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Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:49 PM

 

Netherlands opens war crimes investigation into airliner downing

Source: Reuters (Yahoo!)

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - Dutch prosecutors have opened an investigation into the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH-17 on suspicion of murder, war crimes and intentionally downing an airliner, a spokesman said on Monday. Based on the Law on International Crimes, the Netherlands can prosecute any individual who committed a war crime against a Dutch citizen. The 298 people who were killed when the plane was downed over Ukraine included 193 Dutch citizens.

The spokesman said that a Dutch public prosecutor was in Ukraine as part of the investigation.

The Dutch prime minister meanwhile threatened tough action against Russia if it did not do more to help.


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/netherlands-opens-investigation-airliner-shoot-down-131650202.html



Sooner or later, Russia will have to either reject or comply with demands to extradite those responsible.

52 replies, 5505 views

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Reply Netherlands opens war crimes investigation into airliner downing (Original post)
geek tragedy Jul 2014 OP
SummerSnow Jul 2014 #1
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #2
daleo Jul 2014 #5
itsrobert Jul 2014 #3
Loudly Jul 2014 #4
William769 Jul 2014 #6
bluestateguy Jul 2014 #7
Archae Jul 2014 #8
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #10
bluestateguy Jul 2014 #13
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #15
freshwest Jul 2014 #17
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #19
freshwest Jul 2014 #28
Cha Jul 2014 #9
joshcryer Jul 2014 #11
happyslug Jul 2014 #22
joshcryer Jul 2014 #24
Iliyah Jul 2014 #12
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #14
mackerel Jul 2014 #16
Initech Jul 2014 #18
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #20
IronGate Jul 2014 #35
yurbud Jul 2014 #21
happyslug Jul 2014 #23
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #26
happyslug Jul 2014 #27
Kaleva Jul 2014 #29
happyslug Jul 2014 #36
Kaleva Jul 2014 #37
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #39
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #33
hack89 Jul 2014 #38
IDemo Jul 2014 #42
Ash_F Jul 2014 #50
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #51
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #25
yurbud Jul 2014 #40
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #43
Ash_F Jul 2014 #45
yurbud Jul 2014 #46
Ash_F Jul 2014 #48
yurbud Jul 2014 #47
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #49
polynomial Jul 2014 #30
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #34
Sherman A1 Jul 2014 #31
dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #32
The2ndWheel Jul 2014 #41
geek tragedy Jul 2014 #44
The2ndWheel Jul 2014 #52

Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:54 PM

1. Can we extradite Bush and Cheney. Oh and Rice, Powell, Rumsfeld .All of them

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Response to SummerSnow (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:57 PM

2. We can't bring all of them to justice, but those we can we should nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:09 PM

5. One law for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell...

And another law for everyone else.

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Response to SummerSnow (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:01 PM

3. "he Netherlands can prosecute any individual who committed a war crime against a Dutch citizen. "

Might be a challenge.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:01 PM

4. Unfortunately for the separatists, The Hague is the capital of the Netherlands.

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:10 PM

6. Kick & recommended.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:12 PM

7. And that will accomplish...?

????

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:16 PM

8. The same that was accomplished against those who shot down the Korean airliner...

And those who lied about it.

Not a damn thing.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:28 PM

10. same thing every other war crime prosecution would accomplish nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:49 PM

13. Yeah, Henry Kissinger is rotting away in prison and--

Oh, wait.

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Response to bluestateguy (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:56 PM

15. because he was never prosecuted. his getting away with it doesn't

 

absolve others of their crimes

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #10)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:23 AM

17. War crimes tribunals don't work unless there are boots on the ground. Germany didn't have any choice

but to surrender to the judgements made in Nuremberg. That is the most storied example, people look to it as a step below the great throne of judgment in Revelations, when justice for all bad actions will be dealt with decisively and the evil sent to Hell. If one believes in that sort o thing. Even those who say they don't, have a visceral need to see people punished.

Germay only allowed it because they were an occupied country, under the boot of foreign armies. Their law was overturned, their government destroyed, they had no civil rights of any kind, not where they lived, the work they did, anything that was not granted by those who invaded.

That's why while I'd enjoy seeing BushCo. in the dock, it won't happen. That's why it hasn't been done by anyone and to keep on flailing that dead horse makes some feel noble and all, but they have not thought it through in terms of force. To take a nation's leader and hang them is done by force.

Chile and others that had war criminals never really saw the justice by their own systems. And if we want to go with the standards of Geneva, we can't ignore that those were enforced by military force, not a group of poets.

My question in such matters to those who complain about it as it is the Holy Grail to cleanse the USA of its guilt for Iraq, etc. is this:

Which country do you want to occupy the USA, and are you ready for the end of civil society, the one you want to save? Are you willing to submit to invaders who may or may not be benign? To have women raped by occupiers, property stolen, forced to live where they tell you?

And nothing will wash the blood off us or any others, because our leaders did what their position demanded, and the world has always has killers that had to be dealt with by someone. Leaders deal in life and death, and always have. The rest of us blame them for what they do, but in some cases, we are alive because of it. But that doesn't mean I don't care or am not sick of it, but I want to be honest about things.

We have been well and truly fucked by BushCo and they have found a niche in history that they have trapped us into, not themselves. They knew exactly what it would take to put them in the dock and knew that the entire nation would have to fall to get them. Like a worm program, they infected every single institution in the USA, and the only way to get them out is to wipe the hard drive clean.

To do that, would be to wipe out 90% of what most of us still love about the USA. The Constitution, Bill of Rights, social safety net programs, regulation over the oligarchs what is left of it, and the like.

IIRC, the last time a war crimes trial took place that jailed a leader, was after the war in Serbia. Note, they were a war zone with foreigners on the ground, even if their government allowed Miloöević to be transported to be tried and finally died in The Hague.

So, while the moral outrage may be high in the Netherlands, and the Hague is still, unless things have changed greatly in terms of offensive military ability, and by that I mean the rousting of those who downed that plane, nothing will happen.

JHMO. YMMV.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #17)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:34 AM

19. There will be public accountability

 

for ALL those responsible for this. There needs to be an investigation, and the Dutch certainly have the moral authority to carry it out.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #19)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 02:40 AM

28. I am still not disagreeing with you that would be a desirable outcome.

Look at the guy rousted from Kiev, who fled to Russia. No accountability. We have reports that the rebel leader in charge of the group who downed the plane is in Russia. They've melted into the shadows and will not be held accountable.

Moral authority requires physical actions, not spiritual ones. The Netherlands can do their investigation, just as were done after Serbian crimes.

Public accountability in terms of sanctions can be put into place, but these acts of war in a war zone, despite the innocents lost, will not end because of public opinion.

The war will not end until one side is forced to, and the guys that downed the plane are very hardened to their cause. The tweet that was posted said when told about the bodies of men, women and children and asked about why the plane was targeted the other said:

'Who knows. It's war.'

IOW, they felt justified and they will not surrender. The world is unraveling and it's going to be very messy.

Sorry if it sounds negative and I'm not dissing the OP or your opinion. I just can't see it happening.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:25 PM

9. Mahalo, Netherlands! thank you, geek.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:47 PM

11. Once they have the bodies and the boxes shit will hit the fan.

They no doubt have access to NATO intel, too. Hell hath no fury like a nation scorned.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #11)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:03 AM

22. Everyone is admitting the plane was shot down, the bodies and black boxes will prove NOTHING.

 

Even Putin and the Rebels are admitting the Plane was shot down. Thus the bodies and black boxes will show NOTHING we already don't know.

The key evidence is who ordered the plane shot down and why. That will NOT be in the black boxes, but in the records of the crew that fired the missiles. Which is one of the reasons I do NOT think the Missile crew is outside the Ukraine right now. Furthermore, mistake in warfare are NOT war crimes. Carelessness with data and jumping to conclusions not supported by evidence is a different case, but if the missile crew did as they were trained, and they data shows the jet was unknown, then it was a mistake, a tragedy but NOT a war crime. Thus the investigation will have to talk to the missile crew, if they can be located.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #22)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:08 AM

24. I didn't say they would.

The black boxes are important because they tell the telemetry of the plane (which would debunk quite a few CTs about the plane itself) and you want the bodies before you start pointing fingers. There's a reason the dutch envoy said they did a bang up job putting the bodies in the train. There's an reason another said they are providing great access, etc.

They want the bodies back.

Once that's over the finger pointing can begin and they don't have to walk on glass as it were.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:48 PM

12. The Dutch will investigate and find out what happened

and those responsible will face justice, I have no doubt on that. Not allowing the world community to come and take care of the death with respect and gather the crash items, plus the stealing of the death's personal items, oh hell no, the Dutch will find the effing truth.

I heard on KNX through a Russian reporter that Russia controls 90% if not more of the social media and media, newspapers, radio, et al. That majority of the Russians thinks that the West made up this and is blaming Russia. Some believe that the plane that crashed was carrying the bodies of the OTHER Malaysia's down plane back home. Seriously.

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Response to Iliyah (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:49 PM

14. it's likely that more people there know than let on

 

candor is sometimes scarce in fascist states

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:03 AM

16. Good. I checked the list and a lot of the passangers were from the

Netherlands. Australians should join in. 28 Australians.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)


Response to Initech (Reply #18)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:37 AM

20. This isn't the Middle East--all weapons in Eastern Europe will be of Soviet/Russian origin. nt

 

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Response to Initech (Reply #18)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 09:34 AM

35. WTF are you talking about?

 

This is Eastern Europe, not the Middle East, every weapon involved is of Russian design and supplied by the Russians.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:01 AM

21. so the Dutch already know who is responsible? Why are they issuing threats?

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Response to yurbud (Reply #21)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:06 AM

23. Because they are politicans and want to look like they can do something.

 

That is the way of most politicians, they want to appear like they are in charge, even when they are not. Any investigation has to start with the missile crew and their logs. Without both, this investigation will go nowhere.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #23)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:29 AM

26. No, the investigation ends with the missile crew

 

Since the missile crew are, ipso facto, guilty. The majority of the work will be establishing from where and by which group and ordered by whom. Once we know the name of the crew, the investigation is almost complete.

And, to be sure, the tampering by the rebels with the crime scene will support an adverse inference as to their culpability.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #26)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 02:04 AM

27. Missile crew is guilty of what???

 

If they Radar show a plane approaching on a path taken by Military planes, then it would appear to them to be a military target. They would be under orders to shoot down all military planes, so they fired their missiles. That is a Tragedy but NOT a war crime.

Civilians get killed in combat all the time, the only time it becomes a war crime is where they was a deliberate policy of harming civilians. If all the data the missile crew showed that it was a military plane OR even a plane of unknown type, it became a legitimate military target.

Now, the GOVERNMENT that controlled the missile crew may be liable for damages but the missile crew that fired the missile are NOT war criminals unless you can show it was DELIBERATE policy to kill civilians. That does NOT seem to be the case. It was an accident.

To get a criminal conviction you have to show that the missile launch was done when the crew NEW it was a passenger plane OR did not care. If the Missile crew took any precautions, such as checking flight planes that had been filed for planes in the area, then they did all that can be expected of people in their situation. i.e no lack of do care.

Side note: One of the reasons the plane was over the Ukraine was, in appears, that the pilot decided to take a short cut off his scheduled route, to save a couple of hours of flight time. The voice recorder and other black boxes MAY show that to be the case. If that is the case, then the reason the plane was shot down MAY be do to the plane crew flying over a war zone. Such a change in flight plans may explain why the missile crew, if they had access to flight plans, did not know it was a passenger flight, for it was to be further NORTH. in simple terms, it may come out the plane should NOT have been where it was and that was the reason the missile crew took it to be a military plane. If that is the case, then no war crime took place.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 03:11 AM

29. My guess is that it was Russian regulars operating the missile system

If so, then there is the problem of Russian troops clandestinely operating within the boundaries of another sovereign nation without permission of that nation (Ukraine) and shooting down airplanes.

But even if the missile crew was made up of Ukrainian separatists and they thought they were shooting at a military target, then the charge of involuntary mass murder of civilians is possible.

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Response to Kaleva (Reply #29)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 09:52 AM

36. Possible, but some finding of intention or dismissal is needed.

 

What I mean by intention is that the crew KNEW the plane was a Civilian Plane and shot it down anyway. By DISMISSAL, is that the crew did not CARE if it was a Civilian or not, they just fired the missile. Furthermore any question of doubt MUST be made in favor of the missile crew.

I just do NOT see anyone involved in this accident doing anything with the INTENTION to shoot anything down EXCEPT a military plane, thus it is NOT a war crime.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #36)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:12 AM

37. You asked "guilty of what?". I suggested involuntary mass murder of civilians.

The Dutch have the option of bringing this up before the ICC.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #36)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:02 AM

39. well, in order to claim that it was reckless mass homicide instead of

 

malicious mass homicide, they would have to admit firing the missile . . .

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Response to happyslug (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 08:54 AM

33. Shooting at planes without IDing them is a war crime.

 

There is never an excuse for killing 300 people.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:53 AM

38. Except the plane was on a commercial air route squawking civilian IFF

the missile crew has a responsibility under the rules of war to properly identify their target. They did not.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:49 AM

42. They were shooting blindly


Without radar, missile may not have identified jet

But to function correctly, an SA-11 launcher, also known as a Buk, is supposed to be connected to a central radar command -- as opposed to acting alone -- to be certain of exactly what kind of aircraft it is shooting at.

From the information that has come to light so far, the rebels don't appear to have such systems, said Pavel Felgenhauer, a respected defense columnist for Novaya Gazeta, a Moscow-based newspaper known for its critical coverage of Russian affairs.

"They could easily make a tragic mistake and shoot down a passenger plane when indeed they wanted to shoot down a Ukrainian transport plane," he said.

On Friday, Russia's state-owned RIA Novosti news agency also quoted Konstantin Sivkov, director of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems, as saying Buk missiles "should be provided with external systems of target identification, that is, radio-location systems. It's an entire system. And the insurgents certainly don't have radio-location."


http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2024115312_apxukraineplanemissile.html

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Response to happyslug (Reply #27)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:27 PM

50. I understand your argument, but I think they could have reasonably identified the target

It could be that they were improperly trained. If so, I think that is a strong argument of criminal negligence for whoever gave them the weapons.

If they ignored their training, then again that points to criminal negligence on the shooters' part.


It is unfortunate that the US military has done the same. It makes it harder to demand justice as a US citizen.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #50)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:49 PM

51. Which is why the Dutch are absolutely the ones who should be leading the inquiry.

 

Them, the Australians, and the Malaysians.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #21)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:08 AM

25. Why does it bother you that they are seeking

 

justice?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #25)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:38 AM

40. the tone is odd for an accident, particularly one that didn't occur in Russia

if somebody shot down an airliner over Afghanistan, would this be the approach a country where some of the victims are from should take with the US?

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Response to yurbud (Reply #40)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:52 AM

43. If the US had been arming the

 

people who shot the plane down , yes .

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #43)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:41 PM

45. What if the US military shot down a civilian airliner?

You know they already did that, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:03 PM

46. history starts exactly when some people say it does and no sooner.

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Response to yurbud (Reply #46)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:05 PM

48. I just want to add, that I do think both cases were an accidents.

But I also think both cases were war crimes.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:04 PM

47. If we shoot down an airliner, it's time for "Look forward, not back."

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #45)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 01:06 PM

49. Yes, I am very aware of that atrocity, and how shameful

 

it was that Reagan stubbornly refused to apologize for that. He left it to Poppy Bush to pay out the reparations.

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 04:14 AM

30. Natural order is not always clear


Nature has a mysterious way in expressing itself, especially when itís the human element. War reflects difficult boundaries in the property line where the calculus can be argued. For those who know advanced mathematics the Russians are master theoretic players impressive beyond many.

This tragedy has special overtoneís that can be noticed immediately. Just as American intelligence on 911 is in dispute and corrupted within our agencies. Here the question stands out why Bush did not have the courage to shoot down terrorist commandeered planes. Or why the International Community did not condemn the Arabís or Bush for crimes.

One thing is for sure the Dutch have deep, very deep economic interests in the United States. As the famous saying goes

"Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes her laws" Meyer Rothschild.

We the people do not understand this very well.

The American banking system developed by the English three centuries ago, by a Dutchman, in 1913 renamed the Federal Reserve.

There must be some compensation to this. The argument the Dutch knew very well the air space was a war zone. From what news already examined the plane was within a thousand feet of a war fly zone.

Or was that similarly invoked through greed and treachery to build fortunes like the profiteering in 911. This could be looked upon as playing chicken and the Dutch unfortunately lost lives. Heck Bush/ Cheney and the Arabís got away with 911, this opens a new fresh debate. If this is a real accident we will have a real discovery.

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Response to polynomial (Reply #30)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 08:59 AM

34. ? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 05:30 AM

31. Yes!

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 08:03 AM

32. Russia could hand its account of MH17 crash over to international commission

Russia could hand the data available to it about the crash of the Malaysian Airlines Boeing over to the international commission, said speaker of the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council Andriy Lysenko.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/russia-could-hand-its-account-of-mh17-crash-over-to-intl-commission-ukraine-357322.html

And Kiev could hand in the flight / air traffic files which they confiscated.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1133&pid=5735

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Response to geek tragedy (Original post)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 11:48 AM

41. I'd be interested to know what tough action the Dutch PM

had in mind for Russia.

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Response to The2ndWheel (Reply #41)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 12:16 PM

44. As a member of NATO and the EU, they certainly will have the right ears

 

paying attention to them.

And, Putin will not win a PR battle with the nation whose people his goons killed.

Even Ronald effing Reagan, jingo and asshole extraordinaire, along with Poppy Bush, had to adopt a degree of accountability after the Vincennes massacred a planeload of Iranians.


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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #44)

Tue Jul 22, 2014, 02:25 PM

52. It's all about leverage

People like Putin usually do the things they do because they can. Reagan, Bush, they maybe had to save some face, being the head of the US and all that entails. Even if it's just for the sake of perception. Putin probably doesn't have to care one way or another.

As always, time will eventually tell.

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