Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

inanna

(3,547 posts)
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 06:21 PM Jan 2015

Some 30,000 Germans protest against anti-Islam rallies

Source: Associated Press

BERLIN (AP) — The square around the Cologne Cathedral was plunged into darkness Monday evening after the historical landmark in western Germany shut down its lights in a silent protest of weekly rallies in Dresden against the perceived "Islamization" of Europe.

The symbolic act came as thousands of Germans demonstrated in Cologne and several other cities against the ongoing protests by the group calling itself Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the West, or PEGIDA, which attracted its biggest crowd yet in Dresden on Monday night.

Cologne Cathedral provost Norbert Feldhoff, told n-tv that shutting down the lights was an attempt to make the PEGIDA demonstrators think twice about their protest.

"You're taking part in an action that, from its roots and also from speeches, one can see is Nazi-ist, racist and extremist," he said on n-tv. "And you're supporting people you really don't want to support."



Read more: http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/cae69a7523db45408eeb2b3a98c0c9c5/Article_2015-01-05-EU--Germany-Anti-Islam%20Rallies/id-3eb466b1cb714cb4ade69e12f3288575

40 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Some 30,000 Germans protest against anti-Islam rallies (Original Post) inanna Jan 2015 OP
I don't know how many of these protesters would abide by sharia law cosmicone Jan 2015 #1
Where is sharia law being "forced down anyone's throats" which is a Fox News theme, by the way? Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #2
It happens.... a LOT. Burf-_- Jan 2015 #4
But is it really a threat? DVDGuy Jan 2015 #10
The wise speak of what they know. RiverNoord Jan 2015 #3
Some of us speak from personal experiences cosmicone Jan 2015 #5
spot on K&R Burf-_- Jan 2015 #6
And what's yr personal experience? Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #12
I have never posted anything against Muslims as a whole cosmicone Jan 2015 #13
Sorry but you've posted some nasty stuff about Muslims, and some very recently... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #14
I am flattered that you've researched me obsessively cosmicone Jan 2015 #15
Bomb throwers in the Caucasus and the gangsters in Kosovo reorg Jan 2015 #16
I was responding to Violet_Crumble and her specific points cosmicone Jan 2015 #17
You cannot compare India with Germany reorg Jan 2015 #18
Islamization of India is always a threat cosmicone Jan 2015 #30
OK - I'm done. You are an utter idiot. RiverNoord Jan 2015 #24
East Pakistan was the first step towards balkanization of Pakistan cosmicone Jan 2015 #28
I'm glad to see many members here know your vile beliefs closeupready Jan 2015 #33
One person's vile is another person's virtuous cosmicone Jan 2015 #34
That would be the stance of many people who hold bigoted views against minority groups... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #37
You have lost all objectivity. cosmicone Jan 2015 #40
Don't thank me. Thank Google and the 57.5 seconds I had spare yesterday... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #36
You have mastered sophistry and strawman paradigms. cosmicone Jan 2015 #39
Although I do occasionally visit this forum RiverNoord Jan 2015 #22
Sounds much like political parties-- each side rationalizing its own superiority at the expense of.. LanternWaste Jan 2015 #21
also ..this Burf-_- Jan 2015 #7
Question for you. Do you support the anti-Muslim protests in Germany? n/t Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #9
Good on them. Comrade Grumpy Jan 2015 #8
Is there one single German politician advocating for sharia law in Germany? No? Not even one? Ash_F Jan 2015 #11
Would be interesting to see who exactly started that "sharia law fear". I think that line Sunlei Jan 2015 #23
In Germany I'm positive reorg Jan 2015 #26
Thank you, thats very interesting information. American 'media' must have picked it up from there, Sunlei Jan 2015 #27
K&R 1step Jan 2015 #19
Germany should have kicked out David Duke much earlier. They let him spread the hate for a year, Sunlei Jan 2015 #20
Great news: Counter-protests dwarf German anti-Islam rallies pampango Jan 2015 #25
good news. That's why the 'badguys' hate protests and protesters! :P Sunlei Jan 2015 #29
This will make many of DU's Islamophobic Bigot Brigade very unhappy. closeupready Jan 2015 #31
LOLOOLOLOLOLOLOL OH SPLENDID ! Burf-_- Jan 2015 #35
LOL - such as half the people posting this thread who are on my ignore list. closeupready Jan 2015 #32
We drew the lines..... DeSwiss Jan 2015 #38
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
1. I don't know how many of these protesters would abide by sharia law
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 06:38 PM
Jan 2015

At the same time, 1 in 8 Germans are showing willingness to join the anti-Islamization march.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/world/2015/01/01/Merkel-warns-against-condemns-anti-Islam-movements-in-Germany.html

Also, one needs to be able to differentiate between anti-Islam movements which are xenophobic/racist and anti-Islamization movements which are against sharia being rammed down people's throats.

The former are clearly heinous but the latter are not. Every ethnicity should be welcomed with open arms and their faiths/cultures respected as long as it is not being forced on other cultures.

The problem comes from some people believing that their way is superior, other people's ways are inferior and the other people should be forced to believe as they do.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
2. Where is sharia law being "forced down anyone's throats" which is a Fox News theme, by the way?
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 06:41 PM
Jan 2015

Are you afraid someone will do this throat forcing in America....name one Western nation or place where throats have been so severely violated, or where such violent non-consensual things are happening?
Meanwhile take a look at all the Maria law being forced upon folks.

 

Burf-_-

(205 posts)
4. It happens.... a LOT.
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 08:56 PM
Jan 2015

I'd think anyone a fool if they are actually suggesting that this doesn't ever happen, Especially in America. There are more radical ( yeah there's that word again) christian evangelicals than ever showing up outside of entertainment events hollering thier "JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY REPENT" crap. Brandishing signs, accusing everyone coming and going of every sin they can list on their silly signs. I recently went to Dave Chappelle's stage show and these kooks were out there pushing their holier than thou noise in everyone's faces, waving bibles tauntingly, the whole fire and brimstone indignation. They even had made street sign toppers that said "Retribution Way", I think I was probably the only one to notice it ( I think that could be illegal actually). I... like most in line with me, laughed at them heartily, but some people can actually be intimidated/shamed and leave because of it, and that is wrong.


I've also seen them at just about any rock band, or secular comedian, or anything they don't think is wholesome. Let's not even mention Westboro Baptist Church and all their hate crimes in the name of "god". I know some people like think these some of these same kinds of behavior aren't happening with evangelical radical Islamic groups in Europe, but they are, they so are, and there's plenty of video proof of it all over the internet, all but few clicks on google will most certainly reveal from multiple sources.

Another point that needs to be made clear is that a Religion IS NOT a Race, that is a False Equivocation fallacy. So I'm sorry but no one gets to use the race card on it anymore to dishonestly accuse someone of being racist for pointing it out. There is definitely a difference between a radical and common practitioner in any religion if anyone likes to think so or not. Cosmicone has it spot on above with this:

"The problem comes from some people believing that their way is superior, other people's ways are inferior and the other people should be forced to believe as they do".


As long as that sort of mentality is allowed to persist in humanity no progress will ever be made towards any kind of peace.



DVDGuy

(53 posts)
10. But is it really a threat?
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 10:45 PM
Jan 2015
I've also seen them at just about any rock band, or secular comedian, or anything they don't think is wholesome. Let's not even mention Westboro Baptist Church and all their hate crimes in the name of "god". I know some people like think these some of these same kinds of behavior aren't happening with evangelical radical Islamic groups in Europe, but they are, they so are, and there's plenty of video proof of it all over the internet, all but few clicks on google will most certainly reveal from multiple sources.


There is no doubt that there are those that seek to impose their brand of religious fervor on others, and that's not acceptable regardless of whether they are so called Christians (Westboro Baptist Church, like you mention) or Muslims.

But my question is that is it really such a serious threat that we need thousand people marches, or is the kind of "threat" that the ilk of Faux News likes to exaggerate to inflame the public, and for their own political gains?

You mention these "kooks", Westboro and these "holier than thou" individuals, and I think everyone here is aware of them, but none of us are worried that their brand of hate will ever be anything more than a fringe element. Certainly nothing to be afraid of, nothing that needs a 30,000 people march, and no actions that could inflame the already rather tedious culture wars. Do you really think that Sharia has any chance to succeed in Western democracies, even when, say, the building of Islamic community center gets opposed these days?

But let's not kid ourselves. While there are genuine concerns, and we should all oppose some elements that Sharia represents (such as the treatment of women, and its attack on our core democratic values), but many that promoted, attended and marched in the protest have motivations that are far less innocent that that of you and I. Their hope, as always, is to use these incidents to strike up resentment between extremists on both sides of the fence, hoping for acts of violence or retribution. There are always those that seek to use this and other non-threats as a wedge issue to stoke up fear, hate and resentment in society, initially aimed at those that most accept as "extreme", but over time, expand their circle of hate ever wider to eventually encompass an entire race or religion or anything that they classify as "different".

We can all share the same sense of opposition against Sharia (although to be honest, I have to say I don't know enough about it to pass judgement, at least on all aspects of Sharia, without reservation), but we can do so without getting into bed with some truly despicable and hateful groups. Don't become be pawns in their game of hate!
 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
3. The wise speak of what they know.
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 08:38 PM
Jan 2015

On the other hand, fools bullshit freely.

Read your post. Do you suppose you are wise or a fool? It's not difficult.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
5. Some of us speak from personal experiences
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 08:58 PM
Jan 2015

and don't give a damn whether biased ideologues think it is wise or not.

 

Burf-_-

(205 posts)
6. spot on K&R
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 09:10 PM
Jan 2015

lots of that bias on here as I'm beginning to see cosmic. I wont let it stand unchallenged either.

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
12. And what's yr personal experience?
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 11:08 PM
Jan 2015

I'm curious as to what sort of personal experience you have with Muslims to lead you to post some of the stuff that if posted about Jews or African Americans would lead to a swift banning from DU.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
13. I have never posted anything against Muslims as a whole
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 12:53 AM
Jan 2015

I have treated victims of terrorism while the perpetrators were given safe passage and hidden by a hostile Muslim country.

I have a tremendous hatred for terrorism, >95% of which is perpetrated in the name of Islam while a vast majority remains silent. My posts are directed at terrorists and wherever there is brutality/injustice spread in the name of religion. Then there is the extreme misogyny with honor killings, forced marriages, lack of freedom in attire etc.

I would rather see Muslims bring back their glorified past in science, literature and the arts (Kahlil Jibran, Rumi, Umar Khayyam etc.) rather than the worship of violent and rabidly religious characters whose atrocities are exalted for the masses.

Fortunately, more and more sane and rational Islamic leaders are speaking out against ISIS and other outfits and hopefully, the sympathy and support they generate in the minds of younger Muslims will undergo a sea change.




Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
14. Sorry but you've posted some nasty stuff about Muslims, and some very recently...
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:42 AM
Jan 2015

Here's a link to just one of many. Someone posted an article about thousands attending a German anti-Muslim rally. Yr response?


The muslims brought it upon themselves by harboring,

aiding and abetting the extremist crazies amongst them instead of reporting those people to the authorities.

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=971820


Can you imagine if someone responded to a rally against Jews or African Americans with what you said?

As for yr claim that over 95% of terrorism is carried out by Muslims in the name of Islam. Where did you get that figure from? I'm asking because it's ringing a bell with me and having some knowledge of global terrorism, the bullshit meters going off. It sounds like another variation of the RW 'Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslim."

on edit: Almost forgot. This comment from you: 'Then there is the extreme misogyny with honor killings, forced marriages, lack of freedom in attire etc.' How does this opposition to abuse of women work for you? You only oppose it when Muslims do it? Because I just read an older thread where yr trying to minimise the extreme misogyny and homophobia of India's BNJ party and where you show some steadfast support for that party and its leader.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=805113
 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
15. I am flattered that you've researched me obsessively
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 10:28 AM
Jan 2015

The first thread you posted was alerted on and here were the results:

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Pure bigotry, blaming immigrants for anti immigrant sentiment is disgusting.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Dec 22, 2014, 11:10 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Let people see what these Hillraisers really are like
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I decided to vote to hide upon reading the first two words in this post: "The muslims"
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Why would I vote to hide this? He's 100% right. Europe's most radical Muslims are not like the US' Muslims. The extremists over there terrorize European citizens daily.

Clearly, a majority thought it was not bigoted. One juror thought I was 100% right.

The 90% figure is a ballpark number. The Fuerzas Armadas Revolucionarias De Colombia (FARC) haven't done anything lately. Epanastatikos Agonas in Greece has not committed explosions/gunfire etc -- they're revolutionaries that hold demonstrations mainly, Euskadi Ta Askatasuna (ETA) (Basques) have been dormant for decades, Shining Path / Sendero Luminoso in Peru has a sporadic presence, IRA has been dormant since peace in NI - same thing re: Ulsters, NPA in the Philippines is infrequent and sporadic, Aum Shinrikyo had that one serin episode and since then has been a pussycat, Kahane Chai in Israel has been reduced to slogans and fund raising since one of theirs killed 29 people and LRA in Uganda led by Joseph Kony is currently active.

Now let's talk about Islamic terrorists (which are, by the way, actively supported by many Islamic countries and have a broad sympathy in the population in which they operate) which dominate headlines everywhere with untold brutality, rapes, forced conversions and murders (all of which were the hallmark of Islamic invasions of the 11th century by the way.) Just look at all the terrorist movements Kosovo Liberation Army, the Chechen terrorists, the Dagestan terrorists, Xin Jiang terrorists, Kashmiri terrorists supported by a terrorist state, Al Shabab, ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda, Bali Brigade, Jaish e Mohammad, Lashkar e Toiba, Mindanao terrorists, Myanmar terrorists, Thai terrorists -- all Muslim and fighting for their religion. Then of course there is Hamas.

Thus, I believe my 95% guesstimate is correct.

The second of my posts you cited is also out of context. I support Narendra Modi but I do not support neither misogyny nor homophobia anywhere. Modi has a strictly economic agenda and it will improve the GDP of India creating opportunities for hundreds of millions. Modi will also make Pakistan think twice about sending terrorists into India to commit mischief.

You sound like a very intelligent person but please don't mischaracterize what I have written. I personally think your passion for your cause has created a blind spot where you don't see terrorism as that bad a political tool especially once you have demonized your enemy.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
16. Bomb throwers in the Caucasus and the gangsters in Kosovo
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 12:11 PM
Jan 2015

do not an Islamization of Germany make.

This thread like the other one where you expounded your thoughts on Islam was about a strange phenomenon in Dresden, a German city close to the border to Poland. The Muslim population in this region is miniscule, what they know about "muslim terrorists" and whatnot is from TV and not from Germany.

Do they actually have legitimate grievances? I am not familiar with who is demonstrating there except from some interviews and reports I saw which may be distorting the picture, but what has been reported is that they feel
a) they don't get what they deserve (pensions, unemployment benefits, job opportunities etc.) and
b) they come first
c) consternation about foreigners not hiding cultural differences and/or having a very visible presence in some (small) parts of some (other) cities.

"Do we know if we can celebrate Christmas like we used to in the future?" Oh, the terror. They'll get used to hear other languages and see different faces. Until then, they will vote for the new conservative, anti-EU party "AfD" which won in Saxony 9.7 percent recently, with personnel coming from the CDU. The right-wing have dominated this region since the unification, it's the Bavaria of the East.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
17. I was responding to Violet_Crumble and her specific points
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 12:34 PM
Jan 2015

Your post is thus non-responsive to those.

However, the danger is real. The population may be small now but little by little the natives will be diluted and displaced for total dominance later.

In 1947, in Kashmir, 54% of the population was Hindu and 46% Muslim. Over 70 years, the Hindus have been tortured, brutalized, killed or driven out, making Kashmir's population 90% Muslim and 10% others today.

Read about the ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pandits here: http://www.ikashmir.net/history/fundamentalism.html

http://www.ikashmir.net/atrocities/index.html

This could happen anywhere especially since one culture believes it is superior and has a right to enforce its way of life on others.



reorg

(3,317 posts)
18. You cannot compare India with Germany
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 12:55 PM
Jan 2015

by any means. And India is not in danger to become an "Islamic state" either. But that's for another thread at another time.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
30. Islamization of India is always a threat
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:38 PM
Jan 2015

Pakistanis are always openly promoting India to be an Islamic country instead of a secular democracy that it is today.

http://defence.pk/threads/is-india-going-islamic.192982/

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
24. OK - I'm done. You are an utter idiot.
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:53 PM
Jan 2015

Since you're talking about India and Kashmir, have you ever heard of East Pakistan?

Considering how pathetically you cherry-pick for information supporting your absurd claims, I expect that this will be a mystery to you. Of course, you'll do a bit of search-engine research in order to provide a retort.

East Pakistan does not exist. It was, once upon a time, a part of Pakistan, with a massive Muslim majority population. However, its mostly Bengali ethnicity, speaking the Bengali language, was neglected, then severely repressed, by the heavily Punjabi Pakistani government.

In 1971, East Pakistan went to war with Pakistan proper, in complete alliance with Hindu-majority India. Thus was born the Muslim-majority modern nation of Bangladesh.

My response is entirely responsive to your points concerning the never-ending conflict in Kashmir. It's a disputed territory, the likes of which can be found around the world. The religious makeup of the (shifting with the ebb and flow of the conflict) population has almost nothing to do with the conflict, other than to enable both governments to whip up recruits to serve as fodder.

Finally, do you suppose anyone in the world feels severely threatened by the massive constant export of American culture around the world? Do you consider American culture to be superior to 'Islamic' culture? Does the United States ever seek to impose (you say 'enforce,' which is logically incorrect) its way of life on others? Has Germany ever done so? Indeed, has any Muslim-majority country ever killed by terrorism anywhere near the number that Germany has, in any such effort? (The Ottoman Empire/Turkey worked pretty hard at it during WWI, but the scale is nowhere near Germany's).

How legitimate, comparatively, would Muslim-majority countries' concerns be regarding 'Americanization' of their cultures, compared to some imagined 'Islamization' of some European countries?

Well, I know you will only think about these things in order to come up with more nonsense to support your absurd position, but perhaps, someday, you might just approach something vaguely approaching wisdom. That's why I responded to you. Maybe, someday. But I doubt it.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
28. East Pakistan was the first step towards balkanization of Pakistan
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:31 PM
Jan 2015

Baluchistan will be the next to be liberated. This is in line with India's long term strategic policy which was neglected by successive governments but now, with Modi in power, will be covertly resurrected.

There is no more Americanization of Muslim countries than of all the other countries. Japan, China, India, Turkey, Russia and even Europe have moved forward without a problem with it because it is a part of natural evolution of free cultures. All those countries have their own rich cultures but you'll see people, especially women, giving up traditional garb to be replaced by jeans and T-shirts.

Comparing Americanization, which is a movement forward, towards more freedom of expression to Islamization which is a movement backwards in time and towards more restrictions on personal freedom is IMHO, for lack of a better word, stupid.

Lastly, Kasmir is a problem created by Nehru - it could have been nipped in the bud by destroying Pakistani military in 1949 but Nehru chose to go to the UN instead. The result has been horrible with ethnic cleansing of Hindus there.

Read about it: http://www.ikashmir.net/atrocities/index.html

You'll see that Hindus were tortured, killed, raped and driven out a la ISIS and what Islamic invaders of the Indian subcontinent did a thousand years ago. Things haven't changed much for the warriors since then.

Kashmir problem will go away once Pakistan gets balkanized into several tiny countries along ethnic lines.



 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
34. One person's vile is another person's virtuous
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 05:32 PM
Jan 2015

It is not easy to educate people about reality especially those who have not seen it up close.

Thanks for your interest anyway bro You're cool in my book.

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
37. That would be the stance of many people who hold bigoted views against minority groups...
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 12:48 AM
Jan 2015

Someone says something racist or anti-Semitic, someone else rightly tells them the viewpoint is a vile one, and they'd probably trot out the 'one person's vile is another person's virtuous'. I've seen that attitude over at Discussionist, as well as the DU I/P forum now and again back when I spent a few years posting there regularly. I tend to give people who express viewpoints that are imo bigoted the benefit of the doubt, but when I see someone doing it repeatedly that's when the benefit of the doubt fades. Yr at that point for me.

See, being Australian, I have been a bit tone-deaf in the past when it comes to racism in the US. I'm not talking about the blatant stuff, but some stereotypes that are unique to the US and racism there and don't happen in our own racism towards our indigenous population. I got defensive back when a few DUers were yelling at me coz I didn't see a local KFC ad about the Test series with the West Indies involving an Australian supporter sitting amongst a bunch of West Indies supporters and handing out KFC to them as a peace offering as being racist. I got the shits because what I saw was American DUers deliberately ignoring that their own stereotypes aren't stereotypes in other countries, they didn't even know what cricket was, and the ad was meant for us, not them. But I realised I was also deliberately ignoring things like the fact that the ad looked at by Americans was to them racist and the company that made it was based in the US and should have known better and that there was the US racist stereotype of fried chicken and African Americans in there.

The point is that when people have a tone deaf moment, they shouldn't get defensive, nor start informing everyone that they're educating people about reality. What they should do is listen and have a think about what it is that's offending people. It seems pretty damn simple to me...

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
40. You have lost all objectivity.
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 01:20 AM
Jan 2015

To you, anyone who is not supportive of terrorism by Hamas, Al Q'aeda, Taliban et al is a bigot and an islamophobe because the enemies of these groups are somehow worse in your eyes and thus their actions justified.

It doesn't matter how bad Israel is -- but Hamas is STILL wrong in shooting rockets into civilian areas.
It doesn't matter how bad the US is -- but flying planes into the WTC is still wrong.

Any attempt to justify the terrorist acts or spin them as bad but understandable means one has lost all objectivity.

You still haven't answered my original question (perhaps it got buried in a lot of rhetoric): why is it that despite a myriad of minorities living in assorted countries, one only sees movements directed only at Muslims? One never hears of organized movements against any other group as frequently as against Muslims.

To me, it is unfair ... especially since a vast majority of the victims of assorted Islamic terrorism are also Muslims ... but that fact is lost because no one speaks for those victims.



Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
36. Don't thank me. Thank Google and the 57.5 seconds I had spare yesterday...
Wed Jan 7, 2015, 12:26 AM
Jan 2015

Sorry, but blaming immigrants solely because they're Muslim for anti-Muslim bigotry by extremist neo-Nazi style groups IS a bigoted attitude that I'd expect to see on RW forums, but not on DU. And when it comes to juries and bigotry on DU, there's been some shockingly bad jury decisions on some posts. I don't think any form of bigotry has been immune, so claiming that a jury didn't hide a post that contained bigoted views isn't exactly a glowing endorsement.

As for yr >95% of terrorists are Muslim guesstimate, yr in interesting company with that number. Remember a week or so back when you linked to Pamela Geller in support of one of yr 'arguments' about Muslims, and I showed you that she was listed as an extremist by the Southern Poverty Law Centre? Well, this time we're heading back to the SPLC's Hatewatch section to hear from Republican state Senator Michael Fair, who like you believes that over 95% of terrorists are Muslims.

SC Pol Says ‘99%’ of Global Terrorism Comes From Muslims


Terror is only terror when Muslims are responsible, according to South Carolina state Sen. Michael Fair (R-Greenville), who recently sponsored legislation that would ban Shariah law in the state’s courts.

That much was made clear again during a Hatewatch interview with Fair Thursday, a day after he told the Think Progress blog that “99%, probably” of all terror attacks worldwide in the last three decades was carried out by Islamic groups. That estimate isn’t even close to accurate, and serves no obvious purpose but to vilify hundreds of millions of people around the globe for political ends.

Obviously, the threat from radical Islamic terror groups such as Al Qaeda is very real. But terrorism is hardly limited to Muslims. The world has endured countless acts of terrorism committed by non-Muslim perpetrators in recent decades — from the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) to the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka to Basque separatists in Spain to radical-right attacks in the United States, including the 1995 bombing of the Oklahoma City federal building. In the United States alone, there have been scores of other terrorist plots and attacks since that Oklahoma attack left 168 men, women and children dead. Just this March, a neo-Nazi activist was charged with attempting to use a homemade bomb to murder hundreds of Martin Luther King Day parade marchers in Spokane, Wash.

Countless experts on terrorism have pointed out the large number of non-Islamic terror conspiracies and attacks. The FBI reportedly has said that two-thirds of all terrorism between 1980 and 2001 in the United States was conducted by non-Islamic American extremists; from 2002 to 2005, a period when anti-Islamic sentiment exploded in the aftermath of the World Trade Center attacks, that percentage grew to 95%. Last year, FBI Director Robert Mueller testified to Congress that “home-grown and lone-wolf extremists,” including domestic jihadists, had come to constitute a threat as serious as Al Qaeda. More recently, Harper’s Magazine, citing the Muslim Public Affairs Council, said in its May 2011 issue that there had been 10 confirmed “terrorist plots against the United States perpetrated by Muslims in 2010,” while 25 came from non-Muslims.

So where did the senator from the Palmetto State come to believe that “99%” of all terrorism comes from Muslims? He said he has read enough books on the subject to make him an expert. “Jihad is an Islamic concept,” Fair told Hatewatch. “It comes from their books.” And anyway, he added, “I did not say that, I don’t think.” Reminded that his “99%” remark had been videotaped, he retreated. “Maybe I did say that, but what I thought I said was of any significance, large.”

In a bizarre moment, Fair told Hatewatch that Think Progress had misunderstood his comments. He wasn’t referring to Muslim terrorists but to “radical Islamic Middle Eastern men” — a distinction clear only to him.

Politically, it is understandable why Fair might feel comfortable painting terrorism as a purely Muslim phenomenon. In the last year, anti-Muslim sentiment has been burgeoning in the United States, where one state, Oklahoma, recently passed an anti-Shariah amendment to the state constitution (it is currently stayed by a federal judge). At least 13 other states have considered similar legislation to outlaw the use of Shariah, or Islamic religious law, in U.S. courts — even though legal experts agree that that would be impossible under the constitution. Several politicians, including former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, recently have bashed Muslims publicly as a way of building political support in certain quarters.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2011/05/20/south-carolina-state-senator-says-99-of-global-terrorism-comes-from-muslims/


As for Modi, I'm going to ask the obvious question. Why is it acceptable at DU to support a RW politician like him? It'd be like me as an Australian floating round DU singing the praises of Tony Abbott (that's the current RW Australian PM) for his, uh, stringent economic policies while totally ignoring that on all other issues he's the exact opposite of what left-wingers should support.

I really hope you take the time to read up on bigotry against Muslims and alter yr views accordingly...
 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
22. Although I do occasionally visit this forum
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:06 PM
Jan 2015

I am far from a biased ideologue. I like facts. Facts are useful. Opinions based on facts can be examined with reference to the facts.

Are all acts of terrorism committed with a claim of a religion motivations actually solely motivated by a commitment to some aspect of the religion? Are Burma's Buddhist-monk-instigated terrorist attacks against Muslims based on a Buddhist principle or socioeconomic problems resulting from a rapid transition away from a strictly repressive military government? I expect that an expert on terrorism such as yourself should have a researched, fact-supported answer to such a question.

I also wonder what the level of terrorism in the world involving self-identified Muslims was prior to the 2003 American invasion of Iraq? Local religions often figure quite prominently in resistance efforts against invaders. Do you have before and after statistics (e.g., facts) concerning this question? Terrorism throughout the world tends to occur in contexts of recent or active warfare, as well as environments of severe repression of ethnic groups. Militarily weak combatants tend to resort to asymmetrical warfare, such as terrorism. The most intense world warfare during the past 10 years has taken place in the country formerly known as Iraq and its surrounding area. A lot of ethnic-based asymmetrical warfare was unleashed by the full-scale invasion and occupation of Iraq by the United States of America and a few allies. Of course, if virtually the entire population of a region adheres to a particular religious belief, then most terrorist acts committed by people in the region will, simply on the basis of demographics, be committed by adherents to that religion.

Do you have long-term statistics which include, for example, Catholic and Protestant sectarian terrorism in Ireland and the UK? The Aum Shinrikyo 1995 ricin terrorist attack in Japan? State-sponsored terrorism such as killings of Palestinians by Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Gaza and the West Bank? How much terrorism in, say, 1970-1980 was by Muslims? 1980-1990? 1990-2000?

What about relatively atheistic terrorists? Timothy McVeigh, for example, claimed no religious affiliation when he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building. What are the statistics on apparently non-religiously motivated terrorism? You apparently must be privy to such statistics, with your claims. Semi-religious motivations, such as those espoused by many so-called 'Sovereign Citizens' groups, which happen to be the greatest organized threat to United States law enforcement today? Drug-related terrorism in Mexico and Central and South America? Basque separatism in Spain by ETA? The Black Liberation Army in the US in the early 1970s? The Japanese Red Army? FARC in Columbia and the (now ruling) ANC in South Africa?

If you don't have statistics on all of the above, then shut up and learn something before you accuse people of being 'biased ideologues' and claim to know something about a topic you are clueless on.


 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
21. Sounds much like political parties-- each side rationalizing its own superiority at the expense of..
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 01:31 PM
Jan 2015

"The problem comes from some people believing that their way is superior, other people's ways are inferior and the other people should be forced to believe as they do..."

Sounds much like political parties-- each side rationalizing its own superiority at the expense of all others.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
11. Is there one single German politician advocating for sharia law in Germany? No? Not even one?
Mon Jan 5, 2015, 10:51 PM
Jan 2015

Then the "Patriotic" Europeans against the Islamization of the West can shut the fuck up.

I bet they are almost as "patriotic" as our tea party.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
23. Would be interesting to see who exactly started that "sharia law fear". I think that line
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 02:06 PM
Jan 2015

started to be used mainstream first in the USA about 10 -14 years ago?, along with the anti-Muslim groups ramped up by 9-11 fears.

Was it one of foxes early statements they made along with their anti-Muslim TV 'fear-news'? I can't remember. Someone clever with search engines needs to reveal who started and pushed the "Sharia Law" statement. It's spread to Europe now!

reorg

(3,317 posts)
26. In Germany I'm positive
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:24 PM
Jan 2015

it was this asshole:

As German journalist Henryk Broder put it after the 2006 riots over the Danish cartoons of Muhammad: "Objectively speaking, the cartoon controversy was a tempest in a teacup. But subjectively it was a show of strength and, in the context of the 'clash of civilizations,' a dress rehearsal for the real thing. The Muslims demonstrated how quickly and effectively they can mobilize the masses, and the free West showed that it has nothing to counter the offensive -- nothing but fear, cowardice and an overriding concern about the balance of trade. Now the Islamists know that they are dealing with a paper tiger whose roar is nothing but a tape recording."

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3501


These words, among others by the same author, figured prominently in the "manifesto" of mass murderer Breivik in Norway.

Mainstream politics bred Breivik

In Germany the pernicious campaign against Islamism has been led by the ardent Zionist and former leftist Hendrik Broder, who is cited positively several times in Breivik’s manifesto. Broder pens his anti-Islamist diatribes for one of Germany’s main daily papers, Die Welt, and its most read weekly magazine, Der Spiegel.

Last year Broder received significant support in his campaign from the Social Democratic Party member and former Berlin finance senator Thilo Sarrazin, who wrote his own bigoted tract defaming the country’s Arab and Turkish communities—Germany Abolishes Itself.

http://marxistupdate.blogspot.de/2011/07/mainstream-politics-bred-breivik.html


At the other end of the spectrum are political commentators who write from a neo-conservative or culturally conservative perspective. They do not directly support the idea that there is a deliberate conspiracy theory to Islamicise Europe and impose multiculturalism, and they certainly do not advocate violence. Rather they warn that through omission, through naivity, through an unwillingness to act, or even recognise the dangers ahead, Liberal elites leave Europe vulnerable to Islamisation. These include, in the UK, Conservative Education Minister Michael Gove (author of Celsius 7/7), Douglas Murray (Director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, Associate Director of the Henry Jackson Society and author of Neoconservativism: Why we Need it), the Christian Zionist Baroness Caroline Cox (former education advisor to Margaret Thatcher), Melanie Phillips (columnist on the Daily Mail, formerly of the Spectator, and author of Londonistan: How Britain has created a Terror State Within); in Germany, the philosopher and cynic Henryk M. Broder (writer on Der Spiegel, Die Welt and author of Hurrah We Capitulate: On the desire to cave in). For such neoconservative writers, combating Islamisation is also part of their duty, as intellectuals, to combat the kind of civilisational decline, and the sapping of the European creative spirit, that the German writer and philosopher Oswald Spengler identified as the key threat to western civilisation in his 1918 text The Decline of the West.

These neoconservatives also share the counterjihadists’and extreme Right’s fascination with Israel as a muscular nation, uncorrupted by European decadence (ie cultural relativism and hatred of its colonial past) and thus best placed to defend civilisational values in the face of the Islamic onslaught. Indeed, the extreme Right, which is uniting today under the banner of the International Freedom Alliance, has issued the Jerusalem Declaration12 in support of more illegal Settlements in the West Bank and greater commitment to Israel as ‘the centre of the fight against Muslims’, on the basis that ‘if Jerusalem falls, Athens, Rome, Amsterdam and Nashville will fall’.13 An ardent defence of Israel is also very much part of the DNA of neoconservative commentators such as Douglas Murray, Baroness Cox, Melanie Phillips and Henryk M. Broder.

http://www.irr.org.uk/pdf2/ERA_BriefingPaper5.pdf

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
27. Thank you, thats very interesting information. American 'media' must have picked it up from there,
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:31 PM
Jan 2015

about the same time 2006.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
20. Germany should have kicked out David Duke much earlier. They let him spread the hate for a year,
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 01:15 PM
Jan 2015

before they jailed and kicked him out.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
25. Great news: Counter-protests dwarf German anti-Islam rallies
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:13 PM
Jan 2015

A record 18,000 people marched on the streets of Dresden on Monday (5 January) against what they call the Islamisation of Europe, but counter-protests outnumbered them all over Germany.

Launched in October, the so-called Patriotic Europeans against the Islamisation of the West (Pegida) movement has been growing steadily in support over the past few weeks. It organises "evening strolls" every Monday in the former east German town, where the far-right is more present than in other parts of Germany. Neo-nazi marches are held every year in Dresden, accompanied by counter-marches, on the day commemorating the Allied bombing of the town.

On Monday, counter-demonstrations in support of refugees and a "colourful" Germany were held in Dresden and attracted 3,000 people, but in other major German cities, they outnumbered Pegida supporters.

In Berlin, police estimates that some 5,000 counter-demonstrators blocked hundreds of Pegida supporters from marching along their planned route. DPS news agency estimates that a total of 22,000 anti-Pegida demonstrators gathered in Stuttgart, Muenster and Hamburg.

http://euobserver.com/social/127095

It is great to see so many Germans march against the anti-Islam haters.

I love the "support of refugees and a "colourful" Germany". A desire for a 'colourful Germany is not something many non-Germans think of with regard to the country.

 

Burf-_-

(205 posts)
35. LOLOOLOLOLOLOLOL OH SPLENDID !
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 06:42 PM
Jan 2015

Lol Bigot Brigade ?, lol more like... Apologist Legion...glad I'm on your ignore list !

 

closeupready

(29,503 posts)
32. LOL - such as half the people posting this thread who are on my ignore list.
Tue Jan 6, 2015, 03:48 PM
Jan 2015

First post I can see is #7, and then almost every post between 10 and 20 is invisible...

Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Some 30,000 Germans prote...