HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » Editorials & Other Articles (Forum) » Some Dems float idea of p...

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:46 AM

Some Dems float idea of primary challenge for Ocasio-Cortez

Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D-N.Y.) has infuriated colleagues by aligning with a progressive outside group that’s threatening to primary entrenched Democrats. Now some of those lawmakers are turning the tables on her and are discussing recruiting a primary challenger to run against the social media sensation.

At least one House Democrat has been privately urging members of the New York delegation to recruit a local politician from the Bronx or Queens to challenge Ocasio-Cortez.

“What I have recommended to the New York delegation is that you find her a primary opponent and make her a one-term congressperson,” the Democratic lawmaker, who requested anonymity, told The Hill. “You’ve got numerous council people and state legislators who’ve been waiting 20 years for that seat. I’m sure they can find numerous people who want that seat in that district.”

The New York delegation has eyed Ocasio-Cortez with skepticism ever since last summer when the 29-year-old self-described democratic socialist shocked the political world and defeated then-Rep. Joseph Crowley (D-N.Y.) in what many thought would be a sleepy primary race. Crowley, a Queens powerbroker and affable House Democratic Caucus chairman, had been considered a possible future Speaker.


https://thehill.com/homenews/house/427364-some-dems-float-idea-of-primary-challenge-for-ocasio-cortez

Somehow I don't think these anonymous ones are going to have much luck. Unfortunately, real democracy happens when people at the local level have a real say in policies that affect them. If someone purports to represent the interests of those people, but does not actually do so, then what should the people do?

I don't know much about the 'outside group' that AOC is aligned with, but I do know people on the ground are getting pretty fed up, and in poorer districts downright revolutionary. If we want to right this giant ship called the United States, then we are going to have to have a real plan to address global warming, and to redistribute wealth around human need rather than human greed.

I write a lot and have often told conservatives to just throw the middle class a bone - give us single payer healthcare and strong old age pensions. Then, I've gone on, you can screw us for another 75 years, just like the Republicans ate away the New Deal for the last 75 years.

See, if change doesn't happen fast enough, then this is what we'll see. Now I'm sure many of you will feel downright outraged I've even put this out, but my point is this: If groups like this have arisen, then it seems the mainstream party must find a way to bring them into the tent, not fight them, because fighting them won't work. They'll just get bigger and be more of a thorn in the side.

I'm thinking we all need to take a page from AOC's book and begin a real concerted effort to educate people around these complex issues instead of relying on corporate-owned media's 8-second sound bytes. Americans ARE capable of understanding things like why the primacy of the shareholder is like a corrosive acid that eats away at the very fabric of our society. They are capable of understanding why we should repeal the giant tax cut for billionaires and corporations. They are capable of understanding why taxes aren't a bad thing unless they go for things that don't actually help the people who pay them.

Well...blast away, I guess...

53 replies, 4191 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 53 replies Author Time Post
Reply Some Dems float idea of primary challenge for Ocasio-Cortez (Original post)
PatrickforO Jan 2019 OP
David__77 Jan 2019 #1
watoos Jan 2019 #9
David__77 Jan 2019 #18
Hortensis Jan 2019 #51
democratisphere Jan 2019 #2
Gothmog Jan 2019 #26
democratisphere Jan 2019 #29
George II Jan 2019 #38
democratisphere Jan 2019 #39
TEB Jan 2019 #3
Hoyt Jan 2019 #4
zipplewrath Jan 2019 #5
George II Jan 2019 #40
zipplewrath Jan 2019 #43
George II Jan 2019 #44
George II Jan 2019 #47
zipplewrath Jan 2019 #48
lapfog_1 Jan 2019 #6
George II Jan 2019 #42
doompatrol39 Jan 2019 #7
Thekaspervote Jan 2019 #8
KPN Jan 2019 #19
George II Jan 2019 #41
KPN Jan 2019 #45
George II Jan 2019 #46
KPN Jan 2019 #49
PatrickforO Jan 2019 #52
George II Jan 2019 #53
Me. Jan 2019 #10
watoos Jan 2019 #13
Me. Jan 2019 #15
KPN Jan 2019 #17
Me. Jan 2019 #21
KPN Jan 2019 #22
Me. Jan 2019 #24
KPN Jan 2019 #28
Me. Jan 2019 #30
KPN Jan 2019 #32
Me. Jan 2019 #33
mcar Jan 2019 #36
watoos Jan 2019 #11
violetpastille Jan 2019 #12
watoos Jan 2019 #16
KPN Jan 2019 #14
FiveGoodMen Jan 2019 #20
in2herbs Jan 2019 #23
FiveGoodMen Jan 2019 #37
Gothmog Jan 2019 #25
HopeAgain Jan 2019 #27
JustAnotherGen Jan 2019 #31
Power 2 the People Jan 2019 #34
RandySF Jan 2019 #35
zonkers Jan 2019 #50

Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:57 AM

1. I can understand people opposed to her policy positions running against her.

It wouldn't be bad to have debate and discussion of the issues. I don't think she is likely to lose.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to David__77 (Reply #1)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:17 PM

9. What policy positions of hers don't you like?

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to watoos (Reply #9)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:31 PM

18. I like her.

I'm not saying that I dislike her policy positions. I think that there are others, who disagree with providing health care to all at no cost to patients or who disagree with making taxation more progressive, who may wish to oppose her reelection.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to David__77 (Reply #18)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 02:53 PM

51. Agree. Running for office per se is democracy in action.

It's inevitable that others (in that blue district likely to reflect more mainstream progressive and social justice positions) will consider running for what might turn out to be a vulnerable seat.

"Primarying" is probably not an appropriate term. After all, that's a hostile, targeted attempt to remove a specific rep, typically punishment for not going along somehow. Ocasio doesn't even have a voting record yet. Sure, there is a lot of talk about her offending a bunch of her colleagues in congress, but this doesn't sound like serious primary talk so much as grumbling, and she can stop offending them any time she wants.

My guess is most in her district prefer to wait and see how their "Wednesday morning surprise" actually performs over the next year. They have time, and in their place I'd look very poorly on outsiders trying to interfere in my district.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:57 AM

2. The very last thing Democrats need is Democrats taking out Democrats.

WTF people. There is a PROBLEM that needs to be eradicated.

Jeebus H.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democratisphere (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:43 PM

26. But the Just Democrats are planning on doing the same thing to other Democratic officeholders

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Gothmog (Reply #26)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:48 PM

29. Hell. Russia never had it so good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to democratisphere (Reply #2)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 10:52 PM

38. Isn't that what she did in 2018, not only primarying Joe Crowley but also actively campaigning....

....in the Midwest for candidates challenging other incumbent Democrats? Plus, her organization announced a couple of weeks ago that they're going to "target" Democrat Harry Cuellar in Texas next year and is looking for other incumbent Democrats to primary.

If one lives by the proverbial sword one might possibly die by the sword.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #38)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 10:57 PM

39. Sometimes the enemy comes from within as appears to be the case here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:58 AM

3. She is a breath of fresh air I like her

Although I’m not in her district we need more in congress like Alexandria ocasio cortez.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:59 AM

4. I'd be disappointed in a backroom effort to primary her. Do think she's a bit out-front right now,

but just a bit. If someone decides to run against her, OK, that's the process. But do not support effort to undermine her.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:03 PM

5. Old boys club

Boy, the Old Boys Club really don't like it when some upstart woman takes out one of their own do they?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zipplewrath (Reply #5)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 10:59 PM

40. Did an "old boys club" primary Joe Crowley or is an "old boys club" planning to primary...

...Harry Cuellar next year?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #40)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:40 AM

43. No

They didn't, and that's what got them so pissed off. It wasn't supposed to happen. No one got permission from them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zipplewrath (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:48 AM

44. "Them"? I'm a Democrat, I speak in terms of "we".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to zipplewrath (Reply #43)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 11:28 AM

47. That's pure speculation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #47)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 11:55 AM

48. Even worse

It's pure speculation based upon a Hill story using anonymous sources.
I'm sure this is the very first time that's ever happened here on DU.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:04 PM

6. we should not primary her

and split the democratic vote in her district (no matter how safely blue it might be).

OTOH, she needs to realize that she is NOW A MEMBER OF THE SYSTEM... not outside it anymore. Do not align herself with people trying to remove other Democratic members of the House or Senate... those type of operations are often funded by our real opponents, the oligarchy in the US. Jill Stein is the most recent example of such.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to lapfog_1 (Reply #6)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:16 PM

42. Funny how that wasn't a consideration last year when she primaried Joe Crowley in that District.

How do you feel about her organization already announcing that they're going to primary incumbent Democrats next year? Won't that split the Democratic vote in those districts?

She is very very close to Justice Democrats - she was one of two board members listed on their website last year, and two of Justice Democrats' co-founders are now on her staff in Washington - as chief of staff and spokesperson. That looks to be aligning herself with those trying to remove other Democratic members of the House.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:06 PM

7. She is educating voters. We need more of that.

 

Why has it taken this long for someone....anyone on our side to get this much traction on explaining to the people what that top marginal tax rates mean? Every time a tax discussion comes up I find myself screaming left and right wondering why our side isn't explaining this very simple concept much more.......simply.

She is doing that, and for that alone everyone on our side, if they are sincere about having an actual discussion about tax rates and not just paying lip service for liberal votes....should thank her.

That's not even touching the fact that her enthusiasm for the process and opening windows to that process is infectious to a lot of people, even ones who may not agree 100% with her on every issue. My very centrist parents, who would in fact be very affected by her plans absolutely love AOC.

We marginalize or demonize her at our party's peril.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:06 PM

8. Her district primary had very low voter turnout, no one thought she would win

2. She won the primary by a very slim margin. Not surprised about this

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Thekaspervote (Reply #8)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:39 PM

19. Ummmm .... she won by a 15 point margin (57.5-42.5%). In the GE she carried 78% of the

vote whereas Crowley (running as Working Families Party candidate took 6.6%. In other words, of the votes not going R or Conservative, she took 92+%.

Go ahead and primary her. Good luck with that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #19)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 11:09 PM

41. In a district with 235,000 registered Democrats she won the primary by 4,000 votes.

That's a slim margin.

Voters were confused, many not realizing that there was a primary in June AND another one in September. Most were expecting to vote in September. Turnout for the September primary was twice that in the June primary.

"...of the votes not going R or Conservative, she took 92+%"? What does that mean?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 11:18 AM

45. It means that in the GE, of the votes cast for her vs Crowley, she took 92+%.

Pretty simple. And a pretty good trouncing by her.

As for the turnout in D-14 in both the primary and the GE, it was fairly typical for NY City area districts in 2018 as well as past election years. Look it up. Slim margin? Not by a long shot. You can try to minimize it all you want, but the numbers tell the story -- a 15 point margin in the primary is not close by any stretch, especially when it involves a 10 term Congressional incumbent in a deep blue district.

So ... it's quite obvious you don't like the results or her. Too bad.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #45)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 11:26 AM

46. Well, we can go one step further then - of those who cast their votes for her she got 100%

See how that works?

You can compare her votes vs. Crowley's "WFP" votes, but remember he endorsed her and disavowed his candidacy on that line and refused to campaign, so claiming she "trounced" him rings hollow.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #46)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 12:21 PM

49. Blah, blah, blah. She trounced him in the primary. 15 points.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to George II (Reply #41)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 09:50 PM

52. So, why was that? There's a primary in June AND another in September in

an area full of struggling people in the first and second income quintiles.

See, I'm thinking that voting should become a hell of a lot easier. The problem with being in the lower socioeconomic groups is that while the law does say you have to have time to go vote, that may not be the reality for someone with a job paying minimum.

Now, this thing about primaries in June and September doesn't really pass the smell test. Why? What possible reason could the Democratic Party in that neck of the woods have for doing that in NY's 14th Congressional District?

And Crowley had a chance against her in the general but only carried 9,300 votes to her 110,000. That says something to me about how the people in the district felt about him (or maybe didn't know/hadn't heard of him).

Now, I'm not one to just sit here wondering why. I went on votesmart and looked at his actual voting record. Do you realize he abstained from voting on a Congressional resolution expressing the sense that a carbon tax would be detrimental to the US economy? He didn't even have the political courage to yell out 'NAY.' Essentially he just sat there and did nothing. He also voted yes on the 'Protect and Serve' Act of 2018, basically a superfluous law made unnecessary by numerous state and local laws.

Hmm. So what does votesmart say about his political courage? Well, he refused to take any actual positions. Endorsements? Well, he's very solidly pro choice, has decent environmental scores. So we're OK. How about labor unions? Good record there.

A look at his campaign finances tells a bit of a different story. Lots of healthcare, pharma, bank, insurance and investment donations.

I have a Dem senator like this in my state. He's OK. Recently got national attention when he gave an impassioned speech, but I've been trying to get him to DO stuff that helps people and be more vigorous for years. No go. See, for me the test of ANY politician is whether they do anything to actually help the people they represent. I mean, is my life actually better because of things this person has done? Sadly, I've got to say...meh.

I'm thinking it was a lot like that with Crowley. On the face of it, some decent endorsements, but...meh. That's probably why he lost, and why he was vulnerable.

Why is it a horrible thing if some of these people get defeated by candidates who are a bit more fiery and more committed to actually getting stuff done. Ocasio-Cortez has repeatedly been told to slow down, pay her dues, etc. but the thing is a few months ago she was waiting tables. I'd call that paying pretty steep dues. She's smart, dynamic, articulate and committed to educating people about things like the primacy of the shareholder and why that is a corrosive acid on the welfare of workers, consumers and the environment. She understands taxation a hell of a lot better than most of these Tea Party morons. Immigration, social justice, healthcare for all, a Green New Deal - these are things the American people need now.

I've often quoted MLK, when he said that justice delayed is justice denied. I'm sick to death of voting for people who pay lip service to my interests and then do nothing for me when elected. I don't think I'm the only one, either. The new Democratic party needs to be downright vigorous in passing stuff that actually benefits the people who have elected them. For example, in the House they have crafted legislation to expand Social Security. It won't pass, but they've drafted the legislation and if we had the Senate and the WH, it WOULD pass.

Harris wants Medicare for all Americans, and she's gaining steam.

Warren wants to topple the primacy of the shareholder and expand fiduciary responsibility of CEOs to include the welfare of workers, consumers and the environment.

Ocasio-Cortez wants a Green New Deal.

Those are good things that will actually help me and my family.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Reply #52)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 10:07 PM

53. It's not the doing of the Democratic Party and it didn't only happen only in the 14th District:

https://www.whec.com/news/nyse-why-does-new-york-have-two-primary-days/5066666/

https://www.amny.com/opinion/columnists/mark-chiusano/when-is-new-york-s-primary-the-answer-is-complicated-1.18107926

If you were following the politics in the 14th District you would have noticed that Crowley endorsed Cortez after he lost the primary, disavowed his candidacy on the Working Families Party, and did zero campaigning. Dissing him for a poor showing in the general election is ludicrous and insulting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:18 PM

10. Goose & Gander

If she and the justice 'dems' consider other Dems suitable targets it shouldn't be too surprising if other Dems think turnabout is fair play

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Me. (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:22 PM

13. It's Dem. 1 anonymous person.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to watoos (Reply #13)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:24 PM

15. Still Stands

One or a hundred...they'll be pushing an agenda just as the JDs are. All's fair.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Me. (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:26 PM

17. True. But on one hand, there are those who challenge the status quo as something that

hasn't served the people well, while on the other, those who seek to preserve what is current presumably because they view it as working well. People will seek change when things aren't working in their favor; it's only human nature.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #17)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:43 PM

21. Doesn't Change The Equation

If she has a qualified challenger from the district she'll have a primary and the people of the district will choose the winner. It's how she got to Congress and how it's done.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Me. (Reply #21)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:49 PM

22. Equation? Lol. There is no equation in primarying her. No conformist is going to outpace her

in that district. Good luck with that waste of time. The days of the status quo are waning.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #22)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:40 PM

24. The Inconvenient Truth

It's pretty simple. If someone qualified wants to challenge her they can and will. The voters will decide. End of story. LOL.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Me. (Reply #24)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:46 PM

28. Oh brother. "The Inconvenient Truth".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 03:08 PM

30. LOL

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Me. (Reply #30)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 03:32 PM

32. Lol.

See, I can play that way too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KPN (Reply #32)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 03:40 PM

33. Impressive

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Me. (Reply #10)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 05:32 PM

36. ...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:20 PM

11. Another article from The Hill,

 

and the main character is anonymous, that says it all for me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:22 PM

12. Here is what I don't cogitate, this quote:

“You’ve got numerous council people and state legislators who’ve been waiting 20 years for that seat. I’m sure they can find numerous people who want that seat in that district.”


So, where were they? She ran and was elected.
Where then were the numerous people who have been waiting 20 years?


I don't get it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to violetpastille (Reply #12)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:25 PM

16. AOC has what Al Franken had,

 

the ability to change the right wing narrative. Of course they want to take her out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:22 PM

14. Thank you for this excellent post PforO. I agree 100%.

Many of us (Democrats, and former Democrats, now I's or G's) have actually been waiting at least a couple of decades for people like AOC, Bernie and Elizabeth Warren to appear on the scene and effectively challenge the status quo. My sense is there are more who welcome than have disdain for these non-conformists who disturb the existing balance. But it's also human nature that some people will seek preservation of the status quo when it already serves them well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 12:40 PM

20. !?!?!!?!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:36 PM

23. I like AOC and want more members of Congress to openly support her but I disagree with your comment

that Americans are capable of understanding things. Maybe I'm too jaded but I have found that I can't dumb down to their level some of the conversations I have with others. These people are not capable of understanding issues and are not willing to listen or educate themselves about an issue. My hope for the future is in our youth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to in2herbs (Reply #23)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 06:05 PM

37. "My hope for the future is in our youth"

I grew up in the 60s/70s and believed the same thing.

But the youth of the time morphed into yuppies.

Anyway, the next generation is raised by the last one. And they're generally no better.

Think: College Republicans, age of Richard Spencer, etc.

Demographics has never saved us in the past.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:42 PM

25. K&R

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 02:45 PM

27. Boy The Hill really hates AOC

Or are they scared of her? And if the article is true, bring it on, I would bet on AOC right now.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 03:24 PM

31. Way too early for this

I'm neutral on A O-C but - this seems a bit heavy handed for someone who's only been on the job for less than a month.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 03:47 PM

34. K&R

Well said, Patrick.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Tue Jan 29, 2019, 03:52 PM

35. AOC is playing in the majors now and she knows it

She’ll be fine

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to PatrickforO (Original post)

Wed Jan 30, 2019, 02:33 PM

50. Good luck with that one.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread