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inanna

(3,547 posts)
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 05:53 PM Jan 2015

Slain policeman’s family warns against confusing extremists with Muslims

Source: France24

Latest update : 2015-01-10

Ahmed Merabet, himself a Muslim, was one of the 17 victims of a three-day Islamist killing spree that has shaken France to the core.

He was killed by Cherif and Said Kouachi as they escaped from the Paris office of Charlie Hebdo magazine after having mowed down 11 people inside.

Graphic amateur video of Merabet’s death circulated widely online following Wednesday’s attack, with many media showing edited versions.

"I am now telling all racists, Islamophobes and anti-Semites that one must not confuse extremists with Muslims," his brother, Malek Merabet, said in an emotional press conference Saturday in Livry-Gargan (Seine-Saint-Denis).

Read more: http://www.france24.com/en/20150110-family-slain-policeman-warns-confusing-extremists-muslims-charlie-hebdo-ahmed-merabet/



55 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Slain policeman’s family warns against confusing extremists with Muslims (Original Post) inanna Jan 2015 OP
many here confuse them also uhnope Jan 2015 #1
Unbelievable. People are being blinded by the inability to seperate the usurpers of a religion from Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #2
Sadly, very sadly believable to me. RiverNoord Jan 2015 #22
Is a terrorist a true Muslim or is the one that denounces the terrorist a true Muslim????????? politicman Jan 2015 #29
The error is in the expression "a true Muslim." Igel Jan 2015 #35
More like different people interpreting the religion to suit their cultural needs..... politicman Jan 2015 #39
I would have voted to Leave It Alone 840high Jan 2015 #21
Watch the video. His brother is eloquent and speaks for many LuckyLib Jan 2015 #3
Where are these voices of reason on American TV? France and Germany are doing everything right Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #4
are you sure they are not there? uhnope Jan 2015 #10
I watched the video inanna Jan 2015 #23
The difference is the laws that many Muslim countries have. Thats the giveaway. 7962 Jan 2015 #5
k&r Burf-_- Jan 2015 #6
What are you talking about? What nation is "sanctioning" this attack? Name one of these many nations. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #7
Where did I say any nation sanctioned the attack? You used quotes, did you READ the post? 7962 Jan 2015 #11
sigh.... Burf-_- Jan 2015 #16
Saudi Arabia is one of the worst. SunSeeker Jan 2015 #20
Thanks for bringing that up. Perfect example of what I mean 7962 Jan 2015 #24
I am so sick of people like you twisting reason to its breaking point to justify your politics. RiverNoord Jan 2015 #28
You're having a hard time understanding the post. I'll try to explain 7962 Jan 2015 #31
No - I understand your posts perfectly. RiverNoord Jan 2015 #51
Well, at least you're impressed with yourself aren't you? 7962 Jan 2015 #52
fred.... Burf-_- Jan 2015 #13
Sam Harris is your go to guy? Go for it. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #17
and Niel Shenvi is yours...lol Burf-_- Jan 2015 #19
So then, do we condemn every follower of Islam? Including the policeman in the OP? nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #8
That is the message, it is a joke of a message. Fred Sanders Jan 2015 #12
I did not condemn every follower of Islam in my post 7962 Jan 2015 #26
Sure there's a difference, just not as much of one as people like to believe. nomorenomore08 Jan 2015 #45
Agreed 7962 Jan 2015 #46
excellent points. a blogger is now being blogged and put in prison in one of the arab countries samsingh Jan 2015 #14
Good post. 840high Jan 2015 #18
The policeman and his family are in France. What's yr point? Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #25
Read my post. Very simple. Those people are not who I am talking about. nt 7962 Jan 2015 #27
I read it. Seeing yr not talking about the OP, was there any purpose other than to derail? Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #30
Many times here the post HAS to be simple. 7962 Jan 2015 #33
Simplistic, not simple. btw, I added something to my post you just replied to... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #34
Yet they continue to support those who foment the extreme laws 7962 Jan 2015 #36
'They' as in most Muslims? Again, what does that have to do with the French family of the cop? Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #38
And what country are YOU from? 7962 Jan 2015 #40
Don't like yr own logic when it's turned back on you, I see... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #48
And what country are YOU from? 7962 Jan 2015 #49
I'm from a small and obscure country called Murdochistan... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #53
Yet, I still always wanted to visit there..... 7962 Jan 2015 #54
Travel tips for if you ever do - avoid the Murdoch press and cricket games... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #55
Its not like the Muslim populations get to decide which laws they have to follow........ politicman Jan 2015 #32
Oh yes, we're very supportive of Indonesian Muslim led countries; or Iran, etc. Right. nt 7962 Jan 2015 #37
'Indonesian Muslim led countries'?? Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #41
Well, yes, but in name only 7962 Jan 2015 #43
No, not in name only. Using that sort of thing, the US is only a secular democracy in name only... Violet_Crumble Jan 2015 #47
wow, is that the best you could come up with, hahaha politicman Jan 2015 #42
As I said, the only way to stop it is from within. 7962 Jan 2015 #44
You know who scares me the most? Bragi Jan 2015 #9
so is the anger placed against those who killed his brother in the name of religion samsingh Jan 2015 #15
Christians blackcrow Jan 2015 #50

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
2. Unbelievable. People are being blinded by the inability to seperate the usurpers of a religion from
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 06:09 PM
Jan 2015

the vast majority of that religion...does David Duke represent Christianity? Because he says so?

The leader of Hezbolla gets it, how do so many Americans not?

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
22. Sadly, very sadly believable to me.
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 08:38 PM
Jan 2015

There is no distinction between 'Muslim' and 'terrorist' for a great many Americans, and many who post on this site.

Logically, it's ridiculous - around 1.6 billion people in the world are Muslims. Among them are tremendous differences in culture, politics, laws, values, norms, etc., just as there are among people who identify with every other major religion in the world.

I believe that there must be parties among us, wealthy power brokers, who see a conflict between typically European/American/'Western' values and typically Asian/African/'Eastern' values as desirable, as a distraction from, well, consolidation of corporate power, the widening gulf between the rich and poor and the slow fading of the middle class, and a great deal more.

Unfortunately, it seems like people just want to buy into it. I'll never understand that part.

 

politicman

(710 posts)
29. Is a terrorist a true Muslim or is the one that denounces the terrorist a true Muslim?????????
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:18 PM
Jan 2015

And that's the thing that a lot of people cant seem to understand, that Islam is not one big entity, Islam is in fact a billion different religions that resides in a billion different hearts around the world simply because each and every person can interpret for themselves what the religion permits and what it doesn't permit.


You can have one Imam take a passage out of the Koran and convince his followers that that passage calls for terror actions, and you can have a completely different Imam in the same suburb take that very same passage and convince his followers that that passage strictly forbids such actions.
Both Imams think in their hearts that their interpretation is the correct one and that they are proper Muslim's.


So the question becomes, How can any reasonable person go about deciding which Imam and his followers is a true representation of Islam and Muslim's?

Igel

(35,191 posts)
35. The error is in the expression "a true Muslim."
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:42 PM
Jan 2015

It allows those who are Muslims to ignore what others who say they're Muslims and to protect themselves and their religion.

The terrorists are true Muslims.

Those who do bad things aren't true Muslims.

IS has no true Muslims.

Those who hate education aren't true Muslims.

Muhammed, by that definition, might not be a true Muslim.

There is no group called Muslims. And Islam is then a platonic, ethereal norm that may well have no adherents or believers and therefore be ineffable. It becomes a ludicrous exercise in nihilism for the purpose of protecting one's self, one's group, one's totem, all because there can be only one such entity. Now everybody who upholds the five pillars and has recited the shahada is a Muslim; now there's no diversity because Islam is so strictly and narrowly construed that there is possibly only a handful of "true Muslims." But there's only one Islam because fitna is still disallowed. We just change the boundaries as necessary, minute by minute, to maintain one pretense or the other.

Water fleas are smarter than to fall for this.

At some point the religion and the culture it's intertwined with have to be related to behavior. Otherwise we have a culture and a religion--both of which are defined in terms of behaviors and ideals--sort of hanging divorced from the population that purports to bear that culture and behavior. Is the population devoid of behavior? Or is the religion and culture diverse and not quite homogeneous, but still to be regarded in some sense as single entities.

It matters when we look at things like "culture" and whether there can be such a thing as genocide by way of cultural elimination and assimilation. If there is not culture or religion held by a population, such genocide is impossible. Instead, either it's genocide whenever a person's unique, unparallelled culture and religion is altered or taken over; or there's no genocide. This is more atomistic than reasonable.

 

politicman

(710 posts)
39. More like different people interpreting the religion to suit their cultural needs.....
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 10:55 PM
Jan 2015

Except talk to a terrorist or an extremist and they will tell you that they consider normal or moderate Muslims to be as much of a non-believer as a Christian or Jew, this they find to acceptable to target and kill these fake Muslims.


On the flip side, talk to a normal or moderate Muslim and they will tell you that the extremists and terrorists are non-believers and as such are the real fake Muslims.


So in effect you are left with 2 kinds of people that call themselves Muslims and each group believes the other is a fake Muslim, or a non-believer and as such shouldn't be referred to as a true Muslim.


So again, which one is the true Muslim, is it the terrorist/extremist or is it the normal/moderate Muslim?


Or maybe you can stop thinking in black and white terms and think outside the box for once, and understand that Islam is a religion that at its basic level is a Jihad that every believer fights in their heart to refrain from sinning, and it does not matter how many times one refers to himself as a Muslim, the proof of the pudding that determines whether someone is truly a Muslim is how well they abide by the tenets of Islam.


But to understand this concept, you need to keep in mind that the tenets of Islam can be interpreted in different ways by different peoples.

To illustrate this I ask you to look at how the different sects of Islam came about. All it took was one person or a small group of people to change the way that certain passages of the Koran should be interpreted, thus you ended up with the 2 different sects of Sunni and Shia who each believe the other is not a real Muslim. Now think of how many sects and beliefs and interpretations there are among Muslims, and you can see quite easily how one set of peoples beliefs and interpretations shouldn't be referred to as the true representation of the Islamic religion.

LuckyLib

(6,814 posts)
3. Watch the video. His brother is eloquent and speaks for many
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 06:19 PM
Jan 2015

who are heartbroken by this continuing craziness.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
4. Where are these voices of reason on American TV? France and Germany are doing everything right
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 06:23 PM
Jan 2015

that America had done wrong...some learn lessons from history.

 

uhnope

(6,419 posts)
10. are you sure they are not there?
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 07:20 PM
Jan 2015

I don't watch much TV except PBS, and the voices of reason are well-represented there

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
5. The difference is the laws that many Muslim countries have. Thats the giveaway.
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 06:27 PM
Jan 2015

When we are supposed to all be quick to say "they dont represent Islam", it seems that we are to forget that most Muslim nations have laws against converting to another religion. They have laws against just BEING gay. They have laws that reduce women to 3rd class citizens. They have laws that punish women for the acts of men. They refuse to accept the right of Israel to exist and endorse the removal of Israel. And the fact that anyone who DOES decide to speak out against what is endorsed as law is harshly dealt with BY THE STATE. And this is just the short list. Its state-sponsored laws that makes this different. And
When someone brings up Tim McVeigh or someone who bombs an abortion clinic, they're forgetting that the US does not sanction any of these actions with their laws.

Fred Sanders

(23,946 posts)
7. What are you talking about? What nation is "sanctioning" this attack? Name one of these many nations.
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 06:48 PM
Jan 2015

You are losing the debate because one side has reason, and other just has hate, and France is not
America when it comes to bravery, fighting back with what you hope other nations will sanction is pathetic.

Stop watching the fear mongering American media, the French media are handling it with calm and calls of condemnation for the terrorists and support for Actual, real, true Muslims, like the one that died defending the right of Hebdo to make mocking cartoons, and one hid in a freezer and saved many more souls with his actions.

So, again, what are you on about?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026060260

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
11. Where did I say any nation sanctioned the attack? You used quotes, did you READ the post?
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 07:23 PM
Jan 2015

Everything I said was factual. Thats the bottom line. You may not like it, but it doesnt make me wrong. Would you like me to post a list of countries and their bigoted, homophobic, misogynistic etc laws? Saying violence "doesnt represent Islam" ignores the fact that many of these countries laws endorse violence against others based only on religious beliefs.
And as I said, when some Muslims do speak or act against these laws or governments, they are dealt with harshly. Unless, of course, they live OUT of those countries.
Thats reality.

SunSeeker

(51,367 posts)
20. Saudi Arabia is one of the worst.
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 08:26 PM
Jan 2015

If Saudi Arabia thinks it is appropriate to inflict 1,000 lashes on a blogger who "insulted Islam," the extremists' actions are only different in degree, not kind.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/news/saudi-arabia-commence-public-flogging-activist-sentenced-1000-lashes-2015-01-08

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
24. Thanks for bringing that up. Perfect example of what I mean
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 08:51 PM
Jan 2015

How can someone act like this stuff isnt whats happening?

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
28. I am so sick of people like you twisting reason to its breaking point to justify your politics.
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:13 PM
Jan 2015

On a post above, you equated differences in nations' internal civil rights norms and laws with a refusal to accept the legitimacy of a specific nation - Israel. There is no logical connection between the two. Does refusing to accept the Russian annexation of the Crimea as legitimate mean that Poland has major human rights problems? One is utterly unrelated to the other.

Yes, a few countries in the region we refer to as the 'middle east' have what many Americans would consider severely repressive laws concerning political dissent, corporal punishment, and gender relations. So do almost exclusively Christian countries such as Uganda - the 'kill the gays' law that was very recently signed by the country's President (life in prison for simply being gay - just barely got watered down from the death penalty) and was heavily backed by American fundamentalist Christians, is a crystal clear example.

In the Ugandan example, does that mean that Ugandan Christains are terrorists? Or, perhaps we should militarily intervene in order to force the Ugandans to respect our recently evolved norms concerning homosexuality? Is it impossible to simply accept that people around the world have different perspectives on things, including what we consider human rights?

American norms and, say (in the case of this topic), French norms differ immensely. For example, the French are extremely secular, and ban the wearing of virtually any religious symbol in primary and secondary school. This includes crosses, stars of David, headscarves, etc. Could such a law ever pass in the United States? No - it would go strongly against American values and would, with no doubt, violate the provisions of the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. How about European laws and norms concerning private ownership of firearms? UK laws concerning wide-scale use of surveillance cameras in almost every significant public space?

It seems to me that, if you are so upset about what you seem to consider human rights in the 'middle east,' you should also be fiercely speaking out against extremist secularism in France and Ugandan brutality against gays. But you don't. It wouldn't serve to reinforce your biases or political perspective.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
31. You're having a hard time understanding the post. I'll try to explain
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:23 PM
Jan 2015

I mention the homophobic laws as an add on to the other extreme positions. As well as the Israel issue. Poland may be against Russia's annexation of Crimea; they do not call for the elimination of Russia. Many Muslim leaders & some countries do call for the elimination of Israel. Certainly other countries also have repressive laws against gays. But there are no anti-gay plots being carried out across the world.
What other countries call for the death or imprisonment for one who decides to change their religion? And also make it their national law?

 

RiverNoord

(1,150 posts)
51. No - I understand your posts perfectly.
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:20 AM
Jan 2015

I definitely do not require your 'explanation,' as your stances are quite clear. You are very much pro-Likud modern Israel and anti-Islam everywhere. You are willing to use twisted mis-translations such as 'calling for the elimination of Israel,' as support for your perspectives. I also believe that anti-'apostasy' laws are utterly wrong - but that doesn't mean that you and I are right about this. These laws are simply means of social control by authorities, and every country has those. By the way, the following verses are from the King James Bible - Deuteronomy 13, verses 6-10:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die
; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.


Of course, it's also part of the Torah. The concept of apostasy (the term is of Greek derivation) originated with Judaism/Christianity, not Islam.

'There are no anti-gay plots being carried out across the world'? Are you really that stupid? How much terrorism have gays suffered over the years, and how much continues? Lots. Russia, a Christian majority nation, has outlawed virtually any form of expression that suggests that being gay is OK. Concurrently, there have been organized, video recorded brutal attacks on gay men throughout the country, which are, by their very nature, 'anti-gay plots.' Do some research. It's ugly.

Finally, are you against Israel's nearly continuous annexation of land seized in several of its wars? This is being done in direct contravention to the Geneva Conventions and the United Nations treaties on the treatment of land occupied as a result of warfare. We are signatory to these conventions and treaties. Are you as repulsed by such open, decades-long violations of internationally established human rights as you are by anti-apostasy laws in some Muslim countries? I already know the answer, of course. By your statement 'You're having a hard time understanding the post,' you strongly imply an intellectual basis for your arguments, which someone like myself, who is, frankly, wiser and more aware of many aspects of human nature than you are, is unable to comprehend. You're not only ignorant - you're condescendingly ignorant, which is actually an effective strategy of criticism employed by many of the worst of the Republican political party.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
52. Well, at least you're impressed with yourself aren't you?
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 12:58 AM
Jan 2015

I made no mention of Israel's actions because thats not the point. We dont make policy for the removal of Russia when they seize land. I've pointed out Russia's anti-gay problems in a few OPs of my own. Than you for the bible verse as well; it'll help explain calls for violence in the bible to a few of my friends. But rarely do we see large scale christian leaders call for the death of any who change religions. NONE of the so-called "Christian countries" legislate punishment up to and including death for something as simple as a change of religion. To point out troubling laws of other countries has nothing to do with the religious legislation by many Muslim countries. And making it a matter of law makes it a lot easier for terror to be accepted or ignored.
I stand by the main point of my previous posts; the only way things will change for the better with regard to Islamists, is when the Muslim people stand up from within and say "No, we will not tolerate this behavior anymore". But its easier said than done, because there is a high probability that speaking out will be met with violence. As we've already seen in a few cases.
We cannot bomb them into change.
Meanwhile, keep watching as things continue to get worse, which is the same thing I said here years ago.

 

Burf-_-

(205 posts)
13. fred....
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 08:09 PM
Jan 2015

You just can't handle it can you, the fact there are now two tribes on the liberal side of this issue can you ?

Most are still being apologists for islam (religion) like yourself, and the others accept the reality that the radicals of the religion are farmed from it's moderates by it's extremist divisive preachers who instruct their followers to act literally on the violent hate filled passages in the quran . That's a fact fred and you can't make it go away any more than you can make the quran itself go away. As for the fact of the shop owner being muslim, so what, it's not like he was made by any "god" do what he did, he acted as a decent human being should completely of his own cognizance. He acted good for goodness sake in the heat of the moment, even though later he may later credit it to "god" himself. It wasn't even about the shoppers being jewish, it was about them being human. (The same go's for the police officer who died needlessly, she was doing her duty, and was a decent person).

Who did act violently in the name of their god/faith/religion in this situation fred ?

Heres a great point on Religious moderates you may have heard before, or maybe not:

" Religious moderates also tend to imagine that there is some bright line
of separation between extremist and moderate religion. But there isn’t.
Scripture itself remains a perpetual engine of extremism: because, while
He may be many things, the God of the Bible and the Qur’an is not a
moderate. Reading scripture more closely, one does not find reasons to
be a religious moderate; one finds reasons to be a proper religious
lunatic—to fear the fires of hell, to despise nonbelievers, to persecute
homosexuals, etc. Of course, anyone can cherry-pick scripture and find
reasons to love his neighbor and to turn the other cheek. But the more
fully a person grants credence to these books, the more he will be
convinced that infidels, heretics, and apostates deserve to be smashed
to atoms in God’s loving machinery of justice."

~Sam Harris~ From: 'Letter To a Christian Nation'



PS.
As for the Fear mongers on FOX News and National Review Online who are also inciting things with ACTUAL racist agenda's, and patent lies, stirring up christian zealotry....fuck them.... they aren't helping damn thing, everyone here knows that even me.



nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
8. So then, do we condemn every follower of Islam? Including the policeman in the OP?
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 07:12 PM
Jan 2015

If not, then what, on a practical level, do you suggest?

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
26. I did not condemn every follower of Islam in my post
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:12 PM
Jan 2015

You're letting Fred cloud your thinking. I specifically said that those muslims who DO speak out are dealt with harshly; unless they no longer live in those countries. I'm just pointing out that there is a big difference between what is happening within the Islamic faith and what goes on in Judaism or Christianity or others. And the reason is the governmental connection to extreme behavior by making laws that endorse it. Only an uprising against extremism from within the religion and within the countries that legislate extreme behavior will stop what is happening.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
45. Sure there's a difference, just not as much of one as people like to believe.
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 12:01 AM
Jan 2015

Certainly (most) American fundamentalists aren't as extreme, but they can be pretty scary. Michael Bray, Randall Terry, John Lofton, R.J. Rushdoony... I could go on, honestly...

"Only an uprising against extremism from within the religion and within the countries that legislate extreme behavior will stop what is happening."

Can't argue with this. Though there are those brave souls who seek change even within the harshest of environments.

samsingh

(17,571 posts)
14. excellent points. a blogger is now being blogged and put in prison in one of the arab countries
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 08:14 PM
Jan 2015

what does that say?

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
25. The policeman and his family are in France. What's yr point?
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 08:57 PM
Jan 2015

Did you try watching the video of his family and what they said before knee-jerking? How does what you said have to do with them, the dead policeman, or French Muslims? Are they somehow responsible in some way?

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
30. I read it. Seeing yr not talking about the OP, was there any purpose other than to derail?
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:21 PM
Jan 2015

And I agree on yr post. It was very, very simplistic.

btw, when the family of the murdered officer speak out against equating Muslims in general with the sicko extremists who carried out the terrorist attack, surely you'd agree that someone who appears in the thread with a response that tries to argue that Muslims in general are extreme types is someone who isn't getting the memo that painting most or all members of a group as being similar to the terrorists? That's the memo that Marie Le Pen and her ilk just refuse to get, btw...

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
33. Many times here the post HAS to be simple.
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:31 PM
Jan 2015

And it does have to do with the OP. They say its not representative of their religion. Yet several countries DO call for death just for changing religions. They also call for imprisonment, or worse,of any who "offend" the prophet. Its a silent endorsement.
But, your opinion is yours to have. When I've brought this up in yrs past I was slammed by some then, too. But as the yrs have gone by, looks like I was right all along, as they expand their terrorist actions across the world. Look up how many attacks there have been in the past years.
The only way to defeat this is for an uprising from within the nations and the religion itself. And thats going to be tough for them to do.

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
34. Simplistic, not simple. btw, I added something to my post you just replied to...
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:34 PM
Jan 2015

It bears repeating seeing you now claim what you said had to do with the OP, not that you'll get it...

When the family of the murdered officer speak out against equating Muslims in general with the sicko extremists who carried out the terrorist attack, surely you'd agree that someone who appears in the thread with a response that tries to argue that Muslims in general are extreme types is someone who isn't getting the memo that painting most or all members of a group as being similar to the terrorists? That's the memo that Marie Le Pen and her ilk just refuse to get, btw...

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
36. Yet they continue to support those who foment the extreme laws
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 10:27 PM
Jan 2015

And yes, they do it en masse. Just this week, Saudi Arabia started flogging a man 1000 times a week for saying something about the prophet. Extreme laws passed in accordance with their RELIGION. There is no other example.
Which is why change must come from within.

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
38. 'They' as in most Muslims? Again, what does that have to do with the French family of the cop?
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 10:31 PM
Jan 2015

Sorry, but I'm finding the way you've come in and crapped all over this thread with the family of one of the victims of the terrorists calling for people not to paint all Muslims as being extremists totally and utterly disgusting.

You know what? Yr an American, right? One country that does have extreme laws is Saudi Arabia. Yr country has and still does support that country. Using yr 'logic' I'm going to now follow it and insist that Americans continue to support those who forment extreme laws. And yes, they do it en masse.

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
53. I'm from a small and obscure country called Murdochistan...
Mon Jan 12, 2015, 04:01 AM
Jan 2015

The adherents of our two state sanctioned religions were Cricketists and Murdochists. Murdochists controlled and owned the media and kept the Cricketists happy by devoting at least 12 pages each issue to reporting on events at their holy houses of worship. Those of us who silently refused to succumb to the pus-filled growth of either religion didn't understand the Cricketists strange ways, where they'd spend five days at a time at their religious ceremonies sitting out in the sun getting burnt and drinking from their sacred brew while their spiritual leaders all dressed in white stood out in the middle of a big green field doing not much at all for the entire five days. But the Murdochists understood. The Cricket holy men were violent and would constantly slaughter the English, the Kiwis, the Indians, Pakistan, and the West Indies. These bloodbaths kept on happening with the support of the Cricketists and the enablers of the Barmy Army who'd commandeer multiple 747s and come to our small country to engage in holy war and sing to the tune of Yellow Submarine 'You all live in a convict colony! A convict colony! A convict colony!'

The Murdochists were not happy. Their main holy man took to twitter and tweeted: 'Maybe most Cricketists peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing Cricket loving cancer they must be held responsible.'

Problem was everyone thought he was a totally insane old wanker, and next thing we knew he'd vanished. We still have no idea where he went or what he did next, though there were rumours he was in some exotic land tapping phones of parents of murdered children for shits and giggles.

But the damage had been done. He'd left the remnants of his terrorist cell behind, and Andrew Bolt and Piers Ackerman continued to preach in the bloviated and dullard style so embraced by Murdochists everywhere. A smaller religion, Rugby League was decimated by the Murdochist forces, and some suspect he had a hand in reducing the five day Cricket ceremonies to smaller 20 over a side ones that suck all the spiritual significance out of the religion, but are good for adherents who are time limited.

SO DON'T TRY TO FUCKING HOLD ME RESPONSIBLE FOR MURDOCH! I WON'T STAND FOR IT!

 

politicman

(710 posts)
32. Its not like the Muslim populations get to decide which laws they have to follow........
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 09:28 PM
Jan 2015

And please do tell us which of these Muslim countries has a government that is a true representation of the people's will?

Because I am pretty sure that you know nearly all Muslim countries are governed by dictators and monarchs who alone decide what laws to implement and then imprison and kill anyone that speaks out or threatens their control.

And to also refresh your memory, these dictators and monarchs are only in control and keep their control because the west backs them after initially helping to give them that control in the first place.


So next time you want to use these 'Muslim' countries as an excuse for your Islamaphobia, make sure to remind yourself that it is our countries governments that are complicit in giving these 'Muslim' governments the power to make such laws.
And also keep in mind, that we are responsible for what our governments do because we get to elect them, whereas Muslims in 'Muslim' countries don't even have that privilege.

Kind of makes you wonder which sets of citizens of which countries hold more responsibility for the extreme laws enacted by Muslim governments, doesn't it?

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
41. 'Indonesian Muslim led countries'??
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 11:18 PM
Jan 2015

What does that even mean? Yr clearly not aware that Indonesia's a secular democracy. It's only Muslim in the same way that the US is Christian.

Violet_Crumble

(35,954 posts)
47. No, not in name only. Using that sort of thing, the US is only a secular democracy in name only...
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 02:00 AM
Jan 2015

You also have religious extremists trying to fuck things up.

Some facts, that I'm positive you'll ignore. Indonesia made the transition from an authoritarian regime to democracy back in 1998. Prior to that, Islamist parties were banned from participating in politics. After the transition to democracy they were allowed to, but have always fared poorly in the general elections. All three general elections since the transition have been won by secular parties and there's no sign of that changing.

Indonesia's generally a stable but young democracy. It has challenges like those from extremists, an economy that's not exactly a powerhouse, and corruption. But it's issues haven't been, and aren't now that it's some Muslim state with religious law. Its issue was pretty much the same as the US and other countries - wanting to control territory that doesn't belong to it (East Timor and West Papua). It finally gave up on East Timor which finally gained independence, but still occupies West Papua. So there's plenty of criticism to be aimed at Indonesia without having to make up some bullshit about it being some Muslim theocracy...

 

politicman

(710 posts)
42. wow, is that the best you could come up with, hahaha
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 11:20 PM
Jan 2015

Firstly, explain to me just how strict and extremist the ideology is in Indonesia, seeing as how you act like you are so knowledgeable about how bad Muslim countries are?

Secondly, Iran is nowhere near a democracy where the people get a voice in who leads them and what laws they enact, etc. Also keep in mind that the reason that Iran is such a theocracy is because of that one little detail that people like you never seem to mention, of that's right, the American lead overthrow of a democratic government over half a century ago. hmm.


And lastly, go look at Saudi Arabia, go look at Egypt, go look at UAE, go look at Kuwait, at Jordan, at Iraq (need I go on), and tell me again how Muslim people in those countries hold more responsibility for their governments actions than western peoples hwo get to elect the governments that prop up and support these dictators and monarchs?

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
44. As I said, the only way to stop it is from within.
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 11:28 PM
Jan 2015

And so far, every time its been attempted, the ones who take over are MORE radical than those they replaced. Although maybe Egypt is trying to remedy that situation

Bragi

(7,650 posts)
9. You know who scares me the most?
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 07:17 PM
Jan 2015

Who really scares me are people who think there are easy, black and white explanations for all this, and who are certain they know what's needed.

samsingh

(17,571 posts)
15. so is the anger placed against those who killed his brother in the name of religion
Sat Jan 10, 2015, 08:15 PM
Jan 2015

or those who are also feeling the agony of these unnecessary deaths?

 

blackcrow

(156 posts)
50. Christians
Sun Jan 11, 2015, 05:32 PM
Jan 2015

How many times in DU is it apparently acceptable to assume all Christians are like the looney tunes extremist "Christians."

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