Anti-Austerity Party Wins Decisive Victory in Greece
Source: New York Times
By JIM YARDLEY and LIZ ALDERMANJAN. 25, 2015
ATHENS Greece rejected the punishing economics of austerity on Sunday and sent a warning signal to the rest of Europe as the left-wing Syriza party won a decisive victory in national elections, positioning its tough-talking leader, Alexis Tsipras, to become the next prime minister.
With 60 percent of the vote counted, Syriza had 36 percent, almost eight points ahead of the governing center-right New Democracy Party of Prime Minister Antonis Samaras, who had conceded defeat. The only uncertainty was whether Syriza would muster an outright parliamentary majority or if it would have to form a coalition.
Appearing before a throng of supporters outside Athens University late Sunday night, Mr. Tsipras, 40, declared that the era of austerity was over and promised to revive the Greek economy. He also said his government would not allow Greeces creditors to strangle the country.
Greece will now move ahead with hope, and reach out to Europe, and Europe is going to change, he said. The verdict is clear: We will bring an end to the vicious circle of austerity.
Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/26/world/europe/greek-election-syriza.html?_r=0
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I heard Thom Hartmann saying that he thought this may happen last week.
He also mentioned that if Greece leaves other countries may follow. I'd love to hear more from people who have a better understanding of this.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Tsipras, who is back on the ballot on Sunday, has changed a lot since that last electoral run. Back then his partner was pregnant with little Ernesto. Now Tsipras spends more time carting his two kids around in the family sedan than joyriding on his beloved bike. He still isnt photographed much in a tie, but his approach is far more tempered and moderate. This time he is running on a promise not to leave the eurozone. (He now calls his 2012 campaign promise a paranoid plan.) And this time, he might just win because many of the negative projections have come true and things in Greece have gotten worse. More than 200,000 Greeks have left the country in the last five years, and austerity has forced many businesses to shutter up or go off the radar. Greeces black market economy is now estimated to account for nearly half of the countrys GDP.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/24/greece-s-alexis-tsipras-the-man-who-could-break-europe.html
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)I admit I am not very knowledgable in this area, so I appreciate a good explanation.
uhnope
(6,419 posts)The EU wanted to expand and decided to ignore a lot of its own rules to get countries in. Greece (love it but it) has long been kind of an economic basket case
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)Many are excited by the prospect of a Syriza victory. But what is the partys program and how will it be carried out?
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/syriza-election-european-left/
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)Precisely because of the austerity imposed across Europe. And this was entirely predicted. Will Merkel be able to change course or will she push Europe into a deflationary spiral? Ask Japan how hard that spiral is to break.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)and have it financed by European Banks.
Sounds pretty, but highly unlikely.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)candelista
(1,986 posts)Some of the immediate measures to be applied by a government of the left:
1.Employment program for three hundred thousand new jobs;
2.Free electricity to three hundred thousand households currently under the poverty line;
3.Program of meal subsidies to three hundred thousand families without income;
4.Program of housing guarantee;
5.Restitution of the Christmas bonus, as 13th pension, to 1.262.920 pensioners with a pension up to 700;
6.Free medical and pharmaceutical care for the uninsured unemployed;
7.Special public transport card for the long-term unemployed and those who are under the poverty line;
8.Restoration of the minimum wage to 751.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/syriza-election-european-left/
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)and Greek banks were nearly insolvent. Maybe things have changed. Free electricity isn't free. Somebody has to write a check.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Just a suggestion.
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)All that would do would be is to keep them from coming to greece and spending money.
No there are other ways to generate income that the government can do such as investing in their infrastructure in the short term and for the long term they should invest in more education for their people.
Those two things would probably help them far more than raising taxes on a handful of tourists that may or may not show up.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)credit. That is what has held them back. They would have to get out of the Euro to be able to print and value their own currency and lend themselves money. They have to raise taxes on the rich in their country if they can. But that will be a difficult task.
So they ought to try to max out their tourism income.
Have you ever been to Greece? Tourists will go to Greece no matter what it costs. It's a fantastically beautiful place. Germans are hungry for the sun because they do not see a whole lot of it in Germany in the winter. Of course it isn't just Germans. I was joking.
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)themselves to raise the cash for example.
7962
(11,841 posts)No one will do business with the Greeks if they think there is a high risk of default. But once again, promising everyone everything will win an election. Look at Venezuela; Greece will soon follow
DCBob
(24,689 posts)They dont have many options.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)miserable place in the winter. Can't all move to St. Tropez of Rome.
They won't like it at all, but if they are Greek, we shall see whether they are willing to leave.
Back in the early 1970s, the generals were in charge. They did not allow news media to be brought into Greece. The Greek people are so wonderful. Their situation is very sad.
roamer65
(36,744 posts)It's already down to 1.10 and dropping. Already people are running to the Swiss Franc.
project_bluebook
(411 posts)It may be king now but all money is fiat money.
Ramses
(721 posts)Cut cut cut is not the answer and their are large and significant uprisings against austerity policies in many Eurozone countries
7962
(11,841 posts)We need to do something about the debt. The President formed the debt commission to find the best ways to deal with it. They provided a report detailing actions to be taken. None of them are fun and easy. So the President and Congress has totally ignored the report.
So down the road we kick the can. The Greek can is the size of a Volvo.
Ramses
(721 posts)Its way past time for this. Its either the wealthy greedy few being less greedy, or targeted violent revolution will be inevitable. Im not saying I want this, but it will eventually come to this.
Pushing tens to hundred of millions of people further into debt bondage and poverty is not going to work.
7962
(11,841 posts)Certainly they should be paying more, but just this past week the President already spent whatever money os going to be raised by the higher taxes he proposed. They just keep promising more.
Ramses
(721 posts)There is plenty of wealth to tax and repatriate to Greece. And when that rightfully happens, the IMF and the 1% need to be held criminally responsible for financial terrorism against Greece and all other Eurozone countries suffering under the financial terrorism of austerity. Tens of millions in many European countries agree with my sentiment and are protesting daily.
7962
(11,841 posts)If the sole focus is on the rich, it will fail, plain and simple. As I said, regardless of the country, if it has any size to it there arent enough rich to pay for everything. Look what happened with France's 75% rate; it went away because it didnt work. The rich folks ALWAYS find a way to either hide their assets of leave.
Again, look at Venezuela.
Ramses
(721 posts)where they were stolen from in the first place. Law need to be put into place by actual people and not greedy terrorists to make sure the "folks" that think its ok to hide money and leave will be rightfully put in prisons for the rest of their natural lives where they cant terrorize millions of people anymore.
Im sure you will agree.
7962
(11,841 posts)Ramses
(721 posts)Cant run and hide all the riches forever and cant take it to fairytale land.
Massive tides of change will be handed down, sooner rather than later. Like it or not for the 1%.
unfortunately for the 1% we have information now. Very specific information on the who's and where's.
So inconvenient, isn't it?
That simply is not true at all. It's a lie made up to justify curtailing transfers to the non-wealthy. If there really was a debt problem, rest assured the transfers to the wealthy would be the first thing on the chopping block. The mere fact that they are never proposed should be proof positive that it's nothing but bullshit.
That being said, there's a lot more to the lie of the debt problem. The comparison of Greece and the US in terms of public debt is simply wrong. The reason it's wrong is because of the nature of their currencies. Greece is a user, not an issuer, of the Euro and its debts are denominated in Euros. The US is the sole issuer of the dollar and its debts are denominated in dollars. What does that mean? The US can never be forced into a debt crisis because it could simply issue the currency necessary to pay the debt in full. Greece can be forced into a crisis because it doesn't control the currency. It's akin to an American state.
With the above as a given, the false slogan of "kick the can" is further revealed as a lie. Dollars are literally an infinite resource for the federal government. The issue, in terms of economic governance, isn't raising funds, but ensuring the productive capacity of the country is in sync with the dollars issued. Well, and ensuring that the necessary effective demand exists to make use of that productive capacity. That's the entire issue.
The Catfood Commission's report was a work of breathtaking dishonesty. I'm sure both Simpson and Bowles are fully aware the federal government is not revenue- or debt-constrained. They've both been around long enough to have spoken with Alan Greenspan on the issue. Why is Greenspan relevant? Check his response to Paul Ryan in the video below.
7962
(11,841 posts)Like the idiot who wanted to make a trillion dollar bill for that purpose. Ever heard of inflation and deflation? Spending more than you take in is bad no matter what. Certainly the US is different than Greece, but all that does is give us more leeway in how to deal with the debt problem. If what you say is correct, then we shouldnt have to worry at all about raising taxes on the wealthy in order to raise revenue, bBecause it doesnt matter if we just keep doing what we do now. But you can only fake it for so long.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)It hasn't been done because most people think we're still on the gold standard. Seriously, Nixon took the US out of Bretton Woods almost 44 years ago and people still assume an external constraint exists. The dollar is not convertible and it floats freely (within a range, to be sure). The only constraints are federal law and that only takes a maximum of 269 votes and a signature to change. That being said, there's a difference between observing that a thing can be done and actually doing it. The fact it can be done almost certainly means it will never need to be done.
I have heard of inflation and deflation. The better question is do you actually know what they are? It's cool that you namechecked them, I'm sure they'll appreciate it, but the way you did it suggests you don't understand their relation to monetary policy. Inflation is when the amount of money in the economy is out of balance with both the productive capacity of the economy and effective demand. It is not the old monetarist fantasy of simply adding more money to the money supply. If it were, we'd be swimming in hyperinflation with the trillions that have been added since 2008. Deflation is when effective demand is decreasing in relation to the productive capacity. In other words, you have massive oversupply.
"Spending more than you take in is bad no matter what." That is the dumbest thing I've read today. The federal government has run a deficit for something like 90% of its existence. If it's so bad, why are we still here? Seriously, though, that comment was just wrong. The federal government is not revenue or debt constrained. It does not need to raise revenue through taxation nor sell bonds to spend money. If it did, the dollar could not exist. Where would people have gotten the dollars to buy those bonds or pay those taxes if the federal government hadn't just issued them from nothing? After all, dollars don't grow on trees!
We don't have to raise taxes on the wealthy to raise revenue. That doesn't mean it's not a good idea, it's just that it's a good idea but not for the reason you thought. It's a good idea, if for only this reason, because it limits the amount of damage the wealthy can do to the real economy through speculation. Every time you give those silly bastards too much money, they create a bubble and blow up the actual economy (the one that produces real goods and services, not financial "innovation" . It's a good idea because it reduces stratification in our society and limits the power that can wielded by a small group of people. It's a good idea because it directs private investment toward the real economy instead of the financial economy. It's a good idea because it helps to control supply-side inflation. Are those enough reasons to do it?
Fake what? I don't get your confusion. The measure of the economy is the real goods and services it can provide. It's not the accounting. We denominate it in dollars because it's easier, not because the dollars have some overarching purpose besides being a useful way to do business. Hell, Greenspan said it clearly in the video I linked above. The issue is not whether the money exists, but whether the real economy can provide the goods and services in exchange for that money. It's like worrying about the brand of oil in the engine instead of making sure the engine works. It's absurd.
Coming back to your comment about deficits always being bad, I have to wonder. With that blanket statement, you have asserted that balancing the budget (in a non-gold standard environment) was important than defeating fascism. You've declared that FDR's spending prior to 1937 was wrong, though I wonder what you'd think of the severe recession that happened after he did balance the budget in 1937. That one alone should give you pause. It should be clear that supporting effective demand is far more important, for a democratic government, than worrying about overhyped accounting.
cheapdate
(3,811 posts)Their options are few, and none of them good. Default or bankruptcy is an option, but not an especially good one.
I wish them the best of luck.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,263 posts)The coalition will have a comfortable majority in Greece's new parliament.
...
With nearly all of the votes counted in Sunday's poll, Syriza looks set to have 149 seats, just two short of an absolute majority. The Greek Independents are projected to have 13 seats in the 300-seat parliament.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30981950
99.94% of votes now reported, with those figures still correct: http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/v/public/index.html?lang=en#{%22cls%22:%22level%22,%22params%22:{%22level%22:%22epik%22,%22id%22:1}}
gregcrawford
(2,382 posts)... Greece was one of the European nations that were the victims of the Goldman Sachs collateralized sub-prime mortgage scam. GS knew the debts were no good when they sold them, so they insured against the losses they knew were inevitable, and then made squillions on the back end as well, bankrupting AIG in the process. But Lloyd Blankfein and the rest of those malignant scumbags are still wearing Armani instead of orange jumpsuits.
Imposed austerity has been proven to be an abject failure on every level, but the greedy banksters still insist that Greece , and to a lesser degree, Spain, adhere to the draconian strictures that are guaranteed to force both countries into bankruptcy. Their terms and conditions make it virtually impossible for the countries to ever repay the loans.
Summary execution of bankers and their enablers in government may not be a far-fetched concern at this point.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,263 posts)It was about how the Greek government could borrow money without it showing up on the balance sheet that determined whether it was sticking to the Euro rules:
Now, though, it looks like the Greek figure jugglers have been even more brazen than was previously thought. "Around 2002 in particular, various investment banks offered complex financial products with which governments could push part of their liabilities into the future," one insider recalled, adding that Mediterranean countries had snapped up such products.
Greece's debt managers agreed a huge deal with the savvy bankers of US investment bank Goldman Sachs at the start of 2002. The deal involved so-called cross-currency swaps in which government debt issued in dollars and yen was swapped for euro debt for a certain period -- to be exchanged back into the original currencies at a later date.
...
But in the Greek case the US bankers devised a special kind of swap with fictional exchange rates. That enabled Greece to receive a far higher sum than the actual euro market value of 10 billion dollars or yen. In that way Goldman Sachs secretly arranged additional credit of up to $1 billion for the Greeks.
This credit disguised as a swap didn't show up in the Greek debt statistics. Eurostat's reporting rules don't comprehensively record transactions involving financial derivatives. "The Maastricht rules can be circumvented quite legally through swaps," says a German derivatives dealer.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html
Overseas
(12,121 posts)question everything
(47,425 posts)DCBob
(24,689 posts)the reality is they are essentially broke and no one will want to loan them money to keep the lights on if they default.