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Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:12 PM

Something went terribly wrong with Trump's defense

Just over a week before the start of his second impeachment trial, former President Donald Trump's entire legal team has walked away. What already promised to be an unpredictable and unprecedented show on the Senate floor just got even messier, as it appears that Trump will insist on repeating the same dangerous lie that sparked the Capitol riot -- that the election was stolen from him -- and led to his (second) impeachment in the first place.

Here's what we know. The mass resignations of all five of Trump's lawyers show us something has gone terribly wrong on the defense team. And these lawyers were no hacks -- several of them are Justice Department alums, and the (former) lead attorney, Butch Bowers, was a government ethics specialist. They would not abandon a client this close to trial without darn good reason.

Any defense attorney holds a broad obligation to represent his or her client zealously. That's a crucial part of our adversarial justice system. But there are limits on what a defense attorney can argue. For example, per the American Bar Association, it would be unethical for any attorney to raise an argument "that he knows to be false." The "rigged election" narrative certainly fits that description.

It's telling that the source of the falling-out between Trump and his (former) lawyers was his insistence that they raise the "stolen election" defense. Trump's defenders certainly could have argued in good faith and within ethical boundaries that it is unconstitutional to hold an impeachment trial for a former president, or that Trump's actions were protected political speech under the First Amendment. I disagree with both of these arguments on the merits, but Trump and his attorneys certainly would have been within their rights to make these claims before the Senate. But the "stolen election" argument crosses a line.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/something-went-terribly-wrong-with-trumps-defense-opinion/ar-BB1dgm3V?li=BBnb7Kz

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Arrow 56 replies Author Time Post
Reply Something went terribly wrong with Trump's defense (Original post)
Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Jan 2021 OP
onecaliberal Jan 2021 #1
Skittles Jan 2021 #3
onecaliberal Jan 2021 #6
OMGWTF Jan 2021 #15
calimary Jan 2021 #27
onecaliberal Jan 2021 #34
dchill Jan 2021 #8
COL Mustard Jan 2021 #45
Timewas Jan 2021 #2
Tiger8 Jan 2021 #39
louis-t Feb 2021 #54
brush Jan 2021 #4
mn9driver Jan 2021 #9
LiberalArkie Jan 2021 #16
Nitram Jan 2021 #25
LiberalArkie Jan 2021 #26
calimary Jan 2021 #28
LiberalArkie Jan 2021 #33
central scrutinizer Jan 2021 #10
mdbl Jan 2021 #18
Stuart G Jan 2021 #5
magicarpet Jan 2021 #7
yellowdogintexas Jan 2021 #11
Stuart G Jan 2021 #12
ShazzieB Jan 2021 #31
electric_blue68 Feb 2021 #52
Loge23 Jan 2021 #13
Thekaspervote Jan 2021 #19
leanforward Jan 2021 #14
louis-t Jan 2021 #17
mdbl Jan 2021 #29
Bmoboy Jan 2021 #20
Mr.Bill Jan 2021 #24
DENVERPOPS Jan 2021 #36
Mr.Bill Jan 2021 #38
DENVERPOPS Jan 2021 #48
Mr.Bill Jan 2021 #49
Walleye Jan 2021 #42
KS Toronado Jan 2021 #21
Mr.Bill Jan 2021 #22
DENVERPOPS Jan 2021 #37
yonder Jan 2021 #43
Jon King Jan 2021 #23
calimary Jan 2021 #51
erronis Jan 2021 #30
Aussie105 Jan 2021 #32
PatrickforO Jan 2021 #35
The Animator Jan 2021 #40
bucolic_frolic Jan 2021 #41
C Moon Jan 2021 #44
SWBTATTReg Jan 2021 #46
mgardener Jan 2021 #47
Blue Owl Jan 2021 #50
chriscan64 Feb 2021 #53
marble falls Feb 2021 #55
tclambert Feb 2021 #56

Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:18 PM

1. Trumps wants the lawyers to say the election was stolen from him.

No one will do this. Even noun,verb, 9-11 knows better.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:24 PM

3. I'm hoping he does find cult lawyers who will do just that

will make repukes look even more ridiculous when they are, er, "forced" to buy it

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Response to Skittles (Reply #3)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:30 PM

6. I think they can be sanctioned or lose their license.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #6)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:07 PM

15. Yes. Lawyers can lie all day long, but they can't do that in a courtroom.

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Response to OMGWTF (Reply #15)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:42 PM

27. Even Rudy G knew not to make that mistake.

He NEVER used the "election fraud" argument in court. Only out on the sidewalk where all the cameras and microphones were.

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Response to calimary (Reply #27)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:03 PM

34. Exactly. Just to whip up the crazy fucks to do it for them.

I donít mnownhowntheybthougjtnthisnwas going to end but the more I hear it sounds like we got really fucking lucky.

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Response to onecaliberal (Reply #1)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:32 PM

8. No one? I think Lin Wood and Sidney Powell would...

...if they could be let out if the unit, that is.

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Response to dchill (Reply #8)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:57 PM

45. Even They Wouldn't Do It Pro Bono

And any lawyer who works for He Whose Name Must Never Be Mentioned is going to work for free...intentionally or not.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:21 PM

2. Maybe

They wanted him to come up with a decent retainer and he couldn't/wouldn't along with trying to run the show...I would no work for him to start with and anyone that would should damn sure get their money up front

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Response to Timewas (Reply #2)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:30 PM

39. THIS - Because we know Trump

It sends a bad signal to future clients and makes them look stupid.

And nobody likes to look stupid, especially a lawyer, and DOUBLE especially by a loser like Trump.

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Response to Timewas (Reply #2)

Mon Feb 1, 2021, 12:52 PM

54. Every attorney he has ever hired knows

He doesn't pay and he doesn't listen.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:25 PM

4. trump really is crazy. Still insisting that election was stolen shows that he's completely over...

the edge into cray cray world.

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Response to brush (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:34 PM

9. Exactly. He really believes it.

Discussing Trumpís mental illness/personality disorders isnít hyperbole; it is simply fact. The guy is genuinely nuts.

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Response to mn9driver (Reply #9)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:10 PM

16. Before he ran for office his crazy talk wasn't recorded. I think it is easy for an insane person

to think they are not. But when every were the person looks, listens, watches he sees someone who looks to be batshit crazy and looks and sounds like himself. It has to take a toll. He has to be hoping that someone can get him out of the situation, but then he has always had someone to get him out of his predicaments.

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Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #16)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:35 PM

25. So, who's batshit crazier: Trump or his supporters?

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Response to Nitram (Reply #25)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:38 PM

26. I would guess the craziness is self-replicating. Maybe one of those virus things.

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Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #26)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:47 PM

28. The key to remember with these folks: NOBODY wants to admit they were wrong.

OR, worse, that they've been ROYALLY HAD. (At the end of a freakin' fork!)

NOBODY wants to admit that. And so many of these idiots have given any objective reasoning over to the mirror Pox Noise and OAN and Newsmax and hate radio help to hold up - to keep everybody believing the same bullshit. Because if they really BELIEEEEEEEEEEEEEVE it, many of 'em can be convinced or motivated to act on it. Which is what we all saw on January 6th.

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Response to calimary (Reply #28)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:58 PM

33. OH I know that. They are the same ones who will drink a case of beer, drive their truck fast

down a 1 1/2 lane forest road and crash into a gulley off the side of the road and blame the accident on an oncoming car with brights on. Anything but reality.

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Response to brush (Reply #4)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:35 PM

10. Or wants to keep the grift spigot flowing

Time to hit the rubes for another installment. Worked to the tune of hundreds of millions last time.

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Response to central scrutinizer (Reply #10)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:16 PM

18. digusting isn't it?

I always thought fraud was against the law.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:28 PM

5. Thanks for posting this.It explains a whole lot. Please read entire article. K & R

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:31 PM

7. Boisterous, bloviating buffoon.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:50 PM

11. I restocked our popcorn supply for the trial

I think we are going to need it

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Response to yellowdogintexas (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:53 PM

12. Me Too

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Response to yellowdogintexas (Reply #11)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:51 PM

31. Oh, we will need huge amounts of popcorn! 🍿

We will need ALL the popcorn!

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Response to ShazzieB (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 1, 2021, 02:47 AM

52. Bwah! 👏👏👏👏👏😂😂😂

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 03:55 PM

13. He doesn't need a defense

He's stone cold guilty - anyone with half a brain can see that.
Fortunately for him, the GOP Senate is filled with people with no brains, so he'll walk.
Frankly I don't understand all the hubbub about losing his legal team - he doesn't need one, the GOP will never convict him.
The trial is necessary of course at least to reinforce the charges against him, so I don't consider the whole thing a waste of time; but it's clear that this trial is the infamous Fifth Avenue shooting come to reality. In this case, he can incite his lunatics into murdering a police officer and get away with it - and he will.

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Response to Loge23 (Reply #13)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:21 PM

19. ☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:01 PM

14. Experienced Lawyers

I can buy into both of the above. There is too much anecdotal information out there where he has stiffed people of what's owed. Likewise, the 50 states and territories have certified results.

This was an honest and fair election. The citizen voters just turned out in far greater numbers than their plans. They don't understand, or chose not to understand, EVERY ballot mailed went to a registered voter. Ballots don't go out as box stuffers. I have worked as a poll worker in Virginia and Tennessee, and I RESENT even a hint of impropriety.

All that is going on, is what I call "the tyranny of the minority". They lost. Similar to the blessed 60 vote rule for legislation, etc.

I want to mention that in the early days, you had to own property to vote. Now, we have the electoral college? Is the electoral college just a sophisticated extension of property ownership. When did senators start being elected by popular vote? Just about 100 years ago.



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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:12 PM

17. As any attorney he has hired for the last 30 years knows

he doesn't pay and he doesn't listen.

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Response to louis-t (Reply #17)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:48 PM

29. so true, makes for a sh%$$y client

a lose lose proposition.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:22 PM

20. this way he can skip the trial all together

Now he has an excuse to request a postponement, building even more pressure on Republicans, plus raising more money.

Or he can say that "it's a hoax" (where have I heard that before?) and just not show up.

Then, even if he is convicted he can ignore the results of "the hoax."

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Response to Bmoboy (Reply #20)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:31 PM

24. Yes, even if he is convicted

and prohibited from running for office, He will continue to campaign for president in 2024. And his fans will promptly send him hundreds of millions of dollars. They are that stupid.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:09 PM

36. Mr. Bill

Don't forget his spawn who will be jet setting around the world with the protection of the Secret Service, grifting the massive amounts of U.S. Intelligence to the highest bidder......
The U.S. Treasury Department, The IRS, and the DOJ should set up a sting, catch Jared and Ivanka selling the Top Secret stuff and send them to Leavenworth for Treason.............

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #36)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:24 PM

38. The president's children do not get Secret Service protection

if they are 16 year old or over. That's why they are shopping for housing in secure gated communities.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_Presidents_Act#:~:text=All%20living%20former%20presidents%20and,become%2016%20years%20of%20age%22.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #38)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 07:47 PM

48. Not sure

I think I remembered reading that Trump requested it for all of them and some other people for a six month period after he left the whitehouse.......

On edit, here you go: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-extended-secret-service-protection-for-13-members-of-his-family-as-he-left-office/2021/01/20/31ef3e9e-5b3c-11eb-b8bd-ee36b1cd18bf_story.htmlNee

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #48)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 07:55 PM

49. You are correct. I looked it up.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #24)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:50 PM

42. Yep. He will campaign and hold rallies no matter what

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:24 PM

21. donnie doTURD believes the "stolen election" argument doesn't cross any lines

Because in his small IQ stable genius head, he actually believes he's above the law. "Everybody's saying I had
the biggest coup attempt ever, there'll never be another one as fruitful as mine, I deserve a MEDAL"
I'll stop ranting before I type a history book.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:26 PM

22. When they went to Mar-a-Laga to meet with him

he probably charged them $4,500 a night for their rooms.

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Response to Mr.Bill (Reply #22)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:12 PM

37. Actually

Trump decided his apartments were to only be rented by the month, even if they were just needed for a day or two.
He imposed that on the Secret Service for the rooms they rented for their agents, but were only there for a few days a month.
The monthly rate was ludicrous......

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Response to DENVERPOPS (Reply #37)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:51 PM

43. Wait, I thought there was a Palm Beach restriction

preventing anyone, including tRump, from staying at Mal-a-Lardo for a stay of longer than 7 days at a time. How could they be legally contracting rooms in violation of that time restriction? For a month?

I know, I know, not that that would keep tRump from doing what he wants anyway (as he apparently is doing now) but it seems that would've raised a ruckus with the government contracting people in the beginning.

Now would be a good time for the Feds to do what tRump does and walk away from any obligation that remains and say see you in court.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:31 PM

23. These lawyers have to continue their careers after this....

Simple self interest calculation. The MAGA voters will never be their future clients. There is no long term benefit to them from defending Trump.

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Response to Jon King (Reply #23)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 09:21 PM

51. And nobody wants bad publicity, either.

Cuz they're gonna have to keep buying food and making mortgage payments and car payments and VISA card payments and keep-the-kids-in-a-good-private-school payments. So life is gonna go on AFTER trump. And they all know it.

You can't do much lawyering if your law license gets yanked. And they know they still have to eat AND manage all that other payment-obligation stuff LONG after trump "fades to black".

He is a VERY poor risk.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:50 PM

30. Good post on EmptyWheel. Apparently

https://www.emptywheel.net/2021/01/31/donnie-the-wimp-and-his-impeachment-coffin

Apparently,
Lol, for the uninitiated, that means Trump never paid a dime as to a retainer, and never signed a fee agreement. That not only is inappropriate, in most jurisdictions it is, in and of itself, unethical. Even when the lawyer is agreeing to do work pro bono, there is a retainer agreement. Always, because real lawyers donít blithely hang their asses out on the line without specified parameters. That is just how it is.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 04:57 PM

32. What next?

Is Trump building an insanity defense?

Seems like it, he promised himself as the All Powerful Master of the Universe (as if!) that he would win a second term, to lay the groundwork for a third term, to be followed by infinite terms as destroyer of Democracy and creator of the Trump dynasty of hereditary monarchy, US style.

Trump's problem here is no one is buying into it. Except maybe the most diehard of the Demented Deplorables.

Trump's downfall is twofold, inability to accept reality, and needing to run the show. Whatever the show currently, he needs to be the smartest person in the room and be in charge.

Those have always been his problems, from an early age.

One bridge too far for most. Pity that didn't happen years ago.

History books will have the Trump presidency as a sealed section, with a 'do not open' warning.

EDIT: The impeachment hearing is about Trump inciting his followers to storm the Capitol Building in a coup to overthrow the government.
It has nothing to do with the proven validity on the election. Trump can bleat on about that all he likes, but it just isn't relevant. Or justification.

Got to wonder though. Trump promised to lead them on the march to the Capitol building. He didn't. And no one noticed?

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:05 PM

35. Trump wants to do the same thing Hitler did at his trial after the

1923 Beer Hall Putsch.

Every time the prosecution brought up what Hitler actually DID during the putsch, Hitler pivoted and talked about how victory in the first world war had been stolen from Germany, and how the Nazi party ideology with rectify that.

Same thing. Trumpy is a huge Hitler fan - same gestures, same emotional hooks in speeches, same love of rallies. Trumpy is lovin' him some Hitler.

The lawyers just can't go with that because they would lose their licenses.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:37 PM

40. Get him to testify, under oath before congress

Let him lie his ass off.
Throw the book at him for lying to Congress while under oath...

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:37 PM

41. He's so stupid. He could save a lot of money and just offer no defense.

The outcome will be the same. QOP will acquit him, 7 GOP will vote to convict. End of story.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 05:57 PM

44. He won't need a defense team. The GOP will never

vote to impeach him.
They live all the crap he did to our country and want more of the same.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 06:00 PM

46. Perhaps sucking the oxygen out of the room and don't allow trump any airtime would be the best

thing to do here. He'll have his own punishment to live out the rest of his life, being tagged as the worse president ever, being the most incompetent president ever, losing all of his money and/or in debt up to his eyeballs, and his mouth is such a gutter that no one can help not want to deal w/ him. He's a boring, fat, incompetent and lazy nobody.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 06:12 PM

47. There are other "fine" lawyers

Lin Wood, Sidney Powell and Tiffany Trump are available.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Sun Jan 31, 2021, 08:09 PM

50. K&R

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Mon Feb 1, 2021, 07:35 AM

53. The first impeachment seems so quaint now.

Remember how republicans were going to go with "It was wrong but not impeachable"? Trump's pathology would not let him accept acquittal on these terms. "No, they have to say I did nothing wrong!" This time they want to let him slide on nothing but the fact that he is already out of office, no claims of not doing something impeachable much less of doing nothing wrong. Enter Trump's pathology again, this time wanting to prove his "innocence" by arguing that the election was stolen.

He will most likely be acquitted anyway, but will probably try this "I did nothing wrong" strategy in his tax fraud cases, but the juries in those trials won't be filled by those whose jobs depend on a not guilty verdict.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Mon Feb 1, 2021, 04:53 PM

55. It's hard to defend someone who defends himself by throwing motive at the DA's feet.

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Response to Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin (Original post)

Mon Feb 1, 2021, 11:45 PM

56. I assumed it was because they asked for a retainer up front

and Trump, aghast, said, "What? You want ME to pay YOU?"

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