flight took.,.. except for the fact that an uninformed general public had it brought to their attention with none of the background information to give it proper context and freaked out over it.

[former9thward]

25. They have lost two jets in the last few months.

And they have withheld information in both of them. Only a fool would fly with them.

[gcomeau]

28. Which has exactly nothing to do...

...with people freaking out over "OMG!!! They flew over Syria!!!"

[onehandle]

2. Wow! I would have insisted on the new route to start with.

You couldn't get me to fly over Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, or China on a bet.

The Middle East is unstable, true. But the other path flies over much more unstable people with much more sophisticated weapons.

Much more weapons, period.

[Louisiana1976]

26. True.

[FrodosPet]

29. It would be a LOT longer, but maybe everyone can fly over North America?

I'm not seeing any really safe practical routes flying west to east by your criteria.

[OnlinePoker]

4. What could possibly go wrong? n/t

[JackRiddler]

5. Geez, why can't they go over Iran?

[daleo]

6. That has been known to have its problems too

After all, civilian flights have been shot down accidentally, in the vicinity of Iran.

[JackRiddler]

20. No.

In 1988 during a U.S. naval operation related to the Iran-Iraq war, one civilian Iran Air flight was shot down accidentally by a missile fired from a U.S. warship. There is not remotely such a situation in Iran today.

[mainer]

7. So how are they supposed to get to southeast Asia?

For all those who were criticizing the route over Ukraine, are you happier sending these flights over Iraq and Syria? Maybe Afghanistan and Pakistan would make you happier?

[happyslug]

8. Could take the train.

http://www.london-to-singapore.co.uk/trip-idea-london-to-singapore-by-train/

It is possible to go from London to Ho Chin Minh City (Saigon) in Vietnam by train. You have to catch a bus from Ho Chin Minh City to go through Cambodia to catch the train in Thailand, OR take a bus from Hanoi through Laos to get to a different train station in Thailand.



Trains from London to Moscow, leaves daily, Three day trip.

http://www.seat61.com/Russia.htm#London to Moscow by train: Options

London to Moscow:

Day 1: Travel from London to Brussels by Eurostar, leaving London St Pancras daily except Saturdays at 15:04, arriving Brussels Midi at 18:05. On Saturdays, depart London at 12:58 arriving Brussels Midi at 16:08. Advice on connections in Brussels or watch the video.

Day 1: Travel from Brussels to Cologne by ICE high-speed train leaving Brussels Midi at 18:25 and arriving Cologne at 20:15. On Saturdays you can also take the earlier 17:28 Thalys train arriving Cologne at 19:15. You've time for dinner in Cologne.

Day 1: Travel from Cologne to Warsaw overnight on the EuroNight sleeper train Jan Kiepura, leaving Cologne at 22:28 and arriving Warsaw Centralna at 12:15 next day (day 2). The Jan Kiepura has modern air-conditioned Polish sleeping-cars (1 & 2-berth deluxe rooms with private toilet & shower plus TV/DVD player, 1, 2 & 3-berth standard rooms with washbasin, hot shower at end of the corridor, CCTV security, highly recommended), modern couchettes (more basic sleeping accommodation in 4-berth & 6-berth compartments), and reclining seats (not recommended). The sleeper fare includes complimentary toiletries pack and morning tea or coffee and croissant. An InterCity cafe car is attached in the morning (daily except Sunday mornings) for breakfast, but there's no catering car in the evening so feel free to take your own picnic, wine or beer on board! More photos & information about the Jan Kiepura sleeper train.

Spend some time in Warsaw, see the Warsaw Centralna station & city information.

Day 2: Travel from Warsaw to Moscow on the sleeper train Polonez, leaving Warsaw Centralna station at 16:10 and arriving Moscow Byelorruski station at 12:53 next day (day 3 from London). The Polonez arrives in Moscow an hour earlier between the last Sunday in March and the last Sunday in October, when most European clocks are put forward an hour but Russia's aren't. Map of Warsaw showing location of Warsaw Centralna & Gdanska stations.

The Polonez is operated with one set of Russian sleeping-cars and one Polish set, so you stand a 50:50 chance of getting either country's train, but both sets feature 1st class 2-bed and 2nd class 3-bed compartments with carpet and washbasin, see the photos of the Polish train below.

Russian track gauge is 5', but most of Europe (including the UK) is 4' 8½", so at Brest on the Belarus frontier the sleeping-cars are shunted into a shed, each car is separated and jacked up to have its bogies (wheelsets) changed. You remain on board while this is done, quite an experience. Once in Russia, the scenery is rolling hills, birch tree forests, and villages of small wooden houses. Approaching Moscow, you may catch a glimpse of the plaques on the station building marked '1812' and '1942' as the train passes through the small station of historic Borodino... Map of Moscow showing Byelorruski station.

http://www.seat61.com/Russia.htm

Then from Moscow, you take the Trans-Siberian, a six day trip, please note, this train only runs twice a week so be careful to match up your London to Moscow trip with the Trans-Siberian. Thus make sure you get to Moscow before Tuesday or Saturday night

http://www.seat61.com/Trans-Siberian.htm#.U83JVeNdXng

At Peking/Beijing you have to take another train to Hanoi Vietnam. Once in Hanoi you would have been on the train 12 days (if you made all connections, remember every train EXCEPT the Trans-Siberian goes every day, the Trans-Siberian goes only twice a week).

This train runs twice weekly. The train departs from Beijing West Station at 16:16 every Sunday and Thursday and arrives at Hanoi at 08:10 two days later.

http://www.chinahighlights.com/travelguide/transportation/beijing-to-hanoi-train.htm

Some confusion as to the train from Beijing to Hanoi. Once source says it is NOT in operation, but then says it is. What seems to be the case is you can go to Hanoi by train, but near the border you have to switch trains. Vietnam only uses one meter gauge trains (a standard gauge is being built).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan%E2%80%93Vietnam_Railway


Please note, all railroads in Vietnam, Laos, Thailand and Singapore are meter gauge (1000 mm) not standard Gauge (1425mm or 4'8 1/2').


At Hanoi you have a choice, go by bus to Vientiane in Laos, it is a two day trip but runs every day, total to Bangkok 14 days from London (if you made all connections).

http://www.seat61.com/Laos.htm#.U83SqONdXng


At Vientiane, Laos, you have to take a local bus to the train station 12 KM away at Thanaleng or Nong Khaior both option are daily trains and then go to Bangkok. It is about a 13 hour trip.

http://www.seat61.com/Laos.htm#.U83SqONdXng

http://www.seat61.com/Laos.htm#.U83SqONdXng


The second choice is to take the train to Ho Chi Minh City. It is a three day trip between Hanoi and Ho Chin Minh City:

http://www.seat61.com/Vietnam.htm#Southbound timetable

You have to go by bus to Phnom Penh Cambodia:

Departures are from De Tham Street early in the morning. You can also connect to Phnom Penh with Sinh Cafe's daily bus (08:45, $12, arriving at 16:00). Open tour companies such as Sinh and its rival Hanh Cafe have updated their fleet of coaches, and 'sleeper' buses now operate on most routes. Your own space to lie down on the top or bottom bunk is a vast improvement for the long road journeys sufferable in Vietnam.

http://www.travelfish.org/transport/vietnam/saigon_and_surrounds/ho_chi_minh_city/ho_chi_minh_city/all

In Cambodia they brag about "Fully Pave Roads" which is kind of scary.....

It is located on the fully paved National Highway 5 which runs to Sisophon and then further on the south side of the Tonle Sap Lake to Battambang and Phnom Penh

http://wikitravel.org/en/Poipet

Saigon ► Bangkok

Option 1: The fastest journey from Saigon to Bangkok takes 2 days, 1 night. Day 1, travel from Saigon to Siem Reap on a direct morning bus, see here for details. Stay the night in Siem Reap. Day 2, take road transport to the border at Poipet and the afternoon train from Aranyaprathet to Bangkok, details here. This won't give you any time to see the Angkor temples, so I'd suggest extending the journey to 3 days to give 2 nights and one full day in Siem Reap to visit Angkor.

Option 2: Here is a less hectic option, taking 3 days, 2 nights and avoiding the long 12 hour bus ride from Saigon to Siem Reap required in option 1. I also highly recommend the speedboat ride along the river from Phnom Penh to Siem Reap. Day 1, travel from Saigon to Phnom Penh on a direct morning bus (6.5 hours), see here for details. Afternoon and over night stop in Phnom Penh. Day 2, take a bus (5 hours, details here) or better, the river speedboat (6.5 hours, details here) from Phnom Penh to Siem Reap. Afternoon in Siem Reap. Day 3, in the morning take road transport to the border at Poipet and then take the afternoon train from Aranyaprathet to Bangkok, details here. Doing this route in 3 days will only give you a few hours to snatch a quick glimpse at Angkor Wat, so I'd recommend stretching it to 4 days to give 2 nights and one full day in Siem Reap to visit the Angkor temples.

Either option can be done for as little as $39, hotels extra, or around $64 if you use the Phnom Penh-Siem Reap speedboat instead of the bus.

http://www.seat61.com/Cambodia.htm#Bangkok-Saigon

Via Ho Chi Minh City the trip is 17 days from London to Bangkok.

Once you get to Bangkok it is an quick and easy trip to Singapore by train. It is a three day trip. First you take train #35 at 14:40 (2:40 in the afternoon) to Butterworth, You arrived at Butterworth at 13:30 (1:30 in the afternoon) the next day then transfer to train #1 to Singapore, which leave Butteworth the NEXT day at 8:00 in the morning and arrives in Singapore at 22:00 (10:00 at night).

http://www.seat61.com/Thailand.htm#Singapore

http://www.seat61.com/Thailand.htm#Aranyaprathet

Now, since the mid 1990s, they have been SERIOUS discussion to open up train connections between Thailand and Vietnam and/or China. It appears to be built. China is building a Standard Gauge Rail line to Vietnam then to Laos then to Singapore. Construction through Laos began in December of 2013. This will be a Standard Gauge Rail system, complementing the existing meter gauge system.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunming%E2%80%93Singapore_Railway

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/laos/10572583/Chinas-120mph-railway-arriving-in-Laos.html

I do recommend you look into a tramp steamer in Ho Chi Minh City, Yes it is still possible to go by a freighter.

http://www.shipsandcruises.com/freightertravel.htm

Thus it is possible, a little difficult, but possible to go from London to Singapore by Train, takes 2-3 weeks, but you will NOT get shot down.

[joshcryer]

10. You did way too much research on that post.

But it's nice to know the options.

[happyslug]

11. I just got caught up in the subject

Given the expansion of the Chinese Railroads, to and through Vietnam and Laos, a direct train line from London to Singapore MAY be place by 2020. It would be a combination of several trains, Singapore to Bangkok, Bangkok to Hanoi, Hanoi to Beijing, Beijing to Moscow, Moscow to Paris (with a transfer to London, probably from Brussels). I do not see such a route becoming ONE route, but connections will be encouraged.

The routes will be mostly local routes, but some people will take them all the way.

[joshcryer]

13. I like it.

I read the whole thing, so it wasn't lost on anyone, I think it's fascinating. I'd have you do the rest of the world, as it would be, but I wouldn't want to bother you with it. And anyway, there appears to be a place offering such trips, where there is rail anyway: http://www.greatrail.com/

The price tag for their "circumnavigate" trip is pretty steep though: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/31/travel/round-the-world-rail-journey/

Can't find the details on their site though, apparently it's not up yet as far as I can see. It's a shame that as of yet there doesn't appear to be a global mostly connected rail. Would be cool to be able to do that.

[happyslug]

30. What gulls me is the cost from London to Moscow was only £619 in a sleeper

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/journeysbyrail/9683583/Around-the-world-by-rail-part-one-London-to-Moscow.html

Now the Sleeper is from Cologne to Warsaw and then from Warsaw to Moscow. £949 if you want first class from London to Cologne. This is the price paid by the Telegraph for its article,

Miles from London to Cologne is 307.99 miles or 495.65 Kilometers. Price is 59 Euros

https://loco2.com/journey/london-cologne-hh697

Cologne to Warsaw the distance is 1759.KM that is 1093.3 miles (Euro 93.50)

https://loco2.com/journey/cologne-warsaw-pb8qkw

Warsaw to Moscow the distance is Miles: 714.23. Kilometers: 1149.41. Price $259 (In US Dollars) including a Sleeper:

http://www.expresstorussia.com/warsaw-moscow-train.html

Total mileage by train London to Moscow, 2551 miles For 153.50 Euro and $259. or $465.70 US Dollars (assuming an exchange rate of 1 Euro equal $1.35 dollars, thus 153.50 Euro equals $206.70 US Dollars). The Price of $619 used by the Telegraph included two overnights stays in hotels, one in Cologne the other in Warsaw.

Moscow to Beijing is $792 US Dollars. Please remember the Trans-Mongolia only goes once a week, but the trans-Manchuria, run by China on the same route, also goes once a week (thus you have two trains per week).

http://www.expresstorussia.com/russian_train_tickets.html?from=Moscow&to=Beijing&date=01.08.2014#RES

The fare from Beijing to Hanoi is $347 US Dollars

http://www.chinatraintickets.net/china-trains/train-booking.asp

From Hanoi to Ho Chi Minh city the fare is $94.00"

https://vietnam-railway.com/train/route/train-from-hanoi-to-ho-chi-minh-city

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/china-trains/international-timetable.htm

Thus from London to Moscow it is $465, to Beijing it is $792, from Beijing to Hanoi it is $94. Total $1351.00

It cost either $39 by bus, or $69 by speed boat to get to Bangkok (Neither is direct, you transfer between buses OR from the Speed boat to a bus to get to BangkoK9.

Assuming Speed Boat, $1420 to get to Bangkok. $80 fare from Bangkok to Singapore. Total of $1500 not including Hotel Stays, food and bribes ( I do advise you tip well).


What galls me that Amtrak is higher price:


The Capital Limited from Washington DC to Chicago is only 780 miles but costs $488 in a sleeper.

The Empire Builder form Portland and Seattle to Chicago is 2255 From Portland Oregon, and 2205 from Seattle Washington, and $911 in a sleeper. Thus it is cheaper to go by train from London to Moscow, then Portland Oregon to Chicago, even through the later is shorter. Technically Amtrak permit yous to ride for only $174 dollars, but that is just a seat NOT a Sleeper. The above price for London to Moscow was mostly in sleepers (and included two overnights in hotels, one on Cologne the other in Warsaw).

[JackRiddler]

21. I have a new dream.

This would be an amazing trip. During your research, did you figure out the total train cost? Also, assuming one has the time... who needs to sync'em up. Might as well spend a few days enjoying various stops.

[Louisiana1976]

27. That would be an interesting trip, though time-consuming.

[davidpdx]

9. Right, there is really no safe route anymore

The only few choices would be to fly up over Burma, Bangladesh, and Bhutari, and over China then through Kazakhstan, Russia, Belarus, and Poland. That is a hell of an end around though. The other way if they could get permission to fly over Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt might be better.

[happyslug]

12. You can take London to NYC, NYC to Seattle, Seattle to Anchorage, etc.

London to Singapore is 6,736 miles over Asia


London to Anchorage over the Arctic is only 4,469 miles

Anchorage to Singapore is 6705.2 Miles

Total of 11,174.2


London to Miami is 4,425 mi,

from Miami to Singapore the distance is 10,536 mi.

Total of 14,961 miles



Thus you have options, but for London going over Asia is almost half the distance of any other option.

[davidpdx]

14. No, thanks on that one

11 hours in a tin can is enough. Damn cramped seats make you feel like you are a sardine. The only "relief" is to go to the bathroom and stand in there for awhile (pun intended).

Thankfully I'm flying toward the US from Asia soon and most of it will be over the Pacific Ocean and it sure as hell won't be on Malaysian Air. You'd have to be suicidal to fly on that airline.

[JackRiddler]

22. Look at the map.

There's a similarly straight route over Iran avoiding all of your mentioned countries (even Pakistan, if you wanted) right in between the two depicted.

[jakeXT]

31. With Boeing cozying up to Iran.... maybe

Boeing Secures Agreement to Sell Parts to Iran

LONDON— Boeing Co. BA -0.65% has agreed to the conditions by which it could sell aircraft spare parts to state-owned Iran Air, a move that could lead to the first sale of products by a U.S. aerospace company to the Islamic republic since 1979.

In a filing to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission late Wednesday, the Chicago-based commercial aircraft manufacturer said it had "entered into an agreement and engaged in related discussions with Iran Air" setting forth the general conditions by which it will sell airplane parts and other safety-related equipment.

Although Boeing hasn't signed a final deal on specific sales to Iran, the agreement shows that major American companies are starting to benefit from a softening of relations between Iran and the West.

Under a six-month deal implemented in January this year, Iran has agreed to scale down its nuclear program in exchange for sanctions relief from six world powers, That deal was extended by four months last weekend after the parties failed to reach a final settlement.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/boeing-clinches-deal-to-sell-parts-to-iran-1406196351

[renegade000]

17. In their defense...

You need some serious hardware to hit a commercial airliner at cruising altitude. Non-state actors in that area, as far as we know, do not possess such equipment. Besides, it looks like they're flying over regions of Syrian still under government control, and the Syrian government is sure as hell not going to shoot down a civilian airliner (and why would they need to shoot down anything at this point -- the rebels don't have an air force).