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Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:51 AM

Israel vows to destroy Hamas tunnels

Source: AP-Excite

By PETER ENAV and IBRAHIM BARZAK

JERUSALEM (AP) — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Thursday that Israel will destroy the Hamas tunnel network in the Gaza Strip "with or without a cease-fire," as the military called up another 16,000 reservists to pursue its campaign in the densely-populated territory.

Netanyahu's vow came as international efforts to end the 23-day-old conflict seemed to sputter despite concern over the mounting death toll, with more than 1,300 Palestinians, mostly civilians, and more than 50 Israelis, almost all of them soldiers, killed since July 8.

"We have neutralized dozens of terror tunnels and we are committed to complete this mission, with or without a cease-fire," Netanyahu said. "Therefore I will not agree to any offer that does not allow the military to complete this important mission for the security of the people of Israel."

An initial Israeli aerial campaign against Hamas was widened into a ground offensive on July 17. Since then the campaign has concentrated on destroying more than 30 cross-border tunnels that militants have constructed to carry out attacks on Israeli territory.

FULL story at link.



A displaced Palestinian waits with the mattresses she got for members of her family at the Abu Hussein U.N. school, in Jebaliya refugee camp, northern Gaza Strip, hit by an Israeli strike earlier, on Wednesday, July 30, 2014. Some 3,300 Gazans seeking shelter from the fighting had been crowded into the U.N. school in Jebaliya refugee camp when it was hit by a series of Israeli artillery shells Wednesday. (AP Photo/Lefteris Pitarakis)



Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140731/ml-israel-palestinians-2dbdcd892a.html

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Reply Israel vows to destroy Hamas tunnels (Original post)
Omaha Steve Jul 2014 OP
bemildred Jul 2014 #1
ann--- Jul 2014 #2
Orrex Jul 2014 #3
former9thward Jul 2014 #7
Orrex Jul 2014 #8
former9thward Jul 2014 #46
Orrex Jul 2014 #51
former9thward Jul 2014 #53
Orrex Jul 2014 #55
former9thward Jul 2014 #59
840high Jul 2014 #77
jberryhill Jul 2014 #80
stranger81 Aug 2014 #85
jberryhill Jul 2014 #79
former9thward Aug 2014 #81
jberryhill Aug 2014 #82
former9thward Aug 2014 #86
jberryhill Aug 2014 #87
former9thward Aug 2014 #88
jberryhill Aug 2014 #89
former9thward Aug 2014 #91
jberryhill Aug 2014 #92
former9thward Aug 2014 #95
jberryhill Aug 2014 #96
former9thward Aug 2014 #97
jberryhill Aug 2014 #98
former9thward Aug 2014 #99
jberryhill Aug 2014 #100
regnaD kciN Jul 2014 #4
get the red out Jul 2014 #5
hack89 Jul 2014 #6
jwirr Jul 2014 #9
hack89 Jul 2014 #13
frylock Jul 2014 #14
Orrex Jul 2014 #16
frylock Jul 2014 #18
Scootaloo Jul 2014 #52
Orrex Jul 2014 #57
hack89 Jul 2014 #19
frylock Jul 2014 #21
hack89 Jul 2014 #23
frylock Jul 2014 #34
hack89 Jul 2014 #40
frylock Jul 2014 #44
hack89 Jul 2014 #45
frylock Jul 2014 #47
hack89 Jul 2014 #48
frylock Jul 2014 #49
Orrex Jul 2014 #35
hack89 Jul 2014 #39
Orrex Jul 2014 #41
hack89 Jul 2014 #43
Orrex Jul 2014 #50
hack89 Jul 2014 #54
Orrex Jul 2014 #56
hack89 Jul 2014 #58
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #10
Sunlei Jul 2014 #12
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #15
Sunlei Jul 2014 #17
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #20
Sunlei Jul 2014 #22
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #24
IronGate Jul 2014 #28
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #32
IronGate Jul 2014 #33
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #42
IronGate Jul 2014 #27
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #29
IronGate Jul 2014 #31
cpwm17 Jul 2014 #36
IronGate Jul 2014 #37
Sunlei Jul 2014 #11
candelista Jul 2014 #25
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #26
Orrex Jul 2014 #38
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #60
Orrex Jul 2014 #63
IronGate Jul 2014 #65
Orrex Jul 2014 #66
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #69
Orrex Jul 2014 #72
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #73
Orrex Jul 2014 #74
kwassa Jul 2014 #75
Orrex Jul 2014 #78
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #76
JudyM Jul 2014 #70
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #71
IronGate Jul 2014 #30
COLGATE4 Jul 2014 #61
Scootaloo Jul 2014 #62
IronGate Jul 2014 #64
Scootaloo Jul 2014 #67
IronGate Jul 2014 #68
stranger81 Aug 2014 #83
stranger81 Aug 2014 #84
IronGate Aug 2014 #90
stranger81 Aug 2014 #93
candelista Aug 2014 #94

Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:52 AM

1. Well good, at least they have a military objective now. nt

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Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:53 AM

2. Along with

 

1000's of innocents. Palestinians have a right to defend themselves against Israel aggression.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:56 AM

3. Is "Hamas tunnels" a code-word for "Palestinian children?"

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Response to Orrex (Reply #3)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:25 AM

7. No, it means the multi-million dollar tunnels Hamas has built

for the sole purpose of attacking Israeli civilians. The tunnels built by money and materials meant for Gaza infrastructure and stolen from the Gaza people for terrorist uses.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #7)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:32 AM

8. How many Israeli civilians have been killed via those tunnels?

Give me a hard number, please.

How does it stack up against the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Palestian civilians slain in the past few weeks?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #8)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:30 PM

46. If Hamas had not fired rockets not one Palestinian in Gaza would have been killed.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #46)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:54 PM

51. Even if that were true, how many Palestinian civilians does Israel get to murder?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #51)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:58 PM

53. If you think war is "murder" there is no point in discussing things.

How many German and Japanese citizens did Roosevelt and Truman "get to murder"?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #53)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:18 PM

55. Deaths six decades in the past do not justify current-day murder

And if you think that Israel's decades-long oppression of Palestinians can be written off as "war," then there is no point in discussing things.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #55)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:28 PM

59. Good, we agree on something.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #46)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:11 PM

77. ...

 

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Response to Orrex (Reply #8)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 02:46 AM

85. I think the answer you're looking for is ZERO.

None.

Nada.

Zilch.

Quite the existential threat, no?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #7)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:41 PM

79. maybe there's something I don't get about tunnels, but

 

If my neighbor down the street had dug a tunnel into my backyard, I don't think shelling his house would really do much about the tunnels.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/kfc-smugglers-now-delivering-fast-food-through-gaza-tunnels-report-says/

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #79)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 12:33 AM

81. Well if you think that analogy is equivalent then there is nothing to discuss.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #81)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 12:38 AM

82. Ha

 

The Soviets were able to deal with very sophisticated tunneling in Berlin without shelling the other side of the wall. And with 1950's technology. The North Koreans have a lot more resources that Gaza, and somehow can't figure out how to tunnel under the DMZ undetected.

The US regularly uses ground penetrating radar to find smuggling tunnels, and the perimeter around Gaza can easily be subject to a network of seismic monitors to detect tunnel activity.

You don't shut down a tunnel by shelling an apartment building, a power plant, etc,. Only in Gaza does aerial bombardment close a tunnel.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #82)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 08:14 AM

86. Now DU is full of tunnel experts ....

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Response to former9thward (Reply #86)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 08:33 AM

87. No, but South Korea and the US Border Patrol are

 

And you don't see them shelling buildings above ground to detect or close tunnels below ground.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #87)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 09:09 AM

88. Fine, I'll wait until they post here.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #88)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 09:17 AM

89. And you are an expert in what?

 


Closing tunnels by shelling buildings?

I see... your opinion of the efficacy of killing 1200 people over tunnels which have killed no one does not need "expert" support.

Why is the US not shelling Tijuana to shut down smuggling tunnels?

http://www.kcra.com/news/local-news/news-sacramento/4-sophisticated-drug-tunnels-found-on-border
More than 150 secret tunnels have been found along the border since 1990, the vast majority of them incomplete, according to U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.


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Response to jberryhill (Reply #89)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 09:39 AM

91. The last time I looked we are not at war with Mexico.

The Mexican government is not building the tunnels and is not using them to carry on terrorist attacks against the U.S. Maybe you know different. I am not an expert on anything relating to tunnels unlike many who post here.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #91)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 09:44 AM

92. This may come as a surprise to you

 


But the identity and intent of someone constructing a tunnel has nothing to do with the technological problem of detecting and decommissioning a tunnel. Do I have a doctorate in electrical engineering and familiarity with underground sensing? Yes, I do, having done consulting work for a company which, in fact, makes equipment for locating underground utilities.

As asked above, what has been the death toll in Israel from "using them to carry on terrorist attacks".

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #92)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 12:34 PM

95. They killed 13 soldiers right at the beginning from a tunnel attack.

I have not been following the other deaths. Nice you are an expert in blowing up tunnels in the middle of a war.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #95)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 12:48 PM

96. They did, did they?

 


You might need an operative definition of "they":

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605662
The Israel Defense Forces thwarted a mass infiltration attempt on Thursday, opening fire on 13 Palestinian militants who managed to enter Israel through a tunnel in the southern Gaza Strip early Thursday morning.

When the militants exited the tunnel onto Israeli territory, Israel Air Force crafts were clearly visible above them, and they rushed to turn back to Gaza. The IAF bombed the opening of the tunnel, on Israeli territory on the eastern side of the fence.


Mounting a significant invasion through a tunnel is an interesting proposition.

It would seem that once they come out of the tunnel, then the tunnel is fairly easy to locate and close.

You see, the business end of the tunnels are not in Gaza.

I am impressed with the logic of "it is necessary to destroy a power plant to close tunnels", but the operative principle seems to be "they have tunnels, therefore anything goes". Why not just use nuclear weapons on them?

In your mind, is there anything that would constitute "going too far" in response to these 13 Palestinian militants you are mourning?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #96)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 12:59 PM

97. No, I don't mourn Hamas, tunnel demolition expert.

13 soldiers killed in Gaza; PM says Hamas tunnels could have caused ‘catastrophe’

http://www.timesofisrael.com/as-israel-hunts-for-terror-tunnels-after-soldiers-killed-abbas-to-meet-hamas-chief-for-ceasefire-talks/

Five Israeli Soldiers Killed After Hamas Militants Sneak Through Tunnel

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/07/29/five-israeli-soldiers-killed-after-hamas-militants-sneak-through-tunnel/

But I did get the stories mixed up. Sorry, demolition expert.


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Response to former9thward (Reply #97)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 01:05 PM

98. "could have"

 


Oh, you didn't have your facts straight. Quelle surprise.

Bombing apartment buildings and a power plant does not close tunnels, and that requires no "expertise" in anything to know.

Again, I ask, what would be "going too far" in response?

It would seem in each instance, the tunnel was found and closed without bombing a UN school anywhere.

But you aren't going to answer the question about proportionality, because you would be perfectly happy if every man, woman and child in Gaza were dead anyway.

You believe this is an appropriate response:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/11000115/Right-wing-Israelis-celebrate-the-deaths-of-Gazan-children.html

Right-wing Israelis celebrate the deaths of Gazan children
Video from a far-right Tel Aviv demonstration shows the crowd chanting, "there is no school tomorrow; there are no children left in Gaza"


That is disgusting behavior of which you approve.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #98)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 01:21 PM

99. Right on schedule you marched in your strawmen.

And I must have a picture of Hitler in my living room too, right, demolition expert?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #99)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 01:43 PM

100. What strawman?

 


I said nothing about Hitler. Germany never had a nuclear weapon. The US was the only one to use one, and I do not believe it was either appropriate or necessary.

See how easy that is?

There is no limit to what you would accept as retaliation against Gazans. None.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:07 AM

4. Interesting way of doing it...

Normally, you don't destroy tunnels by bombing schools, hospitals, and U.N. refugee centers for days on end.

If Israel had really wanted to destroy the tunnels, they could have easily accomplished that in half the time without anywhere near as many deaths of noncombatants.

But that isn't what Israel is about. With the West Bank "pacified" by splitting it into every smaller enclaves, walled off from each other and from the prime land reserved for Israeli settlers, Gaza was the last contiguous block of land held as any form of "Palestinian territory." Smash that, and Palestine will never be, can never be more than a set of disconnected reservations or bantustans, while Israel can claim all the land for itself. That's the real agenda here, and why the Likudniks seized on the murder of three Israelis by a rogue group on the West Bank to crush the people of Gaza under its bootheel.

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #4)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:16 AM

5. That's what I was thinking

They could have done it already.

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Response to regnaD kciN (Reply #4)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:17 AM

6. Only when the tunnel entrances are hidden in those places

do you think for a second that as Hamas built their underground network of tunnels they made any effort what so ever to avoid such places?

Why do you think it is easy to destroy concrete tunnels build 60 feet below a city? Just wondering how you would destroy them?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #6)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:43 AM

9. The exits are supposedly in Israel. They could handle it from that end with very little death toll.

A DUer yesterday put a cartoon on that showed a concrete truck filling the end of the tunnel. When a rat comes into the house we search out the hole and put metal over it. But I think there is more here than destroying the tunnels and that is why they are using a very deadly method of getting rid of them.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #9)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:13 AM

13. They are not built with exits in Israel

the last part of the tunnel to the surface is not dug until right before they are to be used. A days worth of digging and they are at the surface - in the meantime the tunnel can remain undetected for years if need be. Hamas is not stupid.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #13)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:25 AM

14. how many times have they been used and what's the civilian death toll?

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Response to frylock (Reply #14)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:30 AM

16. Funny how that question never gets answered

In the past few weeks I've seen claimed many times that Hamas is using these tunnels to "infiltrate Israel" and kill Israeli civilians, but no one ever seems to come up with clear numbers for how often this happens.

But apparently it happens often enough to justify a weeks-long slaughter by land, see and air. Because Hamas is to blame or something.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #16)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:42 AM

18. i posted yesterday that "terror tunnels" are the new "rape rooms"

and i'll bet everything I own that the same people decrying the "terror tunnels" were also suckered by the "rape room" and the fake incubator baby stories in Iraq.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #16)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:56 PM

52. Five israeli sodiers, at least.

 

I only know that number because a group of Hamas operatives filmed themselves popping up like gophers and attacking an Israeli military station, then scurrying back to their hole.

So far, no civilians that I'm aware of.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #52)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:23 PM

57. A military invasion and assault sometimes results in deaths among the invaders

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Response to frylock (Reply #14)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:42 AM

19. I do not have access to Hamas war plans

But let me answer with a question of my own. Why are you discounting the idea that the tunnels are not part of a long range plan to launch a massive surprise attack that would kill many Israelies and significantly change the geopolitical situation? The tunnels can only be used once. Why waste such a strategic weapon on a series of minor attacks that accomplish nothing of significance? Hamas needs and wants a major military victory. Killing handfuls of civilians is not what they want. Imagine if Hamas was able to attack and hold an Israeli town for a day or so - that is what they want.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #19)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:45 AM

21. so the answer is ZERO..

what is the CURRENT Israeli civilian death toll? surely you have access to those numbers.

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Response to frylock (Reply #21)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:47 AM

23. So you know Hamas' long range plans?

Care to share them with us? Care to address my post?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #23)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:22 AM

34. i don't. do you?

you know, aside from the bullshit Holocaust reference you posted the other day.

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Response to frylock (Reply #34)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:51 AM

40. Killing as many Israelis has always been their intention

it is not like they are shy about their goals. So the logical conclusion is they invested massive manpower, money and time in these tunnels to gain a significant military advantage that would allow them to kill lots of Israelis. What other purpose could they possibly be for?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #40)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:17 PM

44. and we circle back to the civilian death toll..

and what is that again?

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Response to frylock (Reply #44)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:26 PM

45. Hamas started a war.

they should stop shooting, withdraw and let Israel destroy the tunnels. Not complicated.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #45)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:39 PM

47. no, they didn't..

Israel started up with this battle, as has been pointed out to you on several occasions:

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014

Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank , Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

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Response to frylock (Reply #47)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:40 PM

48. ok nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #48)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:41 PM

49. ok..

see you next time around.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #23)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:23 AM

35. Cuts both ways

You declare outright that you don't know Hamas' long-term plans, but you advocate a strategy of pre-emptive civilian slaughter based on what you imagine Hamas might someday consider attempting.

At the same time, you deride Frylock for arguing against the unchecked massacre of Palestinian civilians because Frylock doesn't know Hamas' long-term plans.


Why do you think you're justified in arguing for a current-day campaign of murder on the basis of your own paranoid speculation, while you require hard evidence from those who argue against such murder?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #35)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:49 AM

39. Military assessments always start with capabilities, not intentions

the fundamental question that must always be addressed is what is your enemy capable of doing.

Pearl Harbor is a perfect example - the US expected war but dismissed the notion of a carrier attack on Pearl Harbor. In retrospect it was perfectly clear that Japan had the capability to attack Pearl Harbor and inflict significant damage.

So the question is simple - what would a network of 30 plus tunnels into Israel allow Hamas to do? And if that capability represents a significant threat then you have that mitigate that capability in some manner. Destroying the tunnels is the easiest solution since you know Hamas will never voluntarily give them up.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #39)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:58 AM

41. Have you seen pictures of the tunnels?

How strong an invasion force do you think you can sneak into Israel when they're walking single-file with no head room?

Military assessments always start with capabilities, not intentions
Not really. Military assessments very often start with an agenda that provides a strong incentive to find evidence of intention. Hell, I'm fine with whatever assessment you want to formulate: assess your ass off, as far as I'm concerned. But as soon as you start bombing civilians, you need to do better than "Honest! They were going to attack us in some unknown way at some unknown time in the future."


No matter what you imagine Hamas might one day try to accomplish with its narrow and claustrophobic tunnels, the fact remains that Israel is murdering Palestinian civilians in broad daylight with no justification whatsoever. Everything that you say about Hamas' "intention" is guess work and does not justify Israel's ongoing campaign of slaugher.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #41)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:03 PM

43. A couple of hundred per tunnel times 30

don't you think a force of several thousand armed men could hold an Israeli town for a day or two? We are not talking about an invasion - we are talking about a massive terrorist attack to designed to kill thousands.

Hamas could stop the fighting in a heart beat. They won't so the battle continues. Talk to Hamas.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #43)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 12:52 PM

50. Bullshit

A couple of hundred per tunnel times 30
Don't you think a force of several thousand armed men could hold an Israeli town for a day or two?
To what possible end? Israel would take that as a green flag to go house-to-house and kill every last Palestinian, and US government and media would support them 100%. Hamas would gain absolutely nothing from such a stunt, and they would stand to lose everything.

And even if that preposterously unrealistic bomb-crazy wet dream were a potential reality, it still doesn't justify the campaign of preemptive slaughter of Palestinian civilians.

We are not talking about an invasion - we are talking about a massive terrorist attack to designed to kill thousands.
Rather like the massive invasion and ongoing terrorist attack that's already killed thousands of Palestinians. Except that Israel has already proven that it has the means and the will to carry out such an attack, whereas Hamas does not.

Hamas could stop the fighting in a heart beat. They won't so the battle continues. Talk to Hamas.
Thus the murderous aggressor nation is painted as the victim of the oppressed, scattered, and occupied minority. Do you actually believe that?

Israel is responsible for its own actions. Israel is responsible for the murder of Palestinian civilians. Israel can stop the fighting in a heartbeat. The only reason that they don't stop it is because they don't want to stop it.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #50)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:05 PM

54. To what possible end did Hamas conduct a suicide bombing campaign?

they are religious fundamentalist - do you expect rational behavior from them?

As for the rest, you seem emotionally overwrought and invested in this to the point of being rude and insulting. I think I will move on. Have a good day.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #54)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:21 PM

56. Why does my tone bother you more than Israel's deliberate murder of Palestinian civilians?

If you can stomach the murder of children but can't handle someone calling bullshit, then you really need to reconsider your priorities.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #56)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 01:23 PM

58. ok nt

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Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:57 AM

10. If Israel can claim self defense against a population that it is brutalizing and severely oppressing

 

then what are the Palestinians allowed to do to defend themselves?

Since the Israeli government and IDF are supported by the vast majority of Israeli voters, it appears that Israel has a target rich environment. There are lots of military institutions and government offices. Plus, since it seems that Israel has granted itself the right to obliterate entire neighborhoods, there are a lot of nice neighborhoods in Israel that could really be tempting to obliterate along with ambulances and future refugee centers, because the IDF are everywhere. When they are done, the Palestinians can then set up a brutal apartheid regime. That sounds about fair. All people are created equal, and all that stuff.

The Palestinians are a million times more justified in attacking Israel than the other way around, but strangely that is not how things work. The racist hypocrites wouldn't tolerate what they support against the Palestinians.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

Tunnels everywhere:

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #10)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:01 AM

12. The West Bank Palestinian people and their Gov. asked Hamas to accept ceasefire & were also refused.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #12)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:27 AM

15. Israel has refused cease-fire proposals from both Hamas and John Kerry

 

It is Israel that is the aggressor and it is Israel that is committing mass-murder against a population it has highly oppressed for decades.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #15)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:39 AM

17. Once ground troops went in the hamas"Gov" was toast. They had their chances to accept ceasefire.

Several chances to accept, that would have kept the terrorist group 'Hamas' and their tunnel system attacking for years to come.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #17)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:43 AM

20. It's obvious who the terrorists are in this conflict

 

Support for mass-murder is just fine with some people.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #20)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:46 AM

22. no other country supports hamas either. not even their neighbor egypt will allow woman/childen in.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #22)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:56 AM

24. Egypt has a brutal, secular dictatorship which is an enemy of the Palestinians

 

What does that have to do with anything? That doesn't change anything Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #24)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:13 AM

28. So why doesn't Iran, Lebanon, Jordan, Baharain, etc

 

accept the Palestinians?
Because they view them with deep suspicions.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #28)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:17 AM

32. There are huge numbers of Palestinians outside of Palestine

 

Many Palestinians don't want to self-cleans. Palestine is their home.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #32)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:21 AM

33. Then kick the terror org Hamas out of the govt

 

and work towards a real peace treaty with Israel.
The terror org Hamas is the problem here, they refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, they've vowed to destroy Israel, they've built sophisticated tunnels under the border into Israel, instead of using those materials to better the lives of the residents, so, what is Israel to do?
Sit there and take the constant rocket fire?

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Response to IronGate (Reply #33)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:59 AM

42. Regardless of what the Palestinians do

 

it doesn't change what Israel does to the Palestinians. The West Bank is currently relatively passive, even though they are highly oppressed under occupation with an apartheid government. That's not acceptable.

In the 1990's the Palestinians tried to make a permanent peace agreement, and they did recognize Israel. Israel rewarded them with a strengthening of the apartheid government and a massive expansion of "settlements." Israel refuses to recognize the Palestinians' right to exist, and they were mostly there first.

The IDF murders Palestinians with regularity, frequently children. Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes and way of life, and commits numerous other crimes against them. That makes Israel the aggressor. The siege against the Gaza Strip makes Israel the aggressor.

Israel initiated this massacre based of the false claim that Hamas murdered the settler kids in the West Bank. The Gaza Strip isn't the West Bank and the murders were a crime, not an act of war. (Palestine isn't a country so it can't conduct war against its occupiers. Wars are conducted by countries. Plus the occupation makes Israel the aggressor, by definition, and Israel's massacres and massive destruction of property constitute collective punishment against a captive population.)

International Law is on the Palestinians' side. I could ramble much more, etc....

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #20)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:11 AM

27. Well, you're right about that, it would be the terrorist org Hamas.`

 

Early on Israel did accept a cease fire, the terror org Hamas refused to and kept firing rockets into Israel, Israel didn't respond for several hours hoping that the terror org Hamas would come to their senses and accept the cease fire, so, of course, Israel started shooting back again, rightly so.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #27)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:14 AM

29. I know your view

 

You're not rational when it comes to Israel.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #29)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:17 AM

31. I'm just as rational as you are, you just don't like my stance on Israel.

 

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Response to IronGate (Reply #31)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:31 AM

36. I think it is like religion

 

No matter how much evidence contradicts religious beliefs, many people can't be convinced they are wrong. Beliefs become hard wired. I was very much brought up on religion, but it didn't take, unlike my sisters.

Since, to me, it is extremely obvious that Israel is very much to blame for this conflict. But your brain wiring won't allow you to see that, for some reason. I don't understand it, based on my view.

Could I have some beliefs that are hard-wired that are irrational? Perhaps, but obviously I wouldn't recognize that fact.

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Response to cpwm17 (Reply #36)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:35 AM

37. It goes both ways.

 

I don't understand your blaming Israel for the conflict, based on my views, which are just as legitimate as yours.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 09:57 AM

11. Hamas tunnels and Hamas 'gov'. Then the west bank Pal. gov can govern. the Gaza strip.

probably a better long term outlook for the Pal people if Hamas infrastructure (tunnels and missile launchers they bought from North Korea, I found out) are totally gone, forever more.

Why better in the long term ?

Hamas could have accepted a ceasefire last month and then dragged out their hate campaigns and attacks for many, many more years.

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Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:04 AM

25. They sure made some cool tunnels.

 

Look at this one. I've never seen a drug smuggling tunnel from Mexico this good. Those concrete arches are really an enhancement.

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/ChtLFIt.VjhDe.DUyFAu8w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTYzOTtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz05NjA-/

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Response to candelista (Reply #25)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:10 AM

26. Much better use than for something foolish like

building housing or schools for Gaza inhabitants. You've got to hand it to those Hamas leaders - they know what their people really want.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #26)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:36 AM

38. Nice of Israel to bomb the shit out of all of those schools and houses then.

That'll give Hamas an incentive to rebuild. Or it would, if Israel let them have access to building supplies.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #38)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:04 PM

60. You mean like all the "building supplies" that went

into construction of this vast underground network of terrorist tunnels instead of housing for the Palestinians? Hopefully the Israelis won't be so naive the next time.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #60)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:10 PM

63. Maybe Israel should get out of Gaza and stop slaughtering Palestinian civilians

It might surprise you to learn that decades of oppressive and murderous occupation will tend to inspire dissatisfaction, which may in turn lead to actions not desired by the oppressive, murderous occupier.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #63)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:27 PM

65. Maybe the terror org Hamas should stop lobbing rockets into Israel?

 

Just saying.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #65)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:32 PM

66. If they posed an equal threat of lethality, then that would make sense

Israel is killing Palestinians with industrial efficiency and precision. It is simply obscene to equate Israel's overwhelming military superiority, used to kill Palestinian civilians, is in any way equivalent or morally superior to Palestinian rockets with feeble guidance blind-fired into Israel and, to date, having little or no impact.

Collective punishment is a terrorist act, and that is unquestionable what Israel is doing.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #63)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:46 PM

69. Maybe Hamas should stop attacking Israelis. nt

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #69)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 04:00 PM

72. You find a dozen dead Israelis unacceptable

But thousands of dead Palestinians are just fine with you? If, by your logic, Israel is justified in its campaign of murder because of its dead citizens, then surely Palestinians would be hundreds of times more justified in mounting a similar campaign.

Ah, the progressive mindset.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #72)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 04:58 PM

73. No the progressive mindset say that it's unacceptable

for a country to be held hostage to a group totally dedicated to its extermination. The people of Gaza are the unfortunate recipients of the results from their first electing and now tolerating a terrorist group as their 'legitimate' representatives. No one is cheering the loss of life, but Hamas in engaged in a war against all Israelis - men, women and children, whom they have shown no reluctance to slaughter year after year after year. These tunnels are the latest iteration of Hamas' unceasing efforts to kill Israeli citizens and it is lunacy to suggest that the Israeli government turn a blind eye to them. Until the Palestinians themselves get fed up enough to rid themselves of Hamas I don't see any possibility of the situation changing.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #73)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 05:39 PM

74. You forgive Israel everything. Why?

Do you truly believe that they are blameless, and that they should face no accountability for the thousands they've slain in alleged retaliation for a bunch of ineffectual rocket attacks?


Israel's cheerleaders go on and on about "the terrorist org Hamas" and its alleged desire to exterminate Israel. Even if that is exactly true as written, it still doesn't give Israel the right to kill thousands of Palestinians. It is utterly beyond me that anyone could excuse this appalling carnage, no matter what empty justifications they put forth.

Frankly, I find that disgusting. Even if every single violent act attributed to Hamas to date is literally true as claimed, it still falls far short of Israel's murderous campaign against Palestinian civilians.


The push to exonerate Israel for its many crimes is horrifying and inexcusable.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #74)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 07:59 PM

75. A pox on both their houses.

Neither side is blameless. The policies of both parties are stupid and destructive and murderous.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #75)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 10:16 PM

78. All else being equal, I'll let the numbers speak for themselves

Though neither side is blameless, one side has killed a great many more civilians than the other.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #74)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 08:49 PM

76. War is a very unpleasant business. It almost always,

regardless of the circumstances, involves civilians being injured or killed. There will be time later to sort out charges and counter-charges of 'war crimes'. For the time being however the best way to deal with that is by ending the hostilities. For Israel, that will only be possible when they believe they have ended the grave threat that Hamas presently poses.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #60)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 03:47 PM

70. ... and the U.N. n/t

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Response to JudyM (Reply #70)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 03:48 PM

71. Also n/t

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Response to candelista (Reply #25)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 11:15 AM

30. Modeled after the North Korean tunnels found under the DMZ.

 

Think how much good that material and labor would've done if used for infrastructure instead of future terror attacks inside Israel.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #30)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:07 PM

61. Yeah, but the Hamas leadership has zero interest in the

overall welfare of the poor souls that they 'represent'. Their only and oft-repeated goal is to ensure that Palestine is Jew-free from the Sea to the River. The rest is window-dressing for naive foreigners who believe they're actually dealing with 'statesmen'.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #30)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:09 PM

62. I can't help but note the conspicuous LACK of such terror attacks

 

One would think that Hamas, being completely irrational scatterbrained nutjobs whose entire reason for existing is eating Jewish babies or whatever, would have been using these things rather frequently once completed - they're obviously not the product of the last couple of days, after all. And since israel is just now finding hte extent of them, why hasn't hamas come pouring out of the undiscovered ones to wreak havoc on israeli civilians over the course of this war? Clearly the potential is there, so why aren't they using it?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #62)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:25 PM

64. You mean like this one that was stopped by the IDF

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-fighters-attempt-tunnel-into-israel-201471755523844167.html



And how do you know they weren't saving those for a massive terror attack?

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Response to IronGate (Reply #64)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:35 PM

67. I don't know, and neither do you

 

What I do know is that the Gilad Shalit affair taught Hamas that a soldier - alive or dead - does more for their gain than any number of Israeli civilians slain.

Do you think hamas believes all the rockets they fire is going to do something? They keep track of this stuff same as anyone else would, they know the bulk of what they fire is shot down. But each time a rocket is shot down, Israel is out $23,000. Hamas is down $5 - sugar, quicklime, and one of the chunks of pipe all of Israel's bombing has dug up.

I think those 13 were going to go for a valuable target of some sort. Just like the ones in the video I mentioned upthread who targeted a military post (which I will not post for the graphic content it contains - look up "secret filming Hamas" on youtube if you want your stomach to lurch a bit.)

We're not looking at the Hamas of 2002 here, I don't think.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #67)

Thu Jul 31, 2014, 02:45 PM

68. Believe it or not,

 

I actually agree with everything you say here.
Hamas is not the Hamas of 2002, they've become much more media savvy, more sophisticated, and I will say this, Israel is losing the propaganda battle.

I'll take a look at those videos, after 20+ years in the Fire Service, not much turns my stomach anymore.
Thanks for the reasoned response.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 02:44 AM

83. Yes, infrastructure that would simply be bombed to pieces

the next time Israel decides to "mow the lawn."

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Response to IronGate (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 02:45 AM

84. Yes, infrastructure that would be bombed to pieces

the next time Israel decided to "mow the lawn."

Sounds like a good investment to me.

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Response to stranger81 (Reply #84)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 09:22 AM

90. Wrong.

 

Infrastructure that would still be there if the terror org Hamas would quit sending rockets into Israel or mounting terror attacks through those terror tunnels.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #90)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 11:49 AM

93. Right, because Israel never bombed Gaza before these tunnels were built.

Oh wait -- my bad -- they bomb Gaza like clockwork about every 2 years, no matter what.

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Response to IronGate (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 1, 2014, 11:51 AM

94. Those N. Korean tunnels are way cooler!

 

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